Current status of WAR with the Hive

MrWhereItsAt · March 12, 2004, 20:13

For those who don't know, the Hive has killed the CP they were worried about. Thus we exist at a state of war. This is the official decision and the official turn.

HOWEVER, I have been chatting with a Hive member about this (we are both ruled as OK to do so by our factions), and we should probably be able to get out of full-blown war with a few PMs back and forth. No ultimatums for the moment, just a question on what they did and why, and how we can get some compensation yet still stay at peace.

Further, I am told that to enquire further we must contact HongHu. So can we get her in chat sometime? If not, then I suggest we send a PM to her informing her of the situation (CP gone, current vendetta), asking what the reason(s) were, and telling her we seek a peaceful alternative to war. We'd ask what about us threatens them in such a way, how we can reassure them so this doesn't happen again, and how we can get compensation for the CP and other things that we may need to backtrack on to avoid this repeating itself.

Let's be friendly. This is clearly a last minute decision (hence the replay), and they can't have a clear plan yet. So let's divert their thoughts from war.

GeoModder · March 13, 2004, 04:02

MWIA, HongHu knows only too well what happened.

She was the one informing Maniac about the cp's fate.
Also, in public forum, I made statements as well as that the pod still lives AND that it was not intended to found a new base on that isle. If is was not enough for Hive to believe us (well, me in this case) on our words, then they never will.

Also, check the map, they are the military faction ATM. They have prepared for this, I do not think they easily back down now. After all, even if we did found a base on that isle, they could easily destroy it by dropping units there. It IS there turf.

Also, what you suggest in the Hive diplomaty thread comes down as we will meekly accept what has happened, and will foolishly believe every excuse they come up with to blind us untill they are on the gates of Apolyton Prime itself.

As for the message informing us. The info given about the destruction is minimal, they could have send the regret message AND an offer for compensation at the same time, explaining their reasons as well. They have chosen NOT to do so, instead awaiting our reply. This is a bluff game for them, and I say we counter their bluff.

In this case, my opinion is that of a toe for a toe. They destroyed a unit of ours, well, I think we should destroy the Hive units who had contact with that pod in their RP, using the same 'contamination' reason. And THEN, with a counter regret of ours, we can offer then a peace treaty, and let them decide on that.

For tactical reasons, this means that in case they do want to pursue war, their naval units on our borders are already eliminated, so giving us a few turns more breathing space to build some decent defenses. Those are stretched enough as it is.

Illuminatus · March 13, 2004, 15:38

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoModder
their bluff.

In this case, my opinion is that of a toe for a toe. They destroyed a unit of ours, well, I think we should destroy the Hive units who had contact with that pod in their RP, using the same 'contamination' reason. And THEN, with a counter regret of ours, we can offer then a peace treaty, and let them decide on that.

For tactical reasons, this means that in case they do want to pursue war, their naval units on our borders are already eliminated, so giving us a few turns more breathing space to build some decent defenses. Those are stretched enough as it is.

i think this is a good idea Geo.

MrWhereItsAt · March 13, 2004, 23:20

A toe for a toe just means everyone's going to walk funny.

WHat I fear is needless escalation. I don't propose meekly accepting this, as that sets a bad precedent, but I favour exhausting diplomatic options first. We should ask for an apology and a good reason, and for reparations, also a reassurance this will not happen again. If we don't get these things then we have a problem, and can start to issue ultimata, taking a unit or two in return, all the time keeping them aware we are willing to talk if they are willing to compromise.

Am I really the only one who doesn't want war with the Hive until we've had some time to prepare after the PEACE war - we will need to rebuild and redeploy before anything like that would go our way.

GeoModder · March 14, 2004, 04:00

I can live with taking out PEACE completely as a sort of 'punishment' on Hive (they are plotting a lot together, those two), but only just. It wasn't PEACE who sneak attacked us.

I think Hive should not be trusted anymore. First they support our war efforts, then they turn against suddenly, then they actively help PEACE to survive (how futile it is, we outsmarted them 2 times already).

You people play this game a lot longer then me, and know the core Hive members better as well. So you should have better insights then me why they behave in such diabolic ways. Is this sort of 'diplomaty' normal for Hive? Try to divide and rule?

I think they will respond with a meaningless diplo reply to try us into inaction, and the next step is that 'silent partner' Drones start knocking on PUT's gate.

Drogue · March 17, 2004, 17:23

I don't say take out PEACE for revenge. The only reason we didn't before was Hive pressure. There now isn't that reason not to. It makes sense to finish them,. take their resources, and remove them from the game. Then go after Hive.

GeoModder · March 17, 2004, 17:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
I don't say take out PEACE for revenge. The only reason we didn't before was Hive pressure. There now isn't that reason not to. It makes sense to finish them,. take their resources, and remove them from the game. Then go after Hive.

Damn it, I won't do it, and that's final.

And the only reason we didn't take PEACE out before was that no troops were in the area.

I sticked my neck out against the majority of this faction to ensure that Hive couldn't have a military base in our vicinity, taking risks for a full out planet war, and then, when all you old guys seemed content to go away and leave the ravishes to the newcomers and we doing our very best to get things normalised again, then you decide to blow the whistle again and start a suicidal course of action. Why don't you just obliterate every single base CPU has? Is a lot shorter, and you're done with it then.

Drogue · March 17, 2004, 18:05

Ey? Have I missed something? I thought we were intending to take out PEACE, as the poll said, until the Hive posted that thread. I don't think it's suicide either, I think we have a chance. I've never gone away, I post about as often as I have for quite a while (except the last couple of days, as explained in the RC).

But anyway, disregard the last part of you want, but I thought the aim of the PEACE war was always anniliation. It is what we have always voted for.

The Hive have declared war. I don't take kindly to a faction having a go at us, when weve been good allies all along, then attacking us, then expecting us to grovel to be friends again. Why not take them on? Maybe side with the Drones. We were about to do that before they declared war.

What won't you do, and why?

GeoModder · March 17, 2004, 18:38

I'm reacting this way since lately you and Maniac were content fading away to other stuff then leading the faction. And then suddenly you guys pop up again and, well, break the diplomaty lines me, MWIA and Impaler are trying to build up. Further more, I asked clearly what the thoughts of the members were about negotiations with PEACE, a close majority seemed in favour of letting them survive, as long as they moved away from us. You were in favour of a ceasefire as well.
I also asked this because I didn't want to be associated with this sort of trickery of starting diplomatic talks, giving PEACE hope and then going for the blowing kill.

Drogue, I started negotiations with these people, getting out of my league to try making a deal here, and then suddenly all must collapse again. How do you think I feel when first I'm more or less assured I can start this course of action, and the next thing to be associated with treason, trickery and... a hell, I'm out of words...

I know one thing, I assumed the Prime Function office not to play with other players feelings. It is simply not fair to them, nor to me. I refuse to play the turn if this is the course of action this faction takes, since I felt that I had people next to me working on a peacefull solution to all this mess. It are mostly people who don't participate in the playing itself who wants PEACE out. Well, if those want PEACE out, do it yourself then.

I'm more then happy making war plans, giving that sort of orders and so, but not playing with the feelings of other people. That is an almost criminal thing to do IMO, and you guys forced me in this position. That's what makes me angry, damned!!!

Drogue · March 17, 2004, 20:08

I'm sorry you feel like that. I didn't mean to wreck things at all.

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoModder
Further more, I asked clearly what the thoughts of the members were about negotiations with PEACE, a close majority seemed in favour of letting them survive, as long as they moved away from us.

I thought the last poll was to annihilate them?

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoModder
You were in favour of a ceasefire as well.

No, I argued against it. I never liked the idea.

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoModder
I also asked this because I didn't want to be associated with this sort of trickery of starting diplomatic talks, giving PEACE hope and then going for the blowing kill.

I never wanted to give PEACE hope. Surely they could see the only reason for the ceasefire was to appease the Hive. When the Hive attacked, why appease a faction were already at war with. I've always, and will always, want to anniliate PEACE, for reasons of enjoyment.

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoModder
Drogue, I started negotiations with these people, getting out of my league to try making a deal here, and then suddenly all must collapse again. How do you think I feel when first I'm more or less assured I can start this course of action, and the next thing to be associated with treason, trickery and... a hell, I'm out of words...

Sorry, I didn't know you'd been assured. I've read the threads, and there didn't seem to be any polls, or anyone's opinion I saw really on what to do about it. What are peoples opinions with regards to PEACE and the Hive? Is this all sorted in chat (I can't use it much, my IRC doesn't work at work).

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoModder
I know one thing, I assumed the Prime Function office not to play with other players feelings. It is simply not fair to them, nor to me. I refuse to play the turn if this is the course of action this faction takes, since I felt that I had people next to me working on a peacefull solution to all this mess. It are mostly people who don't participate in the playing itself who wants PEACE out. Well, if those want PEACE out, do it yourself then.

I thought the faction hadn't decided? I'm sorry if these decisions have been made and I haven't noticed, but I didn't realise we'd decided on PEACE. I haven't read much since the Hive attack. Personally yes, I'm against peace with PEACE, and always have been. I completely agree about not messing others around. I've gone out on a limb not to do that before. If the faction wants peace, then go for it. However IMHO, we will come to blows with the Hive at some point, and they'll be stronger compared to us soon. I presumed when they declared war, we'd go to war. Likewise I assumed the latest poll showed war with PEACE.

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoModder
I'm more then happy making war plans, giving that sort of orders and so, but not playing with the feelings of other people. That is an almost criminal thing to do IMO, and you guys forced me in this position. That's what makes me angry, damned!!!

I agree completely. I always wanted to annihilate PEACE, and now we've been attackedby the Hive, I think we should defend ourselves, and when finsiehd with PEACE, attack them. I've always been a big Hive supporter, but with Jamski's PM, HongHu's threads, Voltaire's insistence on war and their attack, I don't see much option.

I'm against playing anyone. I'm also against a peace deal where we forgive them for declaring war, after the whole thing they went through about us and PEACE.

Impaler[WrG] · March 17, 2004, 20:26

Drougue going to war with the Hive is simply not an option here, their #1 on military power already after only a few turns of building, it is WE who will be in deep trouble if their is a war and that is why we are trying to take the diplomatic route to save our asses.

I know your tecnicaly the Embasador but so far I havent seen you conduct any ware as me and Geo have been working hard at that for several days now and may be close to a deal.

We had desided to eliminate PEACE many turns ago but as the situation evolves we must re-evaluate things and that is what the new poll is for, we should see what the results our and we will be guided by them.

GeoModder · March 17, 2004, 20:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Sorry, I didn't know you'd been assured. I've read the threads, and there didn't seem to be any polls, or anyone's opinion I saw really on what to do about it. What are peoples opinions with regards to PEACE and the Hive? Is this all sorted in chat (I can't use it much, my IRC doesn't work at work).

And I haven't even IRC. and the opinions I refer to are in the 'Fate of PEACE on yardlong island' thread.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
I thought the faction hadn't decided? I'm sorry if these decisions have been made and I haven't noticed, but I didn't realise we'd decided on PEACE. I haven't read much since the Hive attack.

Faction is appearantly undecided. When I post in the 'PEACE diplomaty' thread a proposal for a 'let's talk' message towards PEACE, get an ok from the Prime Function and no one disagrees from other members, what do I have to think then? I'm in favour of letting them live, I made that clear in several postings. It's not because I'm pursueing them so vehemently that I want them destroyed. The pursue was solely so that Hive wouldn't get a nice warhead base near CC territory from where they can launch air assaults at will. As MAF i've done a great job so far, 3 times I blocked Hive attempts for a tactical advantage, even against general opinion of the faction at first for reasons of too costly or too dangerous.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
I agree completely. I always wanted to annihilate PEACE, and now we've been attackedby the Hive, I think we should defend ourselves, and when finsiehd with PEACE, attack them. I've always been a big Hive supporter, but with Jamski's PM, HongHu's threads, Voltaire's insistence on war and their attack, I don't see much option.

"He who turns away and runs, lives to fight another day"
Hive is ATM stronger then us, probably in air units. They can't touch our bases for at least 4 turns. Their's no reason to pursue vendetta with them now. Both parties have had their say in how they felt about that whole cp issue, and it doesn't bring us any step closer. As I couldn't allow a PEACE base under Hive protection that close to Atlantis, so couldn't Hive tolerate a base near their territory. It is a tactical stalemate. Too bad we lost that cp, but I'm not prepared to fight them over it when we're not ready at all. Drogue, this faction is far to concentrated on economy, it is not at all prepared for a planet war. Even now members only want to build up economic and social stuff, and close their eyes for the near future reality.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
I'm against playing anyone. I'm also against a peace deal where we forgive them for declaring war, after the whole thing they went through about us and PEACE.

Well, I'm brought in that situation now. In Impalers' last poll their ain't enough votes yet for a final decision, but I do now that the core members like you and Maniac set the trend. If this faction decides to take PEACE out of the game, I simply can't stay in it, and I simply must post my apologies to the PEACE active members then. Dammit, why must I receive an ok for diplo stuff when no one is interested in that?

Impaler[WrG] · March 17, 2004, 21:21

I still dont see any possible advantage to eliminating the Pirates from the game, as long as their not a threat we would mearly be pissing off the Hive by eliminating them. We already took everything of value from them, they are refugees now.

Drogue · March 18, 2004, 10:23

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoModder
Faction is appearantly undecided. When I post in the 'PEACE diplomaty' thread a proposal for a 'let's talk' message towards PEACE, get an ok from the Prime Function and no one disagrees from other members, what do I have to think then?

You could reply, saying that seemed like a good idea, but not agreeing to anything. You could reply saying you needed to ask the others, and post a poll. You could keep discussing, and then poll when you get an official proposal. However we all have an equal vote. Just because the Prime Function and the MAF agree, on a major issue such as this, isn't enough, you need to know what others feel too. For most things, that wopuld be fine, but I think whether we persue a war or not is an important issue, and needs to be decided as a whole.

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoModder
Drogue, this faction is far to concentrated on economy, it is not at all prepared for a planet war. Even now members only want to build up economic and social stuff, and close their eyes for the near future reality.

Possibly. Although we have the advantage of dual factions, so we can run a Free Market research faction with PUT, and a credits and militaristic faction, producing units, with the CyCon. Therefore we can attack and gain an edge in the tech race, not to mention techsteal. Also, we have been at war for a while, we do have a not insignificant force, whereas the Hive had almost no standing army until very recently, and can't have built that much. I'm scared we'll be out build by them, and I feel we have the advantage. Regardless, we are at war atm, so we should plan for both peace and continuation of war, IMHO.

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoModder
Well, I'm brought in that situation now. In Impalers' last poll their ain't enough votes yet for a final decision, but I do now that the core members like you and Maniac set the trend. If this faction decides to take PEACE out of the game, I simply can't stay in it, and I simply must post my apologies to the PEACE active members then. Dammit, why must I receive an ok for diplo stuff when no one is interested in that?

We are interested in that. The idea for diplomacy was always that the official discussed, eithe rthe EAF, the PF, someone like that, and brought a few proposals back to the CyCon, who ratified them. Or more often, polled at the begining on what they were allowed to offer. We are interested, we decide as a faction, even though officials do the diplomacy and discussion. I am happy keeping out of public discussions on it, but to ratify a deal you do need to check with the faction, and a poll is by far the easiest way.

You haven't led PEACE on. We did want peace, due to Hive pressure, at the time. IIRC, you have never promised PEACE otherwise. However I would caution against agreeing to things, such as the DMZ, or letting them live, or anything like that, without posting a poll or making sure you get opinions on it. Or during diplomacy simply say "I like it, but I'll have to ask the faction". The other factions understand that we have to discuss things and decide them.

You have done a good job, with some remarkable diplomatic acheivements. But if the people want to go to war, then trying for peace isn't going to work. It seems the best option seems to be to allow them to live if they leave Yardlong Island, but to destroy them if they don't. Try to get PEACEm to agree nicely, but if all else fails (and the poll ramins like that) give them an ultimatum. Personally I'd like to destroy them, but the faction decides as a whole. I'm sorry if I wrecked things, that was not my intention. However it did need to be pointed out that not all the faction agrees with having peace at all costs.

Drogue · March 18, 2004, 10:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I still dont see any possible advantage to eliminating the Pirates from the game, as long as their not a threat we would mearly be pissing off the Hive by eliminating them. We already took everything of value from them, they are refugees now.

They have a council vote, and so Drones, Hive and PEACE can outvote us. They slow turnplay, being an extra faction. They can trade techs and military with the Hive. They can be a thorn, if the Hive attacks, they can be opportunistic when our fleet is on another front. IMHO, that's enough reasons to destroy them. I do see the reasons for not eliminating them, I just think it's better to finish what we started.

Impaler[WrG] · March 18, 2004, 13:06

Why not add a condition that they are not alowed to vote Against us in Council ever, they may only abstain if they dont agree with us. Would their agreeing to that satisfy anyone? We should bring this point up at our next set of talks.

GeoModder · March 18, 2004, 13:20

ATM it doesn't look as this game will go so far that other council proposals become debatable (at least not with us around), thus there is simply no need anymore to 'delete' them, but for one thing:

Hive can station air units in Crossbone Way in 2 turns. They might even already be on their way now, thus arriving in 2161 Hive turn.