Tales From The (Still) Diplomatic Front II - Page 3

Pseudo · September 26, 1999, 14:15

In keeping with the spirit of formats presented thus far; I shall do the same. Forgive my first attempt:

CHINESE GAZETTE 1st Decade of the Kai-shek Republic (1774 AD)

Shocking News Revealed! MUST SEE!

In what is being called the dupe of the century, Chinese officials have just released earth-shattering news. With the new dynasty of Kai-shek in its infancy, state employees have been swamped with a mountain of tasks in an attempt to clean up after the recently ousted Tse Tung Republic. It was not until recently that a report on the War with Russia was found in the deceased Defense Minister's office. This Casualty report clearly shows that NO Russian Freight has EVER been attacked and destroyed by ANY Chinese Unit. In fact, no modern day units of Russia have been destroyed at the hands of the Chinese either. Historical reports show that the Russians used a SUPPOSED attack on freight as an excuse to invade China for the preservation of Trade. Such clandestine approaches to world politics, when discovered can not be rewarded. The Republic senate has suspended all agreements with the Russian State, until exact details can be accessed. However, officials expect, unless further justification can be found, that the Treaty with Russia will be voided. In addition, if these results are proven, reparations will be sought in the world court against Russia.

Baptism by Fire for Consul Chiang Kai-shek

"Welcome to our world, Mr. Kai-shek, now give me…" or "You owe me this…" These were just some of the phrases heard by our new leader Chiang in his meetings with the world's Heads of State. Bombarded by demands from around the world and faced with domestic turmoil in many key cities, Chiang applied the same skills of Diplomacy and Management, which got him elected Proconsul, to the chaos at hand. By simultaneously ceasing the dedication to science that has enveloped the rest of the world, and by building up the Treasury and increasing the luxury rate, the Chinese population has boomed in happiness never seen before. The new Imperial Senate has also instituted sweeping city reforms and imposed a new four year mandatory service requirement, all part of the new Rearmament Plan of 1766. "With a strong treasury, economy, and military, China will no longer bow down to Foreign Pressures. Chinese citizens have been subjected long enough to mediocrity, this will be no more."

Russian Deal Frees New Yakutsk

After a long, drawn out battle of diplomatic wits, war was narrowly avoided with Russia this decade. Upon reestablishing order in the land, the Imperial Senate began the road to restoration of the old Republic. The first step came when the JTF accepted a cease-fire in hostilities. The second step was much more difficult to take. By seeking the restoration of New Yakutsk to Chinese rule, officials hoped for the return of the merchant fleet to the seas. Russian insistence for reparations (on which validity is now under investigation) sparked heavy negotiations between the two nations. With crack troops ready to strike, war was averted at the last moment and our troops were pulled back in order for negotiations to begin. For the return of New Yakutsk, Russia opened with the demand of 200 gold, mobile warfare, and an undetermined city. China's foreign minister countered with the offering of the Kamchatka Peninsula for Russian settlement and 200 gold or mobile warfare. The final settlement allowed for three small Russian settlements in the extended Kamchatka Peninsula and 750 gold and the ban on offensive naval units out of New Yakutsk.

Vikings Pursue Policy of Blatant Expansionism

While the Russian situation heated up, the invasion of Korea ceased and Chinese military forces took a defensive stance along the frontiers; the Vikings quietly pursued the "return" of Nanking. Many officials old enough to recall the history of China/Viking relations have called it the insult of the century. With the demand for Nanking dumped upon the Imperial Senate, these older Chinese and foreign officials were quick to come forward with stories of the rape of Nanking and four other former Chinese cities by the Viking horde, in what has been called blatant expansionism. Chiang was given a standing ovation as he appeared before the Imperial Senate and proclaimed the refusal to give up Chinese citizens to any foreign government. Negotiations over the remaining four Chinese cities has reportedly gone poorly. Coming off of their hard fought diplomacy battle with the Russians, Chinese diplomats welcomed a break in discussions with the Vikings, as both sides were clearly tired from the long day of battles.

On Lighter Side

The Chinese Republic was proud to be involved in the shattering of the world trade record. Novisibrisk received silk from far away Bogota for a record 1109 gold trade profit; The JTF was kind enough to share the profits with China.

CapTVK · September 27, 1999, 06:45

World Review: Nr.3

By the the English Ministery of Foreign Affairs

This is the current situation in 1772:

Russians (25 cities) Pasti2 Size: Large
Japanese (30) GrauGeist Size: Large
Vikings (17) Milo Size: Medium
Aztecs (28) Nappy Size: Large
Chinese (14) Pseudo Size: Medium
English (18) CapTVK Size: Medium
Sioux (14) *open* Size: Medium

No real surprises here, the big three get bigger and the playful quartet tries to keep up. The Chinese are back into the game while the Sioux fall behind. Due perhaps to the fact that no Sioux leader was present this session.

Map and other news to follow...

[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited September 27, 1999).]

John Barbarossa · September 27, 1999, 13:36

Fantastic to see this game still up and running. I thought I had played my last Civ2 when my latest diplomacy game collapsed due to busy lives and a general lack of steam. Its great to see the endurance of this game and the eloquence of the contributor's diplomacy, proving that it can be done and that diplomatic Civ can go the distance.

I would like to see more 'open letters' to specific nations dealing in more depth than the average world roundup can. I am particularly interested to hear more about the Vikings recent dispute with China and would welcome reading further exchanges covering the main issues in detail. It sounds like Japan has mastered the true art of align and conquer diplomacy, offering seemingly the only ray of light in the new Chinese Consul's first session. Fantastic stuff all round.

Let me know if you plan on starting a new game. I would love to play a 4000BC game with as many of this group as possible.

Regards
John

Superstar · September 27, 1999, 14:22

Open Letter to Pres. Chiang of the Chinese, from the Great Pres. Superstarski, Overseer of the just and free nation of Russia

The recent article featured in Chinese Gazzette has lead to suspicions of foul play from my wisened negotiators.
It was indeed stated that freight units onboard a transport had been attacked at sea. This statement itself is true. Reading between the lines I don't think that we said we had lost these units.
It has always been Russian policy to escort vulnerable units in dangerous or unkown seas, as indeed the Pacific was. Contact had been established, (with an immediate declaration of war by the old Chinese leader) and Russia was therefore wary of sending peaceful units unguarded into the Pacific. Fortunatly our great Navy was vastly superior to China's, and their ironclads were no match for our destroyers and cruisers. Therefore we were attacked, but our resiliant forces proved too strong for our would be assailants. We hope this clears the matter up, as if the treay is declared void we might have to take New Yakust back

As a foot note, we issue a formal warning to Chinese aggression. We will not tolerate military action against our eternal Allies the Vikings, and condone any threats against them.
The Russian military experts are aware of China's strength, but warn China that our own is greater, better equipped and more advanced. We also have greater potential for increasing it at any time. We dislike threats (veiled or open), but it appears to be a language that the Chinese understand too well.
We strongly advise you leave Viking territory alone or negotiate peacefully any disputes. Our combined forces will be no match for yours and you will only lose in the long run. I suspect that other nations will be wary of entering a 2nd (or is it 3rd)
world war in such a dangerous era.

To other nations, I warn again of the rashness that handing territory so readily over to a nation that appears to be continuing in a hostile stance, can bring.

The Russians are hoping for an ease of tensions, but cannot sit back and let ANY of our allies be pushed around, as I would hope that they in turn would (and have in the past) come to my aid.
Please Chiang, do not let this matter get out of hand, settle for your inheritence. As you yourself have stated, any problems I had with China in the past are not down to you and we should start with a clean slate. So it should also be true that any past disputes of Chinese territory should remain in the past, and down to the old Chinese Govt.

Thank you for your time gentlemen, and I'd like to reinforce that this is strictly a diplomatic point, and we continue to welcome Pres. Chiang to our world. This is strictly business.

(Is that an ok open letter John? Personally I'd be happy to start a new game with you in the future, as you have a somewhat legendary status).

CapTVK · September 28, 1999, 05:36

The New English Times: issue 12 Special edition

Not a long session this time due to some unfair moves concerning SETI which meant we had to restart at 1766 again. For the rest of the session it was excellent diplomacy all the way.

P.S
I'll be away from friday 8 oct till the 10th. If anyone would like to sub a medium strength civ wedged firmly between two worldpowers for a session, here's your chance!

A new geopolitical worldmap as of 1772AD:

Main Changes
Thanks to new leadership (and a solid army) China makes a comeback. First on the Chinese agenda were the JTF with which they signed a cease fire which quickly improved relations. The Russians were next with the return of New Yakutsk to the Chinese in return for the unsettled region of Kamchatka and a sum of gold.
Tensions with the Vikings remain however as many of their cities originaly belonged to the Chinese. It's clear that the battle for control in Central East Asia is far from over...

A final note:
The English have always had some concern over the battering China took in the last few centuries and the resulting 'landrush' that took place at the cost of the Chinese. That's why we announce that the Chinese government can count on our diplomatic support during the negotiations. As the English have no direct interests in Asia we can act as a neutral negotiator in further discussions

other news to follow...

Nice to see you're still around JB. Would love to play a Civdiplo session with you but at the moment we're still busy with this one!

This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited October 17, 1999).
[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited November 28, 1999).]

Pseudo · September 28, 1999, 17:26

(I'm really enjoying this game, nothing personal taken Super

now here is something back at ya!)

OPEN LETTER TO: President Superstar FROM: Proconsul Kai-shek

Dear Sir,
It is humourous that your letter clearly states that a naval battle occured to the success of the Russian Fleet. According to records recently uncovered, the Chinese Navy never lost an ironclad. nor possibly possesed such a tool, though that is quite unknown. Rather, taken in addition with your own veiled threats, it is apparent to us that this war between our sucessors and the Russians was clearly provoked by the Russians in an attempt to grab a colony in amongst the diminishing available land in the world. (Your historical representation of real chinese history is uncanny, though a century early

)

We are a relatively new government and have great pride in the peace and exchange with you that occured in our infancy. Nothing more clearly can be done in this matter. You yourself have stated that the peninsula would be settled with or without our blessing. You have our money and not likely to return it, as we are not prepared to return our people to Russian rule. So it is apparent that nothing more can be done and that the world will continue on. However, (as the computer always says) your reputation in dealing with us will proceed you whereever you go. And we will be weary of any agreement or promise your nation makes.

Unveiled: please be aware; yes our military strength is grand, and yes you have the ability to build yours as well. However, projecting this power and building it up take time and money combined. Both of which neither of you have. And something neither of your governments will allow. We are a peaceful people who just want international justice. One city of little importance is all we requested from the Vikings. It seems only fair if we are going to be able to compete in the global economy. Especially after decades of expansionism and destruction caused to our ancestors by the Vikings.

Superstar · September 28, 1999, 19:15

A reply to Pres. Chiang from Pres. Superstar.

Thank you for stating that nothing personal was taking, (I was worried) and be assured none is taken by myself.

i don't know where you receive your historical evidence from, but I must once again state that you are incorrect. My navy was attacked, and thus your seaport was taken.
As to my military status. Yes I am in democracy, but the great Women's Suffrage movement has made a considerable difference to my troops staying away from home. My army remains greater than yours, and with proposed airports transportation will not be a problem. As for money my treasury takes only a single turn to improve considerably, and with the added bonus of several Freights about to form new trade routes, my cashflow will only improve.
I am also near major military improvements, and state once again that my army is ready and willing.
The Russians will honour the New Yakust agreement until such a time that Chinese aggression is deemed unacceptable. I.e. Any attack on Viking territory. There are peaceful soloutions to these problems, and I recommend that Cap take up a negotiatory role due to his claims of neutrality. Please do not enter into a war on China's side Cap, or else our allied status will be revoked, and the proposed city deal we have will be shelved. We wish to continue our fine relations with the English, and it is with great pain that we make these statements.

Once again Chiang, we beg of you, find a peaceful soloution.

Thank you for you time, and may peace prevail in our time.

Pseudo · October 1, 1999, 15:24

(yes I'm glad we cleared it up that these are game character statements)

To President Super
From Proconsul Kai-shek

Dear sir, again we laugh at your reasoning. You clearly point out that your attack on my predecessor's port city was was because of an attack on your navy. Please consult your records, for ours show no evidence of either losing an ironclad ship or of any Russian ship being destroyed in this lifetime. It is this evidence that is damning to your case. But, as I have said, the deal is done.

As for the satus of your military, yes the Women's Sufferage monument that your advanced nation was so able to construct only covers one out of two Russians that will be upset over an overseas military jaunt. Secondly, overseas is the key point, this affects time and distance from any attack you may carry out. We are not proposing a counterattack on your continent and home soil, where you no doubt have many citizens ready to take up arms against an aggressor. Rather it is you who propose an attack on foreign soil far away from the immediate support of your citizens. Be wary,

Quote:

"whomever controls the land controls the war" -Sun Tzu

The Chinese nation also wonders why it is only you who speak out, and not the Vikings, who are at the center of this controversy? Perhaps it is they who should be expaining why they have conquered and kept many Chinese cities, yet are unwilling to release any of their captives? I thought they too were one of those benevelant Democracies.

Grau Geist · October 1, 1999, 15:31

(Thank you Psuedo for passing on the info from CAP on how to spice up these posts. CAP you should be ashamed of yourself for not sharing this earlier, everyone look at the bottom of your replies and click on the UBB code for these neat tricks)

Quote]MINISTRY OF TRADE INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT TERMS AND REGULATIONS[/Quote]

The usage of International Airports by foreign merchants will be governed under the following rules, regulations and terms of occupation
[list type=1][*] International Airports will be used for Trade purposes, any other use will be punishable under extreme prejudice.[*] Airports can be occupied consecutively by a foreign nation for a maximum term of three turns at the cost of 50 gold or 10% of the earnings from the trade establishment. These terms are negotiable. [*] Airports will be returned exactly as they were handed over, on time, punishable by a 50 gold fine. Transports must be present or they will end up being destroyed in the handover.[*] Any attack on foreign freights using the airports or on borrowed JTF transports will result in a declaration of war by the JTF on the attacking power.[*] By declaring these Airports International trading zones the JTF gives up any usage of these sites for military purposes and/or waging war. Respectfully asking all nations to declare them offlimits to potential warzones.[/list]
[This message has been edited by Grau Geist (edited October 01, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Grau Geist (edited October 01, 1999).]

Grau Geist · October 1, 1999, 17:03

Damn I lost the meat of my post trying to figure out thes UBB codes, I don't want to write it all out again so in a nut shell

Bogotá International Airport is opening in 1776 with rail access to south america

Reykjavik International Airport is opening in 1776 with transport access to the North Atlantic.

sites are being considered in Africa and the Pacific for the future

oh and by the way this is all in time for the 500th celebration of the Federation Communist Party's overthrow of the Shogunate. yeah :-|

Grau Geist · October 1, 1999, 17:04

Damn double post cu you all tomorrow 10am pacific, noon central, 1pm eastern, 6pm GMT, and 7pm GMT +1 whew how do we do it?!
[This message has been edited by Grau Geist (edited October 01, 1999).]

Superstar · October 1, 1999, 19:34

Official apology to Chiang, Leader of the Chinese.

I have indeed checked my records, and it appears that you are correct. It appears that my memory is not what it used to be (probably because I have been ruling the Russians for several centuries). I think the real reason for rememering the ironclad was that I saw it near one of my transports. Anyway, my sincerest apologies and boy do I look stupid. The deal remains however, and the Chinese still declared war on me. Any nation that does so can expect to suffer similar consequences.
As for the Vikings, yes I wish that they would speak out more. I continue to support them however, but cannot fight their corner alone Milo.

Interesting Airport offers GG, I'm sure I will be taking you up on the offer soon.

Thank you for your time Gentlemen, any comment or discourse is cordially invited.

KenThur · October 2, 1999, 09:04

The Year of Our World, 1772
Viking Foreign Ministry Position Statement:

We have righted the wrong the out-of-control Sioux leadership perpetrated on our fine nation earlier this century while our true leader was away. We brought our western-most city & it’s great cathedral back under our control with relative ease since the people of that fair city most appreciate, & are appreciated by, the free citizens of a democracy! Hear, here!!!

On the other hand our northern-most city, also taken over by an out-of-control AI Chinese government during the same time period, has remained in Chinese hands. This is due to several factors;
1> the new leader is from the human race & we did not want discourage participation in our world’s affairs by overwhelming him,
2> he was rather involved with making peace with the other civ’s the AI Chinese had managed to enrage & start wars with as reported above,
3> our new leader, a “Nice Blonde”, assumed not only this world’s duties from Milo “the Dammed” but also wife-god’s shop management on the Sixth Day, which again caused attention & time to be split between world leadership & dealing with the Customer aliens from other worlds.

The Vikings agree that this being a former Chinese city that did not prevent the building of the Trans-Gobi RR or otherwise hinder the reasonable development of our once-little Viking civ and in the spirit of world mutual cooperation, we will not pursue the re-taking of it.
However, we must point out again to the new Chinese leader, Chiang-Hi, that WE the Viking BUILDERS are the one’s that took a pathetic little city & started it on the way to full development of it’s potential. To whit; other than the marketplace & some roads & irrigation WE, at OUR EXPENSE & LABOR built the following that the new Chinese leader “inherited”:

Barracks 40 shields
Granary 60
Temple 40
Marketplace 80
City Walls 80
+ Terrain Development: 2 mines & 4 irrigated squares all with roads or RR
+ At least 1 rifleman, possibly a cav unit.

Now the newly arrived Chinese leader wants even more cities “back” for free or he will send his huge armies to take them back!! How far back does he believe a BRAND NEW dynasty has a “right” to? Does his new-found military “might make it right”?
Is this the new standard for our world? Non-democratic, military-driven governments & their new leaders can simply burst on the scene, spend their artificially-inherited gold treasuries on building an even more massive military than the artificial leaders before him did. Rather than develop all the rich, open available lands to them & no other civ? If this is to be, then with the approaching development of this powerful new energy source that is rumored to be capable of destroying entire cites & everything around it… what chance has our world of preventing the ruination of our entire world? Not just a few disputed border cities? Perhaps this should be discussed more fully along with some of the items at the end of this communiqué.

As for settling the current situation facing the long-standing Viking/Chinese border cities, which also has great impact on:
 the our long time friends the JFT & their world-leading Comade(?) GG,
 our staunch allies, fellow democracy, & long time friends the Russians & their remarkably sharp President Superstarski,
 our new friends the Aztecs with their tough & now scientific leader, Dr.Nappy.

In the interest of world peace & in the spirit of diplomacy, we Vikings are willing to return 1 more city to the new, seemingly permanent Chinese leader. But only in return for compensation for the many improvements, inside & out, the Vikings have paid dearly for since acquiring said city. Plus the costs associated with the city already taken from us. We will do this for:
a> 2000 gold +
b> 2 tech advances +
c> permanent peace treaty with an attitude of “Cordial” or higher +
d> cooperation on allowing our freight to pass by said city to overland destinations in Europe.

We would remind the all leaders that we have the UN wonder & tho apparently not directly enforceable, should war break out, the other civ’s are required to make peace with us WHEN WE WISH. And it has been the policy of the esteemed group of multiplayers, that such investments in wonders be respected by human leaders as it would be by AI leaders.

This offer of peacefully handing back to a new regime what we Vikings have worked so hard for since ancient times is a tough decision, but a fair one in light of the inclusive nature of this world. The price is cheap by today’s standard of trade routes that yield 1000+ gold (congrat’s by the way) plus economies & governments that can leverage good land improvements (as are around all Viking cities) to more production than ever dreamed possible when the Vikings paid for these cities.

The choice is yours Chiang-Hi. Peace & prosperity or war & ruination of both our civ’s. I & my allies & friends await your decision. Remember, we ALL & the potential world leaders that read these posts ALL, will remember.

================================================== ===========
General Gameplay Items:

This issue of the AI, especially civ’s with an inherent “aggressive, expansionist” characteristic, MUST BE addressed. Too often during the course of this contest carefully crafted agreements & long-standing relationships have been negated or ignored as soon as AI takes over a civ. Especially true if for more than a session or 2; altho there is mounting evidence that at this deity-level, they take off on their own agenda in a matter of 2-3 turns. This obviously has distorted the course of “history” on many occasions, mostly for the worse.
Not that real history has had its examples of shifting alliances & former enemies becoming allies & vice versa. And there have also been cases of civ’s that were reliable, stable neighbors becoming vicious for short periods of time due to a sudden internal change of governments/power brokers.
The only “fix” I can think of to at least mitigate some of these more violent swings of AI-run civ’s attitude & therefore behavior is via “attitude modification”.
#1 > humans rulers MUST check their diplomatic attitudes & adjust them before the final save of EVERY session.
#2 > have someone such as the last host or perhaps even better, the ruler of the smallest/weakest civ, go into the AI civ’s & adjust their attitudes to more accurately reflect the TRUE, HUMAN interaction-based relationships that civ has/should have. This obviously might lead to debate along the current leaders. But this is a “diplomatic” game & if it is that important to a particular human to have a particular AI civ’s attitude toward it set at particular level… then we, or at least those that care, can discuss (ala, the UN Security Council). Otherwise, a standard setting of something like “receptive” should be set if their attitude is something more hostile than that.

Manhattan Project:
Now here’s a good one… hmm-m-m-m. A tough call. All I can say/think of at this point is to once again look at real history & how the world & it’s leaders reacted/handled it.
If a civ builds & uses a nuke to control an out-of-control enemy = ok by me.
If it builds & uses as means to simply expand their civ = the other leaders should ban together & smash that civ.
If it builds & uses nukes in a desperate attempt to wipe out the civ that has launched the leading spaceship… STOP the game. Restart at the previous turn, deny entry into the player that did it, & finish the game.
Or perhaps at that point, call it an obvious victory for the lead spaceship & figure out the places behind the civ. Based on… hmm-m-m-m, another fun debate/discussion, huh??

Pollution:
Another serious problem that can affect us all. Let me point out as many of thee probably may know, this can also be used as a powerful strategic weapon by land-locked civ’s against civ’s that have many coastal cities exposed to the effects of an icecap meltdown.
As has been pleaded before; we must ALL do our share. There seems to be no direct way to control other civ’s pollution generation &/or cleanup short of direct military intervention. Economic controls are also limited (unfortunately, 1 cannot sever a trade route once established), but there are some embargo pressures against new trade & tech’s that could be brought to bear on violators. And of course, we have the court of public exposure & opinion that we can bring to bear. To this I would add, the civ score DOES include negative points for polluters, however if a civ spends the time & resources to build solar plants that help us all, that should be factored into final “standings” also.

Passwords:
How / why / when did everyone’s passwords get wiped out??!!
This I personally DO NOT LIKE no protection, especially in these troubled times & new, unfamiliar leaders coming & going. PLEASE, everyone make sure your civ is protected… not just for your sake, but also for your allies.

Also along the lines of spying, it seems some of the capitals have spies. How does 1 discover / uncover / throw them out?

Look forward to another rousing session!?

[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited October 02, 1999).]

Superstar · October 2, 1999, 09:52

Very wise words indeed form Milo, will all players please take note and perhaps even vote on the China situation. A new player should not be allowed to step in and seize control of several cities occupied by a faithful and dedicated player, just because they once belonged to that Civ historically. Surely handing back all conquered cities defeats the purpose of war?
Milo has made a huge impact on world affiars, most notably his peaceful involvement in the Great Aztec war, which finally found peace amongst the larger civs.
I say don't make Milo's civ smaller, the guy deserves our respect in putting up with 2 of the most aggresive Civs in history on his borders(most notably when AI controlled) and should not be squeezed further.

Some good issues on pollution and nukes also. I agree with the Nuke reaction proposals, it won't ban Nukes, but will prevent them from destroying our world. As for the Capital city option, I personally don't like the tactic of Nuking it and destroying spaceships, but I'm open to debate on that.

One other thing, when a player finally wins, how are we going to decide who came 2nd etc.
I feel that a world history should be compiled (not that I'm volunteering mind) and each players diplomatic and social achievments be recognised.

A rememberence service for leaders lost.
Including;
JB, SF, Pastieman the first, urm, Trojan Man, the Sioux player (what was his name?), I can't remember the others, but I'm sure others can. Icer? was he one?

Grau Geist · October 2, 1999, 11:55

The game must be allowed to run its course, we can not continue to place rules as we go outside the character realm. If we all agree that an agressor deserves punishment then it occurs in the game, whether embargo, occupation, etc.
As for the Chinese/Viking situation,(continuing out of character) this is indeed a difficult situation. If China has the military strength to roll over Viking positions I gather that the Vikings will have to be a little more appeasing. Might has always made right, are we to suppose that this little world we have created is an exception. It is the winners who make history. Note the Aztec affair, in reality the Aztecs were probably innocent, but fell to the triple alliance, because they were weaker and refused to give.
If milo truly isn't in a position to make demands then he should tred lightly. I'm sorry but just because he has been an original player does not mean we should adjust the rules. Neither would I expect anyone to adjust the rules to read we shouldn't stop the JTF from conquering the Sioux because Grau has helped me in this way or that (just an example).
Now Pseudo seems to be more dedicated than any other late entries to the Sioux or Chinese, heck even more dedicated than the original chinese, who if memory serves didn't even write a post.

We were demanding of Nappy, Cap was demanding when he arrived, so it seems as if we have another new and interesting situation in this case. I for one will be interested to see how it all works out.
As for passwords, I'm pretty sure that they drop out if a player leaves before the last player takes their turn.
Damn Matt, that has to be a harsh reality, good for you for admiting it, I was afraid those posts were going to become a series of yes you did, no I did not

CapTVK · October 2, 1999, 13:08

The New English Times: issue 12

Official response by Vikings speeds up negotiations
by the editor:
Glad to see Milo has finally posted his response, now I can post my own.
My main concern about the recent happenings concerning the Chinese civ was the beating it was taking. That the Vikings wanted to expand up north was reasonable as there was nowhere else to go to, nothing wrong with that. After the Russians and JTF decided to join in the great China 'free-for-all' I feared that it would be eventually reduced to a civ that would be of no use to any player interested in playing China.
Everyone has trouble with the AI civ's on occasions, the Sioux are indeed a bit agressive and they've declared war on me quite a few times too. Yet I've never decided to do some serious city grabbing while the AI was clueless. Why?, because another sub could come along and play the Sioux and it wouldn't be much fun if he was reduced to a <10 city civ, even with the bonus of 'Artificial Inheritance'.
Although the 'AI' might explain that why the Viking leadership is a little bit nervous about the military strength of China!

Anyway. the Vikings have stated their offer now and we already know the Chinese demands. Now it's time for some serious negotiations it's time to enter the conference room.

Gentlemen if you please...

KenThur · October 3, 1999, 09:46

Viking State & Defense Dept. Quick Response Commentary & Advisory(1782):

As this world's leaders now know & hopefully will begin to understand... democracies DO know how & as important, have the means to fight aggressive, overly expansive regimes of lesser forms of government.
Though this freedom comes at a cost... where the hell were U fellow democrat Superstarski!!! Just when the Vik's needed U most! As their "Declaration of Independence" says; "...life, liberty, & the PURSUIT OF WOMEN".

Tho totally "unprepared" for a war, having made peace & drawn reasonable borders over a century ago, the free & peaceful citizens of Vikingland were happily(at least since the "Dam failure" & tech-theft incidents)building their economy. In the last 3 decades we have been wantonly attacked without provocation by 2 new dynasties of our neighboring civ's. Apparently these new leaders thot that Artifically created gold & military units HAD TO USED on SOMEONE, so why not their "weakest" neighbor... in this case us Vik's.

Starting 2 decades ago the Sioux had learned(?) that they are no match for the city-buying power of the Vikings. Since then, they have continued to smash their offensive attack units on our fortified hill & mountain border defenders. Costing so far at least 8-10 units, with not a single Viking defender lost!

Last decade, the highly-publicized "negotiations" (or should we say, Chinese demands) came to a head when, despite some rather incredulous diplomatic " support" from other nations (who will NOT be forgotten), the Viking leadership & it's citizens refused to simply give 2 cites away for a song. World leaders, both old & new, could not (cannot still?) understand that it VIKING blood, sweat, & resources had built those cities & the area around them; NOT the Chin's, old or new. ):

As communicated above; in the spirit of fairness to the new capable(if not enlightened) leadership (& we all hope, dynasty) in China, we set a fair price on the 2 cities. It was a PRICE, not a starting point for negotiations. The 2000 gold was less than 2/3 of the wealth they had accumulated & only 2 turns of trading with their new-found best friend with their "international" airports.
We even moved all our units out of Cw, the city of Bach's, in anticipation of the very reasonable deal we had offered!

It seemed that other leaders, including the new Chinese, didn't understand or believe we Vikings were prepared to take back the city taken from us while our human dynasty was away. But we first dealt with our former ally-turned instant enemy, discribed above. Then we were going to get back the Chin city that was taken from us & renamed Nanking. Which without the "human touch", was taken with no loss/sale of improvements of reduction in pop due to a fight. =MUCH VALUE in that city's worth.

Since the deal(s) were not being favorably responded to & it was becoming increasingly apparent the Chin's, encouraged by the leanings of others, our DEFENSE Department ordered the closing of the borders & the putting to sea of our naval units in the area. While dispatching DEFENSIVE units to severe the RR & roads leading to our cities. These units, altho no threat to the Chin units stacked up in their border fortresses, were vicously attacked & destoryed! But they did their duty by slowing down the onslaught of what the Chin's & others thot was going to be the quik rollover of 2-3 Viking cities.

Comments from uninformed non-particpants indicated that others believed our gold reserves were being depleted due to bribe attempts (frankly, as the very capable Chaing not doubt knew, the cost of converting units of a republic only 6-8 squares from their capital would be prohibitive). Fortunately these comments only aided our free citizens in disguising the fact that the economic power of a free society with a rail network can be rapidly converted & applied as military power(VETERANS, we might add; democracies may be peaceful but we are not stupid).

Not surprisely, the Chinese army rolled south. Our gallent defenders fought off several waves of attackers, which destoryed many improvements & population in these battles. The port city of Ca fell finally to the swarms of invaders.
Surprisingly(honest), they made NO movement to simply walk right into Cw, the Chin's never really wanted Cw & Bach's!!?? :O
However this gesture + the fact that they could have moved even further into our territory to the southeast but stopped... was later taken into considreation in reaching a new settlement price.
But first... they & some of this world's other leaders needed a demonstration of the power of Viking democractic citizens!

To make a long story shorter, suffice it to say:
1st > our new armor & old cannons + our heroic little destroyer(the crusiers were still a turn away)smashed through the quick perimeter Chin units had thrown up;
next > 2nd wave units eliminated the unit(s) left in Ca;
next > newly arrived reserve units from Viking homeland cities rolled up thru SE Asia, thru the burnt out hulks of Chin tanks, over their wounded arty units used to kill our valiant defenders, & right up to the outskirts of our former city, "Nanking". Further penetration was possible but time was running out due to an arriving flight of "Customer Aliens"(!)+ we wanted to show restraint as Chiang had.
Finally > our citizen engineers rush built fortresses around our advance units to protect them from any counterattack, should the Chin's (& frankly, we) did not agree on new settlement.

Considering our mutual losses & the now war-torn condition of the PORT city they always wanted, a reasonable reduced price was tenatively agreed upon. The other world leaders, seeing the massive bloodshed that even a brief modern war can cause, were most gracious at this point in helping & allowing the time for talks to proceed. We & I'm sure Chiang, are most thankful.

With more Aliens swarming into my alternate reality, I had to trust the Chin's NOT to attack & honor the ceasefire. Chiang was most honorable & did not. His surviving advance units immediately started pulling back. Plus, again, they did not make a move on our western border toward(a now well-defended) Cw.

Ridding my other world of aliens, I returned & the "Treaty of Ca" was signed.

I will leave it to others to calculate the cost of our brief, bloody border war & the details of the deal.

That is all (enough?)! May peace & prosperity rule over (most of) the world!

[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited October 03, 1999).]

Superstar · October 3, 1999, 18:17

A few ideas.

Pollution.
Yes, that old enemy is rearing it's ugly head again, and this time it's nearing global warning point.
This will effect everyone, and will drastically mess the map up. I personally don't have any pollution, so don't see why I should suffer. I don't think trade embargo's will work, so I have a radicall idea to sort the problem out. Any Civ with more than 3 polluted squares should have to pay non-polluting civs gold. This will hopefully act as a preventitive, and will also act as a world fine for dirty nations. Just an idea but something must be done soon.

End of game scores.
I reckon that a points system should be arranged for each civ. Maybe by nominating certain catergories (i.e. expanse, no. of cities, quality and size of army, diplomacy etc.).
Every player can vote on a points scale, or something like that.

Next Weekend.
Cap and myself are away, and at this crucial moment in time, I propose a one week break. Milo and Cap have agreed, but it's up to the majority. It'll also give the opportunity for those with wives/girlfriends to take them somewhere nice, and prove that their not married to Civ addicts

Pseudo · October 3, 1999, 22:09

Fine by me see you all at Noon central on the 16th of October then. I know this turned out to be a lot longer than expected, but I hope its good reading.

Code:

An Excerpt from recently published memoirs of Chiang Kai-shek, titled The  Formative Years

When the people and the Imperial Senate realized that Mao Tse Tung was leading China towards ruin, they needed a leader of formidable skills to replace him. I was happy to oblige and eager to provide China with a new direction. As a boy under Mao’s reign I remembered hearing stories of the war with the invaders to the south. Countless acres of lands were lost to these barbarians, who ran over Mao’s useless army and proceeded to sack our towns and slaughter our people. Defeated Mao, offered peace and the lands and people were lost to the invaders. After some years of peace and prosperity, new invaders came to our lands. They claimed that Mao’s puny outdated fleet had prevented them from reaching the rich trading lands of Asia. In a lightning strike, as if they had been waiting for that very moment, not one, but two foreign nations seized the last two port cities of China. These are the memories of my childhood, and the forces that shaped me and my rise to power. (Thank You, game members for your contributions so I could retell this history)

After the senate unanimously elected me to the post of Proconsul, I immediately ordered that former Consul Mao was to be put death for his high treason against the Chinese people. For he had taken the nation of my birth from a proud civilization to a nation subjugated by most of the world. The Senate had seen that the remaining cities were defended, but (despite my critic’s proclamations) Mao had left the coffers completely empty and the military outdated. The people were screaming for change as our demographics showed our nation 6th and 7th in most categories, save one; family size. In poverty our people sought to solve their unhappiness with children. I would then mold our nations’ only advantage into my own.

Once Mao was executed we found 715 gold in his private bank accounts and began to use this towards rebuilding a nation he tore down. Merchants, who wisely left our great lands to seek riches abroad, were redirected. With a little help, for a percentage, from eager trade partners, the coffers of China grew through leaps and bounds. More merchants were dispatched and new ways were sought to bring goods to foreign markets.
Science was abandoned completely, luxuries were improved and every city celebrated Proconsul day for decades, despite the highest tax rate this nation had ever seen. City management became a priority on the domestic scene despite the frequent interruptions over foreign affairs. The taxes rolled in, city improvements were carefully constructed, and the military was built up, and engineers went to work. All of this was temporarily at the cost of catastrophic pollution that infested our lands. A striking army of two cannons and some cavalry were quickly updated to a modern army with tanks and artillery pieces. Thus the domestic scene was fortified to deal with the foreign affairs that paralleled it.

The early stages of Chinese foreign affairs were strewn with demands from many nations. As I cleaned up and fortified the domestic arena, I was verbally besieged by the Russians, Japanese, and Vikings, plus I was told to honor an age old alliance with the Aztecs. Of the aggressors, the former wanted peace, the second a cease-fire, and the last wanted land. I chose to deal with the Japanese at first, they appeared to have an odd placement of land holding, so I was weary of their past and intentions. I quickly negotiated a cease fire, to protect China from attack, but leaving a negotiated peace for later. The Japanese seemed willing to trade and thus the cease fire preceded the establishment of many profitable routes, with the JTF taking a percentage for use of their transports and later airports.
Armed with more historical information, I parlayed with the Russians next. Seeing their precarious position on the continent I began to use my growing military strength to its advantage. The city was indeed precariously defended, but their President fought the hard fight and we both came away from the negotiation table, rather than the battlefield, with what we wanted. It was later realized that during the negotiations we had been duped in our historical facts, but a late apology and the realization that we had bigger problems, tabled further worry about the matter. In the end, the negotiations bought our people, of what is now called Beijing, out of slavery, and brought to the nation its first seaport in ages.
The final aggressor was now left to deal with. Not only did the Vikings want land, they wanted money as well. This was a shock compared to earlier negotiations. I was well versed in the intricacies of my nations past by that time, and was not willing to let a 5th city go to the barbarians to the south. However, it had been decades, and it was too much to hope for the peaceful return of all 4 captured cities. So I gambled, I made a threat that I could now back up. The reaction I received was very interesting. The initial proposal from the Vikings stated that 2000 gold and one technology would get us the city of Cw and we could keep Nanjing! This was of course preposterous, the Vikings clearly did not realize the precarious situation they were entering into, to suggest we pay for a city we did not ask for and one we already had.
I countered with a proposal of my own, the Chinese desired Ca, not Cw and we would pay 1000 gold and two technologies. I felt that this was very generous on my part, but the Vikings wouldn’t negotiate. I believe they were stalling for time to boost their military presence on the mainland. I gave them an ultimatum, they refused, so I unleashed the new army. 3 rifleman and 1 alpine unit were crushed by Chinese forces as they took Ca and the surrounding countryside. Time constraints, for we wasted valuable time waiting for the Vikings to adjust their proposal, and good will caused me to cease the army’s movements further into Viking territory. Cw, which had been left barren by the Vikings, still ignorantly pursuing their 2000 gold deal, was spared; the army group assembled to the north waiting patiently in their fortress.
The General in charge, apparently a bumbling hold over from Mao’s reign, neglected to protect the many of the exposed attacking units and they were cut down by the Viking counterattack. 7 military units, a few obsolete, and an engineer were cut down as Ca was lost. Our defenders managed to take out a cannon and a fighter that attempted to cause more damage. In the end, evidently because of our restraint and because the Viking’s had gotten the chance to show their stuff, the Viking President lowered the terms of territory for peace and the exchange began.
Now that the main threat was over, a quieter negotiation began with the Japanese to normalize relations. A deal was constructed and the final Chinese port city in foreign hands was returned and Khabarovsk was renamed Harbin. In return China recognized Seoul and Nakhoda, as well as the Island cities of Hokkaido and Osaka. Also China agreed to help Japan demonstrate the benefits of the International Airport. The concept was at first odd, and we doubted its usefulness. But they proclaimed that the record trade from Bogota to Lanzhou (formerly novisibrisk) was due to airports and accomplished in record time. We agreed to the 10% commission and took control of Amazonia (Bogota International). The resulting trades were more than we could have hoped for, the record 1288 gold on a single trade sold us on the idea. We then utilized the Iceland Airport and hoped for a similar gain.
Surprisingly, little was heard by us from our supposed “allies” and they even had the gall to ask us to buy technology from them during the struggles, no support through technology or money or units. We heard:

Quote:

“we need money, want to buy some technology?”

The Chinese people were not very impressed by their neighbors lack of support.
With Peace established and the Chinese coffers firmed, it was time to retool, take the people off of their drugged luxury high and build up the research department. Science was again pursued as the Chinese quickly discovered the concept of Nuclear Fission and thus began the on a project to exploit this technology. Behind everyone in technology, except perhaps the Sioux, I began the great learning period. Using our coffers I accepted offers from other civilizations to buy technologies. With these purchased technologies I then turned around and traded with other civilizations. The end result, our historian (after the host transfer sequence) declared to us that we were the second most advanced civilization in the World.... Not bad for a couple days of hard work.

CapTVK · October 5, 1999, 00:05

The New English Times: issue 13 Special edition

Good session this time with a small scale conflict in Asia between the Chinese and Vikings which finally ended in a peace treaty and some major map updates.

Also replaced some of the older maps with links to speed up this thread

A new geopolitical worldmap as of 1782AD:

Main Changes
China is firmly in control of it's sea border now with the return of Ca (Nanking?) under Chinese rule. The Vikings may keep the other cities including the one with JS, for some reason they thought they had to hand it over too, which lead to some confusion during negotiations. Another point in Asia remains the land granted to the Russians a session before. This 'land/city-deal' may not be valid as the 'transport incident' claimed by the Russians never occurred!

As for the rest of the world...a small update in the Atlantic ocean at Iceland and another white spot is filled by the English in South America. After reaching agreement about a new English settlement with the JTF some sessions before this spot was finally settled. It's beginning to get crowded in S.America but then again, it's getting crowded everywhere.

Other news to follow...
[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited October 04, 1999).]

Grau Geist · October 8, 1999, 00:41

Code:

FEDERATION WEEKLY 1784 AD

CHAIRMAN GRAUMOTO ANNOUNCES HIS RETIREMENT
The great Chairman Graumoto has announced his retirement upon the day of his 80th birthday celebration. A successor has yet to be found, but the early front runner is Trade Minister Hirograu, fresh from his International Airport success. Other possible candidates include Defense Minister Tojogeist and Navy Chairman Hito. Chairman Graumoto has refused to comment on the subject of his successor.

A RECORD TRADE INAUGURATES THE INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT SYSTEM

The Trade Ministry announced a record trade route has been established thanks to the new International Airport system. The Chinese, first to appreciate the significance of the system, used Bogotá International to establish a record one time 1288 gold trade route with a continuing route production of 26 trade arrows generated between the two cities (13 a each). The Communist commitee, at first unsure of the project, has approved construction of the International Airport of Taipei and developement of new site to service Kyoto in the jungles of the congo river. The Trade Ministry invites all interested parties to take advantage of these new trade producing monsters.

NAVY ANNOUNCES COMPLETION OF INDIAN OCEAN FLEET

With the christening of the Carrier, Isudoro, the completion of the 1st JTF Carrier group has been achieved. The Fleet has immediatly begun excercises in the Indian Ocean, currently known as the Japanese back yard. Proposals are underway for the continued development of a Federation Fleet for the Central Atlantic and Pacific areas where substantial Federation presence exists. The Navy has stepped up production in order to achieve the Defence Ministries' Global Reach policy for the modern world. The recently created Airforce is also keeping up with the new policy and concerns are still rising
over the Army's inability to keep up with the demands of the Defense Ministry

DEFENSE ANNOUNCES PLANNED UPGRADE OF THE ARMY

Defense Minister Yamamoto has announced sweeping reforms for the JTF Home Forces.

Quote:

With the dawning of new technology our military has become somewhat obsolete. Our recent inability to intervene during the conflict in Asia has made it very clear to us that the Domestic agenda has far outpaced our Foreign Affairs and Defense agendas.

The land forces of the JTF are lacking in up to date technology. Crack alpine troops are needed to replace aging riflemen units defending our cities. The dawning of mechanized infantry and armored have replaced the need and usefulness of many JTF cavalry brigades. With the widespread influence of the JTF across the globe, the Defense Ministry has done a great job on developing an Airforce and upgrading the Navy, but at the expense of the Army. Sweeping reforms should change this over time.

WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION EXPRESSES CONCERN OVER WEAKNESS OF THE AZTEC NATION

The World Trade Organization has announced today, concern over the current state of defenslessness assumed by the Aztec Nation. Ambassadors from across the globe have reported that more than half of Aztec cities lay barren of defense forces. Concern is rising as the Aztec neighbors continue to build up their forces, while the Aztec government neglects its responsibilities. [quote] Trade can not be assured in Aztecland. The worlds' freightors are not safe where there is a lacking of military defensiveness. Barbarians can run rampant and where peasants and religious fanatics are allowed to run free.

( how realistic is it, even in a diplomatic game, for a nation to remain virtually defenseless! This has not been a short term situation either, We have all notice 28 cities and @11 units for many sessions now. With Treaty of Rome, the Aztecs were never supposed to be completly de-armed. Rather, They were expected to no longer maintain offensive Sea units. However, this treaty has long expired and though the Aztecs have done well in competing in the Domestic arena i.e. Hoover and Seti, they have been lacking in the foreign and diplomatic arena, which is eveident from the Chinese posts, if you were their friend where were you? The Aztecs were once the #1 civ, what happened? Nappy if you no longer have interest in the game, please allow us to pass the civ off to someone who will.

As for other topics that have come under discussion, with the development of SDI technology I beleve one's capital city is automatically protected, so Nuking a capital city and taking it to force a spaceship to return is not viable option. As for taking someone's capital, as long as a suitable alternative city is nearby that capital will be moved in CivII and the spaceship will not return, at least this is what happened all the time when I was playing one player against the AI, but it may just be the AI that gets that chance. As for nukes themselves, we can not artificially ban their use or existance before we have experienced them. These details will have to be worked out between a session where nukes present themselves and that next session.

Let us remember this game was made in the image of our own history and reality. In the Future lets try to deal with problems in the same way. Our idea of a diplomatic game is not that war will not exist, suffering will not exist, tyrrants will not exist, or that general meanness will not exist. It is our goal to test the game to its limits, to experience all its facets. There have been tons of threads about games that don't even progress into A.D. It is because these all out military conquest games abound, that a Diplomatic game was created. We have been some of the first to see the use of tanks and artillery in a limited war. We will be some of the first to see the appplication of nukes, the effectiveness of mech inf and howitzers, and perhaps the first to undertake a human space race. For me, this will probably be the first and last long term civ II game that I will ever play, therefore, I want to make it the best game it can be.

For future games, for those of you who will continue the tradition, alliances such as the Japanese with the English or the Russians, can not be allowed to exist for the duration of the game. As I said earlier, the game was made in the image of our history and reality. Alliances have never lasted almost 5000 years, nor should they in a multiplayer diplomatic game. An idea that I had was that each person participating should be allowed to keep a certain leader in power for a set number of years, decades or even centuries (for successive rulers could have the same styles or system of checks and balances to deal with in thier government (senates, congress, commitees, councils etc.) Each person would develop that character over time, but would then replace him with a new personality in time. Effectively, an aggressive, militaristic civ could after centuries become a civilized perfectionist civ. A human controller should be expected to create a number of different characters for thier ruler through out a whole game. It would take creativity and understanding that "nothing personal" goes on in the game. In this way as a civs ruler changes in personality, alliances would change as each civs interests changed. For instance a Japanese alliance with the English and Russians was appropriate in order to put down the Aztecs. When this is achieved, what reason do the Japanese have in maintaining an alliance against the Aztecs for millenia? none. These are all governing items that must be included into any future civ dip game. I apologize for getting into a tangent, but this is food for future thought.

[This message has been edited by Grau Geist (edited October 07, 1999).]

Pseudo · October 13, 1999, 11:14

Inspired by recent events and previous posts; I dare to attempt a new sort of fictitious writing style….

Broadcasting from deep inside China, our foreign correspondant relates the story as it unfolds before him….

Quote:

A most unexpected event has cast a shadow over the land of China. In what appears to be a military coup, Chinese tanks roared down the center of the capital city, Xi’an, and surrounded the Imperial Senate Forum. After a short and uneven struggle, Forum guards were forced to give up their posts, and their benefactors. Initial indications are that a majority of the Senate was then arrested and taken to an undisclosed location. No further reports of their safety or whereabouts has been discovered. These troops appear to be loyal to General Genghis Khan.

Khan, who was in charge of the recent expeditions to retake lost Chinese territory from the Vikings, was recently asked to resign by Proconsul Chiang Kai-shek. Kai-shek openly blamed Khan for the Chinese losses suffered as a result of the Viking counterattack on Ca, which lead to the loss of many Chinese troops and the retaking of Ca by the Viking military. He cited Khan’s inability to fortify gains as grounds for dismissal, and asked for his resignation a few days ago. It seems, if Khan is indeed behind this coup attempt, that Chiang has his answer.

So far, troops loyal to Chiang have retained control over the rest of China’s cities, but word on the street is that attacks on these cities will be sure to follow. These events are indeed surprising, as Chiang had great support from the senate and apparently the people after his great diplomatic and domestic miracles.

KenThur · October 14, 1999, 00:42

Viking Sentinal (Extra Addition):

Seems these are revolutionary times in many of this world's civ!?

We ernstly hope this does not portend an age of darkness & wars descending on our finally peaceful planet?

Our government's cabinet seems to agree with Comrade GGmoto, that it is unrealistic to assume that because a civ disarms, that it must not defend itself against other leaders & peoples that grow envious at the prosparity & advances that civ achieves. And other civ's would be hard-pressed to come to the aid in a timely manner, should a swift military strike be purpetrated against it in an attempt to force it to "share" some of it's secrets & slow down it's economy.

Our democractic Senate however does have a different perspective & believes that different civ's should be allowed to take different paths to the ultimate goal. Of course, they all must run for re-election frequently & that takes gold &/or being able to point out that their peaceful stance is being rewarded by the sharing of ideas & research from those civ's that are in a position to appreciate our Senate's influence.

President Nice Blondes is anxious to hear back from other world leaders on some the pragmatic suggestions regarding issues of changing the attitudes of mindless civ's that have no human intelligence to meter their aggressiveness.
Also the issue of final performance evalutions. The Viking Special Committee on world ranking feels that in addition to the obvious "winner" of the space race, that perhaps the awarding of points for Demographics (in reverse order=6pts for 1st) coupled with the Civilization Score could determine the final standings. This would then reflect the OVERALL success of a civ's place in the world. While perhaps lowering the possibility of irrational & unrealistic behavior on this world as those far-distant colonists approach the starting of another world.

In another words... make sure "Blondes have more fun!?"

KenThur · October 14, 1999, 00:44

Viking Sentinal (Extra Addition): 2nd copy deleted (it's not THAT Extra!)

[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited October 13, 1999).]

Nappy · October 15, 1999, 01:56

OPEN LETTER TO CHINA..................After reading your posts I thought that it would be appropriate to bring you up to speed on the recent history of the Aztec-Chinese alliance. I assumed control of the Aztec nation in 1480AD with the understanding that the Aztecs and Chinese were at war with the combined armies of Japan,Russia,England and the Vikings.On the 1st turn I realized that there was no Chinese ally and I was left to my fate(not even any diplomatic or moral support). Our only support(diplomatic) came from the Vikings and without Milo's intervention the Aztec empire (and probably the game) would have come to an end. The Vikings have since become one of our most valuable trade partners. Under these circumstances there is no way that we could enter into a military alliance against the Vikings. However, if you read the posts you will see that we have been one of the few countries (along with the English) to protest the landgrab of native Chinese territory over the past 300 years by several countries of the world including your new friends the JTF. We feel that China has been victimized and deserves compensation and foreign aid from the world. The Aztecs have and will continue to support a "strong China policy" as we feel that the power and leadership vacuum that existed in east Asia for the past 300 years was responsible for the landgrab of the past. When the Chinese abandoned us in 1480AD, the Aztecs ended up forfeiting nearly a quarter of their cities and territories including Spain,Italy,Balkans, Asia Minor. southern Caucasus and most of south America.And pay reparations.And partially demobilize. But instead of focusing on what was lost, the Aztecs concentrated on what was still left and have since relocated many of their cities to the vast , formerly untouched northen hinterlands. Similarly, we urge the Chinese to focus their energies on developing their own vast lands to the north- lands that are rich with trade and production potential instead of commiting resources to continuing conflicts over cities that have been disputed over the last 500 years. To that end we will pledge engineering assistance, along with the rest of the world, to help facilitate the migration of population and infrastructure to the north. We also look forward to developing a trading relationship with China and will attempt to trade technology with you in our next session. We welcome the new Chinese leader to the political scene and hope that one day we can place China in a "Most Favored Nation Status" among trading partners.

Pseudo · October 15, 1999, 13:40

Continuing his broadcast from deep inside China, our foreign correspondant gives us an update on the developing situation…

Quote:

The greatest joy, is to conquer one’s enemies, to see their families in tears, to ride their horses and possess their daughters and wives”

This is an excerpt, from who appears to be the new ruler of China, Genghis Khan, in an address to his people. In this same speech, Khan has justified the overthrow and imprisonment of Chiang Kai-shek. Khan accused Kai-shek of giving China away to foreigners. Interestingly enough it was for this reason that Mao was forced to step down a few years ago, and now Kai-shek has fallen victim to it as well.

Genghis has declared himself Proconsul and is awaiting Imperial Senate approval. This is almost assured since it seems as if Khan has replaced many supporters of Kai-shek with senators more favorable to his own whims. The people of China appear to be stunned by the turn of events over the past few days. In countless victories, mirroring his siege of Xi’an, Khan completely wiped out Kai-shek supporters and won over the defending forces of each city with his promises for the future. Those promises are not widely known at the time, nor at the moment is anyone willing to speak about these promises to foreigners. However, since it seems as if Khan has established himself in power, a widely anticipated speech to the Senate seems imminent.

CapTVK · October 16, 1999, 14:05

The New English Times: issue 14

New Defense Policy introduced: more emphasis on air force
The military finally approves the formation of a new military organization, the Royal Air Force (RAF). Making it one of the last nations to institute a national military organization for air warfare. Although the airplane has been around for almost a century, the airforce in the modern sense dates from the middle of the 18th century, when the offensive capabilities of the airplane were first demonstrated by the JTF against Sioux naval vessels. The English airforce saw it's first test against a barbarian stronghold deep in the African
jungle not long after and passed with flying colors. After that succes the formation of the RAF was just a matter of time.
The newly appointed English Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Trenchard argued that future wars will be won by strategic bombing of an enemy's industrial centers and fast airstrikes against enemy units in the field. Other military leaders, including Maj-Gen. L.C Dunsterville and naval commander H.Nelson also urged intensive development of air power.

China keeps brewing
The situation in China remains tense with a possible military coup. After the recent
diplomatic successes this reaction by the military seems peculiar. It appears that some of Chinese top brass seem to think that their leader 'spoiled the fight' and should have asked for more concessions from the Vikings. The military has been very dissappointed about this, including the lack of support by the Aztecs during negotiations. In time the situation may cool down. But it's clear that some of the Chinese forces are akin for a fight no matter what.

England lags behind in productivity
Last year's productivity levels have been disastrous, in shield production the English come just in front of the Sioux who are trailing the bottom. While the English score high in trade and have a high trade surplus this has gone at the expense of our ndustry. "While quaint English villages may make good atmosphere if you're a painter or farmer it just won't do if you can't even be allowed to build a railway line, this situation cannot continue!" was the offical statement by the Minister of Internal
Affairs.

Massive industry investment approved by the senate
After the productivity results where made official a new city policy has been introduced by the famous cityplanner Chris Crawford. "There'll be massive investments in factories, roads, railways and new technology, it will require good planning to get the balance right and we're not playing games here..." he mentioned in his opening speech at the first official meeting of the new planning committee.

Superstar · October 17, 1999, 09:01

THE DEATH OF DIPLOMACY

Well fellas, although I missed the end of the game last night, I am disappointed to say that this game is, for me, ruined.
A Diplomatic game means sorting out your problems through negotiation, or short wars concerning border disputes. Not attempted genocide or the swift removal of several opposing cities.
Even when I have in the past declared war, it was only for small tactical gains, creating a poor diversion in the Aztecia war, and destroying the Chinese navy. There were no attempts for peace on China's part, just sheer ruthlessness and opportunism. I guess it's a lesson when trust breaks down, he was clearly building his armies whilst pretending to 'negotiate'. A factor that the Russians and the Vikings have been predicting for centuries. Too many nations have remained neutral however, and this appeasement and self-preservation have led to one of our greatest and most loyal players having his land ravaged.
I mean nothing personal in this, but the Chinese are totally ignoring the diplomatic nature of the game. Most nations could make similar gains by takeing people unawares in such a fashion, the fact that it is through diplomacy we make our gains prevents us from doing so.
I'm not against war, but I am totally against the destruction of such a large chunk of anybodies empire. There is no way back into the game for Milo now, not because of his poor decisions, but because the betrayal of the nature of the game by the Chinese.

So, it is with great regret that I announce the death of diplomacy, and an all out war must take place, not something I'm particularly looking forward to.

Mao · October 17, 1999, 09:45

Not to be rude by coming in like this, but I must say it's been fun reading all this stuff. (and yes, I have been keeping track) This was nice while it lasted. Think you should start a new thread as the title doesn't fit anymore, but keep me informed of the war. I just wanted to say thanks, it's fun to watch others play and lose/win.

CapTVK · October 17, 1999, 14:27

The New English Times: issue 15 special edition

A newly updated geopolitival worldmap as of 1792AD:

Main Changes
This map speaks for itself, the Vikings have almost been wiped off the map in Southeast
Asia. After signing a treaty some years all parties had hoped for peace in our time, it
didn't. Now we have to face a China that is very agressive,has a strong a military presence in Asia and a strong production basis to further it's own ends. All nations have to find a way to deal with this because this is truly a threat on worldscale.

Note from the editor:
What a session! Too bad I missed the first few turns. I landed in the thick of things with the Chinese marching into SE-Asia and decided to remain neutral until I got my bearings on the Asian/WW2? situation. That's the reason why I decided to stay out of the conflict until now, I rather try to keep a cool head about these things. I would like to point out that this is still a game people, making physical treats against an opponent isn't the best way to make him see reason (if there is any reason at all), try to be civilized...

To Superstars statement that this means the end of diplomacy I say "No, it's only the beginning...". This is 'still' a diplo game people and there are many forms of diplomacy in our happy little world of diplomacy , some polite (what we've been doing for the last few weeks) and not polite(any medium scale conflict and up). What we've been doing mostly in the last few months has been classic 'realpolitik', meaning that we usually think we're dealing with an opponent who wants the same as us. The problems start when you meet an opponent who doesn't think that way, to him a treaty is nothing more but a piece of paper and an empty promise. One historical example would be the peacetreaty Chamberlain signed with Hitler in 1939 'peace in our time'. A more recent example would be the hollow negotiations concerning the autonomy/independence of the Kosovo-Albanians in ex-Yugoslavia.

So what happens when that sort of player enters our happy little 'realpolitik' world? Answer: [*]First, amazement and a complete shock at his sheer audacity: "He can't do that! We signed a treaty last session!"[*]Second, you'll learn a very important lesson about diplomacy. Perhaps the most important one of all: People don't always keep a promise.[*]Third, you deal with it. A powerful opponent with a large army to back him up is threatening the world, what would you do?

All in all I'm enjoying this immensely, a MP diplo game is more than a game, it's an experience!...

[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited October 17, 1999).]