A confession ...

[Hydey]

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by iadkins on 10-17-2000 05:41 AM</font>
What I really want to know is whether the Napster used the 'find city feature'


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I know of the find city feature,it is not a cheat IMHO
just part of the game.

I also know of the 2 or more computer feature , now that is a cheat.

[oedo]

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by SmartFart on 10-17-2000 12:59 AM</font>
Don't play zoners. They're almost all cheaters.
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this is going little too far. in the zone games I had (more than 100, less than 1000) I played with 3 cheaters and maybe 2 people I´m not sure if they cheat of if they were just damn lucky. so I´d say your theory is a myth.

[Ming]

Not all zone players are cheaters... and probably, not even the majority. However, they do have a habit of dropping out of games when things go badly for them... which is just as bad in my book

[Spider]

Ok, Oedo, how about this theory of mine:

Don't play with zoners. They're almost all "little teenie boys".

That's the way I see things.

[Crustacian]

Oedo are you claiming you know cheating was limited to only those times you happened to be aware? Maybe there was more than you know.
Of course a person should play wherever they have fun.

[Ming]

Well... the zone is good for getting some practice and playing time in. You can usually find a game, and it gives newbees a chance to experience MP. Nothing wrong with that.

[Nap Bonaparte]

Lesson #1: Research & Development(cont). Just wanted to add that that in 960 AD I could research a new tech every 4 turns in Republic. Two turns later, I switched to Democracy and could learn every 3 turns but by then I already had Navigation and I throttled my R&D way back to generate gold to rush build caravals.

[Nap Bonaparte]

Lesson #2: PRODUCTION
I used every high shield/trade special I could at the expense of food and pop. I wanted to keep my city sizes down until I built Mikes to prevent rioting. My capitol city had a whale, silk and a coal.At size 3 it was cranking out 10 shields and 5 beakers a turn. In 960 AD at size six it was cranking out 16 shields/turn. I had 2 other size 3 cities built next to coal mines that were cranking out 9-10 shields per turn.I also had food cities that were cranking out settlers. At 960 AD I had mined 4 squares worth 18 shields. My opponent had exactly ONE mine in his ENTIRE civ worth 3 shields.AS will be discussed in a future installment, the cities I built on different continents outside my homeland were very spread out and I was able to cherry pick the very best locations...all had whales and most had 1 other special. As far as all the ships were concerned, I used gold to rush build the majority of them after I throttled back my science rate. To be continued....

I know we shouldn't rush to judgement about the C word without evidence and so on and so forth, but WOW take a look at that powergraph


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Fear Horse! The Scourge of Cant!

[oedo]

careful Crusty, ´cause actually I think all apolytoners are cheaters. I just couldn´t prove it so far

seriously, I keep tons of savegames on my HD. complete sets of games saved turn by turn. mostly I delete those saves immediately after the game, because they simply aren´t worth it being reviewed. but when I had a close good game, or when I loose a game to someone I didn´t expect, I mostly take some minutes to verify them. I certainly can´t detect all cheats. and I was very surprised about EON´s confession for example. but I still believe that all forms of cheating are detectable. so Crusty, you can bet I am aware.

on the other hand - and here I´m running out of arguments - they´re actually way too many quitters at the zone. this was really annoying in the beginning. that´s why meanwhile I don´t just play anyone who comes along. but there´s still a big list of trustworthy playes at the zone I really enjoy to play with. it´s a list comparable with the rah´s thank-you-list, just bigger :P.

you see, the zone is not as bad as some people want to believe.

[SmartFart]

Sorry. It should stay 'almost every zoner i played against is cheater or retire-in-the-middle-of-the-game-without-any-explanationers'.

I hadn't played on the zone about 1 year or so and it is possible that situation is actually improved. Especially when you hanging there long time and make yourself a list of trustworthy players.

My last 2 games went like this...

-host dropped out,reloaded and destroyed my invasion forces in single turn (huge naval invasion from 4 directions,i was suspicious and i saved a game and checked out opponent's coastal production before and after dropout).

-my capital was found and destroyed in 4th turn of possible 4 (double movement).

I can name numerous situations where i am absolutely sure i was overcheated,but i will stop right here.

No offense

[Crustacian]

Oedo,
Glad to hear you are on top of things regarding those you play with, and that there is a good group of reliable players at the Zone also. Sounds like in spite of this, even for you, it can hard to be sure though. Having a group of people you know to be reliable is the best way I guess. Works for me too.
It does sound like modified games are very common. I have still never yet loaded a game in such a way as to be able to examine an opponants stuff. I would rather take a player at their word to be playing with a normal game.
After a game is over if not passworded, I have sometimes looked at opponants styles, or at the end of a game we trade maps, that kind of thing only.

[cavebear]

First, I suspect that *most* of the Zone players are essentially honest. However, I think the number of players who cheat in large or small ways is much higher than most people want to admit.

I pick up a fair number of games in the Zone (most of which never get finished even with limited goals like "to 500BC"), but I try to stick with GameLeague players. Not that they can't cheat, too, but the major (and detectable) cheats are less likely to be used because there are penalties when found out. Even then, that is more a deterrence than an actuality. But it gives some protection.

Non-GameLeague players have no threat held over them at all, and that makes me more hesitant. Even if caught, they really don't care, or they just come back with a new name and go merrily on their way.

Many cheats are detectable with analysis of saved files (hack software, for example). But 2 major ones are not (and I'm sure there are others of which I am not aware): 2 computers and examining save files between sessions. For the first, it is too easy and the advantage is too great. I can hardly imagine how a good player who does that would ever lose (though they must, or perhaps it gets boring and they stop playing). Maybe a good honest player can still beat a poor cheating one, I don't know. For the second kind (looking at files between sessions), at least the benefit doesn't last as long, though the same information is learned.

As a case in point, I offer the fact that in the (planned, but not held) GameLeague Triumvirate Tourney, the Tourney administrator *allowed* revealed maps between sessions because HE ASSUMED IT WOULD BE DONE ANYWAY. I think that says it all right there...

I guess that's enough on the subject on my part.

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Proud participant in GameLeague...

Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance...

[Ming]

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by cavebear on 10-18-2000 04:59 PM</font>
Non-GameLeague players have no threat held over them at all, and that makes me more hesitant. Even if caught, they really don't care, or they just come back with a new name and go merrily on their way.

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Some of us might find that comment insulting

No threat is needed to keep some of us regular MP forum players honest. Some of us are just honest people looking for an honest game.
One of the reasons I don't even consider GameLeague is because the whole ranking system is a reason some might want to cheat. Heck, give me a bunch of people who are playing just for the fun of the game... less reason to cheat

[Crustacian]

But I like the fun and surprize of actual discovery.

I like patrols that may or may not find something approaching.

Here is my suggestion for this "Triumvirate Tourney":

Instead of viewing each others stuff...
Why not save some effort and just mention in the chat log that you have 5 fully loaded transports of a mix between howies, spys, and mechs, give the coordinants of them as well as any supporting ships...don't forget to reveil if any are on the square with an AEGEUS cruiser so they don't wast valuable resourses by guessing the most effective means of dispatching them.

If thats too wordy just mention you have a huge invasion force 2 turns away from his capital centered on such and such a square.

Yes and BTW Stalingrad is 3 turns away from MC...

Better yet...Cavebear tell them to just play with revealed maps option from the start!!
You had a cool tourny Cavebear. I am glad it was not like that.

[cavebear]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Ming on 10-18-2000 06:16 PM</font>
Some of us might find that comment insulting

No threat is needed to keep some of us regular MP forum players honest. Some of us are just honest people looking for an honest game.

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I was referring to Zone players. Apolyton polices it's own community (rather well, too, I might add). Chill...

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Proud participant in GameLeague...

Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance...

[Ming]

Thanks for clarifying that

[carnide_]

Thx for your posts, Nappy

It is sad that some people cheat, but it is just as sad that whenever somebody does well, they are always accused of cheating. It's a sad world

Okay here's my take. Zone players are street walkers - they are only interested in quickies and will do anything to get em. Gameleague players are working in a brothel, lots of competition for top dollar. Apolyton players are at the high class end - they like to develop long term relationships with their clients


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Fear Horse! The Scourge of Cant!

[Nap Bonaparte]

Lesson #3: Exploring
I admit that I dont understand the find city feature. And I was hoping that my distinguished opponent could explain the radar-guided triremes......since he seemed to home in on my SSC with a trireme full of diplos 4-5 turns after he got Lighthouse, guessed the right compass direction and crossed a nice stretch of ocean. At least when I went looking for my opponents, they had found me 1st so I had some intel on the compass direction.......Carnide was to the west and Crusty was to the south. I admit that I had a homing beacon for my invasion force that led to the heart of Carnide's civ.....that homing beacon was called "Cedar Creek". More about that later.
Anyway, very early on one of my warriors reached the North Pole and traveled west until he reached a large continent that spread to the south. Found a couple of friendly archers in some huts and the 3 amigos went exploring. Tipped probably 8-10 more huts, got a couple advanced tribes. Through the wonders of Mikes and Pyramids became a self contained civ of 7 cities...too far away from the Eastern homeland to generate trade arrows but all cherry picking specials to get good production. When I got to the southern edge of the continent, built ports, diplos and triremes. Finally found Carnide about 15-20 turns before the invasion...just to the south of my new western civ. After stealing techs from 3 of his cities, Carnide rushed some vet triremes to the area to stop my incursion. Carnide and I were racing for SoL...he had democracy and I was 2 turns away from researching it. The diplo on my trireme bribed 1 of his vet triremes and took off on a joyride through his civ hoping to find a city, any city, to steal democracy. The 1st city I bumped into was Cedar Creek. Unfortunately the tech I stole was theology so he built SoL on the next turn, but Cedar Creek happened to be the site of JSB. Instead of SoL, I built Leos and after getting Navigation launched an invasion from 10 ports to the NW,N,NE, and E to capture Cedar Creek and anything else valuable around it.Three main amphibious groups approached Cedar Creek from 140 degrees of compass bearing. I tried to stay 2 squares from his coastline to avoid detection but he found me and a major naval battle ensued. I noticed enemy triremes coming from coastal squares to the south(probably rush built) and sent a scout caraval with a diplo to investigate. Found a coastal road square...dropped off a diplo, and and quickly found Big Mound and the capitol of Little Bighorn( only 3 squares away from Cedar Creek). The really cool thing about this was that my eastern amphibious force, while still being 1 turn away from Cedar Creek, was within range of Little Bighorn so I got to launch the attack 1 turn earlier that anticipated(which is important in trying to attack under democracy). Game,set,match.

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" First France......then the WORLD!"

[oedo]

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Alexander's Horse on 10-18-2000 11:20 PM</font>
Okay here's my take. Zone players are street walkers - they are only interested in quickies and will do anything to get em. Gameleague players are working in a brothel, lots of competition for top dollar. Apolyton players are at the high class end - they like to develop long term relationships with their clients

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yeah horsie, this could explain why most apolytoners are married and most zoners aren´t.

[rah]

Thanks Odeo, it was refreshing to hear someone defend the zone here. I have avoided the zone due to what I have heard here. Maybe if you posted a list of people that you have played with that you don't feel should be painted negatively by the broad stroke of Apolytoners, some of us might go out there and actually look for a game.

Playing with people repeatedly builds trust and comraderie. But you can't play someone twice, till you've played them once.

RAH

[carnide_]

Thx for the posts, Nappy.
I really enjoied reading your descriptions.
Looking to play with you soon.