Who loves America?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Pekka
DanS, and that's exactly why I didn't read it!

Anyway, well someones gotta lose, no? It will be fine I promise *huggies*

Thank god you didn't forget the Huggies, GePap is getting cranky.

[Sikander]

Most people don't like the U.S., but most people are ignorant and many are downright stupid and smell bad too. So who cares what they think?

[Heavy and Happy]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Pikku G

Ahhh damn. You know about the great shame of Finland.

[Theben]

.

[East Street Trader]

There is a divide in the world between the haves and the have nots. And nowadays the have nots get reminded a whole lot about the inequality because of the world's much improved communications.

Much of the stuff showing people engaged in spectacular consumption comes from or is set in the USA plus the US has, over the last 50 years or so, engaged in an interventionist style of foreign relations.

So it is not surprising that the focus of the have nots envy is the US.

I am not altogether certain about how this has lately come to have a religious sub text. But I suppose it may be that the part of the world where the US has interfered the most is the middle east. Partly because of the relationship the US maintains with Israel and partly because of the political importance of cheap oil in the US.

Or maybe it is just that some other areas of the world have their own pre-occupations just now. Africa with Aids and with tribal conflict, India and China with their burgeoning economic and political development. (Who knows what in South America.)

Anyway among the have nots it has lately been the Moslem states where envy of the US and resentment at its interventions have been most felt.

It is desperately disappointing that this should lead large numbers of people to think well of those men of blood who give expression to their frustrations by striking out.

But I guess I have not suffered what the have nots suffer so I should not expect to be able to understand.

What seems to me clear is that one of the major challenges facing the world is to eliminate the divide.

That it is feasible to do so is clear. The machine is busy churning out such mountains of wealth that all it takes to bring every single human being into the "have" category is some method of distribution.

At present we lack the institutions to achieve that distribution. Capitalism and market forces are not doing it for us - or, if they are, they are not doing it quickly enough. And communism is now recognised as a busted flush.

Anyway, in the end, that is the way forward. Wars against terrorism are merely distracting trivialities.

As also, I rather think, are nation states and the patriotic fervours which give them cohesion.

[Pax]

I think the need to be liked centers around the desire not to be attacked on the way to work, at work or at home. If more people liked us we would feel safer and less likely to be concerned with how the rest of the world feels.

I dare to say that most americans felt like we were minding our own business prior to 9/11 and that did not work. Combine that with President Bush and you have a situation in which not only can any city in the U.S. be attacked but any city in the Muslim world stands to feel the full force of military might or at least what can be spared. What can be spared is more than enough to give most countries a bloody nose.

Other countries dislike is also due to jealousy. The U.S. is the most powerful country in the world. Their is always hatred of Number 1. Any country occupying that spot would be hated.

In the end, I think it should be hard for Middle Eastern countries to be mad at the U.S. when it's the european countries that monopized their resources and left them in a weakened state when their empires collapsed.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by East Street Trader
That it is feasible to do so is clear. The machine is busy churning out such mountains of wealth that all it takes to bring every single human being into the "have" category is some method of distribution.

You're a commie

At least a closet one

[East Street Trader]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
not only can any city in the U.S. be attacked but any city in the Muslim world stands to feel the full force of military might

That encapsulates the aspect to so much of armed conflict which seems to me daft.

Some nutter, perhaps with some nutty pals, kills or hurts a bunch of strangers.

So fellow countrymen of the strangers seek out and kill or hurt another bunch of strangers who share some sort of connection with the nutter.

Eventually what you get is two polarised groups who fear and hate each other.

I can readily understand why those who like to wield power play on this. But I don't think we are all sensible to let them.

Has the military action taken by the US really made you feel safer from the nutters? To my eyes the likely result of what has been done is for a few more nutters now to have joined the ones there were before. And I find it difficult to believe that the nutters have been detered from some further outrage by the prospect of this leading to the bombing of another Muslim city or the invasion of another Muslim country.

Marx had some good ideas, UR. I particularly like his notion of the withering away of the state. But communism has been tried enough to know that it's methods of distributing wealth fail. The spontaneous peaceful disintegration of the USSR is the most extraordinary (and heartening) event that has happened in my time. And there can be little doubt that it was the simple fact that under communism you found yourself queing for all but the most mundane consumer goods while on your TV and cinema screen you saw market economy countries in which the supermarket shelves groaned under the weight of the goodies displayed which led all those people just spontaneously to say, "enough, it's time for a change".

I would be really interested to know how the Chinese are presently managing to synthesise the market economy with communist institutions. Maybe they are doing something worth copying?

[child of Thor]

I see the other side of the world plays while i sleep

@Pekka - I'm glad you dont hate me, even though you thought i was just stiring up a bash america discussion, its why i like Finns(and scandinavians - reasonable people by and large,with sensible foreign policies)

And maybe i chose a bad title for the thread -

@Theben you hit the nail on the head, as i read the BBC article i thought "who loves ya baby?" - its from Kojak a 70's american detective series, so that was the reason for the title. Sorry if it mislead

@ East Street Trader , yes i come to very simular thoughts on it all, even though to some people, and at some times i might be called a fascist rather than a commie

I think this world issue is well beyond any sort fo neat party political label.

I dont think its a simple issue of either being branded a supporter of the disturbed terrorist, or being a supporter of any wolrd government that wages war on other countries for a dubious reason.

These things are never black and white - in fact they are mostly grey, and our governments want it that way.

Why they do it is one question worth asking(probably something as stupid as money), and why we let them is another(probably the same reason?).

Our world doesn't seem safer to me now - and its future most likely less so, i cant see a change of heart from the first world rulers. Not unless we really take part in the whole process and try to address the imbalances that have festered away for a good few hundred years(like using the vote etc).

We going to have to make those life decisions if we want to see a different heading for this thread

We owe it to our future as citizens of planet earth.

And i dont think it will just work to kill eveyone you see as an enemy - although i suspect this is actualy seen as a real possible plan in some quarters!

PS i'm not a communist/hippie/red for those that want to dismiss this thread - i'd happily kill in war, at close quarters, with bare hands; if i felt it was justified...or maybe just for the hell of it.....grrrrrrrr!

So please dont be blind to our emerging fate, i think the new aspect of our present day warrents a serious re-think on how we lead from here on. We create the wolrd our children have to live, i'm slightly dissapointed with how selfish we have been up to now

[Oerdin]

When it comes to the Arab world we are resigned that they will never love us so we have opted for having them fear and respect our power instead.

[Cruddy]

Much of the world has a love/hate relationship with the USA.

Americans love themselves and everybody else hates them for it.

Personally I think this is a very shallow attitude - which fits in with my notion that most people really are very shallow.

[Rogan Josh]

Well, I won't visit the US until it changes its policies

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
When it comes to the Arab world we are resigned that they will never love us so we have opted for having them fear and respect our power instead.

They might if we hqdn't been squashing their attempts at national freedom, less corrupt government, democracy, etc for fifty years. If we treat thm with respect, eventually they will come around. That's why I don't ever expect them to love us.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Well, I won't visit the US until it changes its policies

Are you trying to get us to change our policies?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Are you trying to get us to change our policies?

No - it was just a statement - I don't have a machine readable passport and I can't be bothered to apply for a visa....

[MOBIUS]

Yeah, the blind paranoia of the US passport controls is really shooting itself in the foot big time...

Anyways I have seen about 80% of what I want to see in your country, so boycotting it for a few years is no skin off my nose.

I love America!

It's just the moronic religious fundy you have as a leader and the ***** that elected him that I have a problem with - so that means I actually like the majority of the population...

Though personally I am quite happy to see him returned to power as it will probably accelerate the downfall of the US' power - which can only be a good thing considering the way that it is currently being abused...

[MOBIUS]

The shame is that the US could be such a power for good in the world...

People in the US really should sit up and think just why it is that so many people the world over hates its policies - and we're not just talking about its 'War on Terror' and pursuit of not existant WMD etc...

No, it is practically every foreign policy the country has like stabbing its war on terror allies in the back with protectionist trade wars for example...

(though we soon made Bush change his mind by getting ready to target industries identified as key backers to his regime - backed down pretty quick he did too, like a b*tch-slapped *****...)

I am really struggling to think of 'good' foreign policies from America - even the supposedly free aid comes with nasty strings attached...

Can someone help me?

[Japher]

I am really struggling to think of 'good' foreign policies from America - even the supposedly free aid comes with nasty strings attached...

With attitudes like that I wish the US would go back into isolation, and let the world see how things would be then.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Japher
With attitudes like that I wish the US would go back into isolation, and let the world see how things would be then.

So do we.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
I am really struggling to think of 'good' foreign policies from America

The good ones are the ones that advance our interests. The bad ones are those that don't.

[Japher]

Yup, yup... As I recall, when we came out of isolation the last time it was at the beckon call of all ya wilst you were blowing yerselves to kingdom come.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
So do we.

Not according to polling.

[Japher]

The good ones are the ones that advance our interests. The bad ones are those that don't

Thank god we didn't sign that Kyoto thingy

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Amen brother.

[Pekka]

Japher, no we weren't. Some were. We were doing just fine up here in north. Don't generalize .

[DinoDoc]

You're just mad because we saved the Soviets from the Nazi/Finn alliance.

[Pekka]

We had no military alliance. And we weren't taking out the SU. a) we didn't have the resources to do it and b) we didn't want to do it and c) if we did do it, we would have truly declared war on the SU. We could have cut the main support roads EASY. We were right next to them. But we stopped and Mannerheim REFUSED to cut it and Hitler was FURIOUS. THere's an alliance to you. If anything, Germany offered us support against an invasion. No one else did, except some volunteers and Swedes helped us a bit. I'm not mad US helped the Soviets. They fought Nazis after all. But US did not help a small country who faced communist aggression and invasion either. I'm not mad about that either. All I'm saying is there are 1000 views on things, and there is no single view that is 100% right and the rest are false.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Heavy and Happy
I love the USA and especially USA sluts.

Everyone loves Finland though. What's not to like?

Finns

Pikku G

[Pax]

I also love USA sluts.

My point is that any nation on top will basically make policies that are designed to keep them on top. It's foolish of anyone to expect that the U.S. would do otherwise. The debate inside the U.S. is to whether or not the current policies advance the best interests of the U.S.

Also, Europe initiated most of the previous and current problems in the middle east and asia. So it's not fair for the U.S. to be blamed solely for the current crisis.

[St Leo]

My point is that any nation on top will basically make policies that are designed to keep them on top.

Then why in f**king f**k isn't America making those policies??? Bush has single-handedly cut America's projected lifespan in half.