Crustacian Berzerker Deity Finbar Markus Jediscum (New Millennium Eurodiplomacy) - Page 3

Curumbor Elendil · January 20, 2001, 11:05

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by finbar on 01-19-2001 07:55 PM</font>
Not sure how this can be controlled. What happens, for example, if you take an opponent's city and there's only one tech up for grabs? And it's Economics and you don't have Banking? There's no means of refusing the tech, is there?

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But if he's been following the rules, then if he has Economics, he must also have Banking, right?

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Curumbor Elendil · January 20, 2001, 11:09

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Crustacian on 01-19-2001 08:58 PM</font>
The trouble with those things you mention on being able to steal techs for which you have no pre-requisites is that it can be difficult to achieve.

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It can be difficult to enforce, but if people are honorable, I don't see why there should be a problem.

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I don't really care (maybe civ3 will fix it) if someone gets economics before banking, and with any tech trading/srealing at all going on no one will ever gain a tactical lead over anybody militarily anyways.

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I doubt that very much: in Diplomacy V stealing and tech on conquest were allowed, and there was great variance among the civs in power, military capability, etc. So I'm still not convinced we need to take that more drastic step of banning stealing & tech on conquest.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Curumbor Elendil · January 20, 2001, 11:16

I've been thinking about moving from simul to turn-based in wars, combined with the 1-turn notification rule. It's a little more complicated than it might seem: if you're lower down in the turn order, you would have to give your opponent 2 turns before you could attack. So here's a new rule: You must declare war at the beginning of the turn, when it says you can move units. At that point, turn order goes into effect for all civs in combat, along with any civs that the warring civs request to respect turn order. If the attacker is above the defender in turn order, then turn order proceeds as usual. The attacker moves but does not attack, the defender moves and may launch a preemptive strike, then the next turn the attacker attacks. If the attacker is below the defender in turn order, the turn order is reversed (for everyone following turn order). The turn order stays reversed until the end of the conflict.

Examples: 1) Russia declares war on Germany and requests Austria respect turn order. Russia moves and does not attack, Germany moves, Austria moves. Everyone else can move whenever he likes. Germany may launch a preemptive strike during its turn and also has the chance to rush buy. Next turn, Russia attacks at the beginning, then Germany moves, then Austria moves. And so on.

2) Germany declares war on Russia and asks that Austria respect turn order. Austria moves, Germany moves but does not attack, Russia moves and may launch a preemptive strike and rush buy. Next turn, Austria moves, Germany moves and may attack, Russia moves.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Crustacian · January 20, 2001, 12:06

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Curumbor Elendil on 01-20-2001 10:09 AM</font>
I doubt that very much: in Diplomacy V stealing and tech on conquest were allowed, and there was great variance among the civs in power, military capability, etc. So I'm still not convinced we need to take that more drastic step of banning stealing & tech on conquest.

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I am quite sure in a stealing allowed game that no one would sit idly by and let space flight stay the secret of some techknologically advance culture. Or howies, or tanks...

"news flash!! Our clever nimble fingered agent has returned home with a fantastic new technology space flight!! Ready the Royal peddled By-plane and lets test er out!! Now how much diesel will we need if the thing could clear the atmosphere...? Hmmm, would this involve calculations based on the average beats per second of an African Swallow, or a South American one?"

The Russ are ready for whatever

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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Crustacian (edited January 20, 2001).]</font>

Curumbor Elendil · January 20, 2001, 12:13

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Crustacian on 01-20-2001 11:06 AM</font>
I am quite sure in a stealing allowed game that no one would sit idly by and let space flight stay the secret of some techknologically advance culture. Or howies, or tanks...

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You're right there - but a lot of those techs really require a strong empire to be used well: you've gotta have lots of cities to build spaceship components, or tanks, or howies...

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"news flash!! Our clever nimble fingered agent has returned home with a fantastic new technology space flight!! Ready the Royal peddled By-plane and lets test er out!! Now how much diesel will we need if the thing could clear the atmosphere...? Hmmm, would this involve calculations based on the average beats per second of an African Swallow, or a South American one?"

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Hm, sounds like some silly mediaeval English ka-nigguts who are stealing techs for which they do not have prerequisites.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Crustacian · January 21, 2001, 03:36

Yes indeed, there are modifying factors for all these things.

What is your feeling on simul turns after reading J Possidente's comments?

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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus

Curumbor Elendil · January 21, 2001, 11:22

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Crustacian on 01-21-2001 02:36 AM</font>
Yes indeed, there are modifying factors for all these things.

What is your feeling on simul turns after reading J Possidente's comments?

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What are J Possidente's comments? (I don't usually read other fora.)

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Crustacian · January 22, 2001, 02:07

It was regarding your question to him:

posted December 19, 2000 11:39
under TOT forum under "a word with you john"

Originally posted by John Possidente on 12-18-2000 09:25 AM
The simultaneous human movement thing was actually a leftover from the Multiplayer Gold Edition. The team put it in and it seemed to work, but in testing we found that it caused major game play problems, including opportunities for blatant cheating. So, we nixed it in the shipping version, but the code, like a trick knee, remained in place waiting to cause trouble. We developed ToT based on a version of the MGE code-base--thus the legacy simultaneous human turns code.

Curumbor Elendil:
You wouldn't happen to know what kind of cheating? You see, lots of people are now using the simultaneous-move feature in multiplayer games; in fact, some people are now refusing to play games without it. I'm still uneasy, though; I'd like to know the main game problems with this mode.

John P.:
I also don't remember the specifics of how folks cheated using the simultaneous movement. What I remember is the testers throwing things across the room at each other when somebody got caught. :-) It had something to do with changing the doubling parameters during the game or attacking or editing other players' cities after they'd finished their turn, or something like that

Crustacian:
We have a good group of players in this game, so there is no worry of anyone of us using these bugs he mentions, and likely this is news to us all,
and since I have not nor has anyone told me that they have experienced any of these bugs for themselves, maybe they are not a problem.

But if true that these kinds of things can be done, maybe we don't want simul moves in this or other games? Maybe a re vote is needed on simul moves altogether.

So that is why I asked you beings that you were the one to ask him and maybe you had more info on it, or drew some conclusions positive or negative on it.

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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus

Curumbor Elendil · January 22, 2001, 11:09

Oh OK, yeah, I thought you were talking about something more recent. Well, in several simul games I haven't experienced any cheating, beyond the infamous host advantage during wars. I think if we move to turn-based during wars it will be fine. If we discover problems we can always start over. Simul games go so quickly - we wouldn't be losing months of play.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Atomic Dogg · January 23, 2001, 02:55

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by deity on 01-19-2001 04:02 PM</font>
Next Thursday Aussie time (your Weds night) should be OK. I'll organise a sub, probably Lowang if available, for future Thursdays that may be a problem.

Crusty aint kicking me outta Britain that easy

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Yeah i can do that....I'll hold the fort for ya Deity. General Lowang at your service!

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-Atomic Dogg is Lowang
-"We will fight one the beaches...we will fight on the landings...we will never surrender!" -Winston Churchill

Crustacian · January 23, 2001, 03:10

Well that is good, and simul does save so much time.

So Deity, if I gain some odd oppertunity to edit one of your cities I will refrain

For someone like me who generally hates to trade maps, the thought of someone peering into a city behind the Iron Curtain of the Russ is unbearable.

Are we starting then day after tomorrow?

Curumbor Elendil · January 23, 2001, 10:03

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Crustacian on 01-23-2001 02:10 AM</font>
Well that is good, and simul does save so much time.

So Deity, if I gain some odd oppertunity to edit one of your cities I will refrain

For someone like me who generally hates to trade maps, the thought of someone peering into a city behind the Iron Curtain of the Russ is unbearable.

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I'll bet it is! Here's my guess as to when editing cities is possible in simul: when you investigate a city. Just a hunch, haven't tested it yet. Of course, no one in our game, honorable people that we are, will do anything questionable.

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Are we starting then day after tomorrow?
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Yep.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Curumbor Elendil · January 23, 2001, 10:35

I lied. I said that I had made the last revisions to the file, but I discovered a bug: the "weird god bug." The explorer unit was expiring with polytheism. So I've changed the explorer's movement points to 1, and that seems to do the trick. I've also made it non-expirable to make up for the reduction in its ability. Finally, I've reduced the attack ratings of the three bomber units by one, as they were well-nigh invincible to all but fighters. So click anywhere in this general area to download the new file. You don't really HAVE to, as the changes are just to the rules.txt, and only the host's rules.txt matters, but all the same, if you want to have the complete modpack for your personal enjoyment, then you can.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

finbar · January 23, 2001, 19:58

The word incorrigible springs to mind.

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Crustacian · January 24, 2001, 10:05

The word "game tonight" springs to mind!!

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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus

Berzerker · January 24, 2001, 10:36

So it is Wednesday we are playing - tonight? I cannot make it until 9 pm EST, I have a scheduled tribe game starting at 7 pm EST.

Curumbor Elendil · January 24, 2001, 16:34

Markus - I agree with your suggestion, but I think the enforcement of that rule should be part of diplomacy. In other words, you should say, "If you send me a caravan I will declare war on you," or, "If you don't pay a tariff of 50% I will declare war on you." In real life, embargoes are somewhat porous (witness the flouting of the Iraq embargo by Russia, France, and others). They rely on force to be carried out. If someone gets away with breaking it, then they get away with it. So it shouldn't be part of the house rules in the same way that the city bribe ban is (if someone breaks that rule, we reload the game from before the infraction).

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

finbar · January 24, 2001, 18:28

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Berzerker on 01-24-2001 09:36 AM</font>
So it is Wednesday we are playing - tonight? I cannot make it until 9 pm EST, I have a scheduled tribe game starting at 7 pm EST.
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Mmmm. If we're starting at 9pm EST, that means I can only play for 2 hours. Oh well, 2 hours of simul is going to get us a lot further than 2 hours of turn-based.

Edit. I agree with Curembor about Markus' suggestions re embassies and trade. Those options are always open to players in any game. It's a matter of enforcing them.

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Founder, ACS Pedantry Institute
Founder, ACS Gourmet Recipe Exchange
Troll & Hydey Wrangler
Mono Rules!
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<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by finbar (edited January 24, 2001).]</font>

markusf · January 25, 2001, 01:32

What about the suggestion i made?

Every player has the option to not to allow a embasy established with them.

every player has the right to refuse to let other civs send caravans. Like come on, if US imposes a trade embargo on china, do you really think china would get 60 billion a year in trade?

Atomic Dogg · January 25, 2001, 02:12

Lowang reporting.....The French Empire fares well

Looking forward to the next session

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-Atomic Dog is Lowang
-Viva Francaise!

January 25, 2001, 05:21

I vote that, since jedi didn't show, Lowang be permitted to continue as the French.
I'll find another sub if needed...

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

Curumbor Elendil · January 25, 2001, 09:27

I'm fine with that, Deity.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989