My first ever win at Multipalyer

[Rasputin]

It finally feels so good, gota resignation form Argus (eyes of night)in 1250BC.. he agreed to the setiing of deity 1x 1x 50x80 worlsd continents wet 3 billion. me hosting.. before too long his style of play was unaccustomed to the raging barbes and unhappiness, and my style was, i built good defneces and kept my people happy.
You should have heard him compalin,

Of course he weill say he doesnt care, not a real game at deity but i dont care , i finally won WOO HOO

[Ming]

Congratulations... you beat one of the best.

Rasputin forgets to mention that our first game I had 4 cities to his 1. He mysteriously disconnected from the game and couldn't get back in. Then I sent him the save and apparently the save was corrupted. Amazing how corrupt saves give the message "Game g was canceled". Then he decided that we should start over with him hosting. Fine. I let him have his way even though we both know there was nothing wrong with that save. That game he speaks of as winning I decided to concede because I didn't want to put up with the ridiculous settings. The barbarians were the only challenge in the game. I've already looked at the map so we can't continue that save as I had come back and said. However I see that you're building on forests and building barracks this early in the game. lol Come on that is just sad. So now after I lost 2 cities and a settler we're now even in cities!! You even started on a river, I let you keep the tech alphabet, and you got an advanced tribe!! That's just pathetic. I wasn't going to bother with this but since you've decided to make a big thing out of this we'll play again and I'll make what I did to you the first game pale in comparision to what I'll do to you this game. And no, deity is not a real game. The only challenge comes from the settings not from the player.

[Ming]

Deity isn't a real game?
HA HA HA HA!

Why don't you just admit your style isn't well suited for it Happiness is part of the game too...

Hey, actually I had a very good start in my game with Eyes, just a bad surrounding area

I guess small map Deity is a good setting to beat him, gotta try it later

no real game? your strategy just doesn't work on Deity, that's all.... King is the last level where settlers will probably beat Barb horsemen in defense and Eyes' expansion works without population tumults... on King, he's apparently unbeatable, on Deity, he's just an average player... lost to someone who hadn't won before, similar to the game with me... tsk.

Rasputin - apparently, you didn't let him initimidate you! Good, Congratulations!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Chaos Warrior (edited February 13, 2001).]</font>

Ok, I can see that no matter how many settings I become the best at that you're always going to try and find that one setting I can't win on. This is getting boring now. I am far more versatile on settings than all of you put together.

[Rasputin]

The first game was on same settings as second game and yes you were well i nfront and I will let you claim a victory in that one. But I obviousdly then must claim victory in second one. In first game you offered to restart because I was so far behind ( he only counts citys) but i said no, then after some technical probs decided better to start new one and let you win the first one ( I am used to losing to better players anyway)
So using same settings as first one, including all your requests of settings ( except we agreed on Deity level for both games) we started again, then using a differnet strategy I decided to defend so I built a city on Forrest to get extra sheild growth, this then created a barracks for me to create Veteran Phalnxes whixh adequately defended against all barbarian attacks.
I never complained once in first (which you hosted) where my start had no rivers and just open plains , and some fish in waters, whilst your start in first game had rivers ( good food and trade start). In second game I had slightly better than you start as it took me two less turns than you to found my first city.
Both games has same barb saettings (raging) , yet i ngame you hosted you never complained once as you zoomed away in city building. In second game as barbs attacked us both you constantly whined over you were losing to barbs not to a better player, and yet this weak player here was surving quite well agaisnt barb attack, due to my city in forrest and barracks that you dsespise. With two units in all my citys and veteran phalanxes I had no concerns, my growth in citys was only slightly lower than yours, but I wasnt going to lose any , unlike you losing two already.
Each levewl requires different strategies, but you apparently beleive that no defence is ever necessary and therefore paid the price.
In conclusion, my strategy at this level beat your strategy.

lol no actually we were even when we stopped and I usually don't have barbarians that bad on deity. A calculated risk. It didn't pay off one time, that's worth having 20 successful games.

[Rasputin]

you are only counting citys agin , we were even i ncity numbers yes, but my citys were al lprotected and safe, how many turns before you lost even more citys

[Rasputin]

also i actually just loaded the firs tturn save, you were one square from buffaloe and river.. where as my settelres started in palins next to lake.. so much for you claiming i had better start. *LOL*

I probably wouldn't have.

The river was all plains except for 1 grassland square. Building on that square was an option however I would have no ohter grassland squares around me. What's the use of a buffalo that early in the game? It's the same as a forest.

[Rasputin]

oh and one other thing how did you know how manycitys i had each turn, every time i said to you how well you were going (top two citys in top 5) you kept saying " you know we have the sma enumber of citys." which i didnt , i knew i had 4 but i only kne wof two of your, but lookimh at saved games you were right you built as quick as i did 4 and 4 .. interesting bit of knowledge,,,,

[Rasputin]

oh you would hav elsot hepas more citys, you couldnt stop the barbs with your settlers and warriors..
and a for how good a forrest is , it made me survive *LOL*

You are showing me how ignorant you are of this game. No, I wouldn't have lost "heaps" of cities. But that doesn't really matter now. As for knowing how many cities you had that was simple. Demographics. Same way I can tell the general area you are on the map, the resources you have in your city, and how many cities you have. And I was right when I said you had gold in your capital Chaos Warrior. I know far more about this game than you will ever know.

LOL, Congrats Raz on your first Mp win

I don't know how Sean can claim he is the best player when Raz can get his first ever win against him. This is too much - its just hilarious

Well done Raz!!!!

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

[War4ever]

Good for you Raz.... Eyes is a great player despite what has been said.... and arguably the best.... so again congrats on your victory and cherish it....

Your the Apolytoner saviour In fact i think the admin should give you a new title

[Rasputin]

ok which demo tells city number? is it population ? that can be very misleading due to city size. Please explain for us poor slow thinking Southerners

I can tell how many cities you have, what map zone you're in (most of the time), and exactly what you have in your city view. I can even tell what the terrain around you looks like. The demographics can tell me just about everything I want to know. Go to the gameleague site and go to the strategy section if you want to know a little bit of how I know the stuff I do. The way I knew how many cities you had was that you had 2 top 5 cities that were size 2. I too had that many. You were ahead in population however I had just lost 2 cities and I was bigger than you before. I then factored in the anticipated expansion speed I had set for you and a few other key factors that allowed me to make a very educated guess. The demographics came in by telling me what your population was and allowing me to confirm what I had deduced. That's kind of a rough explanation of how I did it. Maybe I'll write something on it someday.

Nah, actually Raz he probably looked at it on his second computer


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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

[Ming]

Whenever somebody takes forever in the early turns when they only have one or two units... it makes you wonder

Locating A Civ Using Demographics

This only works in 1 on 1 games. I'm not saying it doesn't work in larger games, but it's much harder to do and it's not really needed as much. Also this pertains more to duels on a small map. All resource values are assumed to be 2x. It's extremely difficult to do and you have to have a lot of knowledge of the values of resources and how the AI sets the map up, along with an active imagination to visualize how the map looks. Also I am assuming that the age of this map is 3 billion. On 5 billion or 4 billion the resources occur too sporadically to classify into zones. This can’t always be used, but a lot of times it can. Either way you can find out what’s in your opponent’s city view.

1. ZONES

First let us divide the map up into zones. Zone 1 is the artic region, 2 is the part between the artic region and the equator, 3 is the equator, then it goes 2 again and then 1. N1 is the northern artic zone, S1 is the southern artic zone just as N2 and S2 are north and south zones.

2. DESCRIPTION OF ZONE TERRAIN

Of course these descriptions are not set in stone, but can be used as basic guidelines for zone formation.

A. Zone 1

Very bottom region of map. Glacier, Tundra, plains, and forest can be found here. Plains squares are usually sporadic and are fairly rare.

B. Zone 2

Most diverse terrain. Can have just about anything in it. Jungles, and swamps will occur here most, but will sometimes be in zone 3 too. Mountains, hills, grassland, with even the occasional desert square. Mostly grassland however. Usually has the best land on the map.

C. Zone 3

Mostly desert and plains. Forests will occur here but will be sporadic. Occasionally there will be some jungle and swamp in this region but it's usually in patches and not widespread. Mountains many times will occur in large ranges. Grassland will also be seen here, but not in large quantities.

3. RESOURCE ZONES

Most resources occur in these certain zones, but can however be found sometimes out of their normal zones. Water resources are not included. This table shows zones of the resources, and my rough estimates of how often they will occur in these zones. * indicates a zone where the resource will occur only in extremely rare circumstances.

Buffalo: 2-35% 3-65% 1*
Coal: Just about anywhere. Not used in tracking civ.
Desert Oil: 3-80% 2-20%
Arctic Oil: 1-100% 2*
Fruit: 3-30% 2-70%
Furs: 3-60% 2-40% (only very lower regions of Z2)
Game: Same as Furs.
Gems: 2-70% 3-30%
Gold: 3-55% 2-45%
Iron: Same as gold.
Ivory: 3-100% 2*
Oasis: 3-80% 2-20%
Peat: 2-70% 3-30%
Pheasant: ANYWHERE Not as common in 3,1&2 most likely.
Silk: Same as Pheasant.
Spice: 2-70% 3-30%
Wheat: 2-35% 3-65%
Wine: Just about anywhere. harder to use in tracking civ but can give idea and tell what's in view.
4. EXAMPLE SITUATIONS

There are many situations you can tell where a civ is using demographics. It's obviously not a pinpoint of where it is, but it will tell you the zone the player is in.

A. Lets say you start out on a grassland square, no resources around you except for a forest and a lake. It's the first turn of the game, you both have a city. Now lets say you put your resource on the forest and the demographics say you are first in MFG, 2nd in GNP, and 2nd in Food production (FP). Put your resource back on a grassland square. The new values are 2nd GNP, 2nd MFG, 2nd in FP. In this situation if it shows you are first in FP then it's most likely a whale in your opponents capital. If that's the case it's not of much use to you but it does tell you your opponent is near a water source. However, if you're second in FP still then you have to go down the list of possibilities. There aren't very many that can give this combination of high food and high production along with GNP. Of course there could be a double combination of resources where your opponent built on a resource and has another one in view, but that is more rare and far more complicated. We'll assume the simpler combinations for now. A forest is obviously in view. Silk won't give the food but pheasant will. Now in order to get the GNP your opponent has to be on a river. TO test this we put our resource on the lake. If you're now first in GNP then your opponent has a pheasant and a river in view. This doesn't give a clear distinction of what zone your opponent is in, however it does tell what to look for. If you're still second in GNP then there's two resources in play which is far more complicated and would take a lot of writing to explain how to figure out what exactly they're using. But I want to assert that it is definitely possible to figure out what they're using in most cases.

B. Lets take another situation. Same resources in your city as before. You put the resource on the forest just as before, but this time you're second in MFG still. However you're first in FP, second in GNP. It could be that you're tied for first in FP, so take all your resources off and put on an entertainer. Look at the demographics, if you're second for FP then the following could be true: You both have the same resources and are using a forest, a river could explain the higher GNP of the opponent. Your opponent is using a double resource equation to explain the higher GNP, MFG, and either 3 or 4 wheat surplus (the amount of food going into the granary). If you're 1st in FP then your opponent is almost definitely using a combination of iron/oil with a river. To make sure it's a river and not a double resource combination use the lake again. In this case it shows you as first in GNP showing your opponent is using a river. Now the probability that your opponent is using oil on the artic is very low so we'll rule out zone 1. That leaves zone 2 and 3. Now we know that mountains occur in the upper regions of 2 and all along 3 and that oil is primarily in 3. So our target is the equator. It could be very possible that your opponent is on a river with iron down towards the bottom of the map, but it's far more rare.

Obviously there is some room for error using this technique, but it gives you an idea of where your opponent could be and in some cases a very clear idea of where they are. In the examples I know it's a little confusing and I didn't go into all the combinations and possibilities. I basically gave the examples to give you an idea of what this does and how to do it. You can't always use this technique because sometimes there are just too many possibilities. Majority of the time though you can or at least get some sort of advantage from it. Also, there may be a few mistakes up there because it was very hard to explain how to do this and got a little confusing trying to explain all the possible combinations on paper. It takes a lot of experience and a lot of practice to master using this so if you can't get any results on the first few times don't give up on it.


If I have to I'll explain some of the other neat little tricks I know about the demographics. This should do for now though. Tell me if you have trouble comprehending it. I know you apolytoners are a little slow.

ACtually this works on all settings. However the locating portion only works on certain map settings. Other settings make the terrain too random.

[Hydey]

Well done Raz, you are indeed a civ god.

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I am the real Troll
A.H. is a nice guy
Sooky Sooky La La

[Rasputin]

well done Sean, good explanation, you obviosuly spend most of your turn moving citizens and checking demographics, no wonder its so slow at first...

[Ming]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Rasputin on 02-17-2001 01:28 AM</font>
no wonder its so slow at first...
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

That's one explaination

[agharta_id]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Rasputin on 02-13-2001 07:02 PM</font>
It finally feels so good, gota resignation form Argus (eyes of night)in 1250BC.. he agreed to the setiing of deity 1x 1x 50x80 worlsd continents wet 3 billion. me hosting.. before too long his style of play was unaccustomed to the raging barbes and unhappiness, and my style was, i built good defneces and kept my people happy.
You should have heard him compalin,

Of course he weill say he doesnt care, not a real game at deity but i dont care , i finally won WOO HOO


<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>


YAH RASPUTIN! BRAG! BRAG! AND BRAG SOME MORE! you are far closer to real play that EON! you should take pride in your win, which came from complicated managment, not mindless expansion ... sean complained because his level of play "king" is inferior to "deity" level play ...

democratic and republican governments easily managed on king, and this is why sean can build tens upon tens of cities ...

That's funny, I've always been known to prefer Monarchy. Agharta you're pathetic. You say War4Ever sucks when you can't even beat the guy. Your preferred settings is a huge map with 7 AI and not only that it's the ONLY settings. You are nothing compared to me. I really really hope you're not from America or I fear that the average American IQ is severely hurting.

[agharta_id]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by EvilProphet on 02-17-2001 08:50 PM</font>
That's funny, I've always been known to prefer Monarchy. Agharta you're pathetic. You say War4Ever sucks when you can't even beat the guy. Your preferred settings is a huge map with 7 AI and not only that it's the ONLY settings. You are nothing compared to me. I really really hope you're not from America or I fear that the average American IQ is severely hurting.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Well, from where ever you are from the IQ scores are surely no better. Under my handle I have clearly stated where I am from: Canada. Those who dont read before writing are just as bad as those who do not think.

When did i say war4ever sucks? what ARE you talking about?

Monarchy is also belittled on King Level ...

[War4ever]

ah agharta you did say i sucked..... i think my icq chat log can verify this if i were to pull it up... i believe i asked you if you said this to sean or not....which you admitted to saying in some sort of round about way