A confession ...

carnide_ · October 15, 2000, 13:22

I must confess: CIV is a game were you can always learn something new.
And I need to learn new things about CIV. Can someone help me?
- - -
I realized this need after a few gaming experiences. The first one was a while ago. I started a 1x game, 4 humans, no Ais, med map, King. I was the Vikings. I managed to go to Rep, grab Mikes+Bachs, and to grow *A LOT* with WLTPD. So far, nothing new. But then, someone built Polo's, saw the huge size of the Vikings, and could not understand how it was done. He zone messaged everyone, me included: "We are all leaving this game, because I found out this Viking guy is cheating a lot".
After a few messages I realized they have no idea of what was happening, and so the Viking guy should have been cheating.
I understood them when the same happened to me. So I need advice. They needed to learn a few new Civ tricks. So do I. Will someone help me?
Lets look at the details.
I will post now a couple of recent games, were I was outgrown, outgunned, and I dont have a clue how it was done.
The first one is this game:

I was playing the Germans. I was an early Rep, grabed Mikes+Bach, and was doing WLTPD by steps: grow all my cities, built settlers, waited for a while until the new ones reach size 3, then WLPD again. If you look carefully, you can see the Germans growing by steps.
The other guy, playing as the "Chinks" was a monarchy. I dont realize how he could had such a powergraph! Any ideas?
How can someone grow faster than WLTPD?
We are talking of 50+ cities. Aqueducts, harbours and irrigation in place. I still dont grasp how he made it.
- - -
Another game was also finished a while ago.
3 humans, Deity, no Ais. I was growing faster, grabed Ligthouse, start stealing techs, could not built Mikes in time, lost it to another CIV, but built Bach.
I was n.1 in Pop, research, money, production and land area. Managed to build SoL, turned Dem, and was n1 on every F11 demographic.
But the Civ who built Mikes, started researching faster than me, got Navigation, built Magellans, Sun Tzu, Leos, and sent a huge invasion force straitght to my capital, as if they were radar guided.
In one turn I lost my Civ (Capital+ wonders). I quited and looked at the saved file. More were coming, steering in perfection, to my old capital. No ship looking around, or exploring the map.
Any ideas how it could be made? I would like to learn, how to research faster than a Dem, n1 in pop, and in all other F11 deographics. How can someone build things so fast, and sail straigth to my capital?
- - -
Looks like I still have a lot of CIV to learn, dont you think?

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by carnide_ (edited October 15, 2000).]</font>

Hydey · October 15, 2000, 17:50

I prefer to play with people using the same rules as me. Including agreed playing rules (no cheating)

I hope you can find a good group to play with, the game is much better when you all agree as to how it should be played.

markusf · October 15, 2000, 18:03

I saw the saved file of the second game and i would think he cheated by looking at what he did.
Same amount of cities as you.
2 turns longer to develop a tech then you
he has all the wonders and a large amount of ships etc, i don't see how all those caravans could be built with such a small civ. Not only that he got all the war wonders and happy wonders.

In my tourny game i pulled off a fantastic win... here is what i did. I went monarchy and got hg... with that i was able to go 70% science 30% tax. I didn't let any city get over size 3 so i didn't have any entertainers.. This allowed me to expand about 2 times as fast as normal plus i had all that gold go incrimentally buy stuff. by 1ad i had 30 some cities... I was able to get all the war wonders, but the happy wonders where way out of reach as by that time my tech rate was 10 turns... And i couldn't go to dem because of the rebellion caused by my cities so i went and got the statue and went fundy.. In that game i also had 2 coal mines i used to crank out caravans out of size 3 cities producting 10 shields each...
but like carnide i get suspeicious when someone Consistantly gets all the wonders no matter how bad his start, and then always attacks your cap without ever exploring for it.

The Capo · October 15, 2000, 18:54

I totally suck at civilization, I have been playing since I was 12 years old, and I am now 18.

I have no idea how I can be this terrible, I have been told by people that I am not that bad, and I guess it is true. Every MP game I am in, I am always the weakest, with the least advances, with the worst treasury, no wonders, and an impotent army.

I cannot grasp how I can be so terrible at this game, and if someone would please either teach me how to play better, or play me and tell me why I suck, i would appreciate it.

Empress · October 15, 2000, 19:30

LOL@Capo, not at you but with you for I too am a terrible civ player, although I do get lucky sometimes. I think my trouble is that I just don't take the time to prepare good strategies. Either one falls into place or it doesn't. Regardless, I just play to have fun

On another note, I'm sorry Carnide that you were picked on by those meanie zone players. I think everyone here knows what a truely great civver you are

Do you suppose the other guy in that game had multiple computers set up to look at the game files??

carnide_ · October 15, 2000, 19:30

Interesting issues you raised in your post Markus.
My point is: The first time I saw it, I also went down that road. But then I realized: And if I'm wrong? And I
if I think I know everything about this game, but I'm missing something? If I'm missing something, I want to know about it.
If you know, by sure, the answer, let us all know.
Beacuse you looked at the saved files, and I only looked at the final one.
If you are sure, plz, post the files with a note saying what you saw, from one file to the other, that enables you to reach that conclusion.
TIA (Thx In Advance)

carnide_ · October 15, 2000, 19:49

Hi Empress.
Even with 2 computers, I still dont know how he made it.

carnide_ · October 15, 2000, 21:52

Hi Capo.
Did you ever tried to save all the turns in a MP game, and then look at the files to see how the others have played?

October 15, 2000, 22:51

Don't forget that pop is not the only thing in pg - wonders are worth quite a bit too.

When I first played you carnide, making my first tentative steps into the MP arena, I thought you were the biggest cheating SOB that walked the planet!
BUT, then I too learnt about ICS and WLTPD

That's your point I know - what else is there?

Well, I know I rocked in a few games where I just kept getting Advanced tribes.....

The pg seems to adjust itself over time and is a very crude relative guide indeed - as we know it flattens at the top. Once you get a lot of cities over a certain size it doesn't make much diff in the pg.

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*THE DEITY*
#8388924

Mercantile · October 16, 2000, 03:03

Carnide , perhaps you were a victum of this rules .txt cheating blitz that seems to be rampant in certain fields of civ. Two others have admitted to it , and they were both big zone players. Maybe it was a riot factor thingy and the person was using two computers. Other than that, i would be clueless to offer another explanation

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Do you shovel snow in your birkenstocks?

DaveV · October 16, 2000, 08:31

Carnide - a few thoughts. First, I think the F11 production demographic might be misleading for a republic if it shows total, rather than net, shields. For example, say you have 20 cities producing 100 shields and supporting 40 units. That means you have 60 shields left to build stuff. If your opponent is in monarchy and has 30 cities producing 80 shields and supporting 60 units, he has 80 shields to build stuff.

A trick which helps find the other guy's capital is watching the city names. For instance, if you see New York or Boston, you know Washington is probably nearby. There's also the "nearest city" trick in the city screen (a dubious tactic, IMO, but seems to be generally accepted around here). Finally, from Ming's cheat thread:

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Any city that has built a wonder may be located using the "Find City" command. You get an exact location, even if you haven't discovered the city yet.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I've never used this "feature", but others might...

Adam Smith · October 16, 2000, 08:59

Carnide:
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>I would like to learn, how to research faster than a Dem, n1 in pop, and in all other F11 deographics.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>When I play against the AI I am usually not #1 in anything (except maybe manufacturing) and still win handily. Part of this has to do with how the demographics are calculated. Research output is usually measured by the literacy demographic, which is affected by obtaining certain tech advances (eg, writing) and things like the number of libraries you have, IIRC. Your opponent could have a full-blown super science city and only the library counts toward the literacy demographic. Part of this has to do with how one plays. For example, a player who hoards money will have a larger treausry, and be #! in the income demographic, as opposed to a player who uses money for incremental rush buying.

carnide_ · October 16, 2000, 09:43

DaveV: Great post. I learned something new.
"How to find a city with a wonder".
Neat!

Thx a lot.
Now, that could explain the radar guidance for the invasion fleet, dont you think?

My Wife Hates CIV · October 16, 2000, 09:52

This is what makes CIV MP (IMHO) less than fun. For those who say they are no good at CIV, you're probably not that bad. People get these high powergraphs by playing the game to the extreme. Every little trade arrow, shield, food... micromanaging every move, increment buying and every other little loop hole the game offers. Every now and than I can keep up with a good group - but it's no fun. It's work.

The down side to this is that those people take freakin forever to move. bah!

The Capo · October 16, 2000, 09:59

I got so freakin lucky the other night, I was playing this game with three clowns, and they must have been gay lovers or something because when they found out that I really sucked at this game (maybe from this thread since they contacted me), they just started jumping me, it was three on one, and it sucked ass.

I decided that I would not fight them, but would super defend everything and build boats galore and settle everywhere. After a couple of hours, they were nothing compared to me, and started *****ing that "I wasn't playing right" becuase they said in Deuls I am supposed to fight. So sine my tech was so high, I developed Cannons and Dragoons, while they were still using Knights and stuff. Since I had such a huge amount of cities, I was able to maintain a republic (sounds contradictory doesn't it?) with a rather impressive Armed force.

They were *****ing that it was taking a long time to play, and I started trading with them instead of attacking, they said they would leave if I didn't fight back, so I said fine. Since my cities were walled and musketeered, they were helpless, and I sent shipload after shipload of Cannons and Dragoons at their cities, eventually conquering one of them, after this everyone left.

I realized one thing, I suck because I don't fight early. Maybe I don't suck, I just don't like to fight.

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"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

-Winston Churchill

One Love.

The Capo · October 16, 2000, 10:01

Alright, Carney, here is the deal.

I challenge you to a game, not a deul, but a game, me v. you with five AI. I don't want to be friends unless we must be friends. I just want to see how glaringly bad I am compared to you, because you seem to know what you are doing.

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"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

-Winston Churchill

One Love.

OzzyKP · October 16, 2000, 10:16

Hey Carnide, who was the "Chinks" in that game of yours?

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Ozzy - King of Heavy Metal
Ozzy - Leader of the Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Greater Sayen

Crustacian · October 16, 2000, 16:38

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by carnide_ on 10-16-2000 09:43 AM</font>
DaveV: Great post. I learned something new.
"How to find a city with a wonder".
Neat!

Thx a lot.
Now, that could explain the radar guidance for the invasion fleet, dont you think?
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I don't think the find city thing is limited to cities with wonders, but also seems to include promanent cities.

You can not allways just go straight to another player city due to geographical variations. True the cities location is the center of the screen but many maps do not reveal by the clicking method whether that city is coastal or inland. And sailing straight to those coordinates is not allways possible without at least some dead end exploration.

So if you reviewed another players "perfectly" plotted invasion route and it seemed extreemly unlikely they would have navigated in the dark straight there, or if they allways seem do this sort of thing it would be suspicious.

carnide_ · October 16, 2000, 17:01

Excelent aproach, Crusty.

brocher · October 16, 2000, 18:58

what does WLTPD mean?

finbar · October 16, 2000, 19:46

We Love The President Day. Growth. If you've got a majority of happy citizens in a city, and no unhappy citizens, and surplus food, your city adds a citizen every turn until any of the aforementioned provisos rear their ugly head.

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Founder, ACS Pedantry Institute
Founder, ACS Gourmet Recipe Exchange
Horse & Hydey Wrangler
Finally! A Hyphen!
Mono Rules!
#33984591

brocher · October 16, 2000, 19:52

thanks i was scratcing my head about that one <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by finbar on 10-16-2000 07:46 PM</font>
We Love The President Day. Growth. If you've got a majority of happy citizens in a city, and no unhappy citizens, and surplus food, your city adds a citizen every turn until any of the aforementioned provisos rear their ugly head.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Curumbor Elendil · October 17, 2000, 00:07

Regarding the powergraph...I notice that sometimes it weights land area more than population, which may be biased toward monarchists over republicans. In monarchy you can build more settlers (more shields, more workers because of greater happiness) and thus more cities, whereas in republic you have fewer but larger cities. Thus, a person following the keep-building-settlers strategy might run ahead on the powergraph even if he's way behind you in population and technology.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Nap Bonaparte · October 17, 2000, 00:53

LOL......I guess that you aimed this thread at me Carnide. The 2nd game you mentioned was our 4th round tourny game with you, Crusty, and myself. Since you cant understand how I did the production and R&D I guess that I will take it as a compliment. The funny thing is, the production and R&D were no big deal. The only thing that was difficult for me was launching a full-scale assault against you in Republic,advancing against you while in anarchy, and delivering the attack while in Democracy....without having even one unhappy city. I will respond to your concerns in a continuing series of threads. I cant type very well so this will take a while.First.....a few generalities. The last save I have before I attacked you was from 960 AD (about 4 turns before you quit). I had 24 cities and 32 units to your 25 cities and 24 units. You were ahead of me in pop 3.6 mil to 2.8 mil. I dont know how the game calculates land area but I had settled 3 continents....I had control of the entire northern hemisphere while you and Crusty shared the southern hemisphere. I led you in manufactured goods 137 mtons to 116 mtons. We were tied for 1st in Literacy at 32%(whatever that means). I led you in productivity 69-60. My city improvements consisted of 13 temples,1 library,1 courthouse, 1 aquaduct and 1 harbor for a total maintenance cost of 20 gold/turn. You had 22 temples and 5 cathedrals for a cost of 37 gold/turn. Since I had Mikes you had a lot more invested in infrastructure development and maitainence. Now for some specific topics.....

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" First France......then the WORLD!"

SmartFart · October 17, 2000, 00:59

I doubt i can tell you anything new. Pyramids could help alot in both powergraph and science,but they require at least one happiness wonder to work in its full potential.
Monarchy is very powerfull thing for expansion.

Don't play zoners. They're almost all cheaters.

Nap Bonaparte · October 17, 2000, 01:19

Lesson #1: Research and Development(or how to generate trade arrows)
The 2nd city I founded around 3600 BC was Brundism. It had a whale and a gold special and I designated it as my future SSC. I did a lot of improvements with roads and irrigation and by 960 AD it was size 9...the largest city on the board. It had a temple, courthouse, library, harbor, aquaduct and Colossus. Brundism generated 59 trade arrows(2 were corrupted). Of course I cant take credit for all this, Carnide was responsible for over 1/4 of the total trade(15 arrows) from 2 trade routes that he established.Brundism generated 52 beakers per turn , more than Carnides top 3 cities together(Little Bighorn 18,Slim Buttes 16, Wounded Knee 14).This is with both of our science rates set at 60%. I was trying to build HG here early on(HG acts just like Colossus in the city it is built in while in Monarchy....ie 1 extra trade arrow per trade generating square)but I went for Trade 1st and the game didnt let me select pottery until it was too late. Carnide beat me by 1 turn to HG so I built Colossus on the next turn. I wasnt happy about that but it was the best thing that could have happened. I seemed to have had an extensive tech edge over Carnide until he stole 4 techs from me. I employed a silk strategy over the early part of the game....ie trade arrows and production over pop growth. I fell behind in pop and cities but was able to build most of the important wonders.....especially Mikes and Pyramids. To be continued..........

October 17, 2000, 05:41

OK, so what Nappy is saying makes sense to me:

* carnide was leading the pg and biggest in pop.

* Nappy concentrated on arrows and R&D rather than pop growth. This can get a lot of techs early in the game.

I'm often behind on techs when I go for pop growth.
So why does markus think there is cheating going on here?
Looking at just one save late in the game where carnide is researching at a higher rate doesn't mean it was always so...

What I really want to know is whether the Napster used the 'find city feature'

Lesson 2 coming right up....

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*THE DEITY*
#8388924

Crustacian · October 17, 2000, 16:52

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by SmartFart on 10-17-2000 12:59 AM</font>

Don't play zoners. They're almost all cheaters.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

SF...What type of cheating methods do you think the Zone players use most? Is it modified rules text theings or what?

finbar · October 17, 2000, 19:38

Didn't Moker answer this the other week? He cited amended rules.txt and made reference to some form of hack that lets the player do pretty much anything.

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Founder, ACS Pedantry Institute
Founder, ACS Gourmet Recipe Exchange
Horse & Hydey Wrangler
Finally! A Hyphen!
Mono Rules!
#33984591

Crustacian · October 17, 2000, 20:02

yeah i guess he did, yet I was interested to see if Smart Farts perspective on it.
I wonder if it is so rampant on the zone how do they find a sucker left to play who does not know of this?