Tales From The (Still) Diplomatic Front II

[Grau Geist]

I find it a tragedy that such an interesting player as we have witnessed these few weeks is forced to quit, just when things were heating up. I agree wholeheartedly with CAP. On top of that for a short time I too felt the thrill of entering into a conflict for the very survival of the Vikings, and my own Asian mainland possesions. I have no doubt that Psuedo would have become a major world player through his ruthless cunning. Is that so wrong for the world or even his neighbors to unite against him in their own defense? Perhaps Super is right that this game is dead, not because China has done so, but because we have done so. We have become cooperating and complacent with each others position.

I am extremely dissapointed that the Viking ruler decided to quit just when things were getting interesting. Likewise, I felt completely helpless when Super also left for his previous engagement, for his sub was disinterested in the whole affair. What did that leave me with, nothing. And to add insult to injury, I could not declare war on the Chinese, because the computer run Vikings sneak attacked the very forces we were organizing to aid the no show Russians and the Vikings themselves get back at least some of their land! What a waste, what a mess, what a tragedy! To Pseudo, I apologize for not being able to bring you the proper fight.

I for one, and it appears CAP as well, am ready to see this game to its conclusion. We will go to the end alone if needs be. I would like to see Nappy, Super and Milo continue as well. If these allegations of the Sioux leader, who shall remain nameless here, are true, I refuse to play with such a person. Psuedo promised to send me a copy of the last turn, where we can continue playing, and also a copy of the chat he had with the Sioux at the end of the game.

That leaves who will play the Chinese? I have given this a lot of thought, if Psuedo insists he is through, then I see it only fitting that Milo take over as the Chinese ruler. What do you say Milo? You wanted to switch to the Chinese a month ago how about now? Everyone who wants to continue, thoughts on this?

[Nappy]

I have been relatively silent since I entered this game in 1480AD but now I feel it is time to speak my peace. I joined this game as a sub only because I was really bored one Sat. afternoon and Milo, who I respect and have played many games with, invited me in as they needed more players to keep the game going.Very interesting situation. Four players, all on the same side. They needed an antagonist. Grau geist asked me on this forum "what happened to the Aztecs- They used to be the #1 civ. If you are not interested anymore, why dont we find a replacement for Nappy". The Aztecs are not #1 anymore because grau Geist was jealous with how well Smartfart was doing and he got an alliance going with the rest of the world to cut him down to size. Well congratulations, you succeeded in cutting down the Aztecs over 25% and reducing them from #1 to #3. I decided to stay with them because I felt a challenge in trying to restore a civ that was in the center of a maelstrom. But I am not married to the Aztec civ or this game. I have only invested a couple of months of Saturdays in this game. I feel sorry for Milo since he has invested many months in this game and was basically knocked out of the game by an uncalled for blitzkreig by Pseudo. I thought that when I joined this game that it was a game of "diplomacy". Nothing could be farther from the truth from my entry to the present. My idea of a diplomatic game is that we refrain from wars of annihilation(unlike the real world) and that there would still be 7 players around at the finish. I was hoping after I joined that by bringing Pseudo and Duce into the game that we would have 7 players but unfortunately it appears that we are back down to five. I resent Pseudos comments on Milo.....he is at work and is trying to balance game playing with dealing with his shop clientele....I know that his situation is a pain in the #$% for us at times but we knew what his situation was going into this. I also resent Pseudos comments on another civ friend of mine Duce. I got kicked out of the game so I dont know all that was said but I do know that Pseudo questioned Duce's intellect and ability and its his own fault if words were exchanged. I also resent Pseudos revisionist history and his placing of words and motives in my mouth. Silence is silence....nothing more , nothing less. I know that this is only a game but I think that it is important for all Civers to know who they can trust and who keeps thir word. Milo I can trust implicitly. Pseudo/Khan/whatever will break his word/treaty/promise before the ink is dry on the paper.When most of the world is focused on reaching AC, how hard would it be for anyone to take over a country that has been roided up on military units by the AI and attack their neighbors for the sole reason that they are "weak" without any regard for the overall geopolitical situation of the world. Yes I admit that I demobilized my military after the TREATY of ROME in 1480AD but I have adhered to and been in compliance with all provisions of that treaty. Instead of complaining about what was confiscated by the remaining four countries of the world, I concentrated on what was left to Aztecs and built an army of engineers to build a new civ. We have outgrown the JTF with less desireable terrain and now jealousy rears its ugly head again. Who cares how many military units I have- there are certainly enough to ward off barbs and fanatics. I could have 60-70 units and still be vulnerable do to my geographic position. Raw numbers of military units do not guarantee safety in this game. Relationships are better and to that end I have spent my entire tenure as the Aztec leader trying to develop trading relations with the Vikings, Russians, Sioux , English and Chinese. Unfortunately relationships seem to last less than 1 turn with Pseudo. I started this game in 1480Ad with less than 1/3 of JTF production and not 1 mine in the entire country. Now we are up to 80% of JTF prod. I feel that I have done the best that I could with the cards I was dealt. Now the JTF has unilaterally declared the TREATY OF ROME null and void and has also declared the Manhattan Project to be illegal. Let us see how THEIR GAME proceeds on the next session.

[Superstar]

Ok, I now believe my statement 'Death of Diplomacy' to be a little rash. Cap has made some intersting points, and I find myself largely in agreement with Nappy.
I will carry on as always, and will make the most of what comes my way, although obviously I have my own preferences as to how this game should be played.
Perhaps we have been complacent in some respects, but if we are to suceed in a diplomacy, then treaties (as Nappy has poitned out) have to be respected, and not broken as soon as forces are strong enough.
My biggest regret is that I had to leave Milo to fight alone, and didn't realise my sub was only going to take one turn.
I have the upmost respect for most of the players, and in a way I admire Pseudo's audacity, yet feel perhaps the blitzkreig went too far. Also some of the personal insults are way out of line, and although I'd like Pseudo to carry on, I feel a few apologese are needed, not to myself but to those he has insulted.
I am not up to speed on events after I left, having only scraps of information from this post and a few ICQ messages. I don't know what has happened with Il Duce, nor do I know the full extent of China's attack (if there was one) on Aztecia. I'd appreciate an updated save of the game if someone can post it me at matt_cornish@lineone.net

Now we must find a way forward, I suggest we meet an hour earlier next Saturday and hold a world summit crisis talk, with various issues decided by majority decision. We each have our opinions, but I'm sure we can sort out a compromise.
Gentlemen, we are all adults, and although emotions were running high we can find soloutions to world affiars, and perhaps each of us needs to look at where our individual nations are heading.
I don't believe that the Japanese have won yet, I for one will make every effort to catch them, in a fair and diplomatic nature. I also feel that Nappy's concentration on building his infrastructure (and Hoovers Damn) have left him in a strong position for the finishing post also.
I also support the Project Manhattan Sabotage, imagine if this second world war had nukes in. Nasty!
If Milo will return, I personally will give as much foreign aid as I can without weakening my own position too much.
I apologise again for my absence, but I genuinely thought I had cover. Besides, I'm sure you'll all agree that personal lives come first, and at least I got some loving out of the evening

[Pseudo]

No I have not gotten my jollies off, and I should not be very surprised by the number of childish people who inhabit this make believe world. However, when someone threatens your life as (whoever was playing the Sioux) did, this takes childishness to an extreme level. I would be censored here if I tried to quote how extremely displeased this interloper was at my attempts to bring a lowly civ into a place of power.

I did not realize that a Diplomatic game meant that no one could do anything to challenge the status quo! The Japanese are the most expansive and advanced civ. However, no one seems to be willing to rock the boat. When the Aztecs were #1 and climbing out of control, there was an Alliance that conived to put it down, and that they did. So when I created my character, as Grau suggested would help any future diplomatic game develop, I put myself into the role. What would a number last civ with smaller population and even smaller really usable land do? (come on we all know how long it takes to build up a city off of forests)

I have an advanced civ to my east that is totally barren in its defenses. I wait two sessions after hints and even outright discussions have been held on its defenselessness, but no effort is made by this civ to strengthen its defenses. Diplomatic game or not, this is ridiculous. Ah, but he is good at diplomacy I find, for instead of my idea to seize some border cities in order to advance the Chinese, Including the completely empty city with SETI and HOOVER'S DAMN in it (I mean how stupid is that and tempting!), he supports me in my war against the Japanese and the Vikings, who also have territory to grow into. Of these, I am in a difficult situation with the Japanese, for I have their airport and transport, so knowing the history the Chinese have with the Vikings, plus the SUPPORT of English and Aztecs, and Sioux, either with moral support or military, the strike is on against the Vikings. Now last session I tried the quick strike, take a city and let the diplomacy settle the situation. What did this get the Chinese? settling for aloss of good building money for a city that had been ravaged by attack and counterattack. There was no opportunity for the Chinese to rise out of its mediocrity to take a greater place in the world during this conflict.

Move forward a decade, add in a completly henious sneak attack (which was supported (even if by silence) secretly by Aztecs, English and Sioux. Now I should have been dealt with for my attack, yes I held the upperhand after two turns I fortified my position after a blizkrieg through his "g-ddamn rails I built". If you notice the startup screen, the Chinese now have 21 cities, instead of 12 when I came in. Some were built by me, some were bought (using diplomacy and military might to some extent)
(You have to admit Super that you gave up that city for money, because you knew somewhere in your mind, militarily you would not have been able to keep it. You were right, but you came away smelling sweetly from the deal, exclusive rights to more land, even though demographics currently shows you are second with 1 million acres of land, and plenty of money.) And the others were taken through unchallenged military force. Where was my challenge? No diplomacy was attempted to convince me to give anything back? No one talked to me in a reasonable manner to demand a ceasefire or peace negotiations where I would give up something in return for peace. Rather the Vikings just made threats and comments that only served to anger me and egg me on to complete a destruction of his civ, simply to shut up his ignorant threats. (which I had no intention of doing) To the Vikings I ask why, when you do not get your way, you bow out. This happened numerous times in the short time that I have been involved in this game. I would not be surprised if everyone in the game was just as annoyed by your behavior as I was. You constantly complained how you "didn't have enough time".. "I'm quiting if we don't restart" "bye"... 30 minutes later after exhausted attempts by players in the game to get you to get back in, especially by giving into WHATEVER YOU want, we continue. Where do you think you are? This is not a single player game where you need to save before each single units move just in case you make a mistake, if you make a mistake, deal with it and move on. Stop forcing 5-6 other people to sit around twiddling their thumbs.

But I digress. Now if you had been a good player, you would have stuck by your allies trying to help you, begged the world for judgement against me, made negotiations, and in my judgement, would have walked away minus two cities that used to be chinese anyway! So maybe this would have put you down to #6 out of seven and boosted me to #5. If you truly believed in the Diplomatic game, you would know that even as #6 you have a role, as I have proven by making this world revolve around me for two sessions. And in this role you have the "democratic" choice of maintaining the Status Quo or getting off your as- and doing something about it.

So there it is, I was #6, I took a weakened, eaten by foreigners, stupid, and poor civ, and made it more important to the world. Now the JTF wants to trade with my cities, because they yeild a profit for those who do, The Aztecs asked to buy a tech from me, and when you had given up, your alliance gave up, and did nothing. How sad and pathetic. I rise up from the cellar, sit down at the international table, eat all of the food I want, no one dares to put me back down into my #6th place or stop me from eating what I want. But, when it is all said and done it is only outside the game environment that anyone has a clue on what to do to this guy who dares to enter a game and has the gall to try to challege the status quo. If this is your idea of a diplomatic game, I want no part of it.

By the way, for those of you gone and did not see me cross the line, after I fortified my position against a counterattack that never came. I began look to other horizons. We restarted ..again.. and I still noticed that in the time given, the Aztecs still had half of thier cities undefended. Despite his insistance that, after 5000 years of game play and numerous rulers, I was his ally, I heartly disagreed. I was never helped by the Aztecs in anyway. When I was just starting, there was no gift of tech for a signed alliance. So what allegiance do I have to the Aztecs, none. So since I have been unchallenged in the South or east, I make a powerplay in the west and use a feature the game designer probably put in the MP version for a reason, imagine that?! I threatened to attack the Aztecs with my idle military if he did not give me one city. Apparently he informs the english and his crony the Sioux, (who I'm not sure he even exists as a real person since he never said a word in the game nor in any posts here until this incident.) of my ploy. The sioux leader, completly thrashes my character, threatens my life, vowing to take a flight to my home and pummel some manners into me. Why exactly? Okay, I am angered by him and stupidly egg him on with my rebutle claiming his ignorance. But what do you say to someone who asks and I loosely quote "just who the hel- are you to threaten Nappy?" "He is a good player" "Killing the Vikings was one thing because he was a whinner, but this" and so on and so on. The funny thing about it is... Nappy had been kicked out of the game play, and at the same time I am receiving this bashing for my faux paux, Nappy is smartly realizing his defenseless situation and wants to make a deal with me. He offers a city and land for me to build on. This has been one of the most intelligent plays I have seen in this game. Now I bet he secretly thought that once he appeased me, he could build up his defenses and take back what he lost from my arogance and aggressiveness. To that I say hurrah! Runaway and live to fight another day, ie return with greater numbers and strength. Vikings you could learn a lot from this man, he and the Russians surely have this game licked. They know how to deal with a character such as Khan. If I had continued I would then have tried to demand some territory from the ever expansive Japanese. Who with 1.5 million of space would have some to spare. I would have been very disappointed if Grau, after the attack I planned had not put up the good fight, given up the minimum because he is spread so thin, then hit me with his might from his footings on the island of Japanese and with the carrier battle group he talks so fondly of. In retrospect, had I known the character of the Vikings I never would have tried anything with someone like that. But given the placement of the Chinese, wedged between the # 1 and # 2 civs, and # 5. As # 6 do you think I would have a chance against #2 without the added strength and believability of my threat through my dealing with #5. Likewise, could I cut down #1 a bit, without further adding strength to my stature by cutting down #2? The answer is no. Just look at how hard it was for #5 Vikings to realize I could give him a bloody nose. Wouldn't Nappy and Grau have thought it even less likely I could challenge them? measly number 6 challenge #1 and #2. I don't think so, not in this particular game at least. If anyone else in the game would have been willing to challenge the status quo, then the answer would be yes, however.

Ultimatly the Chinese expanse had to come at the cost of someone else. With a like sized population, but three times the demographic land area you have to give. And yes, his defense is that a good amount of his 900,000 land territory (#3 I might add)is desert, an equal amount of my 360,000 was forest, only slightly better. But if you even glance at the Viking city placements, they are poorly placed. You should be able to crame more cities into the space provided. Sure they will have to overlap, but by the time you get one city big enough to use all of the land provided in its radius, a couple smaller cities would have been utilizing wasted land for thousands of years it takes to get to a full city size. This is why your civ was destined to fail. And I realize it is very hard to give up anything when you have so little in the first place.

So you must understand that even though I find the person playing the Vikings annoying, I know that it is simply because he lacks the patience for the terrible hand that he was dealt. I really don't know if I would have been able to handle a situation like that differently, I hope that I would, but you never really know what your limits are until they are exceeded. I envy him for now he knows. And its not just about a game, even in the games we play our character, what type of strengths and weaknesses we have are present. And in them we realize who we are. Hopefully some of you realize this, though most will not.

I hope many of you will understand and some probably rejoice that this will be my last post and my last MP game. I do not wish to spend the small quantity of leisure time that I do have, arguing and justifing my thoughts and existence. I do enough of that at work. And I really don't need to have some punk kid threaten my life, I get that enough everyday as well. For those now curious, I'm a defense attorney.

My departing wish is that this game not die, just because I disturbed the status quo. I too have read all of these posts, followed the story lines as you would a good novel. To not be able to read the ending would be a tragedy, a waste. I'm proud to say that I am sure you will find someone willing to take over the legacy I left. The cities are in good order, many useful improvements have been built, the infrastructure is sound, the people happy, the military is strong the treasury is full, and about to grow, and the technology sector is near the top.

Sincerely and with any apologies necessary, Tao Jing aka Psuedo

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Pseudo (edited October 17, 1999).]</font>

[Grau Geist]

Wheh! I never knew that a stupid game could become so personal! I resent that anyone would think I have ever been jealous of anyone, especially over this game. I am playing a game, not plotting someone’s downfall, to say otherwise is ridiculous. In this game the Aztecs were number 1; this is true. In this game I conspired with others to cut down the Aztecs growth as they pulled away from the pack. My allies gained territory and favor with me, and I gained a weaker opponent and in the end #1 position (which I have been wanting to shake since day one ). Those sessions were fun and exciting; SF did not take it personal, because there was nothing-personal going on. I hope that you mentioning this does not mean that you are jealous of my position, if you are then have it, I really don’t care one way or another as long as this remains just a game. I applaud you for gaining 80% of my production, as I have always applauded your ability, especially in winning the race for Hoover’s and SETI. That was excellent game play. And yes Russia and I tried to stop you from getting SETI, that is NOT something we took personal. I interpret your idea of me as being someone who started chatting with Matt saying “lets get that damn Nappy, he is going to have everything its not fair, blah blah blah” It just makes good game sense to try to keep it from you, that is all. As for “unilaterally” declaring the Treaty of Rome null and void. Nothing bothers me more than someone twisting words to fit his or her own designs. I simply wanted to make sure that you were not remaining defenseless because you might think it a part of a treaty 1000 years old. I wanted you to know that you had met and exceeded your part of the treaty, and that you had been long free of the treaty prohibiting you from having: a big military, warships, etc. No more, no less. Ask anyone, we were all wondering about your lack of units, we just didn't know if you were playing the game or watching football? Obviously you have made it extremely clear you were playing the game and you intended to have few units.

As for Pseudo, in the end his simple and well-intentioned interpretation of the game just might end it all it seems. I know one thing, he was not interested in annihilating anyone. Who is to say what is the right and wrong way to play this game? Out of everyone in this game I have by far played the most sessions, I missed only two since the beginning. I was even involved in the original discussion on a diplomatic game with JB and the rest, (Nappy, Ken you were there) but even with the most play experience with this “diplomatic game” theory, I dare not define the absolutes of what makes a diplomatic game. I am surprised many think they can. I do know that I would have welcomed the attack, not taken it personally and enjoyed the challenge of taking back what had been mine through talk or force. Who is to say that Nappy or Matt or me are the only ones who should really have a chance in the final race? If no one dared to do anything different in this game I would probably reach Alpha Centauri first, whoopee do. I don’t say this with pompous confidence, because, hey Nappy might also get there first. But what about the rest of you? Have you all accepted your fate?

I also do not like this idea, that everyone should respect Milo, or even me, by not playing all aspects of the game, just because he has been a devoted and decent player. It is Ken’s choice to play at his work, and he deals with it well. The basic theory behind the diplomatic game was to involve as many human players as possible and assure that Every Single one of them was around for the end. It did not dictate that borders, once established, would not/could not change, or if they did that the person who affected the change was always some evil person who wanted nothing more than to ruin the lives of everyone else involved. We all take this too seriously, think about it, really think about it, and tell me I am wrong. I know, because sometimes I find myself wasting too much time being bothered by this, a game.

Finally, since I have spent too much time defending myself already, I am going to try to make this last part brief. I have read the final chat between the Sioux and Chinese. I’m simply appalled, summary:

Sioux player tells Chinese player how dare he ruin the game. Sioux claims attacking the Vikings were one thing because he whined, but Aztecs are off limits, etc. Sioux and Chinese BOTH exchange mild insults about intelligence, being computer nerds, and physical appearances and abilities (etc.), these insults increase, violence is threaten by Sioux 1-2 times (something about beating manners into him!). 1 apology is somewhat attempted by Chinese. Chinese bring to light that Aztecs are willing to talk over their threat. Sioux continue insults, threaten violence again (taking a flight to Chinese players home to again beat him). And connection is broken. I’d say some tempers flared over a silly game.

My wife is taking a “learning about the Internet class”, she pointed out to me the other day that the class warns that you need to be especially careful about what you say on screen. It is far easier to piss people off and get pissed, when you don’t see a person behind the words. Oh and something about there will always be a record of what you say, so watch what you say. I guess this proves that point.

[Superstar]

Ok, I just got a copy of the chat with Kings from Cap, (thanks by the way Cap).
I can't believe people are talking to each other like this in what is supposed to be a civilised, intelligent game. Please, be men enough to make your apologese and move on.
As regards to GG's comments, I think he makes alot of sense (not all of it mind ), I just hope that none of you are/remain too disillusioned to carry on.
There can be no room for ill feeling, insults and threats in this game, except those taken in the context of the game.
Perhaps it's time to take our lot and proceed with the game as it stands, and put away childish things. As far as I'm concerned I'll carry on but I hope we can see the landing on AC with every nation still intact.
I don't think you should feel bad about being no.1 GG, I know if it was me (and probably anyone else) I'd love it, and so I continue to improve my infrastructure and trade routes to accomplish this. I hold no jealousy of the fact, and feel you deserve my respect because of the way you play (and what I have learnt from you) whether you want it or not. Besides, you're not THAT far ahead anyway.
The aim of the game is to win, but I would like to see everyone there at the end, with the majority of us making some attempt at a space ship. Ok, I don't know the exact way the game should be played, but personally I try to play with my own sense of diplomacy, which generally includes trade deals, military pacts, and the odd machivellian plan.
There have been some eye openers latetly, and we have woken up to our complacency. Personally I still feel I have alot to learn, and although I may have certain opinions, I believe I'm open to any argument and discussion.
So, who's still in, and can we carry on in a civilised manner?
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Superstar (edited October 18, 1999).]</font>

[KenThur]

The Viking Lampoon Flash Edition:

L-O-L!! Holy-smoly!!! This isa hottsa stuffa!?

I love it / I hate it. We all sound & act like a bunch jocks emptying the benches because some players threw some low blows!

Only time (& desire) for quick points:
>> this game WILL go on; it has to, the Civ world is watching.

>> i apologize; somewhat, for my @#%*$ remarks during heat of being blind-sided.

>> i cannot apologize for not rejoining; the alternate reality of real life HAS TO take precedence & just trying to keep up as little as i did, probably cost me a sale or 2 (how inclined would U be to ask questions or step up to buy something at the counter of a very nice, upscale boutique that was manned by some guy madly typing away on his laptop while the computer's making all these sounds of "CHARGE!", explosions, da-da-da-ta!,"FIRE!"?)

>> Tao; don't flatter yourself too much, even with the advantage of almost total surprise, U wouldn't have EVER gotten the 1st wave of cities' completely intact had i been able to give my full attention to the game... it only takes an instant to sell improvements;

>> Tao; don't flatter yourself too much, even with the advantage of almost total surprise, U wouldn't have EVER destroyed remote units supported by the cities U took had i been able to give my full attention to the game... it only takes an instant to reassign them or complete trade routes at the nearest city;

>> Tao; don't flatter yourself too much, even with the advantage of almost total surprise, U wouldn't have EVER gotten the last 2 cities & probably not the 1 before that, had i been able to give my full attention to the game... it only takes a few piss-ant unit to pillage the the RR & your howies, armor, & spies would have been slowed enuf for a defense/counterattack to be mounted;

>> Tao; your comments about my city placements shows a lack of thot & experience in this sort of game... the cities are a collection of old Chin AI & prior human rulers choices, a hut that was an “Advanced tribe”, & placing new cities where they would get maximum ECONOMIC benefits within AGREED UPON boundaries. So please think it thru, these cities were not selected based on playing a predicable AI or an MP game of bloodlust.

>> Tao; despite what we now know is your day-job & realizing U are trained to be adversarial, regardless of what is just or fair... it's about win or lose, no compromise, no 2nd place, don't-care-what-others-think; if U were going to do something DIFFERENT for recreation, why didn't U choose to be the character of Confucius or the late Ming dynasty instead of Genghis Khan?

>> ALL MP players, present & future; AI ruled civ's MUST have their attitudes adjusted before EACH session... the mindless Sioux sneak attacked & killed a key rifleman that was in the hills astride the RR that would have saved at least 1 city! Not to mention the AI Vikings totally unexplained attack on the Japs.

>> Milo/KenThur; cannot play this game while on shop duty... it is not fair to the other players, my wife & her customers, & the Viking civ to have a half-assed, constantly-interrupted performance... all my constituencies deserve better. So until the shop can support PAID help (not too far distant) or I can trade days with her(fat chance), i must abstain from the contest (i am searching for a good sub). I wish it were not so.

>> Il Duce; your comments & aggressive attitude continue to be ill-considered & mostly inappropriate. If U want to run with the big dogs, then please upgrade your system & approach so U can communicate via ICQ like a mature adult.

>> Where do we go from here? I’m with several (all?) of U in the desire for a good modern period world war. Part of real history & part of diplomacy is working together as allies in war to overcome an evil empire. My initial thot is to go back to at least before the AI Vikings attacked their allies the Japs & reset their attitude + that would roll back far enuf for Super’s Russian civ to have correctly managed mobilization. This wouldn’t rectify the “unearned” spoils of war that the Chin’s gained in the blitzkrieg against the perfect enemy... a civ unmanaged, even by the AI. However, it does have a parallel in history, as i wrote in 1 of my earlier ICQ or chats... it’s alot like the Benelux countries or the Philippines & SE Asia in WWII, the initial surprise attacks gained many cities & the transportation systems intact, while cutting off the supply & support of remote units.

>> So the challenge is, oh would-be great leaders of this world; can the “Good Guys” band together & rally their strength to overcome the initial successes of the mad man of Chin??!! Sure it will set back the time schedule of going to other planets... but so to did WWII. I haven’t expressed this before, but it was a thot i had during earlier discussions of what to do about aggressive civ’s; follow the historical model... smash them if necessary to quell the threat, but then give back (what is left of) their cities, minus an appropriate “buffer” ala Russia’s east European strategy.

>> Valiant Allies; all is not lost, there is no way the Chin’s & Genghis can go any further, save perhaps 1 more city,”Bangkok”. They have no navy to expand beyond land mass, not unlike Hitler. Gather our forces, build the appropriate units & funds... then shove it all right back where it came from!!

>> Oh Great Negotiator / Manager of the Aztecs, Nappy; thank U for your words of confirmation. Now watch your eastern front. U are not unlike the USSR after the Nazi’s overran what they could in 1 direction, then turned on their former ally & big, undefended neighbor. U & the other leading powers may have to be uneasy, but necessary teammates until the world is safe again. &#61514;

>> CapTVK; U play the English SO WELL... always working the angles & making sure U know which way the wind is blowing before acting (or not acting). U mite make an excellent ally for...? Or just do like Latin America did in the Big One... nothing.

>> Last word for Tao/Pseudo; come on back if U dare / can handle the challenge U started. The personal attacks on U by me should be well-taken. The apparently more personal/vicious ones after i had to drop were not from a regular, but he is a good player & like many us incarnate competitors, quick-to-the-mouth. He mite even be your best ally... the Japs & Germ’s weren’t particularly fond of each other... but they both want to rule the world & needed each other to do it. Now THAT’s diplomacy if U 2 can hook up! And why not, both your civ’s have sneak attacked & try to take Viking territory for centuries? Show there can be “Honor among thieves”.

>> The initial shock of the world’s civilized nations & the accompanying recriminations are behind us; now we all have to get down to the dirty business of killing for peace! Most of us don’t like lawyers or despots... but they’re in our worlds & we gotta deal with them. &#61516;

[MyOlde]

Pardon me for butting in but...

I don't play MP but for months now I've enjoyed reading your weekly updates. They're tremendously creative and you've all put a lot of work and thought into the game itself and into your weekly updates.

You've also, I believe, created a marvellous electronic transworld camaraderie. It's to be envied.

I for one think it would be a shame if you are unable to carry on with your game. As someone who has no say in what you do, I nevertheless would encourage you to see if you can't resolve your differences and keep going.

Very sincerely,

MyOlde

[Grau Geist]

So With all of that said and done, Do we need a replacement? for Pseudo? for Milo?
Ken would a different day/time be better for you? For everyone? availability everyone?

[Seeker]

This is like the Days of Our Lives for Civ...please don t let it end like this guys, to have what could have been the greatest Civ game ever degenerate into mindless drivel.
You have the opportunity to get to Alpha Centauri with signifigant human oppostion. The Civ community expects semi-fanatical dedication!

[Nappy]

The Aztecs request an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council on Sat. 10/24 at 5pm GMT to discuss the "China Problem"

[Superstar]

I concur, the Russians will gladly attend the meeting.

P.S.
Thanks for the support from the various people outside the game who have posted here. It's nice to know people are interested in this game.

[CapTVK]

Although the English have no direct interest in the Asian region we will also attend this meeting. The English diplomats may not be able to attend the full meeting but we will return as quickly as our national(personal) obligations allow.


To all 'TFTDF'readers:
Sometimes I wondered that the only ones who read these posts where the players and maybe some aspiring subs who happened to browse this thread. I'm Glad that there seems to be a 'silent majority' of diplo-game fans who regularly read our posts, it makes me more determined to finish this game.

Thanks for your support gentlemen...

[Sten Sture]

I think everyone reads them! We await your next post eagerly...

[Grau Geist]

sorry guys I won't be able to attend our regular session Saturday, not to mention the debate. However, my concern is to keep players in the game, during discussion perhaps you could agree on more times to get together to play during the week or sunday perhaps. Maybe even avoiding Saturday when we usually play so that Milo can devote the needed attention to the game.

As for my votes; I'm for continuing, but where we left off, not going back and replaying which means wasting time already spent. I'm for Milo taking over Chinese, since Vikings pretty decimated, If he will accept. Talked to Pseudo, he is done, fin, out, better things to do, etc. you get the picture. If not MILO then halting play until we do get someone to at least take over Chinese, perhaps Sioux, perhaps even Vikings (fat chance)

As for times avail, I'm good on Sundays for a short while, could be avail on weeknights say 4pm Central and on. My Sked is going to be pretty erratic, set for one or two weeks then changing for the next week or two, etc.

Whatever happens let me know. I had the last minute opportunity to travel to see my sister and family I have not seen for two years. So hope you all understand its more important now than ya'lls ugly mugs. See ya, good luck figuring this stuff out

[KenThur]

L-O-L = U Civ'rs are a bunch of crazies!! Don't U have anything better to do than read this stuff??!! Maybe we should start a tabloid to put in the checkout lane racks next to the "Inquirer" & as some1 said, the "Soaps"

I'll be there for "UN" discussion. It's @ noon Eastern US time(GMT 17:00)?
I'm still inclined to hang tough w/ the Vikings... sort an emotional attachment at this point. Besides, just like Britain at the start of WWII, my island nation's economic base is still intact & stronger than most folks seem to know... the wonders of Democracy & trade.

I feel stronger & stronger about this bad attitudes of AI civ's thing. This sort of contest is tough enuf just working things out w/ the humans involoved. Then the mindless AI comes in & if their attitude hasn't been (re)set, they jump into situations & on to other civ's like it's just another solo game. They have to follow their programming & attack others based on attitudes, natural traits, & who's the strongest civ at that point in the game. Hence, the Sioux attacked the Vikings after denying our emissary several times... because they ended the prior session "enraged" at the Vikings. Then the Viking AI attacks longtime friend, NEVER an enemy, the Japs... because they are the current #1 powergraph civ.
I know it's 1 more administative item that adds "work" to the game, but a diplomatic game = working hard to work with or at least compromise with other civ's. Then to have these relationships go out the door just because a human is not present to run a civ = an even bigger waste of time + is TOTALLY unrealistic.
There is/will never be a way to prevent internal government changes from occuring under AI rule, but we CAN do something about the external attitude/affairs of an AI civ. I think it is imperative that civ's which are going AI need to have some1 go into them & set attitudes toward toher civ's according to their true relationship.
>>> note: my apologies to the JTF & it's comrade ruler for not getting / taking the time to check the Vikings' attitude before dropping. Shows that all players should monitor their attitudes on a fairly regular basis... IT IS VERY important & a MAJOR factor in a close, hard-fought, hard-negotiated MP game.

Because of the above, & despite it setting things back again, i still vote for going back to year that the "Vikings" attacked their long time friends. So that does not happen. I mean, that's like the French attacking the British Expeditionary force while it's in the Low Countries to help save them from the overunning Nazi's!
============================================

To potential / interested subs:
Jump on in & play a part in this "game of the Century".
It's not about just "winning" wars or smashing rival civ's... it's about working to do the best/most with what U have. If U don't have the biggest/strongest civ, that's ok because it's the alliances & "teams" that prevail. All the players on the team get to wear the World Championship rings, not just the biggest or strongest.
And this current conflict doesn't have to end in total destruction of any particular civ... altho, that may be the only solution.
==========================================
As for play times:
I'm all for Sundays, anytime day or nite. In fact i'd be willing to get up in early morning hours (like i am now, 04:00)if that will help U guys in Europe.

I'm also good for week nite evenings as early as 20:00 EDT... but i know that's tough on the European leaders. But perhaps a Friday nite/morning could be done(since U'll don't have to go to work the next day)?
===========================================

"Last chance this century" so true... kinda amazing that we're almost there. So let's roll on & finish this odessey before Y2K bugs screw up the whole system!!

Nice Blonde/Milo Vikings forever!!

[CapTVK]

The New English Times: issue 16 special edition

Sioux team up Chinese: England declares WAR!
The masterplan of the mysterious leader only known as 'AI' is finally revealed: 'total world domination'. Backed up by Sioux the Chinese can finally concentrate their effort on removing the last vestiges of JTF presence in Japan. Meanwhile Chinese researchers have beaten all nations in the construction of the Apollo project, which means that the Chinese now also have the ability to launch long range missiles. Rumors have it that the Chinese are now focussing their attention on a new superweapon based on nuclear fission.

The ministry of defense has called for total mobilization, all men of fighting age must enlist immediately at their local government office. The goverment has issued a decree that all of the English production must be concentrated on the war effort.

Viking leadership in total shock!
The Viking nation(Milo) has finally managed to make a statement about the Chinese plans:

holy shitz! what an ending that would be... the AI wins!! :-((

We apologize if any readers are shocked by the rude language but the news is coming in too fast for editing


More news to follow...

[KenThur]

VIKING SENTINEL 1805 Edition
(yes we’re still publishing, from our underground wartime location)

HEADLINES: The Big Diplo II world rocks on!
Nothing like adversity brings out the best in humans & the worst in AI.

================================================== ===========
INTERNATIONAL SECTION:

After the Pseudo-led Chinese’ massive & unprovoked blitzkrieg on our fair nation at the turn of (what was to be) the century of peace & prosperity; our great leaders were forced into exile in order to deal with the more important... invasion of the Customer Aliens.
So as NOT to be labeled a hypocrite our human leadership, President Nice Blonde, came back to the halls of power long enuf to give explicit instructions to the State, Defense, & Treasury Officials to:

1> change our “Enraged” attitudes that the interim AI government had taken toward or friends & allies, to much more appropriate & realistic, “Worshipful” & “Enthusiastic”.
2> Make peace & ally with the most enlighten President Nappyzuma of the Aztecs & the most excellent interim Japanese leader, Comrade William Wallace.
3> Share entire maps with these newly allied partners against world aggression & our stalwart fellow republican & best friend, Consul Super of the Russians; in order for them to more effectively fight the Chin’s along with, sadly, our former friend & ally the Sioux. The Chin’s new puppet & fellow non-human-led ally.
4> Then lastly; we poured the coffers of gold the mindless AI government had amassed (how do they do that!? Guess they don’t have to pay the leaders, huh?) during our leader’s self-imposed exile (necessitated by BOTH invasions) into the treasuries of our allies.
================================================== ===========
BUSINESS SECTION:

An interesting learning from the Customer Aliens. Tho disruptive, this “invasion” was of the good kind. What is interesting, they seem to prefer paying for wares they desire with pieces of plastic & something called “cash”, rather than our world’s gold. Strange creatures. These plastic cards are an technological advance on our gold... they tell me that even tho god-Wife gets her balances increased, the aliens do not have to ACTUALLY pay for these items they have purchased, until much later!!?? Hm-m-m, perhaps the Chin AI would accept these in payment for the tech advances they have so rapidly accumulated? How do U say “Do take American Express?” in Chinese?

================================================== ===========
EDITORIAL SECTION:

The Viking & international press corp seem intent on referring to our leader as “Milo”. It seems they are not buying the “Nice Blonde” persona. Furthermore it has come to our attention that in this tumultuous times, mis-conceptions & mis-communications have occurred among new leaders & our readers due to this change. So it is our duty (pleasure?) to inform the Viking citizenry & the world audience that in an EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW at the Vikings World War remote headquarters we got the “straight” story...

“Nice Blondes” has actually been “Milo” in drag!! The much higher pitch in his voice was due to his emasculation after the infamous “DAMN Incident”. The persona was selected to reflect a kinder, gentler leadership in the Vikings new, permanent-supporting role.

However, it has become apparent that blondes DO NOT have more fun & in these violent times thrust upon us by our seemingly forever-aggressive neighboring civ’s... the Vikings need a LEADER WITH BALLS!!! So thru the miracle of modern 19th century medicine, Milo Mindbender has been restored to full manhood! And is he pissed!
Hear-here!! He’s big, he’s bad, & he’s back!!

He & the Vikings are ready, willing & able to pick up where we left off during counter-offensive breakout from the SE Asian peninsula. Tonite, Sunday@1700 EDT / 2200 GMT(?) to move the world war & ensuing space race into high gear.

[CapTVK]

The New English Times: issue 16 special edition

A new wartorn geopolitical worldmap as of 1808AD:



Main Changes
Heavy fighting in SE and Central Asia, the map changes came in faster then our cartographers could update at some moments!

The English have been finally drawn into the conflict after the Sioux declared war on the English and the JTF. This was perhaps the greatest mistake of the AI as the Sioux soldiers are known as the worst infantry in the entire world plus the even bigger mistake of taking on two enemies who can outproduce the Sioux by 300% per turn. English and JTF forces had no problem whatsoever stopping the foolish Sioux assault which ended with Basra (Iran) being captured by JTF forces. After that Basra was given to English to act as a coordination point for our Central Asia campaign. We quickly pushed through Sioux defenses and sliced the Sioux nation in half. Our assault was finally stopped in the small town of Raging Brook(Afghanistan) by a Chinese counteroffensive with an armored division. Our primary objectives have been reached however. English forces have now acquired a foothold in Central Asia that can act as a jumping point into China.
Meanwhile the Aztec nation has finally started to mobilize against the Chinese. Their first success has been the capture of the city of Lanzhou(Novisibirsk?) and they are preparing for a true invasion of China proper.

In the pacific theater the JTF in Japan are getting hammered by Chinese bombardments and
paratroopers. Until know they've bravely hold out, but for how long? Because the JTF forces there have been completely cut off from reinforcements.
The Vikings and Russians have been very quiet lately, apparently they've been slowly building up their forces to open a second front in SE-Asia.

[MyOlde]

To the Prime Minister of England,

Cap, would it be possible to append colour-identifiers to your marvellous maps? I get confused as to who is whom in this wonderful ongoing saga. Perhaps this would help other non-player-but-intensely-interested-readers to follow along as well as me. There seems to be quite a crowd of us.

Thanks.

[Superstar]

110 posts, time for a new thread, this is taking forever to download.

[CapTVK]

It isn't very difficult to guess which nation is 'which' as I try to make references to actual locations or countries (the English are orange one in Africa if you didn't guess it already). The story is the same for the rest of the nations involved. Follow the news and a little guesswork will do the rest...

But still, the map can be confusing for newcomers. So from now on I'll also include a link with the colour codes at:
nation-index

[Nappy]

Our last session started off with a historic UN Security Council meeting attended by Russia, England, Vikings, And Aztecs to discuss the "China Problem". We discussed our various options regarding China including appeasement, containment, negotiation and all out war to restore the status quo in Asia prior to the wrath of Khan. We decided by unanimous vote for an all-out military option to throw the Chinese back from whence they came. UN Resolution 347 directed us to begin offensive action against the outlaw Chinese government at our earliet opportunity. After a couple of turns to complete mobilization, the Aztecs declared war on China and captured the strategic Chinese city of Lanzhou(size 12) cutting off two northern Chinese cities in the process. Unfotunately the Aztec Senate didnt see things my way and the Aztec government collapsed. In addition, the Sioux allied with China as predicted by several countries and declared war on the Aztecs to open a two front war. The Aztecs sent a mobile spearhead south to capture Samarkand from the Sioux to secure their southern flank and link up with the English who were driving eastward from the Middle East. Two turns of ineffectual Chinese counterattacks on Lanzhou were followed by the arrival of China Army Group West..a massive formation of armor, moterized infantry, howitzers and marines. China Army Group West was then annhilated by Aztec military and Spy units and the Aztecs even now are digging in to try to repusle the next inevitable Chinese assault. The Chinese Air Force has resorted to a campaign of terror bombing civilians as they knocked out two of our Engineer units last turn. The Aztecs are rushing newly built fighters into the battle and the first units should be coming off the assembly lines next turn. After Japan spent most of the session massing forces off of Chinas Pacific coast we look forward to the opening of a new front in China by our Russian, Viking and Japanese allies . Kudos again to Cap of the English for his assistance in helping us restore our government. And for now the war continues to rage on............

[KenThur]

FLASH!! YELLOW ALERT! DIPLOMATIC WIRE!!

Gentlemen, i just got the bad news from Russian Consul Super re: his inability to make Sat sessions today & for several weeks(?!). Let me add to that news, that it is shaping up for me to be out of town next Sat also.

W/o him & with me only able to give it 50% effort on most of Sat's playing time... this has / will become a meaningless contest.

We HAVE TO reschedule for another regular playing time. Why not Sundays? =no work, no dates, & any jock-sports on TV can be video taped or watched during others' long turns!? Besides how much effort/time/thinking is required to watch TV?
ANY time Sun=ok by me. That means from 0900 GMT to 0500 Monday GMT.

I know this is a disruption but if, after ALL these weeks & effort, we let this great contest simply fall into the hands of mindless AI or ruthless subs with no sense of this planet's history & relationships then it goes for naught.

At the very least, me MUST have a level-headed, good TEAM player to take the Russians for the next several sessions... if not for the remainder of the game.

Like all of U &, it seems, many other true Civ'ers out here; we MUST FINISH THIS EPIC ADVENTURE... but if the final chapters are played out by bits & pieces & AI's that can't even post a report here for all of Civ'dom to read & become a part of the historical lore, then all before this becomes just another waste of time & unfinished game of Civ.

Leaders & readers of this... please post asap re: thots & availabilty for Sun session &/or as a quality DIPLOMATIC player to finish out this epic.
We currently have openings for the #3 & 4 civ's, the Russians & Chinese respectively. The Chinese are allied with the Sioux & the Russians are allied with the Vikings in the war in Asia.

If U think you're pretty good with negotiations, pressure, & are willing to take a little time to share with all good Civers by sharing here then...

Be a part of Civ History & have some fun we RARELY GET TO ENJOY... modern, LIMITED warfare against & with humans + the beginning of the space race!!!

Mature(well, semi-mature), EXPERIENCED leaders apply herein. Or ICQ any of the "Tales of..." rulers as soon as possible... we & the vicarious Civers of the world WANT YOU!

[Grau Geist]

I'm ALL for a rescheduled day, the next 2 Sats I'm also not going to be able to play. Sunday works out great though..... So consensus? NAPPY? SUPER? WW? CAP? We all know MILO is for it

[Superstar]

I can play this Sunday, but unfortunatly I am away next week attending my graduation ceremony and University Ball.
Sundays are much better for me as I like to go out Saturdays, and Civ, although very important, has to take second place to my socail/love-life.

[Nappy]

Sun. works for me however tonight is Halloween and I will be lucky to have a couple of brain cells functioning much before 9am PST. WE change clocks tonight here in the US from PDT to PST so I believe I will go from GMT-8 to GMT-9. Whatever, I will be online with a grande cup of coffee ASAP on Sun.

[CapTVK]

Sunday works fine for me too. I've got plenty to do anyway. Same time as usual on sunday I think?

[KenThur]

U single guys are discusting!!
"Social/love-life", destorying brain cells with alcohol & such, partying all nite!!!

While us married guys work on & on. Doing nice things like handing out candy & treats to the tykes when they come to the door.

Well, i'll be fresh & ready tomarrow if we can get timing of daylight savings worked out. So as Garth said to Wayne,"Party on dudes!" See what's left of U tomarrow.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited October 30, 1999).]</font>

[Superstar]

Clocks go back an hour here too Nappy.
Being single is great Milo, although I might have to move one of my ladies in to a more permanant position over the long cold winter nights
I'll be here at 6pm GMT, see you soon