The Best Civ

St Leo · August 8, 1998, 09:23

Personally, I think CtP shows the most promise. It is inferior to AC in the respect that the other one has real elevations, but that is a minor issue.

St Leo · August 8, 1998, 20:11

Oh, I'm talking about elevations, rather than the terrain itself. I find ToT to have the best terrain graphics, but the iplementation is perfected in CtP

August 9, 1998, 00:23

What I didn't quite like on AC is the terrain and city graphics. I guess I'm used to an earth-like enviroment, and CtP surely has better graphics than Civ2...
But on the other hand, there will be someone who will change the graphics of AC, isn't it?

Markos Giannopoulos, Apolyton CS

August 11, 1998, 17:54

i feel ctp could compete with smac. but i also want to point out a VERY slick aspect of civ2: test of time. if you'll look at the screenshots, the menus are translucent (see-thru). how cool is that?! how many times has that control menu blocked something very important in civ2? far too many!

Jason Beaudoin · August 12, 1998, 08:39

The reason why I'm sold on SMAC is because of the people who are creating the game. All of these games show a lot of promise, but we really don't know which will be the best game until it comes out. I'm sure many of you have bought a game that was a complete dud, so you know what I'm talking about.

I tend to buy games when they come from companies that have good track records when making games. If there's too much inexperience behind a game, it will show in the final product. I can, at least, feel confident that SMAC is being created by a veteran crew.

LT John · August 12, 1998, 19:15

I can understand Jason's apprehension about buying games from unproven developers. And the team at Firaxis has two awesome designers behind AC.

CTP has a bunch of talented people with experience making great games as well- some of their credits include Close Combat 1 & 2 (programming), I-76 (art), Dark Reign (programming and AI), and Zork Nemesis (design and direction).

Everyone on the team is a huge Civ and Civ2 fan. We get a lot of questions about how someone can make a Civ game without Sid and Brian and our answer is that it has happened before in other genres (shooters started with id, now there's 3D Realms, Epic, Raven, etc. RTS started with Westwood and Blizzard, now there's Cavedog, Ensemble and others). There is room in the market for two (or more) great world building games. CTP aims to be one of them through strong design, great art, and most of all, addictively fun gameplay.

Jason Beaudoin · August 13, 1998, 14:05

Lt. John:

Thanks for your detailed reply. Just the fact that you're participating in the discussion group and knowing that the designers are paying close attention to the things that the consumers have to say says a lot about your game creation phylosophy and your experience. I have great confidence in the crew at CIV:CTP. The article that I read in PC Gamer showed that the creators were pulling all the stops to make CIV:CTP the best game that they can create. The attention to detail alone demonstrates their own interest in empire building games. The real rival to any other product.

Being a Civilization fan, I will definately buy this game. I've never bought an Activision game, so this will be the tester.

Lister · August 13, 1998, 18:01

my whole problem with CTP is the funky new units. I mean eco-terrorist? is that likely? and park ranger... gimme a F***ing break. park rangers go around and relocate bears and stuff, not destroy cities. And the cleric unit... damn where is your sense of whatever.... their like priests in AOE... gay and gayer.

What you really need is some sensible new units... scuba trooper... amphipious landing craft( civ2 marine ability for ANY unit).

oh and smac will not have super units.. everything can and will be countered

sneetch · August 13, 1998, 21:37

I think what it will come down to for me are the various bells and whistles associated with each game. I am eagerly awaiting SMAC simply because it looks very involved and promising.

I'm slightly unsure about CtP, though. What really make the Civ series great for me was the sense of history that came along with the game. The Wonder movies in CivII were wonderful and gave the game a sense of epic proportion. From the press releases, it seems that Activision has focused on combat mostly, with vast improvements in AI, orders, and the introduction of a lot of new unit, rather than the historical aspects of the original. The possibility of extending ones civilization to the year 3000, in my mind, ruins the sense of history of the game. I could relate to a game that ended 20 years from now ... We'll see if Activision is trying to do too much

LT John · August 14, 1998, 18:44

In response to Lister:

The old traditional units are still there- cavalry, tanks, artillery, etc. There are a bunch of new ones as well. The Park Ranger and ecoterrorists are but two units that we've revealed. While you may not like the names, the strategic options that they bring to the game are really cool (IMHO). There are over 80 unit types in the game- you've probably only seen about ten or so at this point.

SMAC will be similar in this respect- they've got a lot of new sci-fi type units. Some you may think are cool, some you may think are lame. But the fact is that they will provide a bunch of new options to your strategy for winning the game.

For Sneetch:
We are not focusing only on combat. Actually, combat, trade, diplomacy, civ management, and story are all getting equal billing. What you've seen so far is just a small snapshot.

In both cases, I know that I can spend all day talking about these things and you'll still be skeptical. But be patient- we'll reveal more about CTP in the coming months, and I think that you'll find it a worthy addition to the Civilization name.

LT John · August 14, 1998, 21:05

One more note for Lister:

I just want to make sure that you don't have a misinterpretation of what the cleric does.

He is NOT an AOE type priest.

He approaches enemy cities and "converts" them to his civilization's religion. The enemy maintains control of the city and the population, but the population now has an affinity to tithe the cleric's government every turn. In essence, it is an economic attack. There is also a side effect- if the enemy government declares war on the cleric's government, the people of the "converted" city will become unhappy- a real world example might be if Italy attacked the Vatican States. So the cleric also has a defensive purpose. He does not go around capturing enemy units or cities like the AOE priests.

The cleric is a great example of our new warfare types. We also have economic, propaganda, viral, terrorist and other forms of warfare.

Jason Beaudoin · August 15, 1998, 09:58

I believe that these new units will be an interesting addition to this type of game and I don't think that including them will detract from the game. Actually, it is nice to see that CIV:CTP is doing something different from its competitors. After all, who wants to see the same things in each of these games?

I'm just happy to see that this genre is getting more attention than they had in the last few years. I've always been a big fan of empire building games, and I'm relishing in the new attention it is getting.

St Leo · August 15, 1998, 11:26

Yeah, the first real RTS Empire Builder will be Empire Earth to be release in 2001. Currently, computers are a little weak to have good map scale in the RTS game area.

civworld · August 15, 1998, 23:31

This may be a stupid question, but in CTP, will there be actuall civilizations. By this I mean will there be an (say) English and French civs, rather than just the Red and Blue Civs? Will each civ have unique attributes that they had in real life (like city names, city styles, etc..)?

Another thing; will there be real Earth maps, like in Civ1/2, or will it just be random everytime? That is what I hated about AOE, the fact that you could only play on random maps. That was stupid.

Bio Terminator · August 16, 1998, 03:06

You mean Imperialism, don't you? In aoe you had an map editor.

St Leo · August 16, 1998, 08:36

Yeah, that was the weakest point of Imperialism. It had the potential to become a great game, but it forgot a map and scenario editor. The ones it had included with the game were fun to play, but there were only three scenarios.

LT John · August 17, 1998, 18:26

Yes, there will be real Civ names like the Germans, Celts, Chinese, etc. (although I'm not sure how many at this point).

Yes, you will be able to create your own maps in the map editor and load them up when you play. There is also a random map generator for those who want to use it.

For St. Leo: I think that Caesar III will be the first real time Empire building game, though it's more like SimCity than Civ. The demo that I played was fun though- I'm looking forward to playing the full game.

St Leo · August 18, 1998, 10:05

Was it in the Computer Games Strategy magazine?

RacBonker4 · August 20, 1998, 22:49

In my opinion CtP doesn't look like a promising game. I agree with the guy that said the units are incredibly lame (eco-terrorist, just look at him). If I were activision I would change the look of this unit as fast as I could. Also AC looks better then CtP in the fact that its based more on the Traditional Civilization layout.
I place my bet on the upcoming Civ2: Test of Time. If you go to the Microprose press release section and click on Test of Time announced at E3 it will tell you that its much more then just a add-on to civ. It includes linked maps, animated units and workers in your cities, multiplayer of course, new options on the diplomacy screen, o man I just lost what else anyway go check it out its cool.

RacBonker4 · August 20, 1998, 22:54

I have something else to say. About what I said about CtP. Remember what people said about Civilization II before it came out, the same stuff that we are saying about CtP now. And no look, best selling stratedgy game of all time. ALSO anyone willing to give me a great computer either for free or under 300 dollars. I really wanna play these games. Hey Lt. could you help me with this I and talk to activision? I will be CtP and hail your game as the greatest ever.

DoctorNumb · August 21, 1998, 11:46

I believe both AC and CTP as being excellent games, as far as I can tell right now. Graphics and ideas for both seem outstanding and I plan to buy both. But overall I would have to give AC the most credit since it has an integrated plot.

DoctorNumb · August 21, 1998, 16:05

You should visit the web site then, they're on episode 12 I believe in which a nifty little storyline is being developed.

August 21, 1998, 16:57

I have seen the SMAC site. But the thing is that SMAC starts in the future, and the plot is about what happened to the spaceship, etc.
Now imagine a plot of a game starting in 4000BC...
And I don't think SMAC will last 7000 years...

Markos, Apolyton CS

August 22, 1998, 00:53

I can't see how a game of 7000 years could have a plot..

Markos, Apolyton CS

Draco · August 22, 1998, 07:02

The Docs right. SMAC's website tells alot more about the story and characters. of course C:CTP's website has a lot more on the actual game mechanics which i find much more useful but I still check in on sid's site occational just to see if there is anything new.

DoctorNumb · August 25, 1998, 00:52

I see, I didn't know your were speaking of Ctp. Well I was giving the reason why I though AC is a better overall game. You see it has a plot, where you've already stated a game of 7000 years really can't have one. I'm not faulting Ctp, I'm only saying the plot makes AC better.
And about TOT, I feel sorry for them, with Ctp coming out an add-on to CivII will most likely be overlooked by most gamers. Even though I hate to admit that I will probably buy it just to see how it goes.

Draco · August 25, 1998, 15:35

WOW. CTP and SMAC developers in the same place. It's like being in the presence of gods. I am awed to the deepist part of my soul.

August 25, 1998, 16:53

Draco, I will agree with you. WOW!

I will also agree with Brian Reynolds. We can't tell much about the games until we actually play them, but on the other hand, we need something to chat on the hot nights of August...

Markos, Apolyton CS

ps. my guess is that after the games are released we wont have much time to chat...

Draco · August 25, 1998, 23:23

One of ideas that I like about SMAC is, as the AC website put it:
>Raise and lower the land with your Terraformers, changing weather patterns and altering the course of rivers to make the climate more suitable for you or harsher for your opponents.

What do you guys think? and LT John, will C:CTP have this?

Brian Reynolds FIRAXIS · August 26, 1998, 00:35

Really, it's hard to make an objective comparison right now, since there is no basis (yet) on which to make such a comparison.

Much of the success of games like Civilization has rested on "intangibles"--stuff you can't demonstrate in a screen shot or in a web post. Things like game balance, pacing, AI, quality of writing, and so forth.

Sure, we can all -claim- we have the best AI, for instance, and list a bunch of features which we claim will demonstrate this, but nobody can really prove it without actually delivering a game. For a substantive comparison, I'm afraid you'll have to wait until the games are released.

Brian Reynolds
Alpha Centauri Designer
FIRAXIS Games