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Old March 22, 2004, 21:07   #151
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I attach no moral weight to other species - we might as well f*ck with them as long as it's in our self-interest
Not our *your*.

If you had an interest in OUR well being, you would realize that systematically destroying OUR landbase is suicidal. It is not about any one species, it is about a whole culture which is literally killing itself and much of the community around it.

When wolves returned to Yellowstone, they started feeding on the greatly expanded elk population. This reduction in elk numbers allowed certain species of pusywillow to return, which led to many other bird and small mammal species returning, and bird species who could return to habitats they had been pushed out of.

This was only possible because the wolves had managed to maintain enough population to rejuvenate their genetic potential. The same cannot be said for many other species.

Phytoplankton levels have been dropping, coral reefs are dying, topsoil is washing away by the ton every day. These are some of the basic building blocks of the food chain, and this culture is dismantling them like a demented game of Jenga, where the only question really is whose children get to try and clean up the mess
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Old March 22, 2004, 21:11   #152
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by PeteH
Not our *your*.

If you had an interest in OUR well being, you would realize that systematically destroying OUR landbase is suicidal. It is not about any one species, it is about a whole culture which is literally killing itself and much of the community around it.[/q]

Damaging the environment to the point where we can't sustain ourselves is a good example of f*cking with them that ISN'T in our self-interest try again

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When wolves returned to Yellowstone, they started feeding on the greatly expanded elk population. This reduction in elk numbers allowed certain species of pusywillow to return, which led to many other bird and small mammal species returning, and bird species who could return to habitats they had been pushed out of.

This was only possible because the wolves had managed to maintain enough population to rejuvenate their genetic potential. The same cannot be said for many other species.

Phytoplankton levels have been dropping, coral reefs are dying, topsoil is washing away by the ton every day. These are some of the basic building blocks of the food chain, and this culture is dismantling them like a demented game of Jenga, where the only question really is whose children get to try and clean up the mess
What's the problem? Unless the Earth can't sustain agriculture anymore, and sea levels don't rise, sharply, we won't be affected.

Obviously, I support protecting the environment, but only inasmuch as it is beneficial to us. Anything else is pointless.
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Old March 22, 2004, 21:16   #153
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*sigh* It really is tiring to argue with someone who always agrees with me, but just won't admit it.

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, the exception is that intelligence evolved at all, not the course that society took.

I disagree (loathe) your assertion that intelligence is technology, but that is what was said. PeteH was speaking of pre-agrarian times, and his whole point was that there was a time before we where "intelligent" (as you put it), and that us becaming what we are now was an anomaly.

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Everything has a sort of "evolutionary" destiny, in that there are certain evolutionary trends.
Only in hind-sight.


Can you tell me what the trends will be over the next hundred billion years? I'd like a glimpse into the future.
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Old March 22, 2004, 21:20   #154
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Originally posted by General Ludd
I disagree (loathe) your assertion that intelligence is technology, but that is what was said. PeteH was speaking of pre-agrarian times, and his whole point was that there was a time before we where "intelligent" (as you put it), and that us becaming what we are now was an anomaly.
But it isn't! Us becoming this way is a predictable result of the evolution of intelligence! In fact, it's probably one of the biggest reason intelligence was so evolutionarily successful!

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Only in hind-sight.
What's your point? From the observation of human societies and their evolution, we can tell that they tend to follow certain predictable patterns.

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Can you tell me what the trends will be over the next hundred billion years? I'd like a glimpse into the future.
Well, a hundred billion years is a bit extreme, considering the sun will go nova in five and life has only been around for about three
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Old March 22, 2004, 21:53   #155
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But it isn't! Us becoming this way is a predictable result of the evolution of intelligence!

So, would you say that the african bushmen did not evolve intelligence, then?
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Old March 22, 2004, 21:55   #156
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1. They were tool-using.

2. They were on the way towards developing technology. Intelligence is not defined as having developed technology, but being capable of doing so. Dolphins are not. People are.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:02   #157
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Originally posted by Kucinich


1. They were tool-using.
So are monkeys.

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2. They were on the way towards developing technology.
Hm? They've been hunter gatherers for millions of years and they still are. They seem pretty content to be unintelligent proto-humans.


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Intelligence is not defined as having developed technology, but being capable of doing so.
First of all, you can't say something is capable of developing technology untill it has. But that's a pretty pedantic definition you have.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:05   #158
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you can't say something is capable of developing technology untill it has.
Of course you can! If others of the same species in other areas have developed X, then, of course, that group of the species has the capability of developing X.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:09   #159
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
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you can't say something is capable of developing technology untill it has.
If others of the same species in other areas have developed X, then, of course, that group of the species has the capability of developing X.
Stop agreeing with me, please!
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:12   #160
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A majority of human existance has been under some form of dictatorship. So I think the point about human nature stands.
Not really. The majority of human existance has been under free, egalitarian societies. It's only with the advent of plant and animal domestication do authoritarian systems become prevalent.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:19   #161
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Stop agreeing with me, please!
I'm not... I 100% contradicted your point.. and you're dead wrong .

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The majority of human existance has been under free, egalitarian societies.
It hasn't, only perhaps in pre-historical settings, but we can't be sure .
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:25   #162
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Unless the Earth can't sustain agriculture anymore, and sea levels don't rise, sharply, we won't be affected.
Agriculture of the manner practiced by this culture has never been sustainable, and the earth *can't* sustain it like it is now. We are living off energy that will not be replaced on any sort of human scale. We *are* affected, every day, by the results of this lifestyle. The diseases that kill people today are mostly diseases of civilization.

I also wonder where people are finding their evidence that somehow civilized people are smarter. The idea that one day we figured out how to live in a way that would destroy us and this is our great accomplishment, as opposed to living in a way that ensured our survival in the long run, like the rest of the world, strikes me as 'odd' to say the least. In all the research I have done, I have never seen anything which points to some biological change which allowed civilization to occur.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:30   #163
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Originally posted by General Ludd
So are monkeys.
Not to the extent that any humans are... not to the point of making spears and stuff.

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Hm? They've been hunter gatherers for millions of years and they still are. They seem pretty content to be unintelligent proto-humans.
They use spears and axes, don't they? QED.


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First of all, you can't say something is capable of developing technology untill it has. But that's a pretty pedantic definition you have.
And they are! There is no biological difference between us and them, and we have, therefore they could.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:33   #164
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It hasn't, only perhaps in pre-historical settings, but we can't be sure .
Hunter-gatherers have existed in historical times, and even exist today, you know.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:34   #165
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Originally posted by PeteH
Agriculture of the manner practiced by this culture has never been sustainable, and the earth *can't* sustain it like it is now. We are living off energy that will not be replaced on any sort of human scale. We *are* affected, every day, by the results of this lifestyle. The diseases that kill people today are mostly diseases of civilization.
You haven't contradicted my point yet... if it is detrimental to us, we shouldn't do it, otherwise it's an a-OK. I'm not arguing that certain things are and certain things aren't detrimental.

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I also wonder where people are finding their evidence that somehow civilized people are smarter. The idea that one day we figured out how to live in a way that would destroy us and this is our great accomplishment, as opposed to living in a way that ensured our survival in the long run, like the rest of the world, strikes me as 'odd' to say the least. In all the research I have done, I have never seen anything which points to some biological change which allowed civilization to occur.
They aren't inherently more intelligent, but they happen to have used that intelligence to create some pretty, well, intelligent devices.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:36   #166
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Originally posted by Kidicious
You raised an interesting point though Ogie. You could also assume that people are primarily concerned with equality as opposed to individual economic benefit, however I think that whether or not you prefer inequality to equality depends on how much economic benefit the individual will get from any particular system with inequality. Poor people in a system with inequality will be more inclined to prefer equality, and rich people in a system with inequality will be more inclined to prefer inequality. However, in a system with equality I'm certain that the vast majority of people will prefer equality, because when you seperate equality from economics it is in itself desirable where inequality is not.
Your beginning to understand the conservative morality here. When you describe equality it is a philosophy we agree to. But where we part ways is how that equality is defined/approtioned etc.

Equality to us means an equal chance. No one is due anything except for that equal chance. (Now you may argue, appropriately so, that under capitalism and through its failings that equal chances are impossible). Further a conservative thinks the best means to be fair is to give as much opportunity as possible and not restrict those chances to win. So by luck, shear determination, sweat and tears one can win and deserves to do so. It is largely a matter of individual responsibility to make it happen.

So we do have our notions of equality and do agree that is is a mandate it is our perceptions of what equality is tho' that differs.

In as much as we ascribe to this view, anything that prevents indivudal opportunities or removes the individual from his freedom to make those decisions is in our minds the largest infringment on equality of choices as those who have the potential to do more are prevented from doing so in the name of equality for the whole.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:36   #167
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Hunter-gatherers have existed in historical times, and even exist today, you know.
Dictatorships have a longer span, and hunter-gatherer societies had a least some minimal heirarchies (which may be have been based on strength of the members).
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:41   #168
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Hunter-gatherer societies have been stable for many thousands of years (which is much more than you can say for dictatorships). And were the most egalitarian of just about any human society (and no, the hierarchies were very rarely based on physical strength).
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:42   #169
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A lot of people get caught up in the math. Economics doesn't always work out perfectly in math, because of the nonscience nature of it. Much of it must be discovered dialectically, and economists have to know when the math doesn't help. All this is determined unfortunately by ones ideological bias, and more conservative people usually come to the wrong conclusions because they were more concerned with the math that the reasonability of the problem and solution.
That's because a lot of economists still hold onto the the fantasy that macro is more than a bunch of half-assed generalizations about massively nonlinear systems. Micro is really the only valid facet of econ, and as long as the scope is reasonable, mathematical modelling can be effective.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:44   #170
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I'm not... I 100% contradicted your point.. and you're dead wrong

Hum. let's see... I said that you can't say a species is capable of developing technology untill it already has. And you said that once a species has developed technology, it's safe to say it's capable of doing so.

Where's the contradiction?


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Originally posted by Kucinich
Quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
So are monkeys.
Not to the extent that any humans are... not to the point of making spears and stuff.

So it has to be a specific kind of tool?

What are the qualifications... being human-made?

Monkeys do use specialized tools adapted to specialized taskes. They'll manipulate twigs and grass to create a tool that's suitable for fishing out termites from a mound, for instance.

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They use spears and axes, don't they? QED.
I think some of them might even have ak-47s these days, now that I think about.

And yet they haven't followed their predicable evolutionary path and insist on remaining hunter gatherers.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:46   #171
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Originally posted by General Ludd
So it has to be a specific kind of tool?

What are the qualifications... being human-made?

Monkeys do use specialized tools adapted to specialized taskes. They'll manipulate twigs and grass to create a tool that's suitable for fishing out termites from a mound, for instance.
They bend natural items and stuff to create tools. Humans worked stone and stuff. There actually is a definition of "tool" that evolutionary biologists use when talking about these things (it was part of a big debate). Rest assured, there is a qualitative difference between human tools and other primates' "tools".

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I think some of them might even have ak-47s these days, now that I think about.

And yet they haven't followed their predicable evolutionary path and insist on remaining hunter gatherers.
Not evolutionary, societal. And you know what? The reason is because the societies that survive are the ones that do change. Every other one dies out, eventually.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:47   #172
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HUnter Gatherers had little time for socio-political heirarchies as they were bent on survival and following game.

That being said there was ususally some form of leadership that established when the time to move was required.

Once societies were formed that wer more or less stationary (i.e. agriculture) then the fun began. War against neighboring societies slave raiding etc.

Lots of good stuff in the mid-east and in south america prehistory. Man always had the urge when time permitted to dominate the neighboring tribes steal possession and the like.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:48   #173
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I said that you can't say a species is capable of developing technology untill it already has. And you said that once a species has developed technology, it's safe to say it's capable of doing so.
No, you said that you can't say a group of a species is capable of developing technology if another group of the species has.

Remember what you were saying about the African bushmen?
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:49   #174
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You haven't contradicted my point yet... if it is detrimental to us, we shouldn't do it, otherwise it's an a-OK.
Earlier, you said:

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Us becoming this way is a predictable result of the evolution of intelligence! In fact, it's probably one of the biggest reason intelligence was so evolutionarily successful!
The point I have been trying to make is that 'this way' is *not* successful. In fact, it is as near a total failure as I can imagine. In an evolutionary time frame, civilization is an experiment (or mutation if you prefer)by one group which will collapse like other failed mutations.

The fact that there have been thousands of groups of equally bright humans who did not take this path (and were exterminated because they dared stand in our way) seems to me to be a good indicator that this was in no way an 'inevitable path' and if you are really concerned about the well being of other humans, you would do well to learn how to improve your landbase instead of destroying it for your short-term benefit
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:51   #175
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Hmmm... I think that we qualify as "successful" right now, only slightly less so than bacteria.

We're the only ones with a chance of getting off this rock.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:55   #176
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Remember what you were saying about the African bushmen?
I didn't say anything about the bushmen. I was just asking why they haven't followed the human destiny.

I was worried that maybe they'd been left behind and where still proto-humans.
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Old March 22, 2004, 22:57   #177
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HUnter Gatherers had little time for socio-political heirarchies as they were bent on survival and following game.
Actually, they spent far less energy acquiring food than a farmer ever did, and had much in the way of leisure time. this has been known in anthropological circles since at least the 50's. There is a collection of essays that escapes me right now, published in the last few years, which contains "The original Affluent Society" and other more recent work relating to it

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Lots of good stuff in the mid-east and in south america prehistory. Man always had the urge when time permitted to dominate the neighboring tribes steal possession and the like.
This again is a mischaracterization of what was the more common general practice. The raiding and warfare of pre-civlized groups has very little resemblence to the warfare of settled agrarian society.
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Old March 22, 2004, 23:00   #178
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I was just asking why they haven't followed the destiny of humanity.

I was worried that maybe they'd been left behind and where still proto-humans.
You contradict yourself. They are of the same species and thus have the same capabilities of other members of the species. Simply because they haven't done it yet, doesn't mean they not capable.
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Old March 22, 2004, 23:05   #179
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Originally posted by PeteH


Actually, they spent far less energy acquiring food than a farmer ever did, and had much in the way of leisure time. this has been known in anthropological circles since at least the 50's. There is a collection of essays that escapes me right now, published in the last few years, which contains "The original Affluent Society" and other more recent work relating to it
Yeah I've read it as well. Not that I agreee with it. The more appropriate near day records tho' are of native americans. In those, the Indians were nomadic and did indeed have to endure elements and famine until such time as game could be found. If and when game was not to be found it was hard times immediately. Feast or famine as it were. Hence the reason agriculture become envogue. Granary anyone?

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This again is a mischaracterization of what was the more common general practice. The raiding and warfare of pre-civlized groups has very little resemblence to the warfare of settled agrarian society.
Only to the extent that societies typically didn't bump into each other. As soon as they did to any meaningful exten watch the fun.
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Old March 22, 2004, 23:11   #180
General Ludd
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You contradict yourself. They are of the same species and thus have the same capabilities of other members of the species. Simply because they haven't done it yet, doesn't mean they not capable.
I didn't say that they wheren't capable or not a member of the species, or whatever.

Jesus, if you're still stuck on my saying 'First of all, you can't say something is capable of developing technology untill it has." I was just correcting the logic-loop in Kucinich's poor definition of intelligence.
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