A word about GameLeague and the new league...

KhanMan · November 12, 2000, 04:59

As many of you are aware, Gameleague has, for sometime, offered an interesting way of playing Civ2 mp, using a system of per-set alliances between players called "tribes".

You may also know that there have been repeated problems with cheating in Gameleague.

It has recently been announced that the player known as Sean is also EyesOfNight, once know as QuickAcorn and Infusco. Sean/Eyes is a proven cheater, as, by his own admission, he altered the rules.txt in a game with Alexander's Horse, without his opponent's knowledge of consent. (a save of this, as proof, is availible to any interested:

khanmaned@hotmail.com

Many of you have played him, and know him to be also a very disrespectful player.

Sean/Eyes is also the current administrator of the Strategies section of Gameleague.

When some of the members of Gameleague voiced concern that Gameleague was employing a known cheater, the administrators responded that they made the rules, and, as there are no formal rules, they decide what goes. As such, they decided not to take any action, and to ignore all accusations as unapplicable to Sean.

With respect towards Gameleague, members of the honorable tribes of Sayen, Knightstalkers, and OWL have chosen to leave Gameleague play and form there own league, which will not tolerate or employ cheaters.

This fledgling league can be found at:
http://civilizationtribes.50megs.com/

For those of you who have wondering what was going on over in Gameleague, and to quiet rumors or accusations you may hear, I have submitted this thread as an explanation.

If you wish to make any comments or suggestions about the new or old leagues, Chuckle's thread is also availible.

-KhanMan

November 12, 2000, 06:20

Unbelievable really!
And I can't believe that people say that changing the rules.txt is not a cheat because it helps both sides!!
BUT this is only true ONLY if you know about it!
Ming also concluded this was a full on cheat, from memory.

It seems very poor judgement by GL to appoint someone with this track record.
They lose credibility.
Very unwise move.
And Sean's posts sound just as obnoxious as Eyes. He hasn't changed IMHO.

------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

November 12, 2000, 10:24

To use Sean's knowledge in the role of a Moderator was not a bad idea.
He does have knowledge of good strategy.
The problem, IMHO, was that is active mind couldn't stop there.
I proposed a "Hack League", for people who wanted to compete on that level, but it was met with close minded rejection.
Being a mere Cheat is not a problem, it's being an undiscovered Cheat that causes the grief.
Sean had much insight to offer, if you can put up with the negativiity he displays on some days.
An alternate League is not bad, because competition is good.
But to slam dunk the Moderator's for seeing the positives is not right.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by IamSlowwHand (edited November 12, 2000).]</font>

KenThur · November 12, 2000, 10:57

Puke! Gag! ):
For some to defend / justify an honesty & personality-"challenged" slimeball based on the fact that "he has much to offer" = horse manure! That's like saying let's consult w/ the guy that figured out how gas the Japanese subway... he only killed & ruined a few lives. Gosh, look at the people he didn't kill or make sick.
I'll bet U voted for Clinton?! On the logic that he only banged teenagers once in awhile in OUR White House. It was just little white lies he told to protect his family. Look at all he knows about manipulating public opinion. PUKE! Multiple PUKES.

That 1 sick individual(?) has caused more grief & bad blood & wasted time(like this) than any 6 other people in the gaming community. He is ONE SICK PUPPY & i'v told him that directly. (only wish i could personally).
It IS a true shame that a genuis like he obviously is, wastes it on mostly negative endevors.
===========================================
As for the "new, improved" league... i'm certainly interested in re-joining as part of my re-activating Civ play.
Please contact me or give a link to where U R forming up.

Wezil · November 12, 2000, 12:04

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by deity on 11-12-2000 05:20 AM</font>
Unbelievable really!
And I can't believe that people say that changing the rules.txt is not a cheat because it helps both sides!!
BUT this is only true ONLY if you know about it!

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

There are many in GL that don't see this as a problem or see it as a 'minor' cheat (ie deserving of a minor penalty). Sad really.

Khanman - Good luck in your efforts but w/o the sanctioned forum space provided by ACS (to an inept crew presently) your chances are slim. GL will continue in it's substandard form for awhile yet until the powers that be here realise it is a problem.

edit: KenThur - ummm...well said? Why people associate with players proven to have no credibility I'll never understand.

------------------
"These were giants [The ‘Hellfire’ Club]. They had standards - not like these whimpering mashers who keep fouling our headlines today."

Free the D**d Threads!!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Wezil (edited November 12, 2000).]</font>

November 12, 2000, 12:06

Counterpoints:
1) Yes, we could learn from the "Gassers" a method of defense.

2) I did in fact vote for Clinton, on both elections.
Why? I was tired of double digit inflation and unemployment. Not to mention a national debt (now payed, thank you very much).
It was the theory when I was in school that we would ALWAYS have unemployment of around 8%, due to people switching jobs, not wanting to work, etc. Ahem, the educator's were proven wrong.
Paying off the National Debt and now having suplus speaks for itself.

3) Who he bangs is more his wife's concern than mine.

4) I don't think he's had sex with a teenager as President, though being with Monica might be counted as beastiality, as she's a hog.

5) If you're going to retch, please do so in private.
It's disgusting.

6) Though I think there's more to Civ than who can get in the other's face first, the Strategy section being put together is well thought out, and written in a way that is understood easily.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by IamSlowwHand (edited November 12, 2000).]</font>

Wezil · November 12, 2000, 12:10

You miss the point Sloww. As good as Eyes/Acorn/Infusco/Sean may be for the content of GL he is the kiss of death for serious players. I don't play GL b/c of prior unresolved absurdities in the league, but I can assure you this latest maneuver does absolutely nothing to increase my faith in the organisation. The opposite actually.

------------------
"These were giants [The ‘Hellfire’ Club]. They had standards - not like these whimpering mashers who keep fouling our headlines today."

Free the D**d Threads!!

November 12, 2000, 12:18

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Wezil on 11-12-2000 11:10 AM</font>
You miss the point Sloww. As good as Eyes/Acorn/Infusco/Sean may be for the content of GL he is the kiss of death for serious players. I don't play GL b/c of prior unresolved absurdities in the league, but I can assure you this latest maneuver does absolutely nothing to increase my faith in the organisation. The opposite actually.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Wez, I respect you greatly, but I don't miss the point.
He is only a "kiss of death" if unknown.
He makes no effort to play League games of any fashion.
He does offer insight.

The basics are, don't play anyone you're not familiar with (sad but true), and don't throw out the baby with the bath water, as it were.

AND BTW, I would NEVER have thought in months past that I would be coming to the defense of the person also known as EyesofNight.
NOW, I can look forward to both being grilled for doing so by the public at large, and by Sean, if in Eyes persona, saying "Blank Off dude, I don't need the support."

The world turns, and open minded people look for the positives, while guarding against the negatives.
THAT is the point.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by IamSlowwHand (edited November 12, 2000).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by IamSlowwHand (edited November 12, 2000).]</font>

Wezil · November 12, 2000, 12:51

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Wez, I respect you greatly, but I don't miss the point.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Mutual. Now that the niceties are out of the way...

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>He is only a "kiss of death" if unknown.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Actually I think it is the other way around. The only way Eyes would be tolerable to many in the Civ community were if he were unknown. Sadly, this is Eyes we are debating. A person completely incapable of any kind of low profile. It's not in his nature.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>He makes no effort to play League games of any fashion.
He does offer insight.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

He will play GL again. You, I and he all know it. As to his insight.... geez Sloww. What bit of condescending, arrogant, insulting dribble that he posts do you find insightful? If there is insight in there I don't see it when I stop reading after the first line.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>The basics are, don't play anyone you're not familiar with (sad but true), and don't throw out the baby with the bath water, as it were.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Again, THERE is the point. Folks are familiar with him.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>AND BTW, I would NEVER have thought in months past that I would be coming to the defense of the person also known as EyesofNight.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

At one time I didn't understand the scorn and ire he raised either. I do now.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>NOW, I can look forward to both being grilled for doing so by the public at large, and by Sean, if in Eyes persona, saying "Blank Off dude, I don't need the support."

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I won't grill you. I just disagree completely. As to Eyes....Yeah, I can at least expect a flaming.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>The world turns, and open minded people look for the positives, while guarding against the negatives.
THAT is the point.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Then guard.

------------------
"These were giants [The ‘Hellfire’ Club]. They had standards - not like these whimpering mashers who keep fouling our headlines today."

Free the D**d Threads!!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Wezil (edited November 12, 2000).]</font>

November 12, 2000, 15:45

i think anew league is a great idea, we can get away from people like EyesofBS and Slowwmind...

anyway, i would enjoy greatly, playing in a tribe game with some apolytoners, you guys have the rep for honest good gaming...

unlike gameleague...
petty crap, and EyesofNight...
does there really need to be another reason to play mature people?

------------------
Prince of Gameleague...

Lessor Sayen of the Sayen Tribe...

November 12, 2000, 17:00

Actually Clinton wasn't responsible for the good economy. Whenever there's a good economy it's usually because of the president before them. And in this case it has nothing to do with the president. Clinton just hit the office at the right time. Especially since the internet was just beginning to take off and E-Commerce was beginning. If anyone should be taking credit for the great economy it should be Al Gore since he did after all invent the internet.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Sean Leitzinger (edited November 12, 2000).]</font>

November 12, 2000, 17:11

Oh, one more thing. If I were to say start my own tribe and enter it in your tribe page under a new name and IP, wouldn't that mean then you have cheaters in your league? For that matter how does that make you better than gameleague? And while we're on the topic, how are you going to keep cheaters out? Sounds to me like you're grilling gameleague for something you're going to have too. League of honorable players...HA! Ever ladder that has some sort of competitive element to it will have cheaters. It's that way with every single game there is. Deal with it.

November 12, 2000, 17:15

Did you receive my mail, KhanMan?

Wezil · November 12, 2000, 18:12

Sean - There is a big difference between people sneaking around under an alias *cough* and a league intentionally accepting those it knows (and have been proven) to be cheats.

------------------
"These were giants [The ‘Hellfire’ Club]. They had standards - not like these whimpering mashers who keep fouling our headlines today."

Free the D**d Threads!!

Ming · November 12, 2000, 20:10

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Sean Leitzinger on 11-12-2000 04:11 PM</font>
Ever ladder that has some sort of competitive element to it will have cheaters. It's that way with every single game there is. Deal with it.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Another reason why I only play with people I know and trust from Apolyton. What good is a ranking system when all it seems to do is bring out the worst in people.

KenThur · November 12, 2000, 20:37

Ming: it brings the best out in people too. That is why we have what we have & the socialist have what they don't have. (well said,aye? Perhaps i should run for office?!)

Sean, Eyes, etc : U R correct (once again)! It's not the Executive branch of our gov't that controls the money & makes or (better yet) repeals laws.
It's the Legislative (Congress for those of you that...)!
And in addition to what U cited Sean, as important & extremely POWERFUL... the Chairman of the Federal Reserve. That little group of unelected banksters that can (& do) make or break our economy!

Sean... keep up these lucid, respectful remarks & U'll have us, & more importantly, yourself believing U have begun to turn some of that intelligence into widsom! Often referred to as "maturing".
Best to U.

------------------
"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

Ming · November 12, 2000, 20:53

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by KenThur on 11-12-2000 07:37 PM</font>
Ming: it brings the best out in people too

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Even if it does, the cheating makes it all insignificant.

November 12, 2000, 22:03

"Sean... keep up these lucid, respectful remarks & U'll have us, & more importantly, yourself believing U have begun to turn some of that intelligence into widsom! Often referred to as "maturing". "

I can very easily become a **** again. THere is no maturing involved, it's simply a matter of what personality I choose to appear in. It's kind of what sloww and I concluded, the computer is an escape for our subconscious. In my case I simply let my subconscious run rampant. Don't talk down to me as if I were a child learning to communicate as an adult. You may talk to me as if I were a human on the otherside of this digital world. You may even find a common ground, and feel like you're getting to know me. However I simply am not there. I wear my mask of sanity loosely, right now it's in place. Don't take it for granted though. I can very easily replace it with a more gruesome and hideous mask.

Kwang · November 12, 2000, 22:58

If you wish to learn more about this controversy: please head to the GameLeague forum. There, I (and the majority of the players) clearly explain our position.

Mercantile · November 13, 2000, 01:55

You know i was thinking of joining gameleague, and although most apolytoners have slightly more negative than positive feelings about it, the one thing remains.

Gameleague has a rep for allowing a different interpretation of the rules

Now if rules like that appeal to people, and to some it does, great go ahead and play in that particular ladder system.

However to the majority of civers here, it's like dumping oil into water, the two don't mix.

Therefore, Apolytoners will continue to play Apolytoners and Gameleaguers will play Gameleaguers, with some who will play both. I don't understand why gameleaguers try to recruit apolytoners to play when they know full well that the interpretation of the rules is totally different.

The only rules i play by are "Rah's rules", anyone who has played with him or his brother, know these rules off by heart and everyone has a proven track record for being honest, and not cheating.

The only other rules i play by are my own code of honour. I play for fun and for a challenge, and i learn everytime i lose, which means i am learning at an astronomical rate

This new league sounds fun, and it's a shame if it is infiltrated by people who cheat knowing full well what is acceptable and not in a particular game. Why don't you just let this new league be and continue to play in your "cheater" league, don't you realize that this is why people are starting a new league. They don't like you RULES

My theory is if you don't know the rules, ASK, and if you don't , then assume whatever trickery your up to isn't allowed.

I don't mean to insult Gameleague and it's players, as i have never even played within this group, but i see a clear message from Apolytoners, it states "we don't play with cheaters, but you are more than welcome to play with us if you can be trusted"

my .02 cents

KhanMan · November 13, 2000, 06:00

Slow-What, exactly, do you mean by "slam dunking the moderators"? Simply put, I and some other Gameleague players wish to form a league where there are firm rules against cheating (not present in GL), and where all cheaters are banned (also not the case in GL). While I remain respectful of Kwang and the other moderators, it is our right as individuals to associate with those whom we choose to associate. Simply put "anyone can leave Gameleague at any time, and anyone can disagree with Gameleague policy".

Wezil-We actually do have a forum up and running on the website right now. If there are suggestions to expanding that part, I or Moker or others in the group can easily do so. No, they aren't apolyton sponsored forums. I don't think that makes a difference, fundamentally. As for GL continuing, that is a given: Kwang and his fellow moderators can run GL how they choose. I will not lose sleep worrying about GL.

Eyes/Sean-Simply put, cheating by anyone will result in that person being expelled from our league. You can enter as many times as you want, but we'll just toss you out again. Oh, and, no, there aren't any positions open for a Strategies Expert

Kwang-With all respect, we are no longer trying to convert people to our position. We are merely exercising our rights as individuals to form whatever groups we wish to.

Mercantile-Part of the biggest disappointment, IMHO, in GL is that there are no posted rules. If Kwang or anyone else has started to address this problem, I would love to see the place where this has been done...until then, GL operates by decree, while our league works to build a solid foundation of rule of law.

Respectfully Submitted,
-KhanMan
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by KhanMan (edited November 13, 2000).]</font>

Frank Johnson · November 13, 2000, 10:20

Unbelievable. You are completely ungrateful for every effort I put forward to building the tribes system up in Gameleauge. There have been some short falls yes, but now for an issues COMPLETELY seperate from tribes, you seek to destroy what I have worked on so long. This Sean guy, for one doesn't play games, he doesn't play in tribes either, he doesnt call game desputes. Now you have made a personal attack on my home terf, and I am quite offended. I really don't know what to think about this.

Ming · November 13, 2000, 10:29

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Frank Johnson on 11-13-2000 09:20 AM</font>
Unbelievable. You are completely ungrateful for every effort I put forward to building the tribes system up in Gameleauge. There have been some short falls yes, but now for an issues COMPLETELY seperate from tribes, you seek to destroy what I have worked on so long.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Ungrateful??? It just sounds like some people don't agree on the current rules over at Gameleague. It is their right to choose to be members or not. It is their right to try to establish something that they feel is in their best interest. Ungrateful... no, maybe just disgusted with the whole issue of cheating.
Can a "new" group avoid similar problems... who knows.
But it is obvious that they would like to try.

From the tone and words of the post, I see nothing personal in their declarations except a disagreement over the rules.

drake · November 13, 2000, 12:33

I won't get into this soap opera, cuz it doesn't concern me, but since when in a competition is it necessary to include "do not cheat" in the rules?

To think you need strict guidelines and regulations in a civ game is sad........

Common sense.......what happened to it?

------------------
I get up around seven
Get outta bed around nine
And I don't worry about nothin' no
Cause worryin's a waste of my...time

November 13, 2000, 16:08

First of all you wouldn't be able to even detect me. I can very easily change my personality, typing style, and game playing style to the point where it would be impossible to tell who I am. The only reason you even found out this time was because Kwang finally came out and said it. And the fact that I had planned on the leitzinger thing in my email to become a rumor and then die.

As for your little democratic site, on your reasoning all it takes is for everyone on the league to agree to who gets thrown out correct? So then on that basis I could possibly say get half of your league to agree to throwing say species for example out of the league. If they all want it, the people have made their decision correct? So then really I could get anyone I want thrown out as long as I get the public behind me. Sounds like a fair and just system to me.

rah · November 13, 2000, 16:55

you can change whatever you like, but you could never become a
Bird
Berzerker
Ming
Matt
Merc
War4ever
or a host of any of the players that I play with.

And anyone that has to keep coming up with a new identities to get a game..........I feel sorry for you.

RAH
Honor among Friends.....and enemies.

November 13, 2000, 17:21

Actually Rah I don't even really play anymore. And I get plenty of games. I never came up with this identity to get games. Why don't you learn to read, it might help you. Although I fear it may be beyond your intelligence level. That was more for the sake of argument, obviously you weren't able to comprehend that.

rah · November 13, 2000, 17:42

You've never changed your name to get a game.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You're pathetic.
I guess you memory cheats too.

RAH

Wezil · November 13, 2000, 18:53

Sean - Please quit farting in the wind. Your posting style makes it relatively easy to spot you. Don't flatter your brilliant self.

------------------
"These were giants [The ‘Hellfire’ Club]. They had standards - not like these whimpering mashers who keep fouling our headlines today."

Free the D**d Threads!!

November 13, 2000, 19:17

Name a time Rah. I switched names one time as QuickAcorn and that lasted a very short time. So other than that what proof do you have?

Wezil...I've never really tried to change my posting style. If you want I can get a new name and we can see if you can spot who I am.