All purpose Panzer General thread

[ErikM]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Intro text mentions marx and lenin, army of workers and peasants, etc. I really doubt Soviet officers of the time used that rhetoric when giving battle instructions. Detracts a bit from the atmosphere.

The game was designed with Western audiences in mind. I guess designers thought that's how Soviet propaganda should look like to ring a bell with their consumers.

2. What the heck do they mean by "Saturn"? The USSR eating its children??? Makes no sense.

It was the official code name of the operation. Some Soviet operations in '42 were code-named after planets. There was also "Mars" and "Uranus".

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by ErikM


The game was designed with Western audiences in mind. I guess designers thought that's how Soviet propaganda should look like to ring a bell with their consumers.

yeah, thats what i figured. Guess i'll have to play a more grognard game to avoid stuff like that.

It was the official code name of the operation. Some Soviet operations in '42 were code-named after planets. There was also "Mars" and "Uranus".

Didnt know that. Thanks for the info.

[Garth Vader]

The older general games handled artillery differently right?

I seem to remember in PG1 that you have to fire, then move right away.

In AG and I think Pac Gen you had to fire first, but then could move later in the turn.

Or was that just PG2 that you could do that? Now I am playing Peoples Gen and there you can move then fire or any combo you want.

Does anybody remember how that evolved?

I know PG2 introduced the overrun, which I would really miss if I played the older ones again.

[GePap]

I liked the People's General engine, and the game itself was good, though not that hard-I had fun making scenerios though, like the modern version of Stalingrad, as Germnas forces tried to break through Russian forces defending Volgograd...

As for AG, I generally played as the Russians-the final assault on Berlin is tough given all the AAA guns.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Garth Vader
The older general games handled artillery differently right?

I seem to remember in PG1 that you have to fire, then move right away.

In AG and I think Pac Gen you had to fire first, but then could move later in the turn.

Or was that just PG2 that you could do that? Now I am playing Peoples Gen and there you can move then fire or any combo you want.

Does anybody remember how that evolved?

I know PG2 introduced the overrun, which I would really miss if I played the older ones again.

I know in PG2 artillery fires, and can then move at any subsequent time. So you can fire at say an entrenched infantry unit in a town, let a tank or infantry finish it off, then move your artillery into or through the town.

[Tamerlin]

Saturn is the equivalent of Cronos in the Greek mythology. In the Roman mythology Saturn protected the sowings and represented the golden age before the coming of the Olympian gods.

Son of Ouranos and Gaia (the sky and the earth), Cronos fought against his own father in order to free his brothers. Afraid that his own sons act the same way he devoured them just after their birth.

Fortunately, Zeus escaped and with the help of his mother Rhea freed all his brothers previously swallowed by Saturn. The two generations fought each others until Cronos was forever sent to Hades' kingdom.

Saturn thus represents an end (the expected fall of the Sixth Army and then of the Third Reich) and a beginning (the triumph of the communism), he represents the sequence of reigns as well as seasons.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by GePap
I liked the People's General engine, and the game itself was good, though not that hard-I had fun making scenerios though, like the modern version of Stalingrad, as Germnas forces tried to break through Russian forces defending Volgograd...

You can find a conversion of all the PG2 scenarios to the People's General engine in the People's General section of this web site:

http://www.peachmountain.com/5star/

[BeBro]

I'm thinking of dl-ing this. Just a question: can I still play the original Peoples General after this conversion, or do I have to re-install then?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by BeBro
I'm thinking of dl-ing this. Just a question: can I still play the original Peoples General after this conversion, or do I have to re-install then?

No you won't be able to play PeG after the mod is installed. You thus have to make a copy of your original People's General folder, to rename it to and install the mod in the new directory.

[CerberusIV]

Allied General and PG1 are exactly the same engine and everything else. The only difference is which side you play. In both games artillery fires then moves. Once you have moved a unit that's it. Unlike PG2 you can't go back to it later.

After a good run through the Blitz campaign in PG2 I mentioned earlier in this thread I have just been stopped in my tracks playing AG. Allied General was the game I first started with. This time I played as the British from Sidi Barrani to Germany without any real problems. The British are the easiest of the three as they have arguably the best tanks of the allies and only their tac bombers are not good, but artillery and level bombers can make up for that.

I then tried the Russian campaign. I had forgotten how tough it is. After scraping a victory in Finland, Pskov and Leningrad went OK. Vyazma was close but then I lost at Stalingrad. Having to drag your artillery around with trucks and cover them with AD units, also in trucks, is a real pain and the early Soviet infantry are unbelievably weak. Even the Russian tanks aren't that good until the KV85 comes along. Part of the reason I lost Stalingrad was having to hit each German tank with 4 or 5 Russian ones in order to destroy it which takes time when there is a lot of German armour to destroy.

Of all the PG1, AG and PG2 campaigns I think this is the hardest, at least in the early stages.

[BeBro]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
I then tried the Russian campaign. I had forgotten how tough it is. After scraping a victory in Finland, Pskov and Leningrad went OK. Vyazma was close but then I lost at Stalingrad. Having to drag your artillery around with trucks and cover them with AD units, also in trucks, is a real pain and the early Soviet infantry are unbelievably weak. Even the Russian tanks aren't that good until the KV85 comes along. Part of the reason I lost Stalingrad was having to hit each German tank with 4 or 5 Russian ones in order to destroy it which takes time when there is a lot of German armour to destroy.

Of all the PG1, AG and PG2 campaigns I think this is the hardest, at least in the early stages.

Oh yeah, I can only agree. It was also extemely difficult to get a good air force there, since the Luftwaffe kills the early Russian fighters without much problems. It was cool later to have at least two or three experienced Yak9s or later La7s. But in the beginning you had to combine them with lots of ADs , and even then your planes could have heavy losses.

[BeBro]

Oh, and just a note about PGI - while I still like it a lot, and think it is a great game, I'm a bit disappointed by the campaign "paths". All four campaigns should be more different IMO. Now there's a good chance that - when you play all campaigns - you often have the same scns over and over again (for example Moscow '41 or '43). Especially the campaigns starting later (both '43 campaigns) differ only in the first scns, then they become quite similar. The campaigns in AG were much more different, of course, since here you played different nations, but I think they could have made a better job in PGI too in this aspect.

[Boco]

BeBro, you may have some luck finding a better campaign at Herr General

Btw, the English version of this site crashes my Opera v7.

[Edit - added a new link]
Tortoise Page

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by BeBro
The campaigns in AG were much more different, of course, since here you played different nations, but I think they could have made a better job in PGI too in this aspect.

True. Even playing the Western Europe campaigns in AG as the British and Americans (I'm now commanding the Yanks, I'll go back to the Russians later!) are different as whichever one you take, the other is relatively weak and has to be nursed through.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Boco
BeBro, you may have some luck finding a better campaign at Herr General

Btw, the English version of this site crashes my Opera v7.

[Edit - added a new link]
Tortoise Page

I didn't knew this website...

But I can't access the various sections neither with Internet Explorer 6.

[Leonidas]

Here is a complete list of all the user campaigns available for PG2. There are now close 150 NEW campaigns, and more are being made all the time:

http://pub131.ezboard.com/fjpspanzer...icID=134.topic

[pg]

PG1 is tons of fun! how did i miss it all these years?

one question - how do i get over strength units in PG1? i start with them sometimes but i saw someone mention they had 15s?! how? can you make them via experience upgrades or something?

i've been playing quite a bit of PG1 and managed to get up to the early moscow attack and i should be able to at least win a marginal victory but i'm wondering if i'm doing something wrong. i'm having a really hard time killing the stronger soviet tanks. the only way i can kill them is usually heavy tactical bombing, along with artillery then finally hitting them with a strong tank/at unit and even then i'll generally only do less than 5.

infantry in cities is also quite tough and i need either massed units or artillery. it seems unfair considering the ai doesn't need to expend nearly the same effort when attacking my units of similar stats. i've had a 10 infantry defending a city wiped out by a 10 soviet infantry attacking without any pre-softening up while if i tried the same thing i'd be lucky to kill 1. this would be much more annoying but generally the ai doesn't attack so it's not a big deal. it also seems like the game is setup to favor defense immensely(especially the ai's) with special events(breaking up attacks, rugged defense, etc). not that i'm complaining merely just observing out loud as the challenge does increase the fun.

it seems ridiculous how strong soviet tanks can be. one time i was fighting one out of gas/ammo and i literally couldn't kill it with some of my better tanks(pre-tiger). is it just because my ground units generally have only less than 100 experience and thus suck(it's my first time playing and i've lost more than a few units, heh)?

[CerberusIV]

I have been playing Allied General but decided to try one of the allied campaigns in PG2. I went for the British assuming it would be fairly difficult as the advantages they have in AG, time to build experience, ample prestige for the best available units and the use of level bombers, would not apply.

I did play this campaign once before when PG2 came out but that was several years ago so I don't remember it. Salerno looked tricky but I soon realised the flanking villages were held by fortifications so could be ignored and that the key was to drive north. Plenty of artillery helps. I bought a Typhoon TB unit and a 40mm AD. Pushing north cost me an auxiliary infantry unit but the 25pdrs wore down the German infantry and I managed to break through and take the immediate objective. Airpower (I gained enough prestige to buy a Spitfire XII), artillery, tanks and infantry together managed to destroy the Tiger and Stug units and pursue the PzIIIN into the coastal objective. I split my forces and sent some artillery NE whilst a recon unit seized the airfield. Destroying the PzIII and an infantry unit secured the coastal objective. I got lucky in the north where there were 3 defending infantry units left. I hit the central one (on the victory hex) with 2 artillery units and attacked with the only infantry unit in range. That forced a retreat and my recon unit mopped up and occupied the victory hex for a decisive victory. A promising start!

I received a Comet tank as a prototype. Thanks very much! Upgraded both Sherman III's to Fireflys, upgraded the Typhoon to a Tempest, upgraded the Bishop SP artillery (hopelessly slow) to a Sexton (better) and the 25 pdr to a 5.5" with a Bren Carrier. Also upgraded the recon to an AEC III. The infantry had to stay untouched for now.

Started St Lo. Easy enough in the West and centre. The difficulty is in co-ordinating units as movement off road is painfully slow in the bocage. Fortunately the auxiliary US artillery is pretty good and I have taken all the Western and central objectives apart from the airfield. In the East around St Lo things haven't gone so well. Not being familiar with the scenario it was an unpleasant surprise when the Panther charged in and nearly destroyed my Comet. I have nearly wiped out the Hetzer but it is going to be a struggle to take St Lo in time to get another BV. A victory should be straightforward but wiping out the 88mm Flak to use my airpower may be taking too much time.

To be continued.....

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by pg
one question - how do i get over strength units in PG1? i start with them sometimes but i saw someone mention they had 15s?! how? can you make them via experience upgrades or something?

Unlike PG2 you don't overstrength between scenarios. Instead you need to keep reinforcing whilst the scenario is in progress. For each 100 experience you can go one point overstrength to a maximum of 5. The trick is to rest your better units towards the end of a scenario and keep adding reinforcements to get them overstrength. Overstrength everything as much as you can.

i've been playing quite a bit of PG1 and managed to get up to the early moscow attack and i should be able to at least win a marginal victory but i'm wondering if i'm doing something wrong. i'm having a really hard time killing the stronger soviet tanks. the only way i can kill them is usually heavy tactical bombing, along with artillery then finally hitting them with a strong tank/at unit and even then i'll generally only do less than 5.

infantry in cities is also quite tough and i need either massed units or artillery. it seems unfair considering the ai doesn't need to expend nearly the same effort when attacking my units of similar stats. i've had a 10 infantry defending a city wiped out by a 10 soviet infantry attacking without any pre-softening up while if i tried the same thing i'd be lucky to kill 1. this would be much more annoying but generally the ai doesn't attack so it's not a big deal. it also seems like the game is setup to favor defense immensely(especially the ai's) with special events(breaking up attacks, rugged defense, etc). not that i'm complaining merely just observing out loud as the challenge does increase the fun.

it seems ridiculous how strong soviet tanks can be. one time i was fighting one out of gas/ammo and i literally couldn't kill it with some of my better tanks(pre-tiger). is it just because my ground units generally have only less than 100 experience and thus suck(it's my first time playing and i've lost more than a few units, heh)?

To kill the Russian tanks you need airpower first. An overstrength JU87 will do the damage, then follow up with your best tanks. If you can surround a unit so it can't retreat that helps.

When attacking infantry you need to watch the entrenchment levels. A Russian infantry unit can start a scenario with entrenchment up to 8 whereas if you move an infantry unit into a captured city it will have much lower entrenchment. Consider using Pionieres as they ignore the defenders entrenchment when attacking a city hex. Otherwise use a level bomber to suppress the defenders strength then heavy artillery. For artillery you should exclusively use either sIG 1B's or 15 fH18's. Forget about the 10.5cm stuff as it isn't strong enough. Ensure you destroy any adjacent artillery first.

[CerberusIV]

....continued.

Fortunately the AI isn't smart. It put the Panther and PzIV on the bridges to the west of St Lo and I was able to wear them down with artillery before finishing them off with my own tanks.

With the German armour gone I was able to mop up the rest and get a BV. The time allowed seems quite generous in retrospect.

I was surprised to discover I then had about 4400 in prestige before Caen. My airforce now consists of 2 Spitfire XII's and 2 Tempests. I have 4 Sherman Fireflys and a Comet and was able to upgrade 4 regular infantry to Commandos in Bren Carriers and give my Engineer unit a Bren Carrier as well. In addition I overstrengthened both my experienced tanks and my artillery.

Now for Caen. It looks quite tricky. There are only 2 objectives to take but the British forces in the west consist of infantry backed by 25pdrs facing tanks. Should be interesting......

[ErikM]

Originally posted by pg
one question - how do i get over strength units in PG1? i start with them sometimes but i saw someone mention they had 15s?! how? can you make them via experience upgrades or something?

Click "elite replacements" while scenario is in progress. Sometimes it is better to wait a couple of turns before finishing scenario so that you can overstrength your better units.

i've been playing quite a bit of PG1 and managed to get up to the early moscow attack and i should be able to at least win a marginal victory but i'm wondering if i'm doing something wrong. i'm having a really hard time killing the stronger soviet tanks. the only way i can kill them is usually heavy tactical bombing, along with artillery then finally hitting them with a strong tank/at unit and even then i'll generally only do less than 5.

Use Stukas; artillery is more or less useless against T34s/KVs. You really don't need too many tanks/infantry in your core; something like 2-3 tanks and 2-3 infantry per battlegroup and you never need more than three battlegroups. Use the rest of your slots for airforce. Something like 5 fighters, 5 bombers is what I would use for Soviet scenarios.

infantry in cities is also quite tough and i need either massed units or artillery. it seems unfair considering the ai doesn't need to expend nearly the same effort when attacking my units of similar stats. i've had a 10 infantry defending a city wiped out by a 10 soviet infantry attacking without any pre-softening up while if i tried the same thing i'd be lucky to kill 1. this would be much more annoying but generally the ai doesn't attack so it's not a big deal. it also seems like the game is setup to favor defense immensely(especially the ai's) with special events(breaking up attacks, rugged defense, etc). not that i'm complaining merely just observing out loud as the challenge does increase the fun.

Every unit gets something like +1 attack, +1 defense, +0.5 initiative per entrenchment level and entrenchment also increases likelihood of "rugged defense". So an infantry entrenched to 8-9 in the objective cities is stronger than tanks. Each attack reduces entrenchment by 1, so you need to soften tough objectives up with arty, fighters, bombers, etc. first.

Pioneers/engineers/bridge engineers ignore entrenchment and negate risk of "rugged defense". In a german campaign, you basically need 3 overstrength bridge engineers to attack tougher objectives and 3 regular infantries to mop up after engineers. Use airforce to kill enemy tanks and armor to eliminate artillery & air defense and to mop up wounded tanks.

it seems ridiculous how strong soviet tanks can be. one time i was fighting one out of gas/ammo and i literally couldn't kill it with some of my better tanks(pre-tiger). is it just because my ground units generally have only less than 100 experience and thus suck(it's my first time playing and i've lost more than a few units, heh)?

Yes, given equal experience levels PzIIIs and IVs have no chance against T34s/KVs. But with 500 experience they will do fine against rookie T34s.

Actually while T34s are better then German armor the gap is not too large. It gets much worse for Russians in 1943 scenarios when Germans get Tigers while Russians still have to wait a year for better equipment. If you play ie Kursk scenario for Russians, it is literally impossible to damage Tigers and Elephants. They can wound themselves attacking Russian entrenched anti-tank guns, but it is incredibly difficult to finish them off. Great fun, this scenario

[ErikM]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
With the German armour gone I was able to mop up the rest and get a BV. The time allowed seems quite generous in retrospect.

I was surprised to discover I then had about 4400 in prestige before Caen. My airforce now consists of 2 Spitfire XII's and 2 Tempests. I have 4 Sherman Fireflys and a Comet and was able to upgrade 4 regular infantry to Commandos in Bren Carriers and give my Engineer unit a Bren Carrier as well. In addition I overstrengthened both my experienced tanks and my artillery.

If you are into modding, I strongly recommend downloading Steve Brown's British Western desert & Italy campaign from the site mentioned above. It is simply incomparably better then default SSI campaigns. It is long (something like 25 scenarios), tough, and has a nice mixtture of offensive and defensive scenarios.

And you will never have 4400 prestige sitting around. Actually, it will be a major cause for celebration when you scrap enough prestige to upgrade your starting Hurricane to a Spitfire

His Russian campaign (General Bistrov) is also good and is tougher then the British campaign but altogether British campaign is better designed - relatively small forces on both sides and every unit on the map serves a purpose.

[Leonidas]

Here's a ton of NEW campaigns and scenarios for PG1 and AG here:

http://members.aol.com/RhinoBones/Tourney.htm

And here are dozens of NEW campaigns for PG2 here:

http://go.to/panzergeneral2


Have fun!

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by ErikM

If you are into modding, I strongly recommend downloading Steve Brown's British Western desert & Italy campaign from the site mentioned above. It is simply incomparably better then default SSI campaigns. It is long (something like 25 scenarios), tough, and has a nice mixtture of offensive and defensive scenarios.

Thanks for the recommendation. I did look at the list of campaigns from a link a few posts back and was intending to download and try a Western Desert campaign.

[pg]

ah, thanks for the information everyone. i obviously need to go back and download the manual from the doghouse as i was totally clueless about most of the stuff mentioned. i imagine i'll do much better now that i have some more of the basics down. i think it's time to start over...

[Main_Brain]

Doh I reinstalled Peoples General [called Dynasty General in EU]
but it seems win XP cant handle the Graphics?
The Main Menu works but the Maps and units are not displayed
Can anyone give me a hint how to get it to work?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Main_Brain
Doh I reinstalled Peoples General [called Dynasty General in EU]
but it seems win XP cant handle the Graphics?
The Main Menu works but the Maps and units are not displayed
Can anyone give me a hint how to get it to work?

You have to copy the MAP folder on your CD-ROM and to paste it on your Hard Disk Drive into the People's General folder (same for PG2 called Operation Panzer in France though People's General have kept its original name in France).

[lord of the mark]

Well, having done great playing the American campaign at 125% prestige, i figured I was ready to play fair, and went for Soviet campaign at 100%. Did ok with Saturn, but then ran unprepared into rather hard Prokhrovka (Kursk) scen. Even tried playing Saturn over again to be better prepared, no luck.

So Im taking baby steps, playing the Blitz campaign at 125%. Its a good bit harder now.

[Garth Vader]

So I downloaded the PG2 mod for PeG. So far it seems much easier than the regular PG2. Although it might be tougher to keep my core units alive.

That's my complaint with the PeG engine, it makes it easier to kill units with air power.

But with the ability to fire with towed units after moving that makes 88's quite fun!

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by pg
i think it's time to start over...

The key to success is developing your core units. You need to keep them alive so they build experience (only use elite replacements) from one scenario to the next. Practice will allow you to develop your own pattern of what units you add as you are allowed more core units.

If you have enough slots for around 20 core units you should be looking at 2 battle groups consisting of a couple of infantry, 2-3 tanks and 1-2 artillery each and 6-8 air units and maybe a couple of extra artillery or tanks to boost a battlegroup with a difficult objective. For air units I would go for 3 fighters, one tac bomber that can do air to air (Me110/210/410) a couple of JU87D's and a couple of JU88's. From 1943 onwards half your air units will need to be fighters. Fortunately the Russians never get a fighter in PG1 that matches even the FW190a, let alone the later German fighters.

After that, expand by adding another battlegroup and boosting your air force. Air units should be around 1/4 to 1/3 of your total core units (more for the Americans in AG).

Adjust the force mix to suit your personal preferences and enjoy!