TECHNOLOGY (ver1.2): Hosted by Octopus

[the Octopus]

This thread is dedicated to generating a list of ideas for Brian Reynolds to incorporate into Civ III regarding technology. I serve as "Thread Master" for this thread, which makes me a facilitator of discussions and summarizer of things past. I have no desire to squash ideas, misrepresent people's ideas, etc. The list will be delievered as a concise list of ideas, each with a brief explanation. At the end of the list, the names of all of the posters who have contributed to the list will be included. If, in any of my summaries, you believe that I have missed something, changed something inappropriately, or could explain something better, please point it out. My goal with the summaries is to convey ideas as clearly and quickly as possible. Any and all discussion of any idea is allowed and encouraged, just becasue something appears in a summary does not make it "official" or "final". This is your list, I'm just trying to help you compile it.

This summary includes items that were posted on <a href=http://alpha.owo.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000300.html>the SMAC forums technology thread</a>, <a href=http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HTML/000511.html>CIV3: THE MASTER LIST (v1.0)-TECHNOLOGY</a> from the "Civ3 General" Forum, and <a href=http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000006.html>TECHNOLOGY(v1.1): Hosted by Octopus</a> in this forum.

The suggestions are in roughly chronological order. Items 26 to 38 are new since the last summary. I have included some notes in bold to some comments/requests from me.

1) REDUNDANT TECHS -- have multiple different ways to achieve the same in-game effect (say, a 2-1-1 unit or a "makes one unhappy person content" building) with different technological paths (for example, either "Religious Fanatacism" or "Professional Standing Army" techs might allow the 2-1-1 unit over the 1-1-1 unit). This allows different civilizations to take a less "cookie-cutter" approach to technological development, since there are no longer an "vital" technologies.

2) MULTIPLE PATHS TO A PARTICULAR ADVANCE -- Instead of having rigid prerequisites, allow several different ways to achieve a particular advance (for example, the prerequisite for "Labor Union" might be "Capitalism" and "Assembly Line", because the workers band together naturally to fight for rights, OR "Communism" and "Mass Media", because the communist activists are able to convince large numbers of workers to bargain collectively. However, "Capitalism" and "Mass Media" wouldn't do anything to advance "Labor Unions" without the other techs.).

3) RANDOM!!!! -- As long as there are multiple paths to each tech, there can be a probability that each path may or may not exist in a particular game. This adds to the excitement, and also the realism, since you can never quite be sure what your scientists will come up with until they come up with it.

4) CONCEPTS vs. APPLICATIONS -- Instead of an "all techs are equivalent" way of looking at the world, break techs into "concepts" and "applications". A "concept" might be "Gunpowder", while an "application" might be "Musketeer" or "Tunnel Construction".

5) TECH SYNERGY -- you can research multiple techs simultaneously, and researching related techs provides synnergistic effects, i.e. researching "Physics" and "Calculus" together would get you done faster than researching "Physics" and "Communism".

6) PREREQUISITE EQUIVALENCE -- instead of having a hard and fast prerequisite, allow some of them to be 'equivalence classed'. For example, if you wanted to develop "Technocracy", you need the advance on "Microchip", as well as knowledge of three government types, such as "Democracy", "Fascism", and "Monarchy".

7) PREREQUISITE POINTS -- Number 6 is actually a special case of this. In this suggestion, different technologies each contribute a certain point value to satisfying the prerequisite of a follow-on technology. For example, If you were interested in researching "Trench Warfare", you might need to gather 10 prereq points, where "Machine Guns" would give you 4, "Artillery" would give you 7, "Chemical Warfare" would give you 3, and "Conscription" would give you 3. I have criticized this because I think it is too complicated. Some others like it. I think more discussion is warranted. Please read Bell's posts on the topic, because he explains what he means better than I have done so far

8) NEW TECH: MUSIC -- A dead end tech that adds +50% to the effectiveness of entertainers. So an entertainer gains an early boost of +100% with the discover of music and construction of a market place. This suggestion seems to be unpopular. Should it be removed or altered to make it more palatable?

9) FACTION/CIVILIZATION SPECIFIC TECH TREES -- different cultures look at the world in different ways, so it wouldn't be surprising to see that they would follow different paths or discover different technologies in different orders.

10) MAKE TECH TREE REFLECT GAME SITUATION -- the current game situation should affect the tech tree. A land-locked civ is unlikely to develop "Navigation", and a civ with poor mineral resources is unlikely to develop "Advanced Mining".

11) GREATER EMPHASIS ON THE ARTS -- The tech tree in general focuses on military hardware and hard science, leaving the Arts somewhat unaddressed (this suggestion probably needs to be fleshed out more). Like 8, there is some question about this. However, see items 35 and 36

12) MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE TECHNOLOGY -- Developing one technology might not make sense when another one already existed. "Green Industries" and "Advanced Toxic Waste Disposal" might be examples of this.

13) REVERSE ENGINEERING -- Fighting and destroying or capturing enemy units with superior technology should aid in the discovery of that technology.

14) LESS DETERMINISTIC RESEARCH PROGRESS -- Instead of just "100 Research Points gets you an advance" it should be "100 Research Points gives you a 5% chance of discovering tech, 110 RP gives you 10%, etc". This should follow some sort of curve (A bell curve was suggested, but I think other curves might be interesting -- discussion?)

15) BASIC THEORETICAL RESEARCH -- Have some reserch points devoted to "basic research" that isn't likely to produce any specific advances (i.e. won't give you a specific building or unit or something), but which enhance research in other areas (e.g. research in "Basic Physics" might enhance the speed at which you research "Lasers", "Nuclear Fission", and "Nuclear Fusion", but you could achieve those advances without doing the basic research, just at a higher cost. This would be a tradeoff -- Do I want Fission now, or do I want to invest a little more up front, and be sure of getting all three sooner in the long run, even though I wouldn't get any specific advance until later).

16) RESEARCH SYNERGY THROUGH DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS -- We should get bonuses to our technology development rate if we are on friendly diplomatic terms with other civs researching similar technology because of international science conferences, wider circulation technical journals, access to each other's research, etc.

17) HAVE GOVERNMENT/DIPLOMATIC CHOICES AFFECT TECH DEVELOPMENT -- Would a Democratic government ever research "Doctrine: Loyalty"?

18) AI TECH TRADING INTELLIGENCE -- Make sure that the AIs only make tech trades that make sense. Why trade for "Mass Transit" if you don't have "Automobile"?

19) FORBID 'OUT-OF-ORDER' TECH -- If you don't have the prereqs for a tech, you shouldn't be able to use it, even if you trade for it, etc. If (through some quirk of fate) Columbus has plans for an A-Bomb, and traded them to the Native Americans he met, it is unlikely that they would have been able to nuke Europe, since they didn't have the infrastructure to make use of the idea. Suggested enhancement to this suggestion -- link things to "literacy", or possibly "era" (e.g. bronze-age tribe can't use Renaissance idea).

20) DEVELOPMENT INERTIA -- It doesn't make sense that the same researchers who just gave you "Nuclear Fission" would be able to turn around and give you "Television, because they are only peripherally related. Scientists are specialized, and can't easily be pushed around to different fields. You should have multiple "teams", each of which is working on a different project. When they are done with one, they will research a second project in the same field at a faster rate than an unrelated field (or pay a higher cost to research an "outside our expertise" field -- the effect is the same). This idea can work closely with 21...

21) HISTORICAL ERA SHOULD PLAY A ROLE -- Since in ancient times scholars studied a wide variety of fields (they were real Renaissance men ) it makes sense to have tech specialization only play a role in more modern types of research (e.g. an ancient Greek philosopher might have contemplated both the role and practice of government as well as the laws of motion).

22) LOCATION DEPENDENT RESEARCH -- Research is done in labs and universities, and labs and universities have to actually exist somewhere. If you are counting on your scientists who are developing "Nuclear Fission" to win the war for you, but the city they are conducting the research in gets captured, you should be up a creek...

23) MULTIPLE TECHS RESEARCHED SIMULTANEOUSLY -- Some of the previous ideas require this. Only really makes sense if there is some benefit to doing things in parallel rather than in series (e.g. the "research point interest" in MoO does this, as do some other schemes put forward in the suggestion threads)

24) DIFFERENTIATED 'SCIENCE BUILDINGS' -- Have buildings which enhance the scientific output of a city differentiated: You have your choice of a Physics Lab, a Biological Research Hospital, etc., which only add their bonus when the city is contributing to the appropriate kind of research.

25) BLIND TECH -- People seem to either love or hate the blind research from SMAC. Suggested addition: "Historical Tech" -- research follow Blind Tech model up until Industrialization, after which they can use the Directed model, emulating the superior control and direction that people have over scientific discovery with modern methods

26) SERENDIPITOUS ADVANCES -- Technology discovered "accidentally". Basically a random event that gives you a tech advance.

27) LOTS OF TECHS -- Some people think we need lots, and I mean LOTS of techs. Others think that too many techs may be bad, because they would grow hard to differentiate.

28) TECH BLEED -- Scientific Advances should be able to "leak out" from high-tech civs to low-tech civs. The rate of leakage should be proportional to the age of the tech (If we drove up to a stone-age tribe they would probably realize the significance of our advanced "wheel" technology before we even got out of the car...) and also proportional to the level of diplomatic relations (if we constantly interact with another society, we are likely to be more familiar with their technology).

29) TECH ADVANCES TIED TO GAME FEATURES -- Features such as 'borders' should only be enables once the appropriate tech is discovered. (Any discussion about this? Good, bad?)

30) SCIENCE CITY IMPROVEMENTS MORE IMPORTANT FOR SCIENCE THAN ECONOMIC BUILDINGS -- Apparently in CtP, buildings which boost your economic output are more worthwhile for your research progress than Libraries and such. Don't do that in Civ 3.

31) DIFFERENT BUILDINGS HELP WITH DIFFERENT KINDS OF RESEARCH -- Barracks can conduct military research, temples can conduct religous/philosophical research, etc. (Ecce Homo, is this accurate?)

32) MULTIPLE PREREQS -- More than just two should be possible. This suggestion is probably implicit in some of the more ambitious prereq schemes.

33) SPACING OF TECHS IN THE TREE -- Make sure that the techs are judiciously placed in the tree so we don't have too few in one era and too many in another. Try to keep it balanced.

34) RESEARCH PRIORITY SLIDER BARS WITH 'INERTIA' -- There should be several "fields" of research (e.g. Philosophy, Agriculture, Economics, etc.) and you can set different allocations for the different fields (e.g. 25% of research points to Philosophy, 25% to Ag, 50% to Econ.). However, whenever you change the allocation, you take a hit to the "efficiency" at which you research, which is proportional to the magnitude of the change. This "efficiency hit" is reflected in the rate at which you acquire research points. This "efficiency hit" gradually diminishes over time (an exponential decay?) until your society reaches "scientific equilibrium" at the new settings. This effect is likely to result in a "character" for different civs, because some will emphasize one field over another, and be unlikely to change because of the cost.

35) TECHNOLOGY SHOULD INCREASE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF ENTERTAINERS -- Certain technologies should enhance the effectiveness of your "entertainer" specialists in the city screen (e.g. Television).

36) MAKE ARTS ADVANCES 'SCORE BOOSTERS' -- Maybe Art and Culture advances should simply be score boosters (like "Future Tech") or one time benefits.

37) RESOURCE LIMITATION LIFTING TECHS -- In SMAC there were some techs that you needed to research before you could gather more than 2 resources of each type. While an interesting idea, the implementation in SMAC was too limiting. The techs which lifted the limits were too indispensible, and came in too late, often choking off an empire until they could be found. I'd like to include some concrete suggestions for improving this. Shining1 suggested that resource limits should be a function of Social Engineering. Other thoughts?.

38) FAMOUS SCIENTISTS -- Scientific personalities, such as Einstein or Pasteur might provide some "flavor" to the scientific experience. Maybe these are random events that give you one time bonuses? ("Pasteur has established a laboratory in Paris, science output doubles in Paris for one turn" or something).

Contributors to the list from previous threads: 23 Skidoo, Al Gore Rythm, Bell, CapTVK, Depp, Druid2, Earwicker, Ecce Homo, EnochF, Imran Siddiqui, JT, Kerris, Kyle, Mark_Everson, Octopus, Ralph, Shining1, Singularity, SnowFire, Trachmyr, Transcend, Urban Ranger, Utrecht, Zorloc, anachron, bene4, meowser, wheathin, yin26, zaz. Your contributions are appreciated!

[b]Let the discussion and suggestions continue!!!![b]


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CIV3-THE MASTER LIST-TECHNOLOGY "THREAD MASTER"


[This message has been edited by the Octopus (edited May 23, 1999).]

[Shining1]

Snowfire: At last a rational mind in this thread. Thank god.

Yeah, I like the idea of having discrete values to the levels of tech - just like city improvements take a certain number of shields to build.

To counter problems with this, I suggest that maybe there be a limit set on the maximum number of points your civilisation can generate per turn - reflecting the fact that putting 100% effort into science results in no more result than 30% - once you have all the good minds and required structures, it still takes time to process the math.

This limit is of course a floating one, increasing according to population, and possibly some city improvements or wonders.


To everyone else: PLEASE! This is a game! The system must be simple and have a large degree of choice (enforced choice - not just 'check all the boxes' stuff) to it - if the player is not in control, it becomes uninteresting no matter how realistic it seems. Keep it FUN.

[Shining1]

Above post as a reply to the thread system suggestions that involved excessive numbers of variables or allowed no choice for the player - these points should be taken into consideration for any working system.

[SnowFire]

I'm going to explain #34 perhaps a bit deeper: in real life, this would somewhat equate to Eisenhower focusing on math and science more in the schools to "Catch up" with the more advanced Russians who were launching Sputnik at the time while American rockets were blowing up on the launch pad. The result wasn't instant; but given a few years, with encouragement and more scholarships being given to majors in science and other technology that was emphasized in the program, as well as more student work in the field, creates a stronger generation of scientists in that field for the next generation. The reason why you can't just focus 100% one field at a time, like in Civ, is because the massive efficiency hit taken, as well as the even worse efficiency hit when you try to change to 100% focus in another field, will result in terrible research rates. That's your inspiration not to "focus" too much.

Now, this is some more refinement of this idea. The question is- what if my economists are happily researching along. They've just discovered their next economics tech and- gasp- there is nothing left to research. Actually, there's plenty left to research, you just don't have their prerequisites from other fields yet. Well, when you run into areas like this, there should be "bonus" or "accessory" techs to research in each field, if we really are going to have tons of techs after all. These can and probably will be leapfrogged by other civs with a more well-rounded approach or a de-emphasis on that category. The result is that my civilization that never focused much on Agriculture might get refrigeration, but never have had an opportunity to have gotten some extra, helpful technologies in the field that are now gone forever, too far behind in the tech charts. Perhaps this crosses the line of "too" complex; oh well.

This can also be enhanced with the "dedicate" feature that was mentioned before, but in an unrefined form (you could dedicate to at least 6 disciplines in the old system). When I build a library, I give it a discipline for it to have a focus to. Now, let's say my city makes 10 science, and I dedicate my library to psychology. The city still gets 5 more science points. And let's say that in the entire empire, 50 science points are dedicated to psychology every turn. By some formula, the number of bonus points from libraries (so libraries in big cities count more) are added up and made into an extra bonus, so you get an extra boost to topics you dedicate your libraries to. When you build a University, you can add another discipline to be studied at that city that then gets bonus points outside the standard +50% bonus. This would sort of include #22, except that it's not like you lose all your nuclear research; it's just that the city with the nuclear power plant and had built "Isaac Newton's Library" (+300% to Physics research in this city, +20% throughout empire) isn't producing massive amounts of physics science for you anymore.

Another idea on the other suggestions so far: #1 depends on the unit system, whether it will be modeled off of SMAC or CivII. If it's off of SMAC, we very well may end up with "Fanatic Spearmen" (3-2-1 costs 200 resources). So that's really up to the "units" thread people more than us.

[Shining1]

Hmmmm. Offshoot techs. An interesting idea. Perhaps it could be considered as after-shocks from the main line of research - stuff that crops up after the discovery of one tech but before the discovery of another.

An extra list of techs and small inventions that occur truely randomly, benefitting a player only occasionally - not in every game.

So, you research something like 'seafaring'. You get triemes, or whatever (some naval chassis). Then you get a minor discovery event, and you discover 'sail making'. All your triemes get a +1 bonus to movement as a result.

Since each event has a small probability of occuring, and can ONLY occur immediately after you finish researching its prereq tech (these minor techs have only one prereq), this keeps them down to a minor, but significant, roll in the game.

They also add a great deal to the game in terms of historical immersion, and can be used to add historical weight to racial differences (without doing SMAC stuff and implying that the persians are naturally bad at trade).

For instance, the english had the longbow - no one else got it, because it was superceded by the rifle quite soon afterwards. So making 'long bow' a random minor tech that the british always receive adds character to that race.

So - two so far:
Seafaring - Sail making
Warrior code - longbow

Comments? Suggestions? Other minor techs people like?

[Shining1]

Issue from the City Interface thread:

It was suggested that worker units be able to be upgraded to more sophisticated workers for each square - farmers, miners, traders, etc. Each of these units will require a requistie technology, something that CivII did not do - irrigation, mines, and roads were already available at the start of the game (a good thing, but this means you never get to research argiculture or mining type techs properly). Now that there is a reason to have those techs, they need to be included in some form.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Updating, integrating, assimilating, and generally 'ing'-ing all over the place, here's a revised version of the complete tech scheme I described in a previous thread, with various commentary and other stuff I threw in just 'cause I felt like it. New terminology is italicized, so we at least know what we're talking about should anyone want to discuss anything. As always, comments, ideas, revisions, etc., are welcome, and will be incorporated into my future thinking, as I've already done with a bunch of other ideas. Along those lines, a good deal of these aren't my ideas, but I thought they were good so I integrated them.

(Note: All numbers are for discussion purposes only, and most likely wouldn't be used in the game.)

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<font size="4">The Technology Cloud System</font>

<a name="toc"><font size="4">Sections:</font></a>

<a href="#overview">1. Overview</a>
<a href="#prereq">2. Prerequisites</a>
<a href="#research">3. Research</a>
<a href="#modules">4. Modules</a>
<a href="#misc">5. Other Thoughts</a>
<a href="#examples">6. Mathematical Examples</a>

<a name="overview"><font size="4">Section 1: Overview</font></a>
I think the tech system from CivII wasn't bad, but it's also possible to use technologies as more than a way to limit when you can build when. As things are now, there's not a whole lot of strategy to picking your techs, except in those cases where you're presented with two techs that you need right this second, and have to choose one to pursue. The system I'm building from my ideas and the ones in these threads adds more strategy and long-term planning potential to the game, and integrates with gameplay much more than the current system.
<a href="#toc">Back to Sections</a>

<a name="prereq"><font size="4">Section 2: Prerequisites</font></a>
A large part of this research system is regulated by the use of prerequisites, or more specifically, prerequisite points. Prerequisite points are points you get for doing something that moves you closer to being able to research a technology. This is actually just an expanded version of the prerequisite system in place in CivII, where you (usually) had two prerequisites for each technology. If you translated the CivII tech tree into the prereq point system, it would work like this: Each technology requires two prereq points before you can begin researching it. Each of its prerequisites provides one of these points, so by researching both prereqs, the point requirement (or Research Threshold) is fulfilled and you can begin researching the new technology.

This system expands on that tech tree by offering more ways to get prereq points than just researching two prerequisite technologies. First, it allows you to get prereq points (PPs) from two types of technology prerequisites: Direct Prereqs, and Related Technologies. A direct prereq works just like the prereqs in CivII. Every technology has two direct prereqs. Each one provides you with half the PPs necessary to start research on your goal tech, so if you get both direct prereqs, you can start research immediately. Related technologies work the same way, but provide only half the PPs of a direct prereq (thus you need four related techs to begin research on your goal tech.) Any combination of direct prereqs and related technologies that add up to the research threshold allows you to begin research (<a href="#examples">ex. 1</a>).

Unlike the CivII world though, in real life the research efforts of any particular civilization do not exist in a vacuum. To reflect this, there are more ways to gain PPs that just prerequisite technologies, and any combination of them that adds up to the research threshold allows you to begin research. [Logistical note: Each technology stores its PPs separately, so it is possible to get PPs on techs your civ hasn't even imagined yet, and still have them apply once you've advanced enough to worry about beginning research.] First, if you capture an enemy unit that requires the goal tech, you get a PP toward that technology. (Ed.--This solves the problem of reverse engineering a technology, which there's been call for since the original Civ. There's a bit of built-in game balancing though, because instead of actually giving you the tech, it just contributes a prereq point.) You also get PPs for capturing an enemy city. Espionage is another source of stealing PPs from an opponent.

In addition to theft and pillaging, cooperation between civs can help you gain PPs as well. For instance, if you are in good diplomatic standing with a more advanced civ, their technologies will slowly bleed off to you in the form of PPs. The same goes for trade between two civs of different tech levels. (<a href="#examples">ex. 2</a>) This tech bleed is only a function of your diplomatic relations and the relative tech levels of your civs, though, and is completely automated. In fact, you can't prevent it at all, so this feature tends to keep any one player from getting a huge tech lead on the rest of the world (or at least, once they get it, it's hard to maintain.) There are limits to how far you can advance in a certain amount of time, though. Every technology falls into one of 10 or 15 technological eras. These eras begin when a breakthrough technology is discovered, like gunpowder, industrialization, etc. No matter how may prereq points you gain from other civs, you can't begin research on any tech from an era more advanced than your own. So, even if you have lived next door to a culture with jet aircraft, you can't begin research on them when your most advanced technology is chivalry.

Overall, the purpose behind prereq points is to add variety to the tech tree. Since there are multiple paths to any given tech, and even paths that don't require any immediate prerequisite technologies at all, there's no 'path of least resistance' up the tech tree like there is in CivII. You can still play the tech tree using only the direct prereqs, and it will look just like the CivII tree, but there is the option of adding more variety if you want it. On the other hand, since any given source of PPs can be turned off without affecting the entire system, there can be the option turning off or modifying a particular source. Say you don't want to be able to reverse engineer captured units. Just shut it off in a text file or in a config menu, and it's gone. Or, you can make tech bleed faster on different levels of difficulty just by changing a few numbers. It's a flexible system that you can do as little or as much with as you like.
<a href="#toc">Back to Sections</a>

<a name="research"><font size="4">Section 3: Research</font></a>
Research is where you actually start applying all those research points your cities are producing. Under the tech cloud system, though, your research efforts aren't restricted to a single technology at a time. Instead, you can do parallel research, splitting your research points between 3 techs at once (and Basic Theory, which is described in <a href="#modules">modules</a>.) These three techs can come from any category, they aren't restricted like in MoO. The reason for parallel research (besides providing for basic theory) is to allow for Research Synergy. Research synergy occurs when you are researching two or more Related Techs (Ed.--The same related techs that are used in PPs?). By simultaneously researching complimentary technologies, you develop both of them faster. For instance, if you researched Calculus and Physics at the same time, the research points applied to each would get a 10% bonus (<a href="#examples">ex. 3</a>).

Allocating research points to your 3 techs and theory is done with a set of sliders in your research screen. The default is sending 25% of your total points to each research project. You can set the sliders to any percentage of your total research points, but shifting points from one project to another incurs a temporary penalty as your scientists are taken off their current projects and set loose on another one. This penalty does not apply when transferring points to basic theory, but it does apply when taking them from theory and applying them to other research (<a href="#examples">ex. 4</a>.)
<a href="#toc">Back to Sections</a>

<a name="modules"><font size="4">Section 4: Modules</font></a>
Modules are concepts that I think sound good and would fit into this system, but it would probably be best if not all of them are added to the system, to keep the complexity from getting out of hand.

Basic Theory: Basic Theory is another slider that you can allocate a percentage of your research points to every turn. The amount of research points you spend on theory ends up giving you a bonus to the tech points on the techs you're researching, but it acts as a function of your theory points vs. the total research points you've produced. This forces you to decide between immediate gratification and long-term benefit (<a href="#examples">ex. 5</a>.)

Specialized Buildings: Specialized buildings are city improvements that provide science bonuses only to certain categories of research. When you build a high-tech building, you dedicate it to a specific branch of research at build time. Each city can only have one building, dedicated to a single field (for instance, building a Sociology Lab and a Physics Lab in the same city aren't permitted. Limiting them to one per city means that a particular building/city could be very important to you--that could be the only city giving you a bonus in life sciences, and if you lose it, you're in big trouble. However, lower-tech buildings can provide bonuses smaller bonuses to more research categories (<a href="#examples">ex. 6</a>.)

Randomized Applications: Researching a technology doesn't have the same result every game. In one game, it may give you a new weapon, and in the next, you might get a new building. Which you get would be locked in when you start the game, to avoid save/resume cheats. I'm sorta shaky on this one, though, I don't know if it's a good idea or not.
<a href="#toc">Back to Sections</a>

<a name="misc"><font size="4">Section 5: Other Thoughts</font></a>
-Spontaneous tech migration. After enough (a lot) of contact between two cultures at different tech levels, a tech owned by the advanced civ might spontaneously be discovered by the lower one. Unlike tech bleed, this is not limited by technological era.
-Under any tech system, there is a need for a good tech viewer. I'd suggest something like Magnifind, a 3d file viewer (<a href="http://www.inxight.com/MagniFind.htm">www.inxight.com/maginfind.htm</a>)
-This system will require quite a few techs . . . I'm guessing probably 1.5 times as many as CivII.
-Specialized buildings could be replaced with other buildings dedicated to a certain type of tech. Barracks for military techs, temples for sociology techs, etc.
<a href="#toc">Back to Sections</a>

<a name="examples"><font size="4">Section 6: Mathematical Examples</font></a>

Included for clarity purposes . . .
1. Direct Prerequisites and Related Technologies.

Goal: Crossbow (research threshold: 12 PPs)
Direct Prereqs: Longbow, Recurved Bow (6 PPs)
Related Technologies: Spear, Sling (3 PPs)

Possible combinations of techs: Longbow(6) + Recurved Bow(6), Longbow(6) + Spear(3) + Sling(3), Recurved Bow(6) + Spear(3) + Sling(3).

2. Other Sources of PPs

Spear(3) + Sling(3) + Diplomacy [(3)*(6)/(5) = (3.6) --> (3)] + Trade [(15)*(6)/(30) = (3)] = 12 points
Longbow(6) + Captured Archers (3) + Captured Archers (3) = 12 points
Recurved Bow(6) + Captured London(6) = 12 points
etc . . .

3. Synergetic Research

You are currently researching Calculus, Physics, and Gunpowder. Your empire generates 1000 research points per turn. Calculus and Physics each require 5000 points, and Gunpowder requires 7500. You decide to dedicate 25% of your research points to each of the technologies, and 25% to Theory.

Calculus and Physics are related techs, so you get a 10% bonus to the 250 points both techs are getting that turn. Gunpowder is a base technology, so there are no related techs for Gunpowder.

You also have embassies with 3 empires that already have Calculus, and are on good diplomatic standing with them, so you get another 15% bonus on Calculus. Two of those empires also have Physics, so you get a 10% bonus on that as well. Nobody has Gunpowder yet.

So, for this turn, here's how your research ends up:

Physics: 250 points (25% of 1000 total this turn) + 10% related tech bonus + 10% Diplomatic bonus = 250 + (250*.2)=300 points.

Calculus: 250 points (25% of 1000 total this turn) + 10% related tech bonus + 15% Diplomatic bonus = 250 + (250*.25)=312 points.

Gunpowder: 250 points (25% of 1000 total this turn) = 250 points.

4. Shifting Research

You are currently researching Calculus, Physics, and Gunpowder at 25% per, and Theory at 25%. You decide you need Gunpowder right this second, so you set Calculus and Physics at 10% each, Gunpowder at 80%, and Theory at 0%. The only tech that increased in Gunpowder, and it increased by 55%. You get 1/4 of this increase each turn for the next 4 turns, with the rest wasted.

Turn 1: 1000 points produced total, 25% goes to each category. Everything gets 250 points.
Turn 2: 1000 points produced total, 10% goes to Calculus and Physics, 38% goes to Gunpowder, the rest is waste.
Turn 3: 1000 points produced total, 10% goes to Calculus and Physics, 52% goes to Gunpowder, the rest is waste.
Turn 4: 1000 points produced total, 10% goes to Calculus and Physics, 66% goes to Gunpowder, the rest is waste.

Turn 5: 1000 points produced total, 10% goes to Calculus and Physics, 80% goes to Gunpowder.

5. Basic Theory Bonus

The Theory Bonus is based on the total percentage of Theory points gathered vs. the total number of research points your empire has produced. Say you're on turn two. On the first turn, you generated 1000 research points, even distribution, which means 250 of them went to Theory. You do this for ten turns, so after the tenth turn you have 2500 Theory points, and your empire has generated a total of 10000 research points. Your Theory bonus is double (total Theory points/total Research points) thus 50%. (This is a good investment, because your 50% bonus on each of three techs has given you a total of (250+.50))*(3 techs per turn) *10turns= 3750 Theory bonus points, for an investment of 2500 Research points. Then, you decide to redistribute your research so that each tech gets 1/3 of your Research points each turn, and Theory gets none. You go like this for another 10 turns. Now, your Theory bonus on turn 21 is 2*(2500 total Theory points/20000 total Research points) which is 25%. If you then returned to even distribution for another 10 turns, the bonus is 2*(5000 total Theory points/30000 total Research points) which is 33.2%. So, you have to maintain your investment in base Theory, or the Theory bonus starts to lose potency.

6. Specialized Buildings

There are currently three science buildings in CivII: Library, University, and Research Lab. Under this system, every Library would provide a 25% bonus to research points applied to all technologies. Universities in each city must be declared to study two technological fields, and provides each a 50% bonus. Research Labs in each city are declared to only one field, but they give a 100% bonus to all research points in that field.

[This message has been edited by Bell (edited May 21, 1999).]

[the Octopus]

I want to re-emphasize that people should try (as I am at least trying to do ) to keep my comments as "Thread Master" and my personal opinions separate. The only thing that will cause or prevent an item from being included in the list will be "public opinion", which I personally only contribute 1/n of, where n is the number of posters in these threads. If an idea is widely condemned, I may remove it from the list, but few things are likely to get removed (although some might be consolidated or altered for clarity, or something).

I hope that nobody is afraid to disagree with me in my personal opinions. Who knows, you might even change my mind . I'll also point out that nobody should be intimidated by somebody else's long post, or by their style, or even by their popular support. We want to hear all voices here, and voices of criticism are welcome. Criticism almost always results in a superior "product" in the end. I want this to be the best list that it can possibly be, because I want Civ III to be the best game it can possibly be.

If anyone has any questions, concerns, criticisms, suggestions, etc. about how individual threads or the entire list process can be improved please do not hesitate to inform yin, me, or any of the other thread masters.


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CIV3-THE MASTER LIST-TECHNOLOGY "THREAD MASTER"

[yin26]

Bell,

Your summary is beautiful. It's like a work of art. When the time comes, I will direct the Thread Masters to that post for ideas on organizing their topic summaries. I'm still studying your codes to see how you did it all!

Octopus,

Very nicely said. It is difficult to image how much room there is here for us to screw this up by yelling and screaming and pushing for our own ideas. Octopus has proven himself to be most willing to take criticism and reaffirm his commitment to teamwork.

We all appreciate that, Octopus. Keep up the great work with this thread.

Yin

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CIV3 DEVELOPMENT LIST COORDINATOR

**(un)Officially Making Lists for Firaxis Since SMAC Enhancement 3!**

[Utrecht]

Thinking about the ideas of having civ specific technologies (and by extension units).

This would certainly provide differntiation between the various civs. However, the need to develop certain techs was very location dependent.

For example: the Nordic people were an exceptionally talented seafaring race. However if in Civ they are placed in the middle of Asia, thier "bonus" would not necesarily make sense.

Instead I would like to expand on a previous posters concept of location depenent/trait tech.

There will be numerous "tech classes" that are assigned to a civ when they are placed onto the map, in effect becomming an attribute of that civ.

Examples of this could be

1) Seafaring
2) Trading
3) Bueracratic
4) Miliaristic
5) Agricultural

Thus, when a civ is placed on the map, they would get 1 tech from its "specialty" and is more likely to be presented with technologies from their specialty and recieve a moderate (10%) bonus to the research.

This bonus would disappear at the modern age since information sharing made these specialization less important.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hey Octopus, thanks for thinking highly enough of my historical tech idea to put it in the Thread Summerary. Of course it'd be your choice wheather or not to pick that mode of research.

------------------
Imran Siddiqui
Moderator SG Forums - www.sidgames.com/forums/ ,

"Sir, I would rather be right than be President."

-Henry Clay

[Koyaanisqatsi]

The Octopus writes:
I'll also point out that nobody should be intimidated by somebody else's long post, or by their style, or even by their popular support.

Yes, I'm not trying to intimidate or bully anyone with some of my longer posts, I'm just putting forth my idea of how the overall system would work using some of the ideas posted. Please, feel free to add to or trash or generally ignore anything in those posts. I'm putting them up to generate discussion on the ideas they contain, not to kill of everything else.

[SnowFire]

Utrecht: I can see different leaders for each civilization, but different characterizations from the start will be difficult for a large number of civs and probably offensive. Best to keep with leader personalities and nothing more.

Bell: A few things. I for one don't like the "synergy" effect you describe. In fact, I would say something of the opposite. I'd give the bonus only after discovering a technology to then working on the other field. Physics is a lot easier with calculus, so I say give the bonus to calculus after you're done researching physics. Besides, you're suggesting once again that you can set 66% of your civilization to all be mathematicians and scientists when they aren't going to be. I could understand CivI's abstraction of technology, but I was hoping for a more realistic, well-rounded system in CivIII. How my system would work it would be "Discovery of elementary physics speeds all physics research by 5%" and "Discovery of calculus speeds all physics research by 5%." Otherwise, you're forcing the player to do their technologies and groups of three of the same technology to get maximum benefit. It shouldn't be like that. I'll pitch my system again- 4 or 5 categories (tentatively philosophy, psychology, math & physics, agriculture & biology, and economics) of science and a set percentage of scientists dedicated to that field (realistic, after all). Each bar would be researching one technology within it's field. And there would be "inertia" when changing them (see #34).

Plus, your "prerequisite points" system won't really work unless you truly have a vast array of technology that absolutely requires leapfrogging of techs in order to get ahead. Who is going to have the longbow and recurved bow, but not have the spear and sling? The end result is that this system would allow a lot more leapfrogging in the tree- do I need my longbows now, or skip them and research for crossbows instead? In order for there to be any choice at all, you would have to have set technology points for levels (not CivI & II's simple exponential scale that didn't differentiate between difficulty), and I bet the computer would have a tough time with a system like that.

Your tech bleed system I don't like either. I'm all for tech bleed, but instead of just letting you research it (which is not a problem at all in most cases of roughly technology-equal civs anyway) by giving you more prereq points, it should provide a bonus in cost. That diplomatic contact should reduce the cost by ((Gold Changed hands)*(treaty level)*(A really small number to keep it manageable))percentage points per turn. Defeating an enemy unit with that technology nets a bonus of anywhere from 5-25% of the points off of that technology, depending on the roll of the dice and the difference in technology. When spies attempt to steal technology, instead of stealing everything outright, they may only steal plans to get you 50% there, and you have to research the rest yourself. Same with capturing a city- you can get anywhere from 0-50% on any technologies of that civ. When you have a 100% bonus on researching the item (and still haven't bothered to), you get it for free.

Also, going back to the disciplines thing, I wouldn’t quite call them "Sociology labs," etc. I would have, in the beginning, just the basic library, and you could dedicate it to any of the 5 disciplines. Next is your university, and you add another discipline to focus in. I’d kill the "research lab" of CivII and then add things similar to your ideas, like "Nuclear Power Plant: (Basic effect with resources.) Speeds physics research in city, if it has a library or university dedicated to it, by 50%. Or "Stock Market: (basic money effect). Increases economics research by 50%, if city is dedicated to that discipline." "Capitol: Government center, blah blah. Increases philosophy research by 100% in city." "Hospital: Increases population growth by 15%, makes two drones content. Increases biology research in city by 25% if yada yada yada." You get the idea.

Octopus: Kill 8 & 11, and add the "Categories of science" idea in a separate number of its own. If you use my system (not that you have to), the arts would be covered under the psych category. Also, 22 is sort of already in Civ II, unless you want to count actually losing the science researched by the people in the city, which is an idea I really don't like. I also suggest that 21, 23, 24, and 31 be changed to integrate them better. Ex: "24- "Dedication" of science buildings. When a library or university is built, you dedicate it to one of the categories of science, so each city may have two research focuses*. Some modern buildings, in the era of increased specialization, will add bonuses to research as well, but only if the city is dedicated to the proper discipline. Ex: A Nuclear Power Plant helps physics research if the city is a prestigious center of physics research, and the capitol insures that the capitol is a main governmental/philosophical center with a bonus to philosophy. As time marches on, cities can become very specialized, unlike the philosopher of old."

That last sentence should probably be deleted for the actual letter, but I wanted to tie 21 in a bit more clearly.

On 25- I prefer having a "ratio." Early on, you may only get 1 "directed" tech to every 3 "random" techs, but as time marches on, you get better and better control over where your society heads. Besides, depending on how much the AI cheats in the early game, direct control over techs early on might be too vital to give up. So your choices at the beginning of the game would be directed research, historical research (using the ratio instead of the awkward jump), and blind research.

I’d change 26 to combine with 38 to read "Random Events- Events occur that give specialized bonuses and penalties in science that are historical. For instance, "Pasteur establishes lab in Paris! Biology research +100% there for next 20 turns, and Paris gets 10% bonus permenantly," or "Einstein sets up lab in Princeton! Physics research increased by 150% there for next 25 turns."

I have no problem with 37. I liked that feature in SMAC, though the AI should have put a greater emphasis on Gene Splicing, Eco. Engineering, and Environmental Economics, since those 2 techs were so vital to win the game (as a builder, at least). It should be changed a bit though, and governments should step in and play a role.

*Actually foci, but who uses that term?

[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited May 21, 1999).]

[EnochF]

(See, this is why I want to start a separate Future Technology topic. This one is filled with incredibly long, point-by-point descriptions of complex new systems which completely redefine the nature of the technology tree. If there happen to be a handful of future tech ideas buried in all this, it would be a pain to go searching for them, and they'd probably be ignored anyway. I realize Future Tech wouldn't generate as many responses as Technology. That's why I'm volunteering to start a separate thread! I don't envy Octopus for having to summarize all the systems being invented here. I'd rather just suggest some specific technologies, refine and/or redefine the future tech as presented in Civ II and Call to Power, and try to come up with something we can all live with. In short, I want Future Tech to be something more than an afterthought in our suggestions.)

[This message has been edited by EnochF (edited May 21, 1999).]

[the Octopus]

"If there happen to be a handful of future tech ideas buried in all this, it would be a pain to go searching for them, and they'd probably be ignored anyway."

Fear not, EnochF. As Thread Master I shall make sure that any and all coherent ideas appear in at least one summary. A proposal for a specific technology would definitely make it. Look at the "Music" example. If you don't want to search through the thread, wait for the next summary. I'll tell you now (to save you the suspense) that nobody has been suggesting many specific technologies, and no future techs have been suggested at all.

"This one is filled with incredibly long, point-by-point descriptions"

All kinds of posts have a place here. Bell and SnowFire are contributing in the way that they feel most comfortable. I think both new systems and new "little things" are important suggestions.

"I'd rather just suggest some specific technologies"

You don't need permission, just start posting.

"In short, I want Future Tech to be something more than an afterthought in our suggestions."

In the near future, I plan to break my summary into three different sections. One section will deal with the tech tree (the place for the prerequisite systems), one section will deal with the research process (the place for things like SnowFire's system, #34), and a third section for specific technological suggestions. The kind of things you want to talk about (I think) will show up there. I promise you that I will make every effort to ensure that every suggestion is treated fairly.


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CIV3-THE MASTER LIST-TECHNOLOGY "THREAD MASTER"

[the Octopus]

I don't want the thread to get completely sidetracked by meta-issues. Come on, people, I know there are more ideas out there, let's hear 'em! Don't be afraid if your ideas aren't as grandiose as some others that have already been posted, we can use some simple ideas to balance the thread out . (That's not to say the grandiose ideas aren't welcome, all ideas are welcome).

I personally like item 34 in the list (SnowFire's multiple fields with inertia). I think it has a lot of potential. It seems to me to have a nice balance between controllability and playability (it's very similar to Master of Orion 1, which I think had an excellent interface in terms if minimizing micromanagement and maximizing the time spent doing fun stuff). For that idea and some of the others already suggested, it looks like we need basic "categories" of techs (SnowFire has suggested: philosophy, psychology, math & physics, agriculture & biology, and economics. How about some discussion of these or suggestions of some others? Which categories would some of our "tried-and-true" technologies fit in a scheme like this?


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CIV3-THE MASTER LIST-TECHNOLOGY "THREAD MASTER"

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Snowfire writes
Physics is a lot easier with calculus, so I say give the bonus to calculus after you're done researching physics.

Yeah, but a modern physics wouldn't have developed nearly as quickly without calculus, and calculus wouldn't have developed as quickly without physics. They were developed simultaneously, and really, couldn't have been developed independantly without a lot of false turns and guesswork (well, ok, more than there are now.) There's a lot of technologies that are like that.

Besides, you're suggesting once again that you can set 66% of your civilization to all be mathematicians and scientists when they aren't going to be.

a set percentage of scientists dedicated to that field [. . .] And there would be "inertia" when changing them

Could you explain these further? I'm not sure what you mean.

In order for there to be any choice at all, you would have to have set technology points for levels

What do you mean? That's the point of the whole system, to give you options and choices. And since there's more integration with the game itself, you have to be more responsive to game cirucmstances, and make choices based on long/short term gains.

[Mark_Everson]

How about making each tech have Directly Tied To It a number of research points needed to achieve it. There are some big advantages to this...

For those who might not know, the main thing in Civ2 that determines the cost of the next advance is the number of techs you currently have. There are modifiers for world size, blah blah blah, but the # of techs is the main one. What this means is that I can't get Masonry from the Bablylonians without hurting my progress in everything else. This leads to some downright weird strategies for tech.

What I propose instead of this is that, say, Monarchy Always has a cost of 150 lightbulbs or whatever. That way when I get Masonry from the Babs it doesn't screw up my advance toward that critical Monarchy.


------------------
Mark Everson
Project lead for The Clash of Civilizations
(That means I do the things nobody else wants to do )
This Radically different civ game needs your suggestions and/or criticism of our design.
Check our our Forum right here at Apolyton...

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Mark_Everson writes
For those who might not know, the main thing in Civ2 that determines the cost of the next advance is the number of techs you currently have.

I'd forgotten about that . . . in any case, I'd intended that techs each have a set number of points required to discover them.

[BoomBoom]

Ok i was thinking right, does the research tree have to be historically accurate?
Because if it isn't, you could have games where a civ, instead of going for "our" more mechanical view of research (ie. using machines, physics etc, for our major advances), could go for a more cerebral approach (focussing more on pshychological powers). Anther possible line could be organic (anyone seen eXistenZ?).
Now I don't know if this would suit the first game in the series, but it should come in at some point. Just because we focus on mechanical aspects does not mean other civs do the same (on earth for example one could think of the Mayas as an example of a more mystic, cerebral race (mainly based in Maths)).
To do implement this system one would have to have relatively equivalent techs along the tree (for example both should have a building early on that increases growth by 25%). This would make games more interesting by pitting you against civs that had developed their techs along a completely different route.

[SnowFire]

Well, rules.txt is the next best thing. Here are my ideas on the current tehnologies:

Key: Ph=Philosophy, Psy=Psychology, MP=Math & Physics, Bio=Agriculture & Biology, Eco=Economics, --=kill the tech, ?=not sure.

Advanced Flight, MP
Alphabet, Ph
Amphibious Warfare, --
Astronomy, MP
Atomic Theory, MP
Automobile, MP
Banking, Ec
Bridge Building, MP
Bronze Working, Ec
Ceremonial Burial Psy
Chemistry, MP
Chivalry, Psy
Code of Laws, Ph
Combined Arms, --
Combustion, MP
Communism, Ec/Ph (not sure)
Computers, MP
Conscription, Ph
Construction, MP
The Corporation, Ec
Currency, Ec
Democracy, Ph
Economics, Ec
Electricity, MP
Electronics, MP
Engineering, MP
Environmentalism ?
Espionage, Psy
Explosives, MP
Feudalism, Ph
Flight, MP
Fundamentalist Psy
Fusion Power, MP
Genetic Engineering Bio
Guerrilla Warfare Psy
Gunpowder, MP
Horseback Riding Bio
Industrialization Ec
Invention, Ph
Iron Working, ?
Labor Union, Ec
The Laser, MP
Leadership, --
Literacy, Ph
Machine Tools Ec
Magnetism, MP
Map Making, Ph
Masonry, ?
Mass Production Ec
Mathematics, MP
Medicine, Bio
Metallurgy, Ec
Miniaturization Ec
Mobile Warfare --
Monarchy, Ph
Monotheism, Psy
Mysticism, Psy
Navigation, MP
Nuclear Fission MP
Nuclear Power, MP
Philosophy, Ph
Physics, MP
Plastics, MP (eco?)
Polytheism, Psy
Pottery, Bio?
Radio, MP
Railroad, MP (eco?)
Recycling, MP? (Ph? Eco?)
Refining, Eco (Bio?)
Refrigeration, Bio
The Republic, Ph
Robotics, MP
Rocketry, MP
Sanitation, Bio
Seafaring, Bio?
Space Flight, MP
Stealth, MP (--?)
Steam Engine, MP
Steel, Eco
Superconductor MP
Tactics, --
Theology, Psy
Theory of Gravity MP
Trade, Eco
University, Ph
Warrior Code, -- (Bio?)
The Wheel, MP
Writing, Ph

As you can see, Math & Physics constitutes the bulk of the current tech chart- more than half of it, probably. And that's taking some techs that might be considered part of it and putting them under Economics. Agriculture & Bio has very very little under the current system, and Psych could use a few more techs as well. Not that they all don't need more. Now, I'm not saying we have to totally change the tech tree around, but we should figure out some more balanced categories so we don't all turn Ag & Bio down to 5%.

[the Octopus]

I recieved this via e-mail, and the person doesn't care about being mentioned in the list. I don't mind doing this, but if you want your name to show up in the final credits for the list, you <u>must</u> post in the appropriate list thread. We will be gathering the names of those who have contributed by parsing the .html files that make up these threads. If your name isn't in the appropriate place, the parser won't know that you have contributed. We are doing this to both give you the recognition that you deserve and also to show Brian that lots of people contributed to this list, not just a few people with their own private agenda.


---------------------------------------------

A. Every tech should give a small bonus to a specific region. Trade would givr +5% to economy, plant selection to food making,
etc.
B. Techs should be hard to accquire ( many more points of research ), to force cultures to trade techs between themselfs
( like in real history, no single country discovered the entire tech tree ).
C. More emphesis on food making techs ( very vital along history ). Those are: Plants cultivasion, Farming, Irrigation, Genetic manipultion, food cycle, manauring technics.
D. Techs should give types of armor, chassis and weapons, like SMAC, and not made units. This way, you could custom make
your own unit ( a knight, would be chassis: horseman, armor: chest-mail, weapon: lance, ability: chivalry ( +50% morale ).
E. You should be able to spend research to upgrade those items. Improvments to chassis: longer ranges, better speed, etc.
Arms race. Just like in history. Even in the middle ages, battles were won and lost due to the level of the swords and armor.

"Downloading techs". You could just
download new techs from Firaxis ( if they will go for the big tech tree
model, they would need to create hundreds of techs ), and then new ideas
would pop up all the time.

---------------------------------------------

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CIV3-THE MASTER LIST-TECHNOLOGY "THREAD MASTER"

[SnowFire]

Mark: Exactly. That's why I'm asking for specific costs; to prevent pottery from taking forever to be researched by an advanced society, simply because the game assumes pottery must be a really advanced technology because I've already discovered so many.


Bell: "Yeah, but a modern physics wouldn't have developed nearly as quickly without calculus, and calculus wouldn't have developed as quickly without physics."

I can't agree more. Calculus is easier with physics, and physics is easier with calculus. However, you have to divide them, unfortunately (though you could make one a prerequisite of the other). But if I research physics first, and then research calculus, are you telling me I shouldn't get my syngery bonus? After all, not only do I already have physics to help me out, but it's actually complete- it's not half finished, like it would be normally. And yet I get no bonus for it because I didn't research at the same time, which goes back to that old fallacy of all scientists being equal and them all being generalists. This can still lead to some strange game play quirks, like putting all three of yor research projects on the same field, and then putting your next three on the same field, etc.

Now, I can see your point if you still get the synergy bonus when the other member of a pair has already been researched. But otherwise...

"In order for there to be any choice at all, you would have to have set technology points for levels" [me]

"What do you mean?"[Bell]

I've achieved stone, sling, and recurved bow. It's a CivII system where number of technologies determines how had it is to research the next thing. I can research either Longbow or Crossbow. Since they cost the same, I research Crossbow (duh). Even if they cost different, I have an unusually strong urge to leapfrog, unless the difference in cost is truly magnificent.

"Could you explain these further? I'm not sure what you mean." [referring to point 34 and different types of scientists]

Instead of saying there is one generic type of scientist who can research anything, I am saying there are 5 generic types of scientists who can research anything in their field of study. It's still a simplification, but it's much more realistic, IMHO. What you are setting when you alter those bars is how you encourage your colleges and universities to train students in to create rough proportions of the number of economists, the number of biologists, etc. trained and the distribution of research money to government favored projects. Each technology is placed into one of the five fields. You research 5 technologies at once, one in each field. In an extremely simply example, I have 100 research points being generated with no bonuses at all. My settings have 30% philosophy, 30% math & physics, 25% psychology, 20% agriculture & biology, and 20% economics. So, my philosophy technology I'm researching gets 30 research points, my math technology gets 30, etc. Now, let's say that I'm suffering from some inefficiency from my recent greater focus on philosophy that hasn't faded away yet (I increased the slider bar there from 25 to 30 at the expense of economics); so, instead of 30 research points, I only get 27. This will fade away eventually, as the next generation of thinkers really does become 30% philosophers.

Now, if only I could find my good old CivII research chart... I have my CivI one, and my CivII instruction manual... where is it?

[the Octopus]

Come on, guys, keep 'em coming! Or at least get in here and criticise .

EnochF, where are these future techs you promised us?


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CIV3-THE MASTER LIST-TECHNOLOGY "THREAD MASTER"

[Ecce Homo]

TECH PRESERVATION
In the existing Civ games, a discovered tech is yours forever. It can never be lost. It is also distributed all over your civ.

My idea:
Scientific techs would havve to be "stored" in a Library or a University.

If a Library/University had remaining "storage space" they would research new techs - if they had got the prerequisites!

Techs would work as trade goods, which would be sent between cities and civs. (Must have a method to reduce microman't.)

Ancient techs like Pottery could be preserved by oral tradition. These would never be lost.

[the Octopus]

How about some Techs and benefits that don't go well together. I never liked the fact that Labor Union gave you Mechanized Infantry, since they are not uniquly related. Any others?


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CIV3-THE MASTER LIST-TECHNOLOGY "THREAD MASTER"

[Druid2]

I've tried to read thru and understand all the lengthy alternative proposals here. And frankly, I'm perplexed.

I would *LOVE* to see a short summary by the alternative authors on this very simple, but crucial subject:

"Why would your proposal be better than the one used in Civ2 or SMAC."

And *PLEASE* dont cite 'more realism.' THis is not a real world sim... it's a game. For realistic research, we'd just have to install a random number generator.. or steal tech s from somebody else.

[Shining1]

Comments:
There needs to be another thread on this - this is in fact the 'tech system' thread, not the technology one. Yin, octopus - sort this out.

The mere fact that Bell's system took such a long post to describe is a concern. I have these points to make:
1) Bell assumes that you can get to different advances by taking different paths. I seriously doubt that this is correct? Even if so, then by how much? In truth, I suspect that to hold the creditibly of the gamer, the alternate paths won't be very different.

2) In addition, the points system seems difficult to easily understand, and is at any rate completely subjective, as in point 1. Who's to say that bronze working is 10% of the way to iron working or 90%?

3) The amount of work required in given each technology a prereq percentage to determine it's relevance to other advances (some of which may also be prereqs to that tech!) is mindboggling. I mean, how much did pottery influence mechanised warfare? Both the algorithm required to handle this and the encyclopaedia entry for the tech are work better spent elsewhere, IMO.

While it's true that the CivII system was simplistic and threw up some major flaws (especially in the late game unit/tech dependancies), on the whole it was pretty good. Simple, mostly true, and logical, with NO maths required and little management other than picking the next tech you needed. Which was often enough of a choice in itself.

Shining1

[the Octopus]

Shining1: I've been trying to encourage people to post "concrete" tech suggestions in addition to these systems. I don't see how a new thread would be any more effective. I think that this thread is percieved by some to be a "tech systems" thread because there are a few posters who have very ambitious ideas, and who tend to write long posts explaining them (e.g. Bell, SnowFire, and to a lesser extent, me). While I know it isn't their intent, this may have intimidated some other posters who have less "grand" ideas.

If anyone has any new ideas for actual techs, please suggest them. We want to hear suggestions like that, too. My suspicion is that there will not be many more new "systems" proposed. Most people will probably be making "small" suggestions. (That isn't to say new systems aren't welcome, I just don't think there will be too many more proposed).

If we continue without some new suggestions (instead of just discussion on systems like Bell's) I may try to figure out a solution (maybe a brief moratorium? I don't know).

As it stands, there is too much desire to split things up in this forum as it is. I don't understand why. I think we should avoid splitting threads whenever possible.

If anybody else agrees with Shining1, please speak up. Unless I hear otherwise, I am going to assume that everybody likes all of their tech suggestions and discussion centered in a single thread like I do.


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CIV3-THE MASTER LIST-TECHNOLOGY "THREAD MASTER"

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Druid2 writes
"Why would your proposal be better than the one used in Civ2 or SMAC."

Because it allows for more variety in gameplay. Right now, techs are just used as a method to move the game forward, there's not a lot of strategy involved in research order or prereqs--you just generate x lightbulbs per turn, and when all your lightbulbs for that tech are filled up, you pick a new tech and make more lightbulbs. The system I'm proposing gives you more flexability in how to approach the tech tree and as such introduces more strategy play into it. And after all, the core of games like Civ is strategy.