Excuse me but what the hell is this? - Page 5

Snowflake · March 17, 2004, 16:08

Wow such heated discussions. As I just came back from my business trip I feel I have a calmer mind so that I may be able to summarize a few observations as objective as I can.

Here're the facts I gather, let me know if I'm incorrect:

1. CC broke out a war against PEACE, Hive stated its desire of keeping neutral.
2. CC merged with Uni and formed CPU. Hive felt hesitatant and lowered its CC pact to treaty.
3. PEACE was at risk of being eradicated by the CPU. The Hive presented a motion for cease fire and returning of the PEACE bases by the CPU. Have CPU and PEACE reached a cease fire? I'm not very sure about this.
4. Sometime during this period, CPU converted PEACE's colony pod and Hive later destroyed this colony pod.
5. We are all heavily accusing each other for our past actions.

I think we all understand each other regarding what happened. What we don't agree upon is what is wrong and what is right. However, as many pointed out this may not be the key. The key is what we are going to accept and what we are not.

[Edit] Edited so that CPU does not read PUT.

Oh and this point:
6. Function GeoModder is promoted ~~after his success in PEACE colony pod conversion mission~~ to an unknown position.

GeoModder · March 17, 2004, 16:17

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu
Wow such heated discussions. As I just came back from my business trip I feel I have a calmer mind so that I may be able to summarize a few observations as objective as I can.

Welcome back to real business.

The only wrong point I can find in your summarise is:
- point 2, the unification isn't called PUT, but CPU

As for point 3, diplomatic talks continue on a friendly base.

point 5 seemed to have cleared the sky, if this is an english idiom as well...

Btw, you missed my promotion

Drogue · March 17, 2004, 16:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
The Central Military Committee was concerned that the base would be used for military purposes, which could be a threat to the security of the Hiverian homeland. The action was taken as a prudent means by which to ensure our long term security. We would have allowed PEACE to establish a base there; this does not mean we would have allowed you to do it.

So instead of asking us not to build one, you just destroy it. Great. Let's murder civilians without provokation or warning, because we can't be bothered to ask first if they'd withdraw it.

As for your comments about our threats. You just declared war and attacked a civilian unit, killing thousands. We're happy to be civil and debate it, but you didn't even give us an ultimatum, you just attacked us. Even your own faction members said it was an act of terrorism.

Drogue · March 17, 2004, 16:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
If I recall correctly your aggression was deemed illegal by the Council,

Yes, declaring war and killing units, especially civilians, was declared illegal. Which is why you just did it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
Second of all the CyCon was attempting to use civilians as a shield in an attempt to establish a military base within the reach of Hiverian soil.

Which we weren't.

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
Should we take this as the view of all CyConians?

Should we take Enigma's old views, Jamski's views, HongHu's posts all as the view of all Hiverians?

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
The Hive wants peace, but we will have peace on fair and equitable terms, not on your terms.

So do we. We want a peace that doesn't involve you attacking us.

Look at the Hive CPU relationship. We asked for a co-op victory, you said no but agreed to Pact. Then you downgraded, when we didn't want to. They you attacked us, when we wanted peace. And yet you think you're the ones wanting peace? Friendship?

Drogue · March 17, 2004, 16:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
You attacked PEACE first; you have shown yourself to be aggressors.

We gave you reasons. We attacked peace because there was no council or forum to bring our grievances to, as a last resort. You declare war, on unarmed civilians, because you felt threatened, without any warning for an evactuation or communication whatsoever. You also are aggressors, without provocation.

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
The Human Hive has committed itself to the fight against imperialism in whatever shape and form it finds. You stole a PEACE colony pod; you moved it to the landmass we had reserved for PEACE, a landmass which the Hive views as vital to its security, from our perspective that does not look good.

Without telling us that was reserved for PEACE and while CPU and PEACE were discussing their zone?

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
Regardless of this issue move beyond it, it is over, if you want to move toward better relations with it get of it, accept it, and move on.

Excuse me? You think that killing our unarmed citizens doesn't have reparations? You start a council motion accusing us of atrocities while you murder innocent civilians. You break international laws that you wrote in the last council motion, and think that's ok?

We'd like to move on. We'd like to be friends. But when our allies first downgrade their relationship, then, without warning, accuse us of an action they once agreed with, without telling us their opinions had changed, then attack us, killing our civilians, without warning and provocation, and you think that all this is ok, that you're being defensive? You are the aggressor with CPU. You attacked us. You broke off the pact. Yet you claim we're the ones who won't talk? We do, and have always, wanted to discuss and co-operate with the Hive. But how can we when we are met with threats, ultimatums, and violence. You accuse of of threats, yet you have threatened us.

Jamski · March 17, 2004, 17:41

Quote:

I like to bring the attention of people here to the thread initiated by a private Hive citizen.

Please read the recent post there.

That means ignore the last long posts (sorry Drogue you must have taken ages to type them all) which are only designed to try to inflame this argument.

/me feels guilty for not really reading Drogue's points, but knows that arguing with him won't help the situation *

-Jam

Drogue · March 17, 2004, 17:54

Don't worry... I was just rambling probably anyway

Snowflake · March 17, 2004, 18:00

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoModder

Welcome back to real business.

The only wrong point I can find in your summarise is:
- point 2, the unification isn't called PUT, but CPU

As for point 3, diplomatic talks continue on a friendly base.

point 5 seemed to have cleared the sky, if this is an english idiom as well...

Btw, you missed my promotion

Oops sorry. Post edited.

Jamski · March 17, 2004, 18:01

Quote:

Don't worry... I was just rambling probably anyway

Normally I like to read your "Drogue specials"... but I'm not sure a carefully detailed RP-rebuttal of each point would really help the cause.

-Jam

Snowflake · March 17, 2004, 18:06

Hey we have not killed innocent civillians!!! We were informed by your newly promoted Function GeoModder that you've captured the PEACE civillians inside the colony pod and they are being safely cared for by the CPU as prisoners of war. The Hive coastle guard reported suspicious indications of unknown virus ... They can't actually be the remnant of CPU assimilation can they?

Jamski · March 17, 2004, 18:07

HONGHU!!!!!!

Stop it!!!!!

This doesn't help the democratic process.

-Jam

GeoModder · March 17, 2004, 18:08

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu
Hey we have not killed innocent civillians!!! We were informed by your newly promoted Function GeoModder that you've captured the PEACE civillians inside the colony pod and they are being safely cared for by the CPU as prisoners of war. The Hive coastle guard reported suspicious indications of unknown virus ... They can't actually be the remnant of CPU assimilation can they?

/me gestures towards Pravda, 3D and the newly created thread by Jamski...

Snowflake · March 17, 2004, 18:28

Oh! ok.

Jamski · March 17, 2004, 18:30

-Jam

Voltaire · March 17, 2004, 18:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue

So instead of asking us not to build one, you just destroy it. Great. Let's murder civilians without provokation or warning, because we can't be bothered to ask first if they'd withdraw it.

As for your comments about our threats. You just declared war and attacked a civilian unit, killing thousands. We're happy to be civil and debate it, but you didn't even give us an ultimatum, you just attacked us. Even your own faction members said it was an act of terrorism.

You’ll have to bring that up with the Foreign Affairs Committee; it’s not under my jurisdiction.

The Hive government would greatly appreciate the names of any such alleged members who made that claim.

Voltaire · March 17, 2004, 18:47

Quote:

Yes, declaring war and killing units, especially civilians, was declared illegal. Which is why you just did it.

War is not illegal as have been stated numerous times, aggression is. This was an act of self-defense.

Quote:

Which we weren't.

I’ll take the word of the CMC report any day over yours.

Quote:

Should we take Enigma's old views, Jamski's views, HongHu's posts all as the view of all Hiverians?

Good point.

Quote:

So do we. We want a peace that doesn't involve you attacking us.

Look at the Hive CPU relationship. We asked for a co-op victory, you said no but agreed to Pact. Then you downgraded, when we didn't want to. They you attacked us, when we wanted peace. And yet you think you're the ones wanting peace? Friendship?

Meanwhile as all this was going on the University and CyCon merged and invaded PEACE.

Jamski · March 17, 2004, 18:50

Voltaire unless you stop overriding the efforts of the rest of "your" faction time after time because you have a personal vendetta against the CyCon, then you may find yourself playing on your own in the Hive team.

-Jam

Voltaire · March 17, 2004, 18:53

Quote:

Excuse me? You think that killing our unarmed citizens doesn't have reparations? You start a council motion accusing us of atrocities while you murder innocent civilians. You break international laws that you wrote in the last council motion, and think that's ok?

It was an act of self-defense. We deny that they were unarmed innocent civilians, rather a military front for a forward CPU base with Hiverian territory.

Quote:

We'd like to move on. We'd like to be friends. But when our allies first downgrade their relationship, then, without warning, accuse us of an action they once agreed with, without telling us their opinions had changed, then attack us, killing our civilians, without warning and provocation, and you think that all this is ok, that you're being defensive? You are the aggressor with CPU. You attacked us. You broke off the pact. Yet you claim we're the ones who won't talk? We do, and have always, wanted to discuss and co-operate with the Hive. But how can we when we are met with threats, ultimatums, and violence. You accuse of of threats, yet you have threatened us.

Then talk, the Foreign Affairs Committee will be more than please to hear and listen to what you have to say. We have made mistakes in the past as have you, if we want to correct them this is the time to do it, so by all means enter into formal negotiations with the Hive whereby we may come to some sort of agreement. Continued accusations will not help things; they will only make them worse.

Snowflake · March 17, 2004, 18:56

Stop you counter-revolutionary action against the Chairman will you Jamski?

GeoModder · March 17, 2004, 19:02

Deleted.

Voltaire · March 17, 2004, 19:06

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoModder
"Originally posted by Voltaire - Self-defense, there’s a difference."

This is the second time I’ve gotten into a signature.

Voltaire · March 17, 2004, 19:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamski
Voltaire unless you stop overriding the efforts of the rest of "your" faction time after time because you have a personal vendetta against the CyCon, then you may find yourself playing on your own in the Hive team.

-Jam

I’ll note now for the record that my opinions express only my own, not those of the Human Hive. The Hive democratically will decide what course of action to take.

Jamski · March 17, 2004, 19:07

Never! The Chairman is single-handedly determined to take the Hive to war against the wishes of the Hive people!

Quote:

Only the fallen
Stand silent testimony
To the Hive's Glory

The heros of now
Are just the fading shadows
Of the Hive's sunset.

The cry rises up
"Where are the Kodys of old
That lead us so well?"

There is just silence
No answering voices come.
There is no more hope.

The spark of freedom
That once burnt so brightly here
Is now a stranger

The citizens stand
In thier great grey regiments
Of undying shame.

Not one drone dissents
For the Chairman's word is law
Crushing all to dust

Democracy weeps
There is no hope for the Hive
There is no hope, but...

Still Comrade Jamski
Defies the dictatorship
And calls for freedom!

-Jam

GeoModder · March 17, 2004, 19:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
This is the second time I’ve gotten into a signature.

Glad you like it, it seemed appropriate...

Have to go now, thanks for the company, people.

Voltaire · March 17, 2004, 19:11

I’ve just realize that Jamski’s the single reason the Hive needs a court, in fact both of our cases were about him.

You cause too much trouble.

Jamski · March 17, 2004, 19:16

See how the Chairman brutally stamps on those that oppose him!

/me is brutally crushed beneath the Chairman's iron boot *

-Jam

Skanky Burns · March 17, 2004, 23:29

See the repression inherent in the system!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire

Quote:

The colony pod flew the CPU colours. It responded to CPU orders. It did not respond to PEACE government orders. So that is 3 factions at least that recognise the CP as CPU property.

And at least three that do not, so we’re even.

You're not even close to being even. You speak for the Hive, that is true. However you have yet to provide any proof that other factions did not recongnise CPU as being the new owners of the colony pod. I provided proof, it is only fair to ask the same of you.

Voltaire · March 17, 2004, 23:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
You're not even close to being even. You speak for the Hive, that is true. However you have yet to provide any proof that other factions did not recongnise CPU as being the new owners of the colony pod. I provided proof, it is only fair to ask the same of you.

Eh, the Hive, the Drones, and PEACE. That's 3 by my count.

Skanky Burns · March 17, 2004, 23:43

I already proved that PEACE recognised our claim. Try again.

Voltaire · March 17, 2004, 23:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
I already proved that PEACE recognised our claim. Try again.

Did PEACE say they recognized your claim?