Column #136; By Xuenay

October 14, 2000, 23:47

Xuenay takes aim at the Apolyton administration for their handling of forum post count situations in his article entitled "<A HREF="http://apolyton.net/misc/column/136_count.shtml">The Meaning Of The Post Count At Apolyton Forums</A>.

Comments/questions are welcomed here.

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Dan; Apolyton CS
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by DanQ (edited October 14, 2000).]</font>

Christantine The Great · October 15, 2000, 00:22

I think that the post count is the least important thing in the forums because the new people just want big titles, thousands of posts, and to look important. They just hog server space. The date under the title tells who the person is. That is what I look for.

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"Freedom, Trade, Christantine!"

The Official Webpage of the Chrisonian Republic

The Viking Archives

UltraSonix · October 15, 2000, 00:49

Still angry at Ming for closing your DL thread, eh Xuenay?

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

Lews Therìn · October 15, 2000, 00:53

Xuenay, are you planning on following this up with a Modest Proposal?

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Thus spake the Dragon

Par4 · October 15, 2000, 03:29

anyone who doesn't care about post count, has a life!

October 15, 2000, 04:38

1) you cant and we shouldnt rank people by post count, cause an increase be 1 in someone's post count might mean:
a) a bump post
b) a reply for help in one of the help forums
c) a post arranging a multiplayer game in the mp forums
d) a spam post in the OT
e) a post reporting that the game was sent in the pbem threads
f) a new model for the economy in civ games
g) a pretty serious and well thought OT post
h) a strategy to win on deity with 2 cities before 500BC

i) a 1000 words post by MtG

etc etc....

2) I disagree that the OT has the "highest intellectual level". look at the civ3, clash and alt.civs forum where whole game models are suggested and discussed and tell me they are of lower "intellectual level"...

3) giving a spammer a 50% pcr is far better than disabling him for 6 months. in the first case, he is hit where it hurts

in the second, after a couple of weeks he might be bored waiting and try to make a DL to come back...

4) we are not here to "improve our own position" or look good in the "eyes of the rest of the Apolytoners". we are here to provide a good service to civ community, not to act like politicians...

Narck · October 15, 2000, 07:49

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>For civilizing others, the
people who post at Off-Topic fully deserve their post count.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>Those who make lots of serious posts, which are of major assistance to other posters, aren't spammers to begin with, and they likely don't care about post count at all
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Narck (edited October 15, 2000).]</font>

Smash · October 15, 2000, 18:19

I have to agree with Christantine the Great.I have a feeling that some of the high post count members know little or nothing about civ.They live in a world of imagined internet celebrityhood-celebrityness..whatever.

Mao is a deity.
Xin Yu is a king

I see off-topic as a side thing.I come for the meat but like alittle potato(e)s also.

I question the validity of this statement also:

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>See, Off-Topic is the forum where the discussions with the highest intellectual level happen
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

It used to be that way but now it seems few and far between.

October 15, 2000, 19:02

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Smash on 10-15-2000 06:19 PM</font>
Mao is a deity.
Xin Yu is a king

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
exactly this is why we are saying that the post count and the related titles are not a way to rank people

Father Beast · October 15, 2000, 21:22

I can't think of anywhere except off topic where anyone has looked at my post count to see whether I was worth replying to. from my settler days on the civ3 forum, I was judged on what I said, not whether I'd been around for a while.
And, sorry to disagree Christantine, but I don't ever look at the date either. I mean, does anyone take Alexander's Horse seriously? He does have a good idea occaisionally, though.
I will attend Xin Yu's war academy anytime I can spare the time. who cares that he's "just a king"

Father Beast · October 15, 2000, 21:23

As a matter of fact, I was a settler when I wrote my entry for the EC3 list. if that doesn't say something, I don't know what does.

Christantine The Great · October 16, 2000, 18:18

You're absolutly right about the Civ III forums. I was respected because of my new ideas (except for a certain citrus fruit-sfwr). I remember my settler days fondly...

*reality starts to wave violently and then the flashback starts*

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"Freedom, Trade, Christantine!"

The Official Webpage of the Chrisonian Republic

The Viking Archives

DarkCloud · October 16, 2000, 21:50

Narck- about that post you made on the 15th...

I assume that I am an intelligent poster, 50%-70% of my posts have come in the AC-Fiction and Civ III ideas forums...

and I find the Post counts most intriguing. It is not needed of course but it makes the experience on the board much more fun.

You can see who has made worthwhile ideas and posts more times than someone else.

Solution to spam:
Someone who spams 10 times should be docked but an extra 5% of that which would be a total of 15 posts off his count

October 16, 2000, 22:14

For those of us who are not experts at the various games discussed in the various forums (and some who are). The post count system fulfills a basic reinforcer to the operant behaviour of posting on these boards (according to the principles of behaviourism). It helps to keep people posting on these boards. THAT is a function that the admins should be aware of.

On the other hand, introducing it might have opened the door for spam. Another behaviour principle is that if you reward someone for something they already like to do, then eventually they will lose their intrinsic enjoyment of the behaviour and work only for the external stimulus -- in this case, the points/post count.

KhanMan · October 17, 2000, 04:30

I fail to see the author of this column's "social hierarchy".

Yes, there are moderators, and you shouldn't delibrately bait them. But I have yet to be banned, or penalized, and I disagree with the moderators just as often as I agree with them. I have a number of "enemies" (or people whom the author would see as enemies, if he were in my shoes), who have higher "rank" than I do. I also know of better players with lower "rank".

Personally, I think that the whole argument over rank and titles is absurd. I perceive people based on how they play, and what they say. I laugh when a newbee sees my prince rank and kisses up, and I laugh even harder when I see people afraid to disagree with a higher ranking poster.

Point is, these forums are here to post and discuss, not to rank and exclude.

-KhanMan of Sayen

Xuenay · October 17, 2000, 08:31

There might be more intellectual discussion in other forums, but I didnt bother to do the research.

The column was never intended to be taken seriously.

EDIT: But I can still argue and defend my column, if you want to.

I dont have time right now, but if you want to, I'll come back in a few hours and get a nice little argument. I love arguing.

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"Now Lone Star, you will see that Evil will always triumph, because Good is Dumb!"
-- Dark Helmet

Moderator, Final Fantasy Alpha Boards
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Xuenay (edited October 17, 2000).]</font>

catullus · October 23, 2000, 11:20

(rant)
Xuenay and I have more or less the same post count. We are both sort-of oldtimers, I even registered before the beginning of time itself. I've read the forum at least once a week, usually once a day, for years. Strangely, I never saw a post from Xuenay before.

I read and post to the general/strategy/help Civ2 forums. A newcomer to a Civ2 forum has two ways to find to find out if I'm a good player and a helpful participant: Read my posts or look at title. I think I've brought more insight into the game by my 150 articles than (e.g.) Alexander's Horse with his 7000. Before his new title, a newcomer might think (at least a short while) that AH was a true contributor.

I never read Off Topic. The subject on top, Dead horse, has among other uninteresting posts, this one from Seneca (whose posts I never saw before, but has managed 900 posts in 4 months...):

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
quote:
Originally posted by SilverDragon on 10-22-2000 09:23 PM
I thought this was about AH too.
52 posts to go until prince.

Such blatant spam
106 posts to go until King...

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

No, off topic is not (necessarily) the forum with the "highest intellectual level". And posting just for titles does happen, maybe with tongue in cheek sometimes. I have nothing against the off topic forum or the people using it. But the titles and post count distract when you come out from the smalltalk forum.

Sure, I'm kind of proud of being one of the True Veterans here, and that every newbie can see that. I guess I'll celebrate if I ever get out of warlord. But I serve Apolyton and the Civ2 community better by posting quality, not quantity.

C.
(unmounts his high horse to take a leak)

October 23, 2000, 22:33

I can understand why the on-topic-only posters live Cattulus feel so strongly about OTers bringing their post counts to the off-topic forums.

I know this would be difficult to implement, but what about breaking down the post counts by forums? Or listing the top 2 most forums each poster most frequently posts in? This could be a new section in the profile.

UltraSonix · October 23, 2000, 23:38

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>I think I've brought more insight into the game by my 150 articles than (e.g.) Alexander's Horse with his 7000. Before his new title, a newcomer might think (at least a short while) that AH was a true contributor.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
This is absolutely true. I arrived at the Civ3 forum in May, but only went to OT in Sep. During that period, I didn't even know about OT, and so anytime I saw AH post, I'd wonder about how the hell he managed to reach emperor... now I see emperors all the time.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

Narck · October 24, 2000, 00:18

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by catullus on 10-23-2000 11:20 AM</font>
A newcomer to a Civ2 forum has two ways to find to find out if I'm a good player and a helpful participant: Read my posts or look at title.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>The first option is the better way to determine whether or not you're a helpful participant.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Before his new title, a newcomer might think (at least a short while) that AH was a true contributor.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>They might, until they visit the OT for the first time

Xuenay · October 24, 2000, 02:19

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Sure, I'm kind of proud of being one of the True Veterans here, and that every newbie can see that. I guess I'll celebrate if I ever get out of warlord.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Me too. I feel the same about every word.

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"Now Lone Star, you will see that Evil will always triumph, because Good is Dumb!"
-- Dark Helmet

Moderator, Final Fantasy Alpha Boards

October 24, 2000, 16:46

There are intellectual threads.

Then there are spam threads.

Then there are anally retentive threads. Guess which one this is closest to fitting?

The whole concept of attempting to equate anyone's worth with a post count, small or large, is a joke. There are brilliant posters with tiny post counts, and there are deity-level posters who produce bursts of utter genius. The whole post-count debate is probably the most pointless and frustrating waste of time I've seen on this site.

I would be overjoyed if postcounts were dropped altogether. It just isn't worth all the sniping and back-biting that they generate, and people can be judged by the quality of their posts alone.

Xuenay · October 25, 2000, 08:52

In a bitter mood today, Lazarus?

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"Now Lone Star, you will see that Evil will always triumph, because Good is Dumb!"
-- Dark Helmet

Moderator, Final Fantasy Alpha Boards

October 25, 2000, 13:21

If you had much experience of the OT you'd know that the above mood was more or less average by my standards.

I'm serious, though. When we start getting people declaring a pride in how few posts they make here I'd say we have a clear indication of something highly dysfunctional taking place. Apolyton is getting a reputation of being post-count obsessed.

Check out the comment by catullus...

"The subject on top, Dead horse, has among other uninteresting posts, this one from Seneca (whose posts I never saw before, but has managed 900 posts in 4 months...):"

Now Seneca is an entertaining and well-informed debater, but he's just been dismissed in view of the fact that he posts on a regular basis. Is that healthy? I think not. It's an ignorant, knee-jerk reaction based on a postcount, and it's an excellent reason for ditching them entirely.

Someone mentioned the concept of "newbies" "sucking up" to long-term posters, or posters with high post counts. I've been posting on the OT for 18 months and I've never noticed that happening. Anyone "sucking up" to me would be treated with all the hysterical derision they deserve.

I judge people purely on the content of their posts. I respect powerful debaters, imaginative story-tellers, innovative Civ-posters and snappy wits. I couldn't give a monkey's sac for size of post count or date of registration. If someone can convince me that my approach is not as worthwhile as judging people by their post count (or lack of it, for the benefit of the inverted snobs) then I'll withdraw all comments with humble apologies.

I really can't see that happening, however.

UltraSonix · October 25, 2000, 18:12

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Anyone "sucking up" to me would be treated with all the hysterical derision they deserve.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>Did you know, I've always respects your posts - they provide great insight...

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Now Seneca is an entertaining and well-informed debater, but he's just been dismissed in view of the fact that he posts on a regular basis.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>Is the really the case?!

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

catullus · October 26, 2000, 05:17

Agreed, Lazarus, this discussion a bit retentive...

The off-topic forum is a great idea. It never will be my main forum, but in case I wanted smalltalk, it's better for the Civ2 forums I take the discussion over to off-topic than leave it among the hardcore game talks. I've seen web forums, e-mail lists, even usenet groups bog down in off-topic. It's a nasty sight. Serious posters flee, and you're left with a steadliy smaller well-knit group, difficult to approach by newcomers, impossible to approach by on-topic newcomers. A separate off-topic forum within the Civ2 universe will help both on-topic and off-topic discussions.

Nope, I don't take pride in low post-count. I don't know how you got that idea. I take pride in high content quality. I would have loved to manage posting over 200 posts a month. I see Seneca and you do that. I am just not able to do that on-topic. Seneca wasn't dismissed in any way, high or low count. I just noted that he replied to a post-count-poster (TM) with another post-count-post (TM).

"I judge people purely on the content of their posts. (...) I couldn't give a monkey's sac for size of post count or date of registration. If someone can convince me that my approach is not as worthwhile as judging people by their post count (or lack of it, for the benefit of the inverted snobs)..."

But of course. It's exactly that approach I want to see.
I'm concerned that some people are post-count obsessed, as demonstrated in said thread. And I'm concerned that Apolyton titles distract from posting content. Civ2 players are members of a diminishing community. Newcomers should be welcomed as peers, not as nomads among kings and princes.

C.

October 26, 2000, 13:50

Well said.