Are you sure this is the way to do it?

[Dominique]

Well, CIV3 has been announced and Firaxis told us they'd be listening and interested.

Great.

And now you come up with billions of ideas, more ideas, and even more... to send them about 150 MByte of ideas amonth.

Great.

You really think this will work? He, let's face it: Even only some days after the first announcement, it's pretty hard to have an overview of what's getting posted here - what's more, the ideas contradict each other, aren't feasable with today's technology or are rightout NUTS

DAMN.

So you really think they'd take a dozen people at Firaxis, read through all that (even if all they'd get were filtered and compile lists) and then say "Yes, we will integrate THIS and THIS and..."?

NO WAY.

Remember, doing computer games is about MONEY. Firaxis wouldn't be a successful game company if this were their approach - they want to do exactly ONE thing: Sell large amounts (and add-ons later) of an incredibly successful game. But for this, it's utterly unimportant for them to integrate fascinating quirks and so on someone might come up with; at least unless it's something you can print in big, flaming letters onto the game box and you know that the average "I want a nice computer game for my son"-buyer will be impressed by.

What counts for them, is the question "What will the majority of potential buyers like to see?". "Majority" is the key word here - a simple list of ideas is pretty useless for them as long as they have no clue whether an idea is some smartass' great singular invention or the dream of all people playing computer games.

What they need are polls.

Unfortunately, though, do not look at these forums as a valuable source of information in this respect - people reading and writing here are CIVERS, addicts, freaks, maniacs - and they are NOT the 95% of the people out there who actually pay the money.

I do not want to say this "making a list for Firaxis" is a bad thing - actually, it's fantastic. But do not expect that much from it. For every opinion on any aspect of CIV3, there's another one's opinion stating the exact opposite. For every new feature wished for there are financial reasons NOT to do it.

It all ends up (for Firaxis) in the formula:

"Let's make a game with a GREAT name, having the LEAST costs, played by the MOST people and thus getting the MAXIMUM sales."

And, one last thing: Many peple here seem to have the inclination of stuffing all of the universe into CIV3 - even IF this was possible (i.e. a more or less decent simulation of history), it wouldn't be playable. Just imagine only every 10th idea posted here would be implemented... no way that game still would be playable. Remember that CIV1 was such a breakthrough because of it's degree of abstraction, effectively making it POSSIBLE to manage a (seemingly) very complex world quite simply. Many ideas I read here go exactly the opposite way, adding bells and whistles which in the end would create an unplayable monstrum...


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If somebody asks you "Art thou a god?", you tell him "YES!"

[Stefu]

Quite negative. If Firaxis wouldn't listen to these, why had BR told us to propose these?

Besides, these will serve excellent for any future civ clone creator.

[Dominique]

To clarify: I don't say it's totally useless to post ideas here, I'm just afraid that CIV3 won't be influenced by them as much as most people here seem to think.

As for Firaxis wishing to get the ideas: Can you imagine a BETTER marketing strategy than to create a positive atmosphere among fans right from the beginning? That's espaecially true when so many of us were so upset because of Activision's neglectence.

Clever, clever...

[Robert Plomp]

The threadmasters make smaller lists with keywords of everything. These lists will be putted together, and send to BR.

Firaxis is making a game, a very complex game. They think about new ideas, and maybe our ideas can be used as well. It's an easy way for them of getting good and bad ideas. They use the good ones.

Nothing wrong.

CyberShy

[yin26]

Dominique,

I can appreciate your pessimism. I used to say exactly the same things you did. And then something really fun happened: I had some faith, I e-mailed some problems and ideas to Brian, and you know what? The man answered. He gave me a work-around until the next patch, and he encouraged my ideas. This, in turn, caused me to do a huge patch list for SMAC enhancement 4. After receiving e-mails from Brian and a lead programmer at Firaxis letting me know how many of the fixes and ideas from the list WILL BE implemented in SMAC enhancement 4, I came to a conclusion: I wasted too much time whining when I could have been doing something more productive, like trying to actually work with the company instead of against it.

Now, I'm not saying you're whining. I understand your perspective perfectly. But Brian has a documented history of listening to gamer's ideas--were you there in the early days of SMAC's development? Do you read his personal invitation for us to make this list so he could put it by his computer while he codes? Why would he do that if he has no intention of using the list? According to your theory, he doesn't have to, so why waste his and our time?

The fact is, the man is serious about our input.

And the entire reason we are sending this list BEFORE anything is decided about Civ3 should be obvious: As more and more things are decided by FIRAXIS, our input logistically becomes less and less relevant or feasible. So, I think you are looking at this entirely the wrong way as far as that goes.

Not a single person here as far as I know thinks that this list will be taken in its entirety by the FIRAXIS team and crammed into one game. You are only watching (and essentially trying to shoot down) a brain-storming session. The final list that Brian gets will be much more refined and focussed. And if even one or two out of 1,000 of our ideas gets taken into account, that's one or two really good reasons for real fans--not mommies buying the game cold off the shelf--to buy the game.

Finally, polls are utterly useless. They are flat representations of an easily manipulated mathematical tabulation. I can click a button 1000 times, can't you?

At the end of this list will follow the name of everybody who gave an idea or a question. This list of credits will run well past 100 gamers--gamers who took the time to share their thoughts on the game and help work through the very tedious process of taking ideas from all directions and making it into a coherent vision of what we'd like to see. Can Brian afford to ignore it?

Brian is a very clever man--a very clever businessman as well. And it is precisely for that reason, and because this list will be done properly, that we will make a difference in Civ3.

And I hope you join us on this long road to a much better game.

Yin



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CIV3 DEVELOPMENT LIST COORDINATOR

**(un)Officially Making Lists for Firaxis Since SMAC Enhancement 3!**

[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited May 21, 1999).]

[zaz]

Yes, this is the way.

See thread in this forum started by Brain Reynolds of FIRAXIS!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Dominique I understand your fears, but I must disagree. If you were in the SMAC forums you'd see. Borders weren't even going to be put into the game, until it was brought up on the forums, and BR went and put borders in (one of the best parts of SMAC, IMHO). They do listen. They may not put everything in, but they will put some ideas in. That I am confident of!

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Imran Siddiqui
Moderator SG Forums - www.sidgames.com/forums/ ,

"Sir, I would rather be right than be President."

-Henry Clay

[Trachmyr]

I helped submitt many ideas to Heroes of Might and Magic III, using a list much more confusing than these threads. I have to say that a sizable portion of ideas (and a few of mine) were implemented. Oh, and BTW the game was rated 100% by Gamespot.

I know for a fact that designers do listen to the "fanatics", and listen quite well indeed.

[yin26]

Dominique,

I'm actually very glad you posted this thread, in fact, because it helps to keep us focussed on the "reality" awaiting us once we send the list. I appreciate it, and I'm sure many people have the same concerns. Maybe you should be Thread Master of the thread:

REASONS THIS LIST WON'T WORK: Hosted by Dominique

I'm kidding, of course, but I do think your thread is a healthy place for people to vent their concerns about the best way to deal with this list. I hope you keep hanging around here, if for no other reason than to keep us honest (in a constructive way, of course ).

I should clarify, as JT asked:

A week or so before we send this list at the end of June, we will enter a voting phase in all threads and then finally a voting phase for the list itself. The idea is not to eliminate ideas necessarily but help prioritize, eliminate repeated ideas, admit to ourselves that some things will be impossible to implement, take out some of the LONG LONG explanations and make them concise, and so forth. Sending the list without going through that phase would be a BIG mistake, as Dominique has reminded us well.

I can't wait for that phase to begin! Of course, the time will come when decisions will just have to be made. If we can't reach a majority decision on some issues, I will act as Moderator. But I truly think these issues can all be decided among us--yes, it is harder to do it that way: But it is vital this list be The Gamer's Vision and not just some wacky ideas by a few freaks.

[JT]

Okay, good, I was right. We will "edit" the list before we mail it.

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-Civ3 Thread Master of OTHER and UNITS.
"We get the paperwork, you get the game!"

[Dominique]

Yin,

I definitely hope you are right - it's just seeing all those ideas which definitely CAN'T be in the same game that makes me worry. If I were at Firaxis, I'd need some means of quantitative measurement in the sense of "is this just one fool's crazy idea or do many people wish that feature seriously?".

That's my point.

Having certain questions and getting workarounds for specific problems is one thing - but as some poster here put it (and I think he nailed the problem): "I want CIV3 to do my tax form, too". That's it. People behave like CIV3 ought to do the cooking, look after your children and be the be-all, end-all game. It won't be.

And personally, I definitely do NOT want to get a CIV3 which is brimming of new, fancy features, but lacks an easy-to-use interface like even CIV1 had.

It would be a tough task for you and the threadmasters to compile not only a list, but a WEIGHTED list, which IMHO is what Firaxis really needs.

[Depp]

It doesn´t matter how many think this and that. The point by this is giving ideas to fireaxis that they have not thought of before. Then they chose to implement it or they don´t.
I think they evaluate an idea based on how good it sounds, not how many people have their name behind it. At least i hope they do.

[willko]

as yin stated earlier somewhere else, who is the person who should decided what gets weighted, and how? yin? the threadmasters? as it stands, they should only be editing the content when it would be utterly ridiculous for firaxis to implement ("yeah, i'd like an email applet within the game so i can keep up with messages while i play"), or when they can summarize posts that are too verbose (like most of my serious posts). but some things that may seem "impossible" or "unfeasible" may be the "innovations" that makes civ3 revolutionary rather than simply evolutionary.

if the man is willing to listen, i say more power to the consumer on the internet who is willing to speak up.

/will.

[JT]

The way I understand it, from the way Yin announced it back in the first Civ3 Forum, we will gather up all the ideas a few days before we E-Mail. Then, everyone gets to vote on what we put into the E-Mail and what we don't. This way, we get what the majority wants to BR. Yin, please tell me if I'm wrong.

[Dominique]

Yin,

thx for the clarification - you are right, I wouldn't like to be the threadmaster of a negative thread. In fact, I DO HOPE all this works in a way we in the end will be satisfied with.

However, you have seen that I'm involved in that Clash of Civilizations project and if I have learned ANYTHING about game design in the past it's that it's easy to get into an outright chaos and a large collection of loose ends even WITHOUT some enthusiastic fans throwing in their bits

In the end, I see the most positive aspect of this special forum in giving the people at Firaxis some help in deciding what features to include - not in the sense of "He, Brian, read that - me must DO that!" but more in a "well, we have those two options, and the list from the forum shows most people would favor option 2" style.

Wish you luck and success

[J.DeMobray]

A more interesting question for Firaxis and for everyone here, I think, would be: Why do this?

Clearly the public wants Civ III, but do we really want a game that could "do our taxes too"?

Civilization is one of the best selling and most highly regarded computer games in history. It created an entire genre of games, the Wolfenstein 3D of "god" games, if you will. Master of Magic, CTP, Ascendency, Master of Orion, SMAC and Deadlock, just to name a few, probably owe their existence to Civ's success. How many of those games, however, have had even close to the success of the game they sought to emulate and "improve" upon?

Most of the ideas being posted in the threads have been tried to in some way, in some game. Ignoring the novelty factor of a new game, how many long enjoyable sessions of Lords of Magic has anyone played? Civ II isn't broken. If it was released again, today as a new game it would still experience the same kind of phenomenal success.

The changes made between Civ and Civ II were minor at best. I'm all for improving graphics, changing the effects of the Wonders and even adding a few more types of government, units, etc. But the sort of wholesale rewriting being suggested here leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.

I have a guilty admission to make. I own all the games I mentioned earlier and quite a few other Civ clones. To some extent, I have enjoyed them all; but I have never gone back to them the way I do to Civ.

I urge all of the posters, and Firaxis especially to use moderation in altering Sid's masterpiece. Ask yourself, how many times would I play this "new" game? Seven years later would this still be on my hard drive? I'm not against change, I just hope that the changes that are made are universally accepted as improving the game.