Small message

GNGSpam · January 28, 2001, 23:17

This is concerning the questions regarding the proposed map for the diplogame of Capos. This is ONLY about the map. Nothing to do with the people. I was gone this weekend and had no oppertunity to say my spill.

Capos location was rather good. It was Europe. Europe looks nice. If Capo wanted a best location, he would have moved his start one square north to get 4 grapes. He couldnt move one square north, it was a hill. It is possible for him to have made it significantly unfair if he wished.

My start position was Russia. Easily the worst start spot in the game. I didnt even blink an eye over it. My avenues for expansion were limited, my access to trade was very weak, I had poor irrigation lanes. I didnt even mention it.

Other start spots were very good. In fact Napoleans start spot was the best. I have played that map in multiplayer 3 times. Once with Capo Sun and me. Once with me and Capo. Currently with Capo, me, Drake, and Sun.

Two of those times, I was Zulu. All three times Capo was Roman. All 3 times I have been higher on the power graph. The 3rd time, I was China and Capo was Rome. We played until 1000 AD or so. I have Dragoons and Conscripts in a democracy with all but 4 Wonders. Capo is fighting with legions.

Very obviously, ethier Capo sucks so bad (no offense intended) he needs a "beefed up spot", im so godly I can overcome it (not likely), or simply put, something ive always said. Overcoming unequal starts in a NON-Duel setting is very easy to do. Yes in a Duel, spots can make all the diffrence, but when the objective is Empire building not annihlation, even if the building requires annihlation, you can overcome unequal starts with ease.

The map, and the scenario, is very even. It was originally created by Ozzy, who was not in the game. The units were added by Capo with everyones input, there is a thread where he asks. The graphics were also done/compiled by Capo, but surely no one can complain they were unfair?

Scenario parity shouldnt even be an issue.

The Capo · January 29, 2001, 08:53

Just to counterbalance Chris' thread a bit (in regards to my being lower than you, don't want people to think I totally blow).

It also illustrates how in a non-duel setting, other factors change things like starting locations. When Chris was China and I was Rome, I attempted to throw my Empire out quickly in order to establish a safe homeland to settle out. What occured was quite detrimental to my growth, at least as far as technology goes. I was engaged in a very long campaign against Russia, which required defense of my cities, I had skirmishes with the Zulu as well as the Americans, while the Chinese grew unabated, as a matter of fact (not to take full credit) I even continued to trade tech with the Chinese, which further promoted their technological gains.

My point is (other than the fact that I don't suck THAT much) in a setting like this, there are numerous factors that offset starting locations. I also want to note that the charges that my spot was dolled up are stupid, my starting location is not as good as Nap makes it out to be.

GNGSpam · January 29, 2001, 12:51

My point wasnt to say you suck (which you dont), but to mention how it is debatable whether your start spot was even the best in the game, and show how little it can matter in a diplogame.

Besides, the meer presence of me in Russia should have balanced out any possible advantage you had and make us collectivly weaker then China and Zulu as we would be fighting for control of Europe.

The Capo · January 29, 2001, 14:00

I didn't make that post merely to say I didn't suck.

But you're right, imagine it this way: You have Rome, which according to Nap

was an advantaged position. I am not here to admit that it wasn't, clearly it had a good spot, in the middle of the Med. Sea which would have been a nice peice of political leverage. Not to mention its access to the Middle East and Northern Africa especially with a southern African state rather than a northern (Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali for example).

What I was trying to say, for those who don't get me becuase I am quite sure Chris knows what I am saying, is that in the Diplogame the starting location figures so minimally, that to even say I was attempting to slight anyone, or cheat is ridiculous. With an attitude like that, not to be a dickhead, I seriously doubt the cred of Nap in a diplogame, or at least in advanced Diplomatic negotiation within a Diplogame. But I have played with him and have no other indication of this than his manner of relating the game in these threads.

The fact of the matter is, especially in a Diplogame, the starting location doesn't make a differance. If I had such a great spot, and were then locked into a war of attrition with the Russians (which was a very real and "probable" occurance... wink wink Chris)that would almost remove Rome as well as Russia from any interloping early in the game. Giving the Zulu a chance to get northern Africa, the Indians a chance to nab the Middle East and the Chinese a chance to expand into the steppe.

Thus, my position is negated to the point that it is one that is unfavorable.

By the way Chris, I can't thank you enough for lending your voice to my "cause" after being silenced by the Despot Ming. I appreciate it man.

Ming · January 29, 2001, 15:06

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 01-29-2001 01:00 PM</font>
By the way Chris, I can't thank you enough for lending your voice to my "cause" after being silenced by the Despot Ming. I appreciate it man.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

You were "silenced" because you were acting like a jerk. And your continued jabs at Nap in this thread show that you haven't learned your lesson!

SO ONE MORE TIME! Talking about the game is fine. Continuing your insults of Nap isn't. Last Warning.

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

GNGSpam · January 29, 2001, 15:46

I was meerly defending Ozzy's map and your scenario additions. I feel Ozzy's map to be far superior to the "stock" World map and would like to play all World games on it. I also felt you did an excellent job adding units/rules changes that included input from all players and was discussed before hand.