Another happy evening of multiplaying Part II

February 7, 2001, 17:13

The last happy evening ended with a player leaving our group it seems. As far as I'm concerned, Deity is OUT. I wonder what this chapter holds

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

February 7, 2001, 18:19

So, Alexanders Horse, you use a smilie.
You try to lighten it a bit, eh?

How about a full apology to me first? Please?

Ming, are there any rules about this?
This seems completely unfair to me.

You can't just call people things like that just because you are upset about losing a few units.
You seem to be looking for a way to NOT play me.
I said if I was wrong about the unit bribe I would go back a turn. But in just about every game I've ever played, including the Tourney 2000 and other big international and diplo games,unit bribe has almost always been allowed. I would say that it is the less experienced players who require *no unit bribe* (unless it is the occasional special settings game)

I have since discovered that you DEMAND *no unit bribe* in other games that I'm not party to. You insist on game rules in a bullying way and only suggest putting things to the *vote* when it suits you.

You have behaved very badly AHorse. And very arrogantly.
I remain a part of the Aussie group unless the others don't wish to play me.

As I understand it the rules in most of our current games are:
No city bribe
No formal alliances

It's not really appropriate to vote on SIMUL/TB during war because it's not so much a game rule as part of the mechanics of play. As has been discussed in various threads SIMUL during war is completely unfair to non-hosts and slower connections. My experimentation and experiences bears this out.

BTW, you don't have to restart the game to switch to TB once war is declared. All you do is PLAY your turns in the normal turn order - the honour system

As for honour, Alexanders Horse, you have little.
* You are an abuser beyond the bounds of reasonable humour.
* You are a bully in determing game settings on the run.
* As a host you are irresponsible.

I expect a full apology but I won't give you the pleasure of not playing you.
Alexanders Horse, I'm still in all our games. You are running scared I think

I'd prefer that finbar or Hydey hosted though....

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

February 7, 2001, 18:38

What are you doing here Deity? This thread is for people I play, which no longer includes you. And there is nothing in this thread against you, but don't push your luck.

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

finbar · February 7, 2001, 19:22

This beats Lennox Lewis -v- Mike Tyson, and I don't have to pay for Pay For View.

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<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by finbar (edited February 07, 2001).]</font>

February 7, 2001, 19:24

Would anyone be interested in the true story of Onion Island? I was fully consulted before that sorry incident

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

War4ever · February 7, 2001, 20:45

Deity the only flaw with your story is the host advantage..... after all you did bribe horses chariot and trireme....

and he was the host IIRC

Ithink the two of you should just kiss and make up..... your best of friends and have been civing for far too long now to throw a friendship away because of a misunderstanding on both your parts... shame on you two!

Both of you have allowed personal preferences to get in the way of the game..... therefore the collapse of this game is not Deity's fault nor is it Alexander Horse's fault...... The group failed to communicate its settings at the outset..... that in itself is a failure...

Voting midgame is wrong.... set it up right the first time and then you don't have these problems.....

BTW my vote is on Tyson

February 7, 2001, 21:16

Friendship doesn't come into this - I still consider Deity a friend - in spite of all the cut and thrust.

I just won't play with him again until this is sorted out

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

finbar · February 7, 2001, 21:55

War4ever as peacemaker? Pull the other one, it plays the "Mr Ed" theme!

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February 7, 2001, 22:11

I now find myself in the unenviable position of having my Italianate friend finbar cast such a reasonable doubt as to make my accusations of Deity tenuous to prove at best and at worst wrong. What am I to do?

I don't think I could face having to chaperone my forces around with diplos or have them go out 2 by 2 like Mormons

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

War4ever · February 7, 2001, 23:11

come on Finnie.... oxymorons are a part of life

Alexander.... most games played by myself and it seems like alot of others allow unit but not CITY bribe.... however, you may be playing by different rules of course.....

February 7, 2001, 23:21

Yes well War, this is what has the potential to create the greatest confusion. Over the past few months, Hydey, Lowang Berz and I have been the regular players in the group and we have been playing no unit or city bribe. Deity has rarely been available and finbar went overseas. Now I could have sworn they were both aware of this but obviously that belief has been completely punctured by finbar in the other thread. I am at a loss because of course now I can't sheet home my case against Deity (although I still believe he knew full well that unit bribe was out - I can't remember the last time I had a unit bribed in this group).

Having said that, you are also right to point out that agreements on settings need to be rock solid and clearly understood by all. For example we play with ai civs and I only found out last week that my co-players have been merrily bribing the cities and units of ai civs whereas I have been busting my hump duking it out with them for months

So now you can all go and have a good laugh at our expense

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited February 07, 2001).]</font>

finbar · February 7, 2001, 23:51

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Alexander's Horse on 02-07-2001 09:11 PM</font>
I now find myself in the unenviable position of having my Italianate friend finbar cast such a reasonable doubt as to make my accusations of Deity tenuous to prove at best and at worst wrong. What am I to do?

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Sorry. I can only report my recollections.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font> I don't think I could face having to chaperone my forces around with diplos or have them go out 2 by 2 like Mormons

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Horses on pushbikes in suits with short haircuts could be fun.

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finbar · February 8, 2001, 00:00

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Alexander's Horse on 02-07-2001 10:21 PM</font>
I can't remember the last time I had a unit bribed in this group).
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

That's the point. Apart from duels, it's never happened. Which is probably why there was never any agreement on whether it should be allowed or not. It was tossed into the melting pot of house rules at the starts of games and passed over. As you have rightly pointed out before, we have very gentlepersonly games.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>For example we play with ai civs and I only found out last week that my co-players have been merrily bribing the cities and units of ai civs whereas I have been busting my hump duking it out with them for months

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

As far as I'm aware, it's been long established that humans can bribe AI units and cities. They can (and will) do it us, therefore we can do it to them. The point being, that unit bribing, and turn-based for war for that matter, are not the only unresolved issues.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>So now you can all go and have a good laugh at our expense

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Look upon all this as high class entertainment for the prols out there. We supply the only erudite abuse on this site!

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<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by finbar (edited February 07, 2001).]</font>

War4ever · February 8, 2001, 00:20

Well that clears up this issue for me...... its a misunderstanding no matter how you look at it... some times tempers flare.... a couple of weeks ago i had my capital sacked by tons of elephants.... lost the wonder i had caravan rushed and the hanging gardens plus my palace..... size eight city reduced to size two.... three whales and a mined wine...i was using everyword i knew of the four letter variety......but it wasnt' personal........

Kudos to anyone who attacks.... as for caravans and triremes...... hey casualties of war....if i had boats lurking around your coastal cities i would tell you they were full of caravans too..... if you skimp out on defense and it comes back to haunt you.... thats your fault...... besides you should never allow anyone to drop of caravans..... your bonus is always far less than the oppositions...

Backstabbing..... part of civ..... sometimes the best part of civ is the diplomacy and the treachery..... racing through the tech tree is fun, but throwing in skirmishes and having cold wars.... thats where in the fun lies .... just my .02

I still say go back to the earlier save......give deity his TBS..... horse rebuke the cheat comments.... and deity has to come to terms with no bribe at all for this game.

February 8, 2001, 00:34

War, I know its pathetic but I suspect Deity only wants to go back a turn in the hope of saving his 2 ships and 2 cara.

But cutting thru all this, I have been wargaming for nearly 30 years and when cr#p like this starts, in my experience the end is usually nigh. People who start stoppages in play for rule disputes are best avoided. They do it once, they do it again and again. There are always grey areas. Deity seems to be fairly sh*tting himself, for reasons I cannot fathom, over simult war and the rest of us I dare say are equally daunted at the prospect of having to wait for Deity to finish his war turns again (if we go back to TBS).

Also of late, when Deity plays we get less play in. First we get the Deity, "am I free to play tonight" fan dance (this take on average half an hour), then we get the Deity "let's haggle over which game we play" shemozzle (another half an hour); and now we starting to get the Deity "I don't like the rules" stoppages in play

I really wonder if its worth the effort frankly. If Deity doesn't show up we can normally get a game up in 5-10 minutes and we've had no stoppages in play that I can recall.

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

War4ever · February 8, 2001, 00:51

Alexander i sympathize with your plight.... for instance tonite i was supposed to play with more than one individual and after waiting over an hour two different times.... now i might play for a bit but basically my night is pretty lame unless this proposed game i am about to enter is worth it.....

As for Deity.... its been along time since we played and i have the utmost respect for him as a player and confident....

I am not taking sides just trying to salvage what seems to be a cry for help from your gaming circle. Ultimately you four or five will have to make the decisions which best fit your needs......

As you stated you have the experience of wargaming , much more so than myself.... yes there are players who try to push their rules...... but look in the mirror.... do you see some of deity in yourself?

The two of you are squabbling over minor personal points..... meanwhile the rest of your mates are the ones who really suffer.... it reminds me of a tit for tat relationship...... i think its time to let these squabbles go and for the sake of finishing this game.... just move on....

Next time you have a new game..... or agree to another session.... just be assertive in your desires to make all rules and or settings known in advance..... if you play by democratic vote you may not like what you hear.... the other alternative is to not play and we all know that is the last one of the choices you or i would pick.......

looking forward to playing you guyz... i am sure we can iron out our preferences

Atomic Dogg · February 8, 2001, 01:11

I'll use every dirty trick in the book against the ai.......death to the infidel!! Jihad on their unworthy asses!!

as far as i knew, unit bribing was out...if only because nobody had done it to me for all the time i have played in this group (which hasn't been a very long time.)

Perhaps we should carve the house rules into a couple of stone tablets for future refference....only then can we truly seperate the sinners from the rightious...

------------
-Atomic Dogg is Lowang
-Where did i leave my bible?

February 8, 2001, 01:57

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Atomic Dogg on 02-08-2001 12:11 AM</font>

as far as i knew, unit bribing was out...

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-Atomic Dogg is Lowang
-Where did i leave my bible?
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Thank you Lowang.

Next witnesss! The prosecution calls Hydey!

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

February 8, 2001, 02:12

I can honsetly say that, like finbar, I thought the only two rules agreed on that deviate from the normal game were No Alliance and No City Bribe of humans.

To get the Aussie group up again we need a vote to set rules for all our games in progress.

I vote for the above rules. They are standard throughout much of 1x1x civland.

As for SIMUL, well ALL our current games were started before we knew about SIMUL. I was the one that saved the TBS saves as SIMUL saves so that we could speed up our games. I have strssed all along that SIMUL during war is absurd and you miss out on all the fun by trying to cover so many areas of activity. So, as for ground rules ALL our current games that I am in were set up as TBS!

But, for the sake of the group I'll accept the vote on all these points.
Thanks for your efforts War4

If diplo-bribing of units is dis-allowed by this vote I'm happy in that particular game to go back a turn and disband the caras I lost if they still exist.
And allow AH to attack with that Chariot if he so desires.

Can't say fairer than that eh?

I guess the 5 regular Aussies are the ones to vote:
finbar
AHorse
Lowang
Hydey
deity

Also, I must suggest that this is a vote for what YOU want, not what you thought you were told was the rule.

As for scared AH, hmmmmm, try getting out of this

You are trying to avoid playing me now but I really want to keep playing you.... no matter what

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by deity (edited February 08, 2001).]</font>

February 8, 2001, 02:15

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Alexander's Horse on 02-08-2001 12:57 AM</font>
Thank you Lowang.

Next witnesss! The prosecution calls Hydey!

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Lowang was new to the group and was TOLD by SOMEONE that unit bribing was out.

Let's have a fresh democratic vote to clear the confusion as per my above post.

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

February 8, 2001, 05:29

http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HT...tml?date=08:36

This the link to the last post in the preceedimg thread on these issues....

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

Hydey · February 8, 2001, 17:40

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by SuperSneak on 02-08-2001 12:15 PM</font>
What a bunch of maroons!

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Nice try Uncle Sneak but Dad is so mad it will take more than calling us maroons

to bring this group together . Keep trying we all know the best way to bring us Aussie together is on the battlefield.

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I'm Australia's nuclear cop
I am the real Troll
A.H. is a nice guy

SuperSneak · February 8, 2001, 20:42

I'd be glad to verbally abuse your mothers in order to attract hostility toward me.
What a bunch of girly men.

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Bring it!

"How ridiculous and how strange, to be surprised by anything that happens in life." Marcus Aurelius (Meditations)
Chief Revealer of Personal Foibles

finbar · February 8, 2001, 20:46

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by SuperSneak on 02-08-2001 07:42 PM</font>
to verbally abuse

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Only ******* idiots split infinitives.

How's that for hostility?

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SuperSneak · February 9, 2001, 01:15

What a bunch of maroons!

BTW...I'll be free this weekend in your crazy hours...let me know.

------------------
Bring it!

"How ridiculous and how strange, to be surprised by anything that happens in life." Marcus Aurelius (Meditations)
Chief Revealer of Personal Foibles

SuperSneak · February 10, 2001, 01:05

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by finbar on 02-08-2001 07:46 PM</font>
Only ******* idiots split infinitives.

How's that for hostility?

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Not hostile at all. Merely antiquated, pedantic and hide-bound.

When discussing the English language, a "split infinitive" is commonly thought of as adverbs placed between the word 'to' and the verb. Thus the infinitive is thought of as the construct 'to' plus a verb. Further, the grammar gurus encourage us to think of "split infinitives" as a bad thing. The reason being that in Latin, the infinitive is a single word, so by definition cannot be split. And English grammar gurus like English grammar to follow Latin rules (hence also another silly rule about not using a preposition to end a sentence with).

There are two problems with this. Firstly, if the "infinitive" should not be split, then surely neither should, say, the future tense. After all, the future tense form of a verb in Latin is one word, while it is two in English --- as it involves the auxiliary verb "will" or "shall". ((I) shall go = (ego) ibo in Latin). Yet I for one have never heard complaints about "I shall boldly go" constituting a "split future" therefore a bad thing.

Secondly, the infinitive does not actually need the 'to'. It is frequently used without the 'to' in standard English, as exemplified in any of these constructs:--

I help build the house.
He can be a star.
God must be omnipotent.
I shall build a house.
I do not build.
where the form of the verb 'be' or 'build' in the above examples is the infinitive. (The future tense is the construct 'shall'/'will' + infinitive.) The word 'to' thus has a similar relationship to the infinitive of a verb, to that of the word 'the' before a noun. But no-one considers the word 'the' to be part of the noun. Sir Ernest Gowers, writing in 1954, is quoted originally in The Complete Plain Words, thus:--

"The well-known [...] rule against splitting an infinitive means that
nothing must come between 'to' and the infinitive. It is a bad name, as was
pointed out by Jespersen [...] 'because we have many infinitives without
_to_, as "I made him go". _To_ therefore is no more an essential part of the
infinitive than the definite article is an essential part of a substantive,
and no one would think of calling _the good man_ a split substantive.' It is
a bad rule too; it increases the difficulty of writing clearly [...]."
...like spurious rules about prepositions not ending sentences.

One of the things which annoys me is people clumsily rearranging their sentences to avoid pseudo-errors like "split infinitives". Often the "split infinitive" construct is the most natural and sensible one (eg "to sexually assault her" is more natural than "to assault her sexually" and certainly more natural than "sexually to assault her"), so even if the rule against them was valid, it would still be a bad rule.

Why the misinformation?
I suppose, the grammar gurus got confused about the use of the infinitive with 'to', and the single-word infinitive in Latin (and French and Spanish). 'Amare' often is best translated as 'to like'. But 'possum amare' is 'I can like'. As demonstrated above, the infinitive in English can occur without 'to'.

At the end of the day, the rule against "split infinitives" is a totally artificial rule, invented by some 16th-Century grammar guru who was trying to be clever.

So you see, Fin, a movement toward a more natural language pattern takes priority over your inane picking at trite and hackneyed usage of said language.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious, though.
I knew you were good for something.

------------------
Bring it!

"How ridiculous and how strange, to be surprised by anything that happens in life." Marcus Aurelius (Meditations)
Chief Revealer of Personal Foibles

finbar · February 10, 2001, 07:15

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by SuperSneak on 02-09-2001 12:05 PM</font>
Firstly, if the "infinitive" ...
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

"Firstly" is considered inferior to "first" in this context, Sneak, even if you're following it later with a "secondly".

Oh, and it's very poor form - especially for a writer - not to source information you lift.

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<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by finbar (edited February 10, 2001).]</font>

February 10, 2001, 07:24

Hey Sneak, why do you work in a factory?

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

Hydey · February 10, 2001, 19:07

He works in a factory to earn money.

why else would he work

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I am the real Troll
A.H. is a nice guy
Sooky Sooky La La

SuperSneak · February 10, 2001, 19:17

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by finbar on 02-10-2001 06:15 AM</font>
"Firstly" is considered inferior to "first" in this context, Sneak, even if you're following it later with a "secondly".

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
By whom?

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
Oh, and it's very poor form - especially for a writer - not to source information you lift.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Firstly, you don't consider the Internet a viable source.
Second, I didn't have my MLA handbook on me in order to properly site that idiot.
Moreover, I don't care.
Heretofore, you have been a royal pain in the ass, so I was just having some fun. (How's that for ugly word usage? I'll bet it's like fingernails on a chalkboard).

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
Hey Sneak, why do you work in a factory?

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
The same reason you're a faceless drone for the government: my genius is unappreciated in my time.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
He works in a factory to earn money.
why else would he work

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
You guys are just so clever aren't you? Then Hydey waltzes in and proves, beyond the shadow of a doubt that his WISDOM is worth more than your "intelligence" or "cleverness" any day.
Thank you, nephew.

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Bring it!

"How ridiculous and how strange, to be surprised by anything that happens in life." Marcus Aurelius (Meditations)
Chief Revealer of Personal Foibles