All purpose Panzer General thread

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
As for individuals, let your conscience be your guide, but its understandable that the owners here would forbid links.

As far as I am concerned I have bought all the 5 stars serie games (even the infamous Star General) but the French versions of the older games (that includes PG2) are difficult to upgrade because SSI's patch are not working with the French versions. I have thus downloaded the available US versions so that I can play them patched and eventually modded.

[BeBro]

LOTM: thx for the clarification, didn't know this.

BTW, just some questions to PGI: I started with the "1939" campaign, and when I reached a decisive victory in the Moscow scenario the Soviet Union surrendered, and the next scn will be the invasion of the UK in 1943. Does this mean the campaign has much less scns now? I mean - would I get more scns to play in Russia if I only had a marginal victory?

Also, let's say I play this campaign from 1939 to 1945 - I hope the campaigns starting later offer different scenarios?

[ErikM]

BV in Moscow => Sealion 43 (if you didn't do Sealion 40) => Washington.
If you don't get a BV in Moscow then iirc you get a choice between campaining in North Africa or continuing the Soviet campaign (Sevastopol/Stalingrad/Moscow 42).

41 campaign still allows you to end in Washington but it is a bit harder since you have less time to build up experience and your initial army composition is rather crappy.

43 campaign still lets you to win in Russia but you will only get defensive scenarios against western Allies.

[BeBro]

Ah thx I have saved the Moscow scn at the beginning, maybe I'll try those other paths by getting only a marginal victory.....

[lord of the mark]

well playing PG2 i just lost at Arracourt (as US)

I didnt prepare to deal adequately with the Panzer G's and i manage to lose a fighter. Will try again, this time more carefully.

[CerberusIV]

PG2 - I picked up a comment on one of the sites that if you take tactical victories at Volokolamsk and Klin (Blitz campaign) you actually get sent to the Defending the Reich campaign rather than Windsor 43 or Savannah. Can anyone confirm this?

If so, I am inclined to try it although DTR will be a lot easier with a large and experienced core army to start.

[Garth Vader]

That might be cool. I'll have to remember to try it.

I am playing Peoples General now though, which I was able to download from the site that's not to be named. It's pretty good.

[ErikM]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
PG2 - I picked up a comment on one of the sites that if you take tactical victories at Volokolamsk and Klin (Blitz campaign) you actually get sent to the Defending the Reich campaign rather than Windsor 43 or Savannah. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes, although I don't remember how bad you have to screw up at Klin. I think you'll need a minor victory at Klin.

[BeBro]

PGI again: Won Sealion'43, but only with a marginal victory. However, I maneged to hold my forces together, without big losses, so the next two defensive scns in Italy and the Normandy were a piece of cake. Funnym since I elimenated all Allied forces (except some ships) ca. 10 turns before these scns were over, so I had to press only "end turn" then again and again

I'm now in the Ardennes.

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by BeBro

I'm now in the Ardennes.

This is, IIRC, the key scenario in this campaign. If you get a decisive victory here then you stop the allies and the campaign is over. If not they will go all the way to Berlin.

The target is to take Brussels. You only have a limited number of turns to do so before allied reinforcements arrive and the big problem is resupplying your units due to the bad weather.

It is quite some time since I did this one but I think the best tactic is to divide your forces into small groups attacking along 2 or 3 axes. You need 2 groups on each axis of attack and they should take the objectives along that road alternately - so one group takes an objective and then resupplies (you get more supplies in city hexes) whilst the other group takes the next objective and so on.

About 2/3 of the way through the battle substantial allied reinforcements appear around Brussels and your chance of a decisive victory is gone.

I found it difficult if not done absolutely right so good luck!

[BeBro]

Originally posted by CerberusIV


This is, IIRC, the key scenario in this campaign. If you get a decisive victory here then you stop the allies and the campaign is over. If not they will go all the way to Berlin.

The target is to take Brussels. You only have a limited number of turns to do so before allied reinforcements arrive and the big problem is resupplying your units due to the bad weather.

It is quite some time since I did this one but I think the best tactic is to divide your forces into small groups attacking along 2 or 3 axes. You need 2 groups on each axis of attack and they should take the objectives along that road alternately - so one group takes an objective and then resupplies (you get more supplies in city hexes) whilst the other group takes the next objective and so on.

About 2/3 of the way through the battle substantial allied reinforcements appear around Brussels and your chance of a decisive victory is gone.

I found it difficult if not done absolutely right so good luck!

I just won it decisively - as you said the campaign is over now.

But it was quite easy. I don't want to bragg - maybe it is because I played Allied General (which I find generally much more difficult) over and over.

I did as you said (several groups attacking along 3 paths). I think the key is to keep your units at the highest possible overstrength number until the end of each scn, then you can attack devastately at the beginning of the new scn. I had 3 Tiger I, 2 Tiger II, 2 Panther G at strength 15, and some tanks and tank destroyers between strenght 12 and 14, also 3 Pioniere and 2 Fallschirmjaeger (paras) at 15.

I constantly built up a high quality air force during the campaign too, in the end I had 3 FW190D9 fighters, 2 Me410 strike craft and 2 level bombers all at strengh 15 plus some weaker fighters. Level bombers are IMO a must here in PG, since they are quite effective against British warships that would be a pain in scns like Sealion or Malta.

When deploying I always place my recon units (had three in the Ardennes) first, then tanks and infantry around them or along river sides and then the ari in range to bombard those enemy units spotted by the recons. The key is to break through the intial frontlines quickly which is no problem since the overstrenghted units can often kill a complete enemy unit in one turn. One problem is that due to the bad weather the recon units do not "see" that far, but as long as you are careful moving your forces within the "cleared" area it is ok.

Bastogne was the only point which needed heavier fighting (have enough ari there) since the US paras there were well entrenched. In most of the other cities are only one infantry or anti tank gun. The objective west of Bastogne and finally Brussels I took with my Fallschirmjaeger, however, one has to coordinate their attacks so that the spearheads of your tank forces arrive to support them. My two level bombers pounded those objectives (after the weather turned) before the Fallschirmjaeger attacked to reduce the entrenchment level of the enemy there. I always had the fighters as escort, so whenever there was good weather they wiped out Allied fighters and strike craft quickly.

In the end one turn before my tanks arrived at Brussels my recon forces spotted the large Allied forces south of the city. But then I already had the Fallschirmjaeger close to Brussels and my entire airforce over them. So the bombers continued the bombardment, the rest attacked this huge formation, wiped out all remaining Allied fighters and two heavy guns. In the next turn their remaining units (still ca. 20 units) started moving towards Brussels, but too late - the arriving Tigers held them off, and Fallschirmjaeger and two Panthers took the city.

[Tamerlin]

Just out of curiosity:

Are you all playing the various 5 star series games with the fog of war or without it in order to have a paperboard wargame feeling?

As a paperboard wargamer I have never feeled at ease with the fog of war in PC wargames but I think I would feel "guilty", as if I were cheating, if I turned it off.

[BeBro]

I remember when I bought Allied General years ago I played some scns without the FOW, but changed then quickly because it is more fun with a highler element of surprise.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by BeBro
I remember when I bought Allied General years ago I played some scns without the FOW, but changed then quickly because it is more fun with a highler element of surprise.

I agree with you I played two days ago the Ardennes scenario in PG1 and was caught by surprise by an allied armored counter offensive against a two hex city in the southern part of the map that was lightly defended by two infrantry and one artillery units.

But IMO the fog of war kind of removes a strategical element in the game. For example, my units were organized in Kampfgruppe and the computer AI used the hexes seperating my combat groups to infiltrate an artillery unit and catch some cities behind my lines, a tactic I find a bit dubious.

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
But IMO the fog of war kind of removes a strategical element in the game. For example, my units were organized in Kampfgruppe and the computer AI used the hexes seperating my combat groups to infiltrate an artillery unit and catch some cities behind my lines, a tactic I find a bit dubious.

Yeah, that can be annoying. Same happened when I played the Ardennes scn, with two or three Allied anti-tank guns from smaller cities I ignored. They tried to get back some cities I left undefended , but I had some infantry units left to hunt them down. Also in the turns with bad weather I use my planes as recon force - when they fly over an area all the units in the flight path are revealed. Just make sure they do not end the flight close to enemy cities, esp. objectives or airfields (there might be AA guns or enemy fighters), and keep them escorted, and close enough to support/protect your ground forces.

[ErikM]

Originally posted by BeBro
I just won it decisively - as you said the campaign is over now.

Congratulations
Now, if you want a bit more of a challenge:
Torch and Cobra as Germans
Kharkov and Kursk as Russians.
Have fun!

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by ErikM

Congratulations
Now, if you want a bit more of a challenge:
Torch and Cobra as Germans
Kharkov and Kursk as Russians.
Have fun!

I did once play through all 40 odd Allied General scenarios as the Germans and managed to win them all. Most are fairly easy due to the way victory is decided. The hardest is Lake Balaton where it is tough to hold off the Russians from the objectives they need. Cobra was quite hard IIRC but Torch wasn't.

[ErikM]

I'm talking about PG1 scenarios, though

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by ErikM
I'm talking about PG1 scenarios, though

I realise that. It is quite interesting to compare equivalent scenarios from PG1 and AG because they haven't simply repeated them. The units and sometimes the maps aren't the same.

I'm now playing through the British campaign in AG, currently at Sicily. Either I'm not as good as I used to be or the AI is smarter because some of the scenarios have been hard to do in the turns allowed.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


I agree with you I played two days ago the Ardennes scenario in PG1 and was caught by surprise by an allied armored counter offensive against a two hex city in the southern part of the map that was lightly defended by two infrantry and one artillery units.

But IMO the fog of war kind of removes a strategical element in the game. For example, my units were organized in Kampfgruppe and the computer AI used the hexes seperating my combat groups to infiltrate an artillery unit and catch some cities behind my lines, a tactic I find a bit dubious.

well yeah there are cheesey things that you or the AI can do, but generally FOW adds strategic elements. In PG2 it means i have to decide whether to move towards a strategic location, VH, town or bridge, straight on, or recon it first. I can use a recon unit, or an air unit like a fighter, or i can move an armoured unit close enough to see but 2 or more hexes away. OTOH if i dont have recon or fighters handy, and need to move fast, i can just go in. Also if i dont know whats there I have to be careful how I attack. Theres an infantry unit in the town - should i send a bomber in to soften it? what if theyre an AA unit right behind? How urgent is it to take the town fast, can i afford to wait to be more fully informed?

re board games - IIRC AH's 1914 tried to implement FOW by having players make "moves" on paper, and only put "located units" on the board, all to be coordinated by a 3rd player/referee. Doubt many people actually did that. But Board game designers always knew FOW was more realistic, and was the real reason for the existence of some historic units, but was simply too hard to implement before PC's.

[lord of the mark]

BTW, it seems that all the scenarios in PG2 campaisgns are designed for the human player to be playing offense, and the computer to be playing defense. I presume this was done to make it easier for the AI, so they just had to focus on designing an AI good at defense.

Is my impression right, and is this true for all the 5 star games?

[DrSpike]

I know nothing about PG2 but in general the AI sucks at offence more than defence, so it seems a logical choice to make.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Is my impression right, and is this true for all the 5 star games?

This is more or less the case with all the incarnations of the 5 stars serie games. But whatever the PC game, the AI handles better defensive strategies than offensive ones.

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
BTW, it seems that all the scenarios in PG2 campaisgns are designed for the human player to be playing offense, and the computer to be playing defense. I presume this was done to make it easier for the AI, so they just had to focus on designing an AI good at defense.

Is my impression right, and is this true for all the 5 star games?

I have played PG1, AG and PG2 and the AI has trouble on offense in all of them. It is particularly noticeable in AG in the early Russian and North African campaign scenarios.

The real problem is the AI rarely mounts effective co-ordinated attacks with multiple units. The human player can see how to do that several turns ahead but getting the AI to do that seems very difficult.

[lord of the mark]

The AI can be tough on defense though.

I played Dessau, and wasnt at all prepared for the advanced (jet?) aircraft. Next time i must use AA more effectively, instead of relying on fighters.

[BeBro]

I played a bit in the other campaigns of PGI now, and these are generally a bit more challenging than the '39 campaign.

I agree the defensive scns are quite easy, especially when you wait behind the riverlines and kill the enemy when it tries to cross the river with its units. In that way you can defend against overwhelming attacks quite easily.

One scn I particularly liked was Kursk, since here you have to attack against a heavily fortified enemy in the north east and south east of the crescent-like front, but just some turns after the scn started the Russians counter-attack in the west, where you only have weak forces.

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
The AI can be tough on defense though.

I played Dessau, and wasnt at all prepared for the advanced (jet?) aircraft. Next time i must use AA more effectively, instead of relying on fighters.

That's why I usually drag a few AD units along. They won't destroy enemy aircraft, their purpose is to take the sting out of air attacks on your ground units and to weaken the enemy fighters for your fighters to finish off.

Often the cost of replacements for expensive artillery that you save by AD weakening the enemy air attacks can, over a few battles, more than make up the cost of the AD units to start with. Certainly when you add in the likely reduced losses for your own fighters and the benefits of getting air superiority AD units are well worthwhile.

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by BeBro
I played a bit in the other campaigns of PGI now, and these are generally a bit more challenging than the '39 campaign.

I agree the defensive scns are quite easy, especially when you wait behind the riverlines and kill the enemy when it tries to cross the river with its units. In that way you can defend against overwhelming attacks quite easily.

I haven't played PG1 enough to have gone through all the scenarios. I do remember Kasserine being tough. I don't think it features in any of the campaigns but is playable as a single scenario. When I tried it the allied forces were overwhelming, particularly in the air. Even Flak 18 AD units didn't help as they simply ran out of ammunition before the allies ran out of planes.

Fighting off the allied invasion of Southern France was quite interesting. Not so hard but you have to withdraw inland out of reach of the allied warships, then counterattack and drive the allies back. If you can wear down the allied air units then even just a couple of JU188 level bombers will deal with the allied navy. Worth playing IMO.

[ErikM]

There is no Kasserine in PG1. You are probably thinking about Torch. It is good. The toughest scenario for Germans (iirc) is Cobra (Allies breakout from Normandy).

Also, Kharkov, Kursk, and Moscow-43 scenarios in PG1 are very tough for Russians. Basically, in '43 Germans upgrade to new equipment (Tigers, Panthers, Ferdinands) while Russians are still stuck with T34/76, which just does not cause enough damage.

[lord of the mark]

well i finally started a campaign on "fair" terms - IE 100% prestige. Started PG2 Soviet campaign, won victory in Saturn on the Chir.

1. Intro text mentions marx and lenin, army of workers and peasants, etc. I really doubt Soviet officers of the time used that rhetoric when giving battle instructions. Detracts a bit from the atmosphere.

2. What the heck do they mean by "Saturn"? The USSR eating its children??? Makes no sense.