The reichstag is burning. (Russian elections thread )

[Serb]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper


Constitutional amendment! Constitutional amendment! *cough* Ahem:

"We, the people of the United States of America, have the right to have ballots about local, state and federal issues with the option of "against all" available on them."

Oh, yeah! Simple and sweet, baby! And now to convince 38 state legislatures and super majorities in the Senate and House ...

Gatekeeper

You do not have this simple option?
And you call your system democracy?

[lightblue]

I think the common method of indicating your complete displeasure with all candidates is to spoil your ballot.

[Serb]

Barbarians.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by lightblue
I think the common method of indicating your complete displeasure with all candidates is to spoil your ballot.

This does exactly the same as staying home and ignoring the polls. Why waste valuable calories?

[Serb]

Because other people might vote anyway. Let say 50% of voters ignored the poll and stayed home. The result of the poll, will be considered as legitimate and those 50% percents of voters who participated, will elect one of the candidates.
On the other hand, if those 50% of participants who ignored the poll, had option to vote "against all" and actually used this option, then the result would have been different. In this case, (if option "against all" will gain the most of the votes) all candidates will be considered as loosers and new election campaign should be started, but this time without those candidates.
That's how it work in Russian law. I'm pretty surprised you don't have this option.

[Paul Hanson]

It also signals that you're not apathetic, just displeased with the choice of candidates, which is completely different.

[Harovan]

In case they check who went voting and who didn't, staying home signals it even better. It's a clear and personal statement, while making your ballot void is just being dishonest.

[Paul Hanson]

No, what I'm saying is that voting for "none of the above" shows that you want participate in the democratic process, but that you aren't a fan of the candidates. You could do this by staying at home, yes, but how can you distinguish between that and just not being arsed to vote at all?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Russia has a "none of the above" voting option? That's so ****ing cool; America needs it.

France needs it too

For now, the only way is to put an empty envelope in the urn, and these votes don't even affect percentage values

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
In case they check who went voting and who didn't, staying home signals it even better. It's a clear and personal statement.

No. There are many different reasons for people not to go to vote: one could simply not be arsed with democracy, one could be confused and not understand anything, one could feel he cannot take the responsibility to vote (yep, I met one of those), one could be too old or ill to go to the polling booth, one could oppose the very idea of democracy, or one could distrust the parties and refuse to vote on these grounds.

Voting "none of the above" IS an obvious, one-meaning political statement. Staying at home is far from being a clear signal.
Void votes aren't dishonest: at the opposite, they're the honest statement that you like the idea of democracy, but hate the crooks that pretend to control it currently.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Serb
It seems you have no idea what slight exaggertion means.
Example:
a) USA is dictatorship. It is a slight exaggeration.
b) USA is democracy. It is a big exaggeration.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
If Putin brings back socialism, I'll put a picture of him on my wall.

I don't expect Putin to bring back socialism. He is more likely to bring up an efficient statist bureaucracy for main economic sectors, with some role left for the capitalists. And I expect such economy to be directed towards the interest of the Russian State more than the interests of the Russian people.

I expect the Putin-economy to look fairly similar to Meiji's Japan, with the Russian big companies being less autonomous from the State than the keiretsu.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
If Putin brings back socialism, I'll put a picture of him on my wall.

How would that change any of the objections you had to him in your earlier post?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Spiffor
No. There are many different reasons for people not to go to vote: one could simply not be arsed with democracy, one could be confused and not understand anything, one could feel he cannot take the responsibility to vote (yep, I met one of those), one could be too old or ill to go to the polling booth, one could oppose the very idea of democracy, or one could distrust the parties and refuse to vote on these grounds.

Voting "none of the above" IS an obvious, one-meaning political statement. Staying at home is far from being a clear signal.
Void votes aren't dishonest: at the opposite, they're the honest statement that you like the idea of democracy, but hate the crooks that pretend to control it currently.

Well, we don't have the "none of the above" option, golubchik. If we had it, the problem would be solved. But since we don't have it, not going to the polls is more honest than to go and void the ballot.

[Tattila the Hun]

What? Putin won? Didn't see that coming...

[Imran Siddiqui]

My lord... Serb bites so easily at trolls, it's hardly fun anymore .

[lord of the mark]

serb - the impression here is that

1. while Russian newspapers are lively and free, Russian TV is not, and that Putin has deliberately made a point of subjecting one network after another to his control

2. While there are valid arguments for going after the oligarchcs, Putin has made a point of going after specifically those oligarchs who bankrolled the opposition. And this has had a chilling effect

3. While Putin IS popular, and might well have won anyway, the Russian political scene IS being impacted by 1 and 2.

4. Putin has been heavily staffing the russian govt, especially the "power ministries" with ex-KGB

5. Considering all of the above, while Russia may still be a democracy, it is increasingly moving in an authoritarian direction.


Of course Russia is a sovereign country, and is not required to meet Western standards of what is or is not a democracy. However for those of us who saw change in Russia as a key factor in the world moving forward, this is still a matter of concern.

[Serb]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
serb - the impression here is that

1. while Russian newspapers are lively and free, Russian TV is not, and that Putin has deliberately made a point of subjecting one network after another to his control

There were two scandals around tv companies, NTV (owned by Gusinsky) and TV-6 (owned by Berezovsky). Both of them (owners of those tv companies) are... fuc... hm... well... let's say - "not honest or good persons, pursued by police, a susspects". Personaly I would prefer to see both of them in jail.
NTV has changed the owner and TV-6 lost its licence. The personel of those companies didn't dissapeared. They are (I mean reporters and journalists) still working in different companies and still pretty hostile to Putin. Most of the staff fleed to Ren-TV tv company and now continue their anti-Putin crusade from there.

2. While there are valid arguments for going after the oligarchcs, Putin has made a point of going after specifically those oligarchs who bankrolled the opposition. And this has had a chilling effect

Ha.
If you stole a dollar, you are thief, if you stole a billion dollars, you are head of opposition to government, a freedom fighter.
Every thief, when he feel (or know, or fear) that he will be arrested for his crimes soon, is trying to portray himself as an innocent victim. It's typical behavior for criminals. Those bastards knew that sooner or later, police will come to bring them in court and they bankrolled the opposition:
a) When it will happen (the will be arrested for their crimes) they will portray themselves as victims of evil dictator Putin, who fights against free media.
b) Because they do not like Putin and want to change the situation and bring back their "golden age" (like during Yeltsin's rule) when they had a real political power, to bring back the enviroment which let them steal billions without any punishment.

Also, I think/I hope that fight vs. oligarchs is not over yet. I heard Abramovich, the guy who bought Chelsea, also bought a castle (for 5,5 million British pounds, not a big money for him, since within a couple of years he "made" 26 times more money, then British queen have now) in GB. I guess he is planning to move to UK permanently.

3. While Putin IS popular, and might well have won anyway, the Russian political scene IS being impacted by 1 and 2.

Sure it was, that's was the oligarch's idea- your media now portrays them as victims and Putin as dictator who crush any opposition.

4. Putin has been heavily staffing the russian govt, especially the "power ministries" with ex-KGB

Really? Who exactly in new government do you mean?
Anyhow, I heard a daddy of your current president was a cheif of CIA for a while? So?

5. Considering all of the above, while Russia may still be a democracy, it is increasingly moving in an authoritarian direction.

I don't think so.

Of course Russia is a sovereign country, and is not required to meet Western standards of what is or is not a democracy. However for those of us who saw change in Russia as a key factor in the world moving forward, this is still a matter of concern.

Ok. I just think that Putin do not deserve word "dictator". I do not think he deserve ALL this BS your and partitially (the part sponsored by opposition) our media says about him. Despite I didn't vote for him, I think he is doing his best to make Russia a better country. And I'm pretty sure he will not come against the constitution as many fears, and there will be not 3rd term for him.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Spiffor

No. There are many different reasons for people not to go to vote: one could simply not be arsed with democracy, one could be confused and not understand anything, one could feel he cannot take the responsibility to vote (yep, I met one of those), could be too old or ill to go to the polling booth...

You mean the people who can't come to polling booth (ill or old people) can't vote?
In Russia if you can't come to polling booth all you have to do is make a phone call and the people from election commision will came to you and bring to you your ballot.

Looks like your western democracies sucks. You don't have "none of the above" option, your elders and ill people who can't came to polling booth lose their votes.
Yep, it sucks, completely sucks. And guys like Imran and DD are lecturing us about democracy?

[Oncle Boris]

Originally posted by Serb
In Russia if you can't come to polling booth all you have to do is make a phone call and the people from election commision will came to you and bring to you your ballot.

And the possibilities of abuse created by this system are so vast and ridiculously imprudent, that I can only @ you for believing that democracy is about home-delivered ballots.