Let's Make Our Own Game

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by Darkknight on 03-04-2001 03:48 PM I've been looking at the Pentagon tiles idea and I'm confused on how your going to put it together is it going to look like a sphere or will it be flat? Because when it is stretched out flat there are spaces between some tiles where they don't join together.

The problem does not lie with the flat map. These can be made with both square and hexagon tiles. Basing the map on the carbon-fullerene structure would work, but it has two inherent problems that I can immediately (there may be more which I am missing) perceive:

1) The buckminster fullerene structure contains both hexagons and pentagons. This would mean that the map would have to have both of these types of tiles, which would be hell for AI pathfinding. This would be on top of the fact that AI pathfinding would already be severly hampered by the curvature of the surface requiring the use of polar rather than cartesian coordinates.

2) Geometry dictates that even a combined hexagon/pentagon structure can only be used to create certain specific sizes of "spheres". The minimum size of the map would have to have exactly 60 vertexes (easier to measure map size by vertexes rather than tiles under this system), no more and no less. Similar restrictions would apply to maps of other sizes. There simply cannot be sizes in between these - geometrically it just does not work.

Suggested Solution:

If you are going to use a spherical map, don't use the structure of carbon-fullerene as your model. I suggest you abandon the entire idea of tiles alltogether and instead fully rely on polar coordinates for assigning locations. Each coordinate would have strings of information attached to it regarding the terrain values. There could then be a skin superimposed on the surface of the virtual sphere depicting terrain. The colour of each pixel would then be dependent on the terrain value of the corresponding coordinate. Alternatively each pixel would not need an assigned coordinate. The pixels between coordinates could be blended in automatically with a gradual colour transfer between two pixels that have their own coordinates.

ok, i think it's time to move this where it belongs, in the Alternative Civs section

[quinns]

Alright Mark G. Thanks. Sorry to post it in the wrong forum to begin with, but it spun off from a thread started there, so there you have it. In any case, we have a good start with this game.

It sounds like Roman has thought about this in depth already! And Wittlich, I wish we could use hexes throughout the entire spherical model. But it is those "fudge" factors, that you mention, that cause unreasonable gamer deployment of certain regions of the map.

Personally, I don't like the "point" movement spherical coordinate system, even though I think that graphically and visually, it much more accurately depicts a real sphere. I believe this point movement system creates way too much micro management of everything. (By the way, I think you meant spherical, not polar. Polar coordinates [angle and radius] represent points in two dimensions where spherical [theta angle, phi angle, and radius] represent points in three dimensions like latitude and longitude with the radius always being the radius of the earth.)

The reason for wanting to stay with the Buckminster Fuller (bucky ball or soccer ball) spherical representation, is because it allows discrete regions to be able to apply regional properties more simply. I haven't really thought it out, but point movement seems kind of like "Warcraft" and "Red Alert". Though, those are great games, I would instead like to create more of a strategic game than a tactical one.

Chess and Go use discrete squares, with just a few different types of pieces, yet both games still offer infinitely complex strategies. I would rather stay with discrete regions (hexagons and pentagons) in this game, and create a game that enjoyably (and accurately within reason) simulates mankind's true expansion from the Stone Age to the Stars. While at the same time creating a fun and challenging human-against-human, (and human-against-artificial-intelligence), true strategy game.

And yes, there would always be 52 regions, (I think that comes out to 60 vertices, like you said Roman), on all the spheres represented in this game engine, no matter how large or small. The size of the sphere respresented is dictated by the length of the struts. All the struts (or seams of a soccer ball) are exactly the same distance in a single bucky ball. That is one of the reasons this makes for a great model. Two adjacent regions always have exactly the same length "front" between them on a bucky ball. Hexes have the exact same "frontage" quality also, but they cannot be accuarately twisted into a sphere... hence the use of the "bucky ball". This distinction becomes quite apparent as compared with the "square" tile system, where diagonally adjacent squares have a ZERO length frontage between them, which is not very realistic.

Yes, when the Bucky Ball is laid out flat there are some gaps between the hexagons and pentagons, but the computer handles all of this wrapping for the player. And it wraps PERFECTLY with a bucky ball model. It might not even be necessary to lay the ball out flat. If we could get a little fancy, we could have the user discretely rotate the bucky ball sphere to the desired region in order to view statistics, make adjustments, and relocate units within that hexagon or pentagon region.

no problem quinns


if you guys want my opinion, i would tell you to support the existing projects. only this way we can have more hope that we will see some good (and finished) civ games

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by quinns on 03-04-2001 08:00 PM I believe this point movement system creates way too much micro management of everything.

I am not sure about that. You would basically drag a straight line (OK, curved to fit the sphere) from the unit to the point where you want to move it and the unit would move there. Moreover, units and cities would still occupy some space on the map, so that that would remain unchanged, only their position would not be discrete (well it would be less discrete anyway ). On the other hand, I am not convinced myself about the suitability of the idea, as the map generation would be difficult to say the least.

quote: (By the way, I think you meant spherical, not polar. Polar coordinates [angle and radius] represent points in two dimensions where spherical [theta angle, phi angle, and radius] represent points in three dimensions like latitude and longitude with the radius always being the radius of the earth.)

Like coordinate geometry, polar geometry can also be applied to any number of dimensions. Spherical might be the name for it in three dimensions, though, whenever I talked about it I always called it polar. What you describe, however, is what I meant, so I didn't cause any confusion, I hope.

quote: The reason for wanting to stay with the Buckminster Fuller (bucky ball or soccer ball) spherical representation, is because it allows discrete regions to be able to apply regional properties more simply.

This is true, I haven't thought of that . While it could be done in the point movement system, it would be much more complicated to program.

In fact this statement has led me to a great (IMO) idea, which I will describe later in this post.

quote: Chess and Go use discrete squares, with just a few different types of pieces, yet both games still offer infinitely complex strategies.

Well, with the point idea was not trying to suggest it would be better for strategy, only that it would make a better and more flexible sphere.

quote: And yes, there would always be 52 regions, (I think that comes out to 60 vertices, like you said Roman), on all the spheres represented in this game engine, no matter how large or small.

Actually it is not quite that inflexible a structure. In my studies of chemistry, I came across other buckyballs of different sizes. 60 vertices (52 regions) is just the smallest of the structures that folds into a sphere. There are other larger ones, but I have forgotten the exact numbers for them since.

quote: Yes, when the Bucky Ball is laid out flat there are some gaps between the hexagons and pentagons, but the computer handles all of this wrapping for the player.

I don't think the map even needs to be laid out flat for the player, so this needen't be a problem.


Now the idea I had would help us vary map sizes while keeping the buckyball structure. It is very simple. One buckyball region would simply be made up of multiple tiles, which could be say hexagonal so that they would fit perfectly into the hexagonal regions of the buckyball. Of course, the fit would not be perfect into the pentagons, but it would be close enough. Simple and effective, no?

Ok Quinns, you've sold me. Do you need another worker-bee to jump onto your band wagon? I am a political analyst by trade and only dabble in computer programming out of curiosity and leisure. Mind you, I'm not trained in programming and more times than not end up digging myself into the proverbial "cyber hole," but I do like the challenge . I can be of assistance in any political/tactical aspects of the game (I am a 20 yr Army verteran) and whould love the chance of testing the different aspects of the game, while maintaining the neccessary documentation/paper trail of course.

[quinns]

Mark G, Your opinion is always valued here. But I did check out the other Alternative Civ games and did not see one that was even remotely close to what I had in mind. I'm glad you placed this thread in the "Other Games" section because it really will not be a Civilizaton Clone. Maybe a Distant Cousin to Civilization, but definitely not a clone!

Roman, We are thinking somewhat similarly. I had thought about trying to squeeze hexes into a pentagon, but I ended up not liking the thought. I've been in the computer industry long enough to know that the one area that you try to "fudge" on programatically, (even though it might only reflect 1% of the program), will be the part of the code that causes 95% of the bugs... over and over. I still like the idea of always using 52 regions (a perfect bucky ball) to represent all heavenly bodies... from a sun to an asteroid. The scale would be the primary thing that changes on the spherical model. This would make programming all 95 major solar sytem bodies an exercise in repitition once the first model is created. In addition, other stellar planetary systems could be added without too much extra programming.

I DO like the idea of "point" movement in regards to the "Stellar" map display only. And "hex" movement in the "Planetary System" display. It is only on the "Spherical Body" display that we should use the "bucky ball" (52 region) model, in my opinion. The limited 52 regions that would represent Earth (and the other planets) actually works out well for a grand strategy game. And I like the idea of programming just ONE basic modeling engine to represent any sized world or heavenly body.

We need to start thinking a little about the structure of the company now, though, (in addition to the first game) .... Viceroy? Can you help us with this "hierarchy and structure" a little?

Also, we might start to be getting into possible copyright problems if we go into any more detail here on the forum. I can see this forum as a recruitment area (if you don't mind too much Mark G ) for the new company, but we should probably start taking these "game detail" ideas off forum for our own good, I think.

Respectfully,

Quinns


[This message has been edited by quinns (edited March 05, 2001).]

[quinns]

And Wittlich... Thanks for your list of accomplishments. Your skills will be very beneficial to the company, I'm sure.

I'm not sure if your going to like this, but I was a second lieutenant in the field artillery back in the early 1980's. (I couldn't hack it as an enlisted man!) I made it to E4 before I went to OCS. I was stationed at Fort Benning most of the time... (I know, it's the Infantry school, not Artillery!). But because I was airborne qualified, I got sent there, I guess. My MOS was 11B as an enlisted man, so I guess that helped put me there as well. In any event, I never saw any action... I was a Peace Time -- 90 Day Wonder -- Butterbar! But it really was good experience, regardless.

Quinns

Quinns, lol!!! I can relate with that. I myself did two tours with Field Artillery in Germany. Both units were with PERSHING. I always got a kick when someone asked me what size artillery did my unit have. My answer - the really bad ones - since PERSHING was nuclear and ONLY nuclear capable...but since the signing of the treaty, PERSHING II has since gone by the way side. Of course, being MI, I worked in the G-2 so the assignments were not really all that bad

[quinns]

PERSHINGS!! I had ONE class on nukes... and the briefing they gave us before the class led me to believe that they were going to reveal all the secrets of the United States!! (Of course, they didn't reveal much at all, as you know well I'm sure.)

Regarding this new gaming company. Does anyone have any suggestions about the best way to discuss these topics in private amongst us all? I have an ICQ address, and it seems pretty popular to have an ICQ number in this forum. Is this a good way to discuss things privately, with many people involved?? Mass e-mail seems so cumbersome, especially if I'm trying to record the data coming and going. Any better ideas welcome!

Well, downloaded the program and got a new ICQ number...my God! my last number was only 5 or 6 digits long...this one is 9!!! Oh, and by the way it's 110689330

[quinns]

Will do Mark -- you are removed. Sorry for not joining your team. And sorry I couldn't persuade you to join ours. It looks like you do good work! I've always wanted to "stretch to the stars" with the whole Civilization concept, and this new game attempts to do this, (but not like many of the "start with a ship and expand" space games already out there). This one starts on Earth (or an imaginary world on another star system), develops it's civilization, then expands to other worlds. I know this might have been done before, but that shouldn't stop us from trying to do it better!

Wittlich has joined ICQ... good! I think this might work well for us... Any other opinions about other private communication methods?

Quinns

[Roman]

Wittlich, since you were working with Pershing Missiles, did you by any chance happen to be stationed in Schwaebisch Gmuend in Germany? If so, I am currently living in your former base. This was a US army base for Pershing Missiles. It has now been converted to an overseas campus of the University of Maryland University College.

More on the subject: I used to have ICQ, but the noises and notices it entailed anoyed me too much, so I deleted it. It would be best to contact me by e-mail: lajciak@hotmail.com
However, I think discussion on the forums could be productive too. Copyright issues might not be such a problem with the style of company you are proposing.

[Darkknight]

Sorry double post but i was going to say this anyway, I think the religion aspect should be more important in the game as it has caused a lot of wars and other stuff. Check out the old Religion thread.
The effect of religion should rise and fall over the ages and according to a civilizations level of "Culture" Rise of atheism and cynics etc.


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" mind over body "
[This message has been edited by Darkknight (edited March 06, 2001).]

[Darkknight]

Hmmm about this bucky ball will the Hexes be bulged out are will they be flat bacause if you bulge them you create massive amounts of extra vertexes which if the world was a sphere really slow down the scrolling.
I take it they'll be flat it'll be easier all round.
Can you hold a chatroom in ICQ I think you can do it one on one but more then that I don't know.My ICQ is 96951342 anyway. I was thinking about the meetings and I agree that there should be an admin. committee that meet to decide basic things that can't be decided elsewhere but for any major decisions I think the whole team should meet.
PS Quinn are you getting my mails at all or is your address down or something because whenever I try to mail you I get a delayed notice. Also can anyone tell me how to post pics here??


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" mind over body "

[RonHiler]

Hi Quinns and all,

As far as the mailing list goes, I'm going to have to ask you to drop me from it as well. I get plenty enough mail dealing with my own project without putting another one on top of it!

You seem to have conscripted the programmers from all the other alt-civ games, heh. I don't know that they are going to drop their own projects, which keep them quite busy (I'm sure) to work on yours. Don't take it the wrong way. It's just after getting a year or two into a project, there is little chance they'd be willing to give up all the invested work to start all over again. For MD, which has three years of work behind it, and has just moved into a playable form, that would be just silly, if you see what I mean. Plus our players would kill me

But don't think that I, at least, won't be interested or offer advice (if asked). I especially have a bit of experience with spherical world programming, and I know some of the traps and pitfalls you are going to encounter with this task, having gone through it myself. We even tried the "bucky-ball" approach at one point (though with limited success. There are some complications to that method which you haven't considered yet, but you'll get there).

I can't do any programming for you (my programming time is completely tied up with MD), but I will try out demos and offer suggestions and such, as will all of the gang from alt-civ. It seems as though you have an interesting game concept. If you ever want to contact me, the best place to do it is on the Alt-Civ board, which is one I always check. I rarely come to "Other Games", and it is only by accident I saw this thread at all. That is really sort of where this thread ought to be anyway, since you are talking about an Alt-Civ kind of game. I always thought this board was more geared toward games in genres other than turn-based historical strategy games.

In any case, good luck with the new game! Keep us posted on how it progresses.

Ron

[Darkknight]

Thanks Ron I'll be sure to keep my most annoying questions for you

[quinns]

List of Members in Quinn Simulations, LLC:
(As of 14-MAR-2001)

Quinns ** (Programmer/Analyst/Developer/Organizer)
Roman ** (Science Adviser)
TheViceroy ** (Administrative Consultant)
Darkknight ** (Graphics Artist)
Wittlich ** (Political Analyst/Military Adviser)
KenHinds ** (Historian/Programmer)
K. Allen ** (Game Developer/Journalist/Writer)
Franses ** (Administrator/Programmer)
Keygen ** (Program Tester/Administrator)
Fraze ** (Programmer)
D. Christopher ** (Graphics Artist/Programmer)
I. Walkington ** (Mathematician)
Mobius ** (Designer)
TheBirdMan ** (Designer/Programmer)
King Thor ** (Programmer)

[This message has been edited by quinns (edited March 27, 2001).]

[Mark_Everson]

Hi quinns:

Could you remove me from your list? My dance card is already quite full getting Clash of Civilizations up and running!

Too bad our project was too Earth-bound for you . But in terms of you wanting things like societies less detailed, Clash will have that approach as an option, even though our Govt/Social model is vastly more complex than Civ2. That's since anything the player doesn't want to deal with, they can turn over to the AI. So IMO we've already got at least half of what you are looking for...

-Mark

quote: Originally posted by quinns on 03-06-2001 09:55 AM Regarding this new gaming company. Does anyone have any suggestions about the best way to discuss these topics in private amongst us all? I have an ICQ address, and it seems pretty popular to have an ICQ number in this forum. Is this a good way to discuss things privately, with many people involved?? Mass e-mail seems so cumbersome, especially if I'm trying to record the data coming and going. Any better ideas welcome!

I used to use ICQ a few years back but stopped (every time I went on line a gang of people kept on interupting me)

I wish I remember my old ICQ number but I don't. I can easily get another and then just use it for our project.

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by RonHiler on 03-06-2001 08:09 PM We even tried the "bucky-ball" approach at one point (though with limited success. There are some complications to that method which you haven't considered yet, but you'll get there). Ron

Oh I can think of some really bad ones already:

1) 52 regions make for a very innacurate map if they are made up of one terrain type only.

2)Considering the huge scale of the regions, new systems of economics and combat will have to be devised.

3) Etc.

And this fails to account for any programming problems, which not being a programmer, I cannot foresee.

quote: Originally posted by Roman on 03-06-2001 05:24 PM Wittlich, since you were working with Pershing Missiles, did you by any chance happen to be stationed in Schwaebisch Gmuend in Germany? If so, I am currently living in your former base. This was a US army base for Pershing Missiles. It has now been converted to an overseas campus of the University of Maryland University College.

Well, it IS a small world after all! To answer your question, yes I was stationed in Schwaebisch Gmuend from 1985 - 1988. I worked in the G-2 (Intelligence) Staff of the 56th FA (Pershing) Command. Talk about a small post...and right in the middle of town! From 1980-1883 I was stationed in Neckarsulm (Heilbronn) at another Pershing unit - this one was at the Battalion level.

Well, it's nice to hear that the government put the installation in Sch. Gmd. to good use!

Darkknight, I went ahead and added you to my ICQ

[This message has been edited by wittlich (edited March 07, 2001).]

[quinns]

Some answers:

Dark Knight -- Sorry no, I haven't received any of your emails ... please send to quinn2084@yahoo.com . (My Apolyton profile won't allow the yahoo.com address so I put "yaahoo.com" in it instead ... this might be the problem.)

And the bucky ball regions will definitely be flat, not bulged. I have a rough sketched Visio picture of the bucky ball laid flat if that helps anyone. Just let me know and I'll send you a copy.

Yes, the economic, military, and mapping models will be quite different than any of the existing games that I have ever seen. Much simpler. I believe that we should keep the first game as simple, clear, yet true to reality, as possible. We'll let the players come up with the complex strategies on their own, (rather than allowing "strategy" to be defined as: "whoever knows the best secrets of the game", which happens in many modern computer games.)

Roman -- As far as the "scale" and map being inaccurate. All of the Civ games already have gross inaccuracies regarding reality. Look at the "city radius" on all the games. On the average, most civ games are about 100 squares around the world. That means each square is about 250 miles across. So a "city radius" is about 1250 miles in diameter (or 1.2 million square miles). That's about the size of the entire southwest region of the United States, including California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, and New Mexico! That's a big city!! And what terrain type should each of the square tiles have in that case? A 250 mile square tile represents 62000 square miles of land. There can be lots of mountains, forests, rivers, deserts, and grasslands in 62000 square miles!

My point, is that I think we should move away from exact terrain types in our new game, (even though the Civilization games sure look pretty with all those nice terrain features!). Our representation is even more grand than Civilization. Our Earth has about 200,000,000 square miles on it's surface. Divide that by 52 gives us about 3 to 4 million square miles per bucky ball region. We definitely need to represent this huge discrete region more generally than with mountains, forests, rivers, etc.

Comments welcome of course!

(And we are still looking for more recruits for this new game company -- even it only means you can contribute one hour per YEAR, we would still like to have you on board! We already have about 7 team members so far. Please post here if you are interested in becoming part of this team.)


[This message has been edited by quinns (edited March 07, 2001).]

[Darkknight]

And there was me thinking i could make some nice 3D hills and mountains
If your not going to have much terrain graphics in it what will you be concentrating on? Just want to know.Got your mail wittlich

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" Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few "

[quinns]

Well Dark Knight, sorry to disappoint you. But the Earth, itself, is a beautiful graphics subject! Even though the terrain won't be used "directly" for game play, we can still draw the 3-D version of each of the 52 regions of the Earth. Imagine a 1800 mile (or 3000 kilometer) wide stretch of land covering a section of your favorite area of the Earth. Now picture it in exagerated 3-D but placed inside of a flat hexagon or pentagon. (Two-thirds of the the Earth tiles will be just pure ocean with a few islands dotted into some of them.)

If you don't want to use Earth as your pilot model, but would rather use your pure imagination, that's fine. We will try to incorporate about 50 to 100 of our nearest star systems into the first game. Visually make up a world in your mind that is orbiting one of these distant stars, (it's what they did in Sid Meyer's Alpha Centauri!). There's no one that can say that you are inaccurate about it! (Not in our lifetime anyway )

[Ribannah]

Wouldn't it be possible to use only hexagons - by approximation?
There is no effect on gameplay if there is some distortion (slightly different angles etc), because all that is relevant for gameplay is
[1] what's on my hexagon
[2] which hexagons are my neighbours
which can for all regions be represented with a standardized, perfect group of 7 hexagons.
The distortion is only relevant for the 3D-representation of the world.

Allowing for approximations, the total number of regions could also be much larger than 52.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[quinns]

Yes Ribannah, we could do that. There are already some pretty good models out there that use a strict hexagon represention. (I remember that the role playing game series Traveler used to do this hexagonal representation of worlds, back in the early 1980's.) But for some reason, I just don't like it. I wish I could say exactly why. Too many years in programming probably. Every time I didn't use EXACT rules to model something, it came back to bite me in the long run. The geometry of the bucky ball is perfect. I know that the programmers are going to have a real rough time with this 3D depiction of the sphere, so the more exact and discrete we can make it, the better.

Thanks for your input Ribannah!

[This message has been edited by quinns (edited March 07, 2001).]

[Ken Hinds]

quote: Originally posted by quinns on 03-02-2001 01:00 PM -- Time Span: From the First Appearance of Mankind on Earth to About the 25th Century A.D [This message has been edited by quinns (edited March 02, 2001).]

Quinns, I've been slowly, very slowly, working on a CIV II scenario along a similar time frame; however, mine would end just about the time that Kulls "Seeds of Greatness" begins. Most of my programming experience is on machines much larger than PC's and with older languages such as COBOL. PASCAL and FORTH are about the newest languages that I've used. I probably couldn't be much coding help, but could probably do historical background research, if you're interested.

Ken

[This message has been edited by Ken Hinds (edited March 07, 2001).]

[quinns]

Hello Ken!

We sure could use your programming skills here, even though you might think they are out of date. (I don't think that's true, by the way. Good programming skills are similar in all languages. I know COBOL, PASCAL, RPG, JAVASCRIPT, PERL, BASIC, FORTRAN, PL/SQL, and I'm trying to learn JAVA now... and they are all really pretty similar once you learn the syntax and calling routine formats. My experience is also with the big machines, and not with the gaming world, unfortunately.) Even if you opt not to join in the programming, we could still use your historical expertise. Read the above section on compensation. If you agree with how we divide up the royalties once the game releases... you are welcome to join us!

I'm really leaning towards writing this entire game in JAVA. I like the browser based design concept, rather than writing a separate version of the game for each specific platform. How do the rest of you feel about this? Especially you Dark Knight... Can your graphics be incorporated well with JAVA?