New King? They're both pretenders to the throne!

[mrtemba]

Civilization II never stepped down. Fantastic Worlds sealed it into #1 spot forever. Test of Times will probably wow us all into submission. MGE dragged it down a little but most of us just ignored that.

[Makeo]

"MGE dragged it down a little bit but most of us just ignored that"

I don't know how to do the quote thing

Perhaphs you should have said; Most of us involved with Scenario league ignored that.
Since MGE has revitalised civ for a lot of people me included. I love being able to play multiplayer and for me and a lot of others MGE is more important than Fantastic worlds

I hate SMAC. I've tried to overlook its ugliness, its conceptual faults, and the fact that it locked up on me in 3 different games after 250+ turns. I tried to focus on just playing it for fun, but I can't. It's the most frustrating of all the civ genre. The more I play it, the more frustrating it gets.

SLOW. Everything about it is slow. I was hoping for something innovative with unit movement, especially air units. Nope. The sluggish graphics—this effects everything, even the menus. With all the bells and whistles turned off units putt along with pauses at every square. Agonizing pauses if moving over or past other units. It's stupid to have an engine that a 300MHz PII 64MB w/8MB, 128 bit accelerated PCI graphics can't handle.

The unit design workshop—ugh, what a (inter)face. I hate the pop-up new unit development proposing units I never want. Then it keeps re-proposing unit designs I've previously rejected or changed. But if you skip the pop-up revue, going back to prune the unwanted new units is even worse. There is no organization to the (agonizingly slow scrolling) unit list. The Hobson's choice is: no auto design of new units, doing it all by hand. There is no organization to the (agonizingly slow scrolling) build menu either, but at least units are presented in a 2D array. Thank God they made the upgrade menu text only!

Then the unit chassis types irk me. Airplanes, submarines, aircraft carriers, helicopters, hovercraft, hydrofoils, missiles… these have all been developed within a 100 year period which began with dreadfully primitive manufacturing capabilites. These colonists start out with the knowledge we've got plus manufacturing facilities capable of making Chobham type armor, and they can't build a simple ship or airframe? They can't seal a pressure hull? They can't slap helipads on the fantails of ships, or make a flattop with a launching catapult? THEY CAN'T EVEN BUILD AN ATV? Talk about reinventing the wheel!

Let's go back to some really basic transportation predating all of this, railroads. Why wait for maglev technology when it's entirely unnecessary? Cripes, GIVE ME RAILS! In a nutshell, transportation technology is agonizingly slow where it ought not be delayed at all.

Hovercraft, perhaps the simplest form of transport after the wheel; capable of sea, litoral, and inland operation (over unbroken ground). The "foil" units are even pictured as hovercraft! With Chiron's 75% greater air density a hovercraft would have better load/deadweight ratio than on Earth. You wouldn't need amphibious modifications for any troops or equipment being delivered to the shore by hovercraft transport. It's a no-brainer as the Chiron chassis of choice, but essentially doesn't exist in the game design.

Aircraft and land combat vehicles require high output/low weight powerplants. Internal combustion is something like a dozen times as efficient when considering the deadweight of the engine; a reactor requires closed working fluid and shielding, etc. Yes, there are nuclear rocket designs usable for fixed wing aircraft. How the heck are these colonists powering helicopters with fission reactors?

Then SMAC made refining artificial propellants something high tech. Hello!? How about methanol, or hydrogen? Basic missile propellants are the bottom rung of chemical engineering, although some specialized propellants are high tech… by 20th century standards. Heck, we can make crude oil from waste today, it's just so much cheaper to pump it out of the ground.

Then there's the whole energy-based economy model. Why is there any limit to energy if compact, efficient, and relatively non-polluting fission is available? Obviously there is no political squeemishness, given all the nuclear powered vessels around. OK, fissionable material may be limited, but once deuterium fusion is available…

Which brings up another problem with having all these vehicles (and apparently infantry equipment as well) nuclear powered. Can you say radioactive contamination? I thought you could. Every battlefield would be a disaster area, and every soldier who survived battle a walking disaster. I'd think the Gaians would be much more concerned about this than about somebody else's free market economy.

How do “conventional” strategic missiles destroy everything in the target square? Perhaps “conventional” has been mysteriously redefined to mean “nuclear.” If so, how would nukes do so without destroying terrain improvements, city structures, and citizens in the square? Where's the fallout, etc? Why aren't tactical missiles this effective, one barrage and it's over?

On to other things. There is nothing between 7.62mm small arms and the high tech weapons in the game. Maybe the colonists were originally only equipped with small arms, OK. But once they start designing and producing their own there's no limit. What about infantry weapons like mortars, heavy machine guns, RPGs, LAWs, wire guided AT missiles, and shoulder-launched AA missiles that we have now? How about tanks and APCs?

Then the ridiculous stuff. How do you make laser/energy weapon “artillery?” That is, how do you “bombard” from over the horizon, or to bypass line-of-sight defenses, with a line-of-sight weapon? Mystical armor materials… oh, don't even get me started. Nor on “special abilities.”

It's the stupidity, stupid!

[goofydrew]

don Don, i couldn't have said it better myself. and as far as CTP goes, more isn't always an improvement.
i'm hoping that TOT follows in the footsteps of CIV, where the gameplay is the attraction, not the ability to make 32,000 different units; 31,900 of which are idiotic minor upgrades that no one will ever get around to building.
the3.14rt

I've been meaning to ask… What's “the3.14rt?”
Could it be “the pi-rate?”

[goofydrew]

don Don, congrats. it isn't really that tough, but you are one of the few to figure it out. i guess there aren't many true math fans out there anymore. too many calculators, and not enough real interest in the subject. the3.14rt

[Oleg Leschov]

SLOW. Yeah, it is. But I don't care. This game, for me, is just about gameplay. Beautiful crap isn't good for me instead of the Thing.

Unit design.
I don't ever use proposed designs, I don't ever look at them. This is for newbies only. Just examine preferences closely -- there's an option to disable those proposals. In fact, I agree that this design sucks. I hope they'll fix it. Anyway, look p.1.

Next arguments are just STUPID.
They came in a little spaceship. Landed. What did they have? NOTHING!!! HOW could they make those things you told about? OK, perhaps they possed some plans. Maybe. But should they build it all by hand? No they couldn't! It took tens of years to develop infrastructure they had on earth, but on Earth it developed hundreds of years! Keep in mind that this is new start of entire humanity, and without any help from anywhere, in the world that didn't fit customs and technologies like Earth did, so even some of old plans and models couldn't be used there.

The same about many other your arguments -- keep in mind thet Planet isn't too like Earth to use those old tech -- remember that Syntetic Fussel Oils tech (sorry I've somewhat misspelled it)?

About economic model. This energy hype is just an abstract idea. Don't forget that this model (Trade -> Science, Taxes, Luxery) came to SMAC from Civ, and I am sure that it is MUCH more realistic and proven than narrow CTP model witch, in general, could only be applied to some more advanced social models, perhaps, like some modern ones.

The same is about reactor -- look at this as on abstraction. Who knows how will the technics be powered in the far future? Nobody knows. So, it's just what shows us the idea from science fiction, nothing more. But I am sure that it's quite realistic in the wide picture. The same is about armor.
About the special abilities. What's the problem here? You didn't even try to argument your offence on it, but perhaps you just couldn't.

If you so like CTP because of it's graphics, this is still not a reason to blame the game with poorer graphics, but with better gameplay.

[Biggles]

Neither CTP or SMAC are as good as CIV2.
CTP has better graphics, the rest is worse.
SMAC has better AI/diplomacy, the rest is worse.

Between them, they have destroyed CIV2. Splitting the fans and turning some away.
I will not forgive them for that.

I have gone back to playing CIV2.
Maybe in the future, a group of programmers will get together and correct the minor problems with CIV2. Sound familiar?

Ahh, finally, a response! I'd have answered sooner but I gave up looking at this thread a day or two before you posted.

Oleg, please read again: "The Hobson's choice is: no auto design of new units, doing it all by hand." That means there really is no other choice but to play with proposals disabled.

Yes, they came in a space ship and landed with no infrastructure… except each faction starts with a tech. Morgan starts with the tech to make Synthmetal armor, which the manual says is "Chobham type, modified" or some such words. Chobham type armor requires some of the most sophisticated manufacturing technology on earth today. That's why one side of the cold-war era divided has it (Britain and US) and the other side (present and former Commies) doesn't. Even when the Russians got detailed data on what Chobham armor was made of they couldn't figure out how to do it, despite the fact that metalurgy is the strong suit in indigenous (i.e., not stolen from the West) Russian r & d.

What, do hydraulics (displacement, drag, etc) work differently on Chiron? Does the airfoil work differently? They don't have to build a 100k ton supercarrier, just a simple ship. They don't have to build a Mach 2.5 marvel of technology, just something rugged and practical like the A-10.

Does chemistry work differently on Chiron? If you read the appendix, Chiron is rich in reducing (anaerobic hydrogen-fixing) environments. We can make plastics and synthetic crude oil from today from soy beans. Like I said, "Hello!? How about methanol, or hydrogen? …Basic missile propellants are the bottom rung of Chemical engineering." It shouldn't take them decades to get there; if they can make boilers and pipes, they can refine various propellants from crops. Worry about process efficiency later.

However you look at, SMAC has it backwards between knowlege and infrastructure.

Never played CTP. SMAC's energy-based economy ("Energy" bank? Get real!) is still stupid. Next argument, please.

Fission reactors aren't generalizations, and aren't future technology. There are ideas for future fission technology, especially jet/rocket motors: gas core reactors and such. We don't have materials that can take the heat. But why isn't there any generalization for internal combustion?

Like I said, don't get me started on armor and abilities. I can type reasonably fast, but my objections are too numerous to waste time on. Let me know if you really want to read them…

I don't care about unit animations. I'd rather play a with a primitive 2D display like the original Civ than put up with sluggish graphics. I haven't played CTP, but SMAC is not an improvement in gameplay from Civ2.

Hello? Anybody out there?

[Narck]

Personally, I don't like SMAC - and that sucks because I waited for half a year for that thing to come out.

I agree that the only true strategy game is civ2 so far..

Maybe Civ3 will beat it - (if it doesn't have the same mistakes as SMAC - seeing that it has the same programmers)

Anyway, so far this has been a big disappointment to me

[TCO]

SMAC is just a semi-legal ripoff of Civ.

[Peter Dobrovka]

I did not play SMAC yet but I did play CTP - and I hate it!
And I am really, really surprised that there are living people who do NOT hate it!
After several tryings I uninstalled CTP and found myself playing CIV 2 again.

Graphics:
Graphically CTP is slightly better but not in every aspect. OK, the tiles are somewhat bigger so there is more detail, and the units are animated - but the borders of the tiles are now straight like drawn with a ruler!
And what did they do with the city screen? I have no city view anymore! My buildings are only text now! Is this an enhancement?
The ressource icons which indicated the amount of a city's income of food, shields and gold are now dry and abstract numbers.

Screens:
Again I have to cry for the city screen - now because of information! The basic information about a city: food, gold, production, science and buildings are distributed on several microscreens. Goodbye, overview! It is absolutely impossible to view the relevant information on a single look - but sometimes even two or three or four looks are not enough! Argh!

If I want to see which tiles are used by workers I have a moveable window that is to access by 2 clicks! To assign more workers from entertainers or scientits there is another window. To see the effect on production and gold there is again another window. The effect on science is again another window. The question of how much turns it takes to grow is another window, the question how much turns it takes to complete the actual building project is even a subscreen in another window.
So many windows - but you can't open these all at the same time! And in the few cases you can the content of the one will not actualize according to the action in the other!!!
The designer of this masochistic interface must have been drunken, mad or worse!

Ease of use and understanding:
Very often I give wrong orders to my units because I was not aware that they will react to my click that was intended to do something quite different, f.e. view a city.
Sometimes the next unit is centered and highlighted with a green frame that tells me this to move next - sometimes there is nothing and I have to click the next unit button to activate somebody. This can cause an end of turn.
Sometimes my cities get attacked by slavers or religious units that I can't see and therefore have no defense.
Sometimes my units are attacked but the location is not centered.
Sometimes I receive information as an icon and wrongly right-click it. - Goodbye, message.

The new features CTP has are very good and exciting but this interface crushes my brain. I will keep playing CIV 2 and wait for CIV 3.

Peter

------------------
3DTT - the 3D sequel to Transport Tycoon - demo 4.0 in June 1999
Path of Mankind. Turnbased Civ-like game - demo 15 coming soon

[Narck]

Path of Mankind?

[Peter Dobrovka]

Oh, my signature does not include the URL as I see:

www.digitalprojects.com/way-x

The site is in German, an English version is planned since last year but no time to realize.

Here you can find the DOS-version of Path of Mankind (German AND English), Beta 14.
There will be a Beta 15 soon for Win95 - but not this month.

Peter

------------------
3DTT - the 3D sequel to Transport Tycoon - demo 4.0 in June 1999
Path of Mankind. Turnbased Civ-like game - demo 15 coming soon

[Narck]

Looking at the list of suggestions for civ3 it seems as if the new king is finally being constructed...

We'll just have to see how far from the tree this apple falls. Unless they're willing to do something radically different (like, uh, movement rules ) it will likely just be a rehash of FW, SMAC, ToT, etc.

[Saint Marcus]

I have played SMAC exactly 2 times, and CTP exactly 5 times before dumping it in the trash can. Now I play BotF and that does have soem potential (although v1.o has a lot of bugs). Anyway I think that I'll just wait for ToT.

[Earthling7]

It is ironic, isn't it... waiting for months for the two "sequels" to Civ2, and finding that the best option is yet another re-vamp of the original... that is if ToT will be any good.

We can only hope.

Reading the list of ideas for CivIII, if only half of these ideas get implemented in the game, it will be awesome. I especially like the border thing...

[Narck]

Actually, Mark L,

I did the same thing. Only played Smac and CTP couple of times - neither could hold my interest for very long...

Now I'm back to civ2 (desperately waiting for ToT ) and I just acquired RollerCoaster Tycoon - awesome game.

[Narck]

And ToT turned out to be nasty as well