Cavebear Diplo Game

[cavebear]

I have seen several attempts to get yet another diplo game started, several of which I would have been delighted to participate in. Closure seems to be the problem.

I've played a part of a diplo game previously, and anyone who knows me understands that I tend to play regular MP games that way when given a chance. So, I propose to organize a Diplo game to be played 4 pm to 7 pm Sundays every week for several months (intending that it go to Alpha Centuri). Players would be expected to be there every week, though ocassional subs would be inevitable.

Players don't have to be expert (as if I am), but they should have some experience in allying in MP play.

The most standard cheating rules would apply, we would have bribing, every player would survive til the conclusion, and we adjust borders and techs etc to keep civs engaged (not "equal", but engaged). The game should either be on King or Deity level and involve no barbs, as this is a human game I want to take concrete steps to getting this one going.

We will need a few people with cable or DSL connections to host (I don't, or I would).

The game will be on a premade map that is fair to all, with fair starting points. I, myself, will not know the particular map used.

Anyone who strives for a quick military win need not consider this game. We will simply cheat to eliminate you. This game may not be won absolutely by military conquest.

ICQ 37552809
cavebear@erols.com

Interested?

[SuperSneak]

I'm willing to give it a go, but I suggest we start after the holidays, if possible? That way we get off to a good start.
Of course, I still have to check with "the boss".

Oh...what time zone are we basing the 4-7 thing on?
Sundays are the best for me too, BTW.


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Bring it!

"How ridiculous and how strange, to be surprised by anything that happens in life." Marcus Aurelius (Meditations)
Chief Revealer of Personal Foibles

I'm assuming Eastern time, as Cavebear shows to be in Maryland.
Of course, the fact that he has noted Eastern Time right under Maryland helped me, too.

I always post in Central time, and leave it to others to figure the math.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by IamSlowwHand (edited December 09, 2000).]</font>

[KenThur]

Count me in on this one please.
Time = perfect for moi`.

Since we are creating a "perfect" world how about using the "Master League" rules text?
I understand they are few & simple, yet seemingly effective changes. Involving some very smart little touches like:
>diplo's costing more(especially if we are to have full bribing allowed)
>Oracle lasts longer(very reasonable especially@deity)
>a none attack but faster(?)transport ship during the trieme era(?)
>several other little touches that have worked very well for game-play in that league of good, honorable players

Note: I am NOT a member & DO NOT have a set nor even played a game w/ their rules.

Any thots? Any Master Leaguers out there that can host &/or share your rules w/ us?

I prefer:
Deity (why is it no one plays Emperor?)
At least restless barbs(pirates, privateers, & peasant uprising are a VERY real part of growing an empire... witness the great History Channel program on slaves & their revolts, since the dawn of civilisation!).

Hope we can start today! I my case, the holidays are an excellent time to play since work = near waste of effort.

[Curumbor Elendil]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by KenThur on 12-09-2000 11:25 AM</font>
Since we are creating a "perfect" world how about using the "Master League" rules text?
I understand they are few & simple, yet seemingly effective changes. Involving some very smart little touches like: [...]

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Why all this micromanagement to achieve "fairness"?? This obsession is, like, Communistic!! Are we men or are we mice???



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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[KenThur]

From The Mouse That Roared's desk:

I too don't like the "fair & equal start" bit, but Cave & some others swear by it.

My suggestion is simply to fix some pretty obvious in-play adjustments using a proven method (since CivIII is not currently available).
& EVERYONE knows what was done & how it impacts things.

Signed, Mouseketer Ken :-P


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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

[Curumbor Elendil]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by KenThur on 12-09-2000 04:45 PM</font>
From The Mouse That Roared's desk:

I too don't like the "fair & equal start" bit, but Cave & some others swear by it.

My suggestion is simply to fix some pretty obvious in-play adjustments using a proven method (since CivIII is not currently available).
& EVERYONE knows what was done & how it impacts things.

Signed, Mouseketer Ken :-P


<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

No, I am a fan of fair and equal starts. I was engaging in a bit of satire, quoting comments you'd previously made about altering game parameters.

------------------
Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[boann]

hello cavebear,

I am interested in joining your game.
SlowwHand and i both have talked about it.
think that would be 2-5 mountain time sundays.
need to ck on homefront and see if i get clearance.
altho i can tell you now....
doubtful i will play on christmas eve sunday.


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by boann (edited December 09, 2000).]</font>

[OzzyKP]

hey all, don't forget that starting in January there is a diplo game starting up that should prove to be the best ever. My plea is rather to have lots of mediocre games going on at once, with motley collections of committed, driven, talented players and slack-ass, careless, uninvolved players. We hope to gather the best players in this genre under one roof and have a game to remember for years to come.

Not to try and sabatoge this game, but if anyone is interested please consider playing in the diplo game with Capo and I which should prove to be fantasic.



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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

[Mindfields]

Sign me up cavebear.

Maybe you should discus this with Ozzy.
Btw ozzy. that eurodip is still going. But is hasn't been played for weeks. is it ended?

[Mindfields]

btw. i have cable

[CapTVK]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
My plea is rather to have lots of mediocre games going on at once, with motley collections of committed, driven, talented players and slack-ass, careless, uninvolved players. We hope to gather the best players in this genre under one roof and have a game to remember for years to come.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I have to agree with with Ozzy on this, I rather have one good game that's finished then three bright starts that fizzle out after a month.

One suggestion for all upcoming diplogames: "Why not make it a team effort?"

You could have two sessions every week, one in the weekend and one through the week. The diplo-diehards could play in both sessions and the rest could organize some sort of team roster for play.


P.S
If Kenthur is in, I'm in! I wouldn't want to miss a repeat of Milo's DAM(n)-wonder in the world!

[KenThur]

What DAM kinda endorsement is that CapTV ?!?

Unfortunately, i seem capable of doing the same thing.
Ask your fellow Dutchman / resident Mind, he just witnessed my "luck" in wonder-building.

U 2 ought to team up. Or perhaps be on opposite sides if "teams"?

WHere's the leadership?

[OzzyKP]

Cap, are you interested in being in the game that we talked about with Capo? Kenthur is invited too if he wants. With a bunch of diehards who are committed ours shouldn't be in danger of fizzling.



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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

[KenThur]

Cavebear, R U going to set this up?
If so, today is the day?!
Mid-day as i understand your original plan.

As for maps... i understand they will be UNKNOWN by anyone in the game?

Any comments / thots on rules upgrade?

Ozz; if U & Capo want to plan a diplo, why not join this one? If not, then it may not be real appropriate to use someone's forum to advertise your later game. Play here or start your own thread pls.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited December 10, 2000).]</font>

[cavebear]

Some thoughts:

Fair means "somewhat even", not the Procrustes idea of everyone chopped to fit the bed. Look up "procrustes" .

Waiting until after New Years is a good idea, as many potential players would find some temporary conflicts over the holidays. Jan 7 might be the best start date.

Details of the game can wait until we see who is interested. It can also wait until we see who jumps into the Ozzy game. There are plenty of likely players.

Perhaps the map should be known to all (like a world or Eurasian map). Perhaps civs should start with some cities. We should discuss that.

Perhaps there should be several designated subs to fill in honestly for any player and following that civ strategy...

Thoughts?

[The Capo]

Its about time I opened my mouth.

I have read all of the posts involved with all of the Diplogames, trying to become the Zen master of Diplogames, but to no real avail.

In the eyes of most of you I am a "rookie" at best, but I can tell you that I am one fun guy to play with in a Diplogame.

I have started many ill fated games in my past, and some of their fates were due to me personally. So that's a warning.

I would be quite interested in joining this game, but at the same time me and the Oz-man were dilligently trying to establish a diplogame that would start after New Year's, since we didn't want it to fall apart we tried to slowly build it to get loyal players, but I guess its who you know.

And since nobody knows the Capo around these parts, I think it would be a good idea if I got involved. If Ozzy is in I am in.

I think we should play on the map that Ozzy so dilligently worked on at all hours of the night putting his ocular capabilities at risk.

I think we should preestablish where our tribes start from, just so we don't get any strange starting points or starting too close or whatever.

I also want to extend an invite to Drake from UltraDip, he is the Mongolians and he is really a great player. Which I think makes how many? Six right there?

Cave
Kent
Berz
Ozzy
Capo
Drake
???????

And I bet some of you are gonna be pissed and say "Who the f*ck does Capo think he is?" but ask Ozzy and Drake, its my nature.




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"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

-Winston Churchill


"Ceterum censo Carthaginem esse delendam"
"Also I think that Carthage must be destroyed"

-Cato the Elder, Roman Statesmen


One Love.

[The Capo]

Well, without knowing Cap and Mine are in already so I am kinda stupid for suggeting Drake I guess.

I have heard of all of you guys, so I think we may have a solid core here as we stand.

My only problem is when do we play?

[The Capo]

Damn, sorry for making so many posts, but I just realized that Cave is in MD, I am in MD and Ozzy is in DC, crazyness!

[drake]

Getting into arguments about who the "best" players for a game is kinda silly. The most important thing is interest and reliability. I don't think anyone would argue with that. If people don't show, the game falls through. If a player is too casual, they usually don't play the role they need to, which makes the game less interesting. If a player can't spend 10 minutes to write some reflections on their previous session, this also reflects their level of dedication. My 2c.

If there enough players interested, there will just be two games.....no big deal.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by drake (edited December 12, 2000).]</font>

[KenThur]

I continue to be interested & will stick it out, regardless of powerchart ratings & / or position.
(it's about the TEAM that wins, not the individual).

What am NOT the least bit interested in, is a map that ANYBODY even remotely involved in the contest knows. Period, end of story.

Half the fun & challenge of this entire game is NOT knowing & having to find / explore / discover a new world & the other civ's that are in it.
I mean think about it... how realistic or historic is it to have all the rulers from pre-historic times, know the layout of the entire world?

IMS-HO

[absurddoctor]

Are there still any openings for this game? I would like to get involved. Or maybe I can just be signed up as a sub, since I have no previous experience with a diplo game and it will give me a chance to learn more about them and give you a chance to see that I would actually put effort into it.

AD

[cavebear]

KenThur - I've assumed that no player would know the map (unless everyone wanted to play a real map). The best solution would be for a pair of map-makers in different games (or an independent one) to create and trade maps for the other group's game. I can make maps fairly easily now, and I know there are others who enjoy doing that as well. The only question is to learn the general parameters that the other group wants.

[cavebear]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by absurddoctor on 12-13-2000 01:10 PM</font>
Are there still any openings for this game? I would like to get involved. Or maybe I can just be signed up as a sub, since I have no previous experience with a diplo game and it will give me a chance to learn more about them and give you a chance to see that I would actually put effort into it.

AD
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

No player-selections have been made, and I am delighted to add your name to the list of interested parties. And since there are at least 2 games in planning, I doubt that there will be anyone left out. It will probably depend on the game settings that the groups select as to who will prefer to play in each.

[cavebear]

For the game I am planning (4 pm Sundays Eastern Time)I am thinking that we would not want to venture very far from standard rules. Mainly, that's because it is difficult for me to keep too many rule variations in my head. But also because, if we have to worry about some players committing havoc with Diplomat attacks or nuclear war, then (as a Diplo game) it is dead before we start.

So, I propose fairly standard settings: Emperor or diety level, large map, large land masses (or one single land mass), roving tribes (or villages only), temperate, and preset civ-starting positions (to keep a few unfortunate civs from starting on top of each other or in polar regions). Am I forgetting anything?

And we need to know who among the interested players can host with DSL or cable (and will remember to save every year). I have only dial-up service.

Oh, start-date. I assume that play on Christmas or New Year's Eves would cause problems, so I suggest Jan 7th.

[OzzyKP]

Hey Capo, give up your damn inferiority complex, we don't all think of you as a rookie. You're a better more established diplo player than most of the people in this thread.

But, i don't think you want to jump ship to this game quite yet, it doesn't seem to be the one we want. While it may seem like a ***** thing to do, i want to be able to carefully select the players in the game no matter how long it takes. Truly the elite diplo players, so we can have the best ever.

Personally i think the reason that past diplo games we've been in have failed is that we just take whoever comes along for the game. Alot of them aren't entirely sure what the concept of a diplo game are, and just show up (sometimes) and play normal multiplayer.

Also, i like the premade map, and would rather have that and the special rules tweaks we propose than the straight out random game here, so i suggest you and drake take your marbles back to the game that we started setting up long before this one.

Again Cave, i really apoligize if it seems that i'm trying to subvert your game, i don't want to do that and i wish you all the luck in the world. But it just gets kinda discouraging when you are talking about a game for several weeks, and then someone all of a sudden starts up another game to steal the thunder. I'll try not to post here anymore though, and just let you all do your thing, i guess this was mostly a post to Capo though.



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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

[CapTVK]

Cavebear said that the best date for now would be jan 7th. I'm for that date, I wouldn't be available before that anyway, christmas, vactions, celebrations et al...

I don't really have any trouble with the sort of map. Although I would like to play on the worldmap, but a random map can be just as much fun.

But I would suggest some changes in the rules.txt however:
I've decided to playtest a +2 increase in movement for all naval vessels on the worldmap and it works quite well for the gamebalance. Naval vessels before far more important and it also helps out players who are completely isolated from the rest of the world.

Another suggestion is ditching SDI at the end of the game:
Why? well, the players who's usually ahead at this time can rushbuild SDI in his major cities at this point making nuclear weapons a bit useless. In return we could replace the ICBM with a nuclear bomber with a 10-range (5 movement/turn) and a short range nuclear missile (6 move/turn). This way you'll have to sneak up pretty close with a sub or carrier to get in a shot, it should help to keep players at their toes at this point.

Those are my suggestions at this stage, anything else?

[cavebear]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by OzzyKP on 12-14-2000 01:24 AM</font>

Again Cave, i really apoligize if it seems that i'm trying to subvert your game, i don't want to do that and i wish you all the luck in the world. But it just gets kinda discouraging when you are talking about a game for several weeks, and then someone all of a sudden starts up another game to steal the thunder. I'll try not to post here anymore though, and just let you all do your thing, i guess this was mostly a post to Capo though.


<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

No problem, Ozzy. I wasn't trying to rain on your parade, either. As I mentioned at the outset, I've seen so much discussion (and not neccesarily meaning about yours) about Diplo games getting set up and going, that I thought I would try and take some organizing action. Besides, I'm sure we have slightly different ideas in mind for a game that would attract different players. It is worth having different kinds of Diplo games just to learn what ideas work best.

[cavebear]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by CapTVK on 12-14-2000 07:06 AM</font>

I don't really have any trouble with the sort of map. Although I would like to play on the worldmap, but a random map can be just as much fun.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I envision a map that is similar in continent structure and size to a world map, just with enough changes to allow for the fun of exploring uncertain territory and to eliminate the advantage of experience with the real map. At least one independent mapmaker has already contacted me in that regard.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
But I would suggest some changes in the rules.txt however:
I've decided to playtest a +2 increase in movement for all naval vessels on the worldmap and it works quite well for the gamebalance. Naval vessels before far more important and it also helps out players who are completely isolated from the rest of the world.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I agree that sea movement and land movement (via railroad) could be brought more into line. I've long thought that rail movement should have some limit on it. Maybe 20 tiles or something regardless of unit movement factors. After all a mechanized infantry shouldn't move any faster by rail than a tank.

However, is a Diplo game the place to test changes like that (sea and rail movement)?

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
Another suggestion is ditching SDI at the end of the game:
Why? well, the players who's usually ahead at this time can rushbuild SDI in his major cities at this point making nuclear weapons a bit useless. In return we could replace the ICBM with a nuclear bomber with a 10-range (5 movement/turn) and a short range nuclear missile (6 move/turn). This way you'll have to sneak up pretty close with a sub or carrier to get in a shot, it should help to keep players at their toes at this point.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I have to admit that I really dislike nuclear warfare in Civ games. In a Diplo game, it is worse. One player can commit more mayhem than the rest of the Civs can make him pay for. I suggest eliminating launched nuclear missles outright or severely restricting their range. A simple change or range to 6 or 8 squares might be easier. That would allow for some nuclear use and lessen the value of SDI rush-buys.

How does everyone else feel about any changes at all? I forsee a swamp of suggested changes, and I'm not sure we could agree on very many. To me, that seems to be the sort of thing that prevents these games from starting. But there is plenty of time to discuss them.

[absurddoctor]

Personally I would prefer as few changes as possible. I like how the original game rules. So assuming that we do get two games going out of this, I will probably just choose the one with fewer changes

AD