CITY IMPROVEMENTS (ver1.0): Hosted by CyberShy

[HarryKattz]

Television

In my opinion, television should be a tech advance(Mass Media) instead of an improvement. Televisions are household commodity items. The real city improvement involved would be the transmitter.

I've gotten the impression that the CTP people over at Activision didn't think things out

[HarryKattz]

Perhaps we should ask Firaxis to include a...
Transmitter

Benefit: Makes two citizens content(by distraction). With the advent of Mass Media(Electronics if Mass Media not in game) provides one additional gold for every two citizens(advertising).
Requires: Radio
Cost: 120 shields
Maint: 2 gold



[This message has been edited by HarryKattz (edited May 23, 1999).]

[HarryKattz]

The Internet as a wonder just doesn't seem right to me. Wonders are localized, that's against the whole point of the Internet.

I would prefer the addition of a city improvement called the ISP.

So, maybe we should ask Firaxis to include a...
ISP

Benefit: Plus 20% science in city. Plus 2 science for every other city with an ISP, including cities in other civs.
Requires: Computer
Cost: 160 shields
Maint: 3 gold

Yep, helps your opponents too. Forces some tech leveling towards end of game.

[HarryKattz]

Ages

Chopping up the game by ages is a truely vile and pernicious idea!

If this feature is implemented, I will NOT buy CivIII!

In what thread is this travesty being disgust, er, discussed? I'll go over there and raise high hurricane HELL!

[Robert Plomp]

In reply to snowfire

I hope you know the difference between a churge and a mosque ? A moslim country should build a mosque, where a christian country should build a church. Maybe kinda the same profits, but it's weird to build a cathedral in a moslim country.

That's what I tried to say.

[Blue Moose]

I agree with Mark Everson that the number of improvements should be reduced, instead I would suggest a system as follows: A city can select the percentage of its resources that go into each area (e.g. science, money, happiness, ect.). New technologies(e.g. Banking, Scientific Thought, ect) would increase the effect that the same amount of resources have, perhaps with a temporary decrease to simulate improving the current facilities. This would allow more realistic cities, instead of cities that do everything, you would have a science city, with alot of research, a industrial city with a high production, ect. It would also be easier to manage. Any comments would be appreciated.


------------------
May reason keep you,

Blue Moose

[Ralph]

I definitely DONT like the idea with multiple granaries or research-labs and so on. Its way to complicated both for Firaxis to implement, and for the average (non-hardcore Civ-player) to enjoy playing.

Add a few new concepts like for example the health-factor: Doctors house –Pharmacy – Hospital. Add ideas like; Granary gets obsolete – build Silo instead. But as a whole: keep things just as simple and straightforward as in CIV-2.

I dont agree with Mark everson and Blue Moose that the number of improvements should actually be REDUCED – but on the other hand: there are limits. Some of the SMAC base-improvements feels unnecessary.
I also dont like multi-boosting improvements which boost both energy AND research, or both research AND happiness. Keep things simple.
Part of the fun in building city-improvements in CIV-2 was that i always had an exact overview what each and every improvement added to the overall picture. If we start to mess things up with “multiple-“ and “multi-boost” city-improvements, that exact overview easily gets lost.

[Kropotkin]

I don't like the idea that a improvement just gets obsolete over night, it might have worked for hundreds of years and then one that you can't use it anymore. i would change it so a improvement wouldn't get totally useless after it has become obolete but lose, lets say half of its effect, so if a libary gives for example a +50% in scienceproduction (just example not a idea what the libary should do) and when it becomes obsolete it will only give a +25% increase. When you build a reseachlab the libary will disapear and the lab will mean a +75% increase in scienceproduction. there could be a future discovery that makes all libaries that are left totally oboslete (maybe).

This way a country that is poor and can't build all the new improvements wouldn't be punished when it steals or in any other way gets new discoveries form other civ's.

[Trachmyr]

Removing the emphassis on cities
The position of CIV,CtP,SMAC, and other games of this genere, is that the CITY is the center of society, and the primary focus.

Instead, I counter, that it is the network of all human populaces, all structures (mines. roads, barracks, factories, ect.), and how they interact that decide if a nation is to succede or fail.

Regions
Regions, by their definition, is the combined character of a geographical location. To represent this, regions must be added to CIV3.
Various methods of creating regions has been discussed in other threads. I prefer computer generated, fixed regions. These would conform to terrain and natural boundries (rivers, mountains, Ocean). Regions would also have a maxinum size.
I do not believe that fixed regions would subtract from the game, since real-life regions have remained the same thoughout history, though their names have been changed, and they have been contested.
Regions would form the primary borders of a society, contested regions would have interior borders similar to SMAC.

Habitation and Population
Before cities were constructed, people were nomadic... or semi-nomadic. This needs to be represented in CIV3. My suggestion would be to treat NOMADIC POPULATIONS as a mobile city, but not "improvable".
Eventually settlements were built, which grew into towns, which grew into cities.
I believe settlements should be reprented with evolving grapichs which expand to additional tiles as the settlement expands.

The concept of city improvements is simply an abstract for the implementaion of new technology within a city. I believe CIV gamers can handle a more realistic aproach to city development:
1) Technology implementation- When new technology which can benifit a settlement (let's say an Aqueduct) is discovered, that tech must first be implemented. This cost revenue (an alternative name for GOLD), and is based upon the size of a city (It is harder to incorporate new tech into larger, more stable cities). This expenditure reprensts the cost of materials, the cost to educate engineers, and incentives to implement the technology. Once the technology is implemented, it provides it's benefits to the settlement (in this case a reduction in negative health modifiers due to overcrowding and allowing larger cities). Technology may be implemented on a city, regional or national level to reduce micromanegement.

2) City improvement. A city has many diffrent aeras in which to improve... Housing, Industry, Economy, Recreation and so on. I suggest abstract level to each aera. Thus a city with a level 4 Indusstry typically can produdue more than one with a Level 3 Industry. Improvement require Public Works, similar to CtP. To increase in an aera, a certain number of PW must be spent. Like-wise any nessacary tech must have been implemented. (In our example above, an aqueduct will allow habitation Level 4 & 5 to be reached. If the city was at Habitation 3, it would need x amount of public works to reach 4 now that Aqueducts have been implemented.)
Settlements improve semi-automatically... they only use PW to improve a level if that aera is becoming inefficient due to # of people using it. (# of factory workers for Industry, total population for Habitation). As inefficency rises, a larger percent of available PW will be used to enhance that aera. You may also set Priority numbers to the diffrent aeras. This allows a more "hands-off" approach and highly reduced micromanement (you simply choose what percent of PW to enhance the city, priorities are optional, the computer does the rest based upon your population and workforce). As city level in these aeras increase, the settlement will expand to empty tiles, become denser or expand upwards. If you run out of room, you city will stagnate.

Workforce
Your workforce is handled on a city or regional basis, depending on your "National Goverment Level" (Independant/Regional/Federal).

Workforce determines not only what you produce/build but how your cities develop as well (A city lith Level 8 Industry due to a lot of factory workers is much different than a city with Level 8 religion due to lots of clergy. Detroit vs. the Vatican)

All other projects utilize PW, from mines to roads to Wonders(which appear on the map)

The result will be a highly graphical representation of you NATION, not just cities. Also Micromanement of city improvement is eased, to allow for more detailed workforce, supply and economy.

One final note, tiles should be reduced in size to allow this to be effective. I suggest 1/4 size at maxinum.

[wheathin]

Several ideas of mine:

1. I think there should be an intermediate class of things to build between improvements and wonders. Large things that would affect a whole civ, which are built in only one city, but which each civ could build (i.e. each civ could build a space program, or each could build a truly massive hydro dam, etc...)

2. New improvements:
Money: Medieval Fairs
Production: forge, textile mill/loom
Overcrowding: suburbs, highways,
Science: public schools
happiness: parks, circus
Food: see below; also a futuristic Gene Bank for both better genetic medicine, but also a more robust and productive food supply.

3. Population growth is affected not only by available food, but also by birth rates and death rates. Thus, there should be improvements that reflect this. At the least, things such as the Aqueduct, Drug Store/Pharmacy, and Hospital in CtP should have a large effect on maximum city size, an effect that could be generated by having them result in increased food (paradoxical in that more old people would eat *more* food, but it is as close a representation as we can get).

4. Upgradable Improvements:

We want realistic ancient improvements. We want to build new imrpovements late in the game. We want to reward players who build them. But, we don't want a zillion improvements to be endlessly clicking on, because then the micromanagement is crzy, and cities founded late in the game can never be maxed out. We don't want our old improvements goign obsolete after we invested so much in them. Summary: we want a lot, but not a lot.

Answer 1: allow upgrades, with the existing improvement counting for 50% of the cost of the new improvement (or whatever).

My Answer 2: 4-part solution.

a. decreasing costs for improvements - as the game progresses, while established cities have much higher production levels, newly founded cities take forever to get up to speed. If the costs dropped each era, (maybe with a multiplier, and each imp has an "era" variable) it'd be easierfor your cities founded in the 1800's (like most of America) to be worthwhile before 2100.

b. Rollover on the build queue - production that's leftover is applied to the next item built... important with:

c. Allow multiple builds in one turn - so these cheap but needed imps can be finished quickly.

d. "Packages" of cheap imps for later in the game, all built one after another. (In effect, readymade queues of items) Thus, by the modern era, an "ancient package" might include Granary, Marketplace, Church, Courthouse, Colisseum, Aqueduct, Sewer, Library, Public School, and Barracks. By selecting this single "package item" in the build queue, a newly founded city could build all the ancient imps in 2-4 short turns, thus saving a player lots of needless clicks and micromanagement, and time.

wheathin

[Robert Plomp]

I've updated the 'main-posting' at the top of this thread.

All postings above THIS one are included now in the main-thread. If you disagree with the way I've reflected your ideas, please mail me at rplomp@bart.nl

Trachmyr, your last post hasn't been included, since I feel like this are more topics that belong in other threads. mail me if you disagree.

CyberShy
thread-'head' of the City Improvements thread

[Sieve Too]

How about an upgrade to a familiar old friend: Police Station. Reduces enemy Spy effectiveness by 50% along with its current ability.

I want to disagree with those thinking that there should be fewer improvements. Nonesense! Those who want to be perfectionists should not be shortchanged. Rest assured, the warmongers will be proposing, and getting, new and exotic means of waging war.

[CormacMacArt]

What!?!? I have to build a Pharmacy now? What happened to CVS? Its bad enough that I have to build a factory and a manufacturing plant. I would like to be able to contract a CORPORATION to build my units, let the religions build their places of worship (Temples don't work anymore? What about Synagoges and the new Temple that will be built in Jerusalem?) and leave me the task of keeping the city safe, clean and happy.

[Bird]

MarkE: a little late, perhaps, but no flame intended here. I disagree that we need fewer, rather than more, city improvements. Yes, micromanaging can be a real pain, but not everyone plays an expansionist, warmonger type game every time. When playing 1 city or "few" city AC games, micromanaging is half the fun.

General comment: That's not to say we need dozens of new improvements, however. IMO, the first goal should be to improve what we have, and then add those improvements that will have a real affect on people's strategies. It is difficult to assess which proposed improvements will have strategic value without knowing the general construct of the new game. Do we want more turns, different ways to win, inherent advantages attributable to each civ that might be mirrored by other civs only through building a certain new improvement, etc? Don't get me wrong, I'm not even remotely suggesting this is not a worthwhile exercise. I love a lot of the ideas here, but context is missing.

Sorry for that last paragraph. After I leave here I'll try to find a thread where it might be more on point.

As to city walls, the lack of realism cannot be disputed, particularly as to defense. But if you make them obsolete, you either have to have an improvement to replace them (military/national guard base?), create a new unit that has special defense capabilities within city confines, or otherwise give existing units some additional defense capabilities within city confines. If not, in the context of the current game, cities will be completely indefensible and game balance will be destroyed.

Sieve Too makes an excellent point. There should be something a city can do to affect espionage. Personally, I really like the idea proposed by Mo on the Units thread, but if that boat don't float then there should be an improvement that will accomplish this. IMO, since police stations already serve a purpose, this is a good reason to add a new improvement (Intelligence Office?).

Enough for now.

[SnowFire]

"I hope you know the difference between a churge and a mosque ? A moslim country should build a mosque, where a christian country should build a church. Maybe kinda the same profits, but it's weird to build a cathedral in a moslim country."

Sigh... I tried to say this before. It's in the older Civ manuals too. The cathedral is represenative of whatever culture it is in right now. I'm not saying that the Arabs will build a Gothic cathedral; for them, yes, it'd be a mosque! My dad lived for one and a half years in Iran, and for a time in Saudi Arabia too, so I most certainly know what a mosque is, and am offended at your accusation. In fact, read my older post again. You said "Muslim nations will never be allowed to build churches." I responded "What the? Ever heard of a mosque?," as in the church you build represents a mosque when you play as the Arabs. I think what you're refering to is the ability for different cultures to rename structures to different names; that sounds something more for the scenario editing thread than here. For all intents and purposes, let's not confuse the newcomers with a different set of identical buildings for every culture.

I might add that, though it's totally unneccesary since Octopus has that PERL script to take everyone's name down who contributed, I've made no less than 3 posts in this thread so far now. Is that enough to "count?" {/sarcasm} Sorry if I offend anyone, but... ah, never mind.

Getting back to topic... I like the "decreasing cost of improvements" idea... in the modern era, that courthouse would not have to wait for twenty years to be built in that new town.

Harry: Perhaps a better idea... simply put some code in that changes "Colloseum" to "Theme Park" in the modern age.

[Travathian]

New City Improvement:

Bomb Shelter

Protects citizens from artiliery attacks, missle attacks, and bombing runs from aircraft. Prevents the city from going down in population from these attacks.

[Isle]

In the UNITS-thread the notion of a unit-workshop has come up, and a number of chassis has been mentioned. There among could be a stationary one, a weapon so big it cant be moved, a big catapult or big gun.

If a unit-workshop is included, it might therefore be posible to design city-improvements in it.
Ofcouse there would be an option to deactive it, in which case only the standard improvements/units would be available, like the city wall, fort and fortress from civ2.
But if it was active you could design your own city-improvements, to be used in the city's defense, this could be anything like thicker city walls, or maned walls that actually fought back if attacked.

So summary:
Suggested city improvement: Stationary units (Possibly custom-designed).

[Isle]

BTW. Someone mentioned fewer city improvements. Shame on those infidels!!

Sure, with more city improvement it will be more difficult to figure out what would best, or how to get them all. But, with more improvement the difference between the best and the second best would be lesser, and therefore you would have to worry less. And why on earth do you want all improvements in one city, unless you are pedantric or notorious. Having those kind of funny ideas would only make your empire weaker, and I really hope the AI in civ3 will be good enough to make it impossible to concentrate on anything but winning the game.

[NotLikeTea]

I would like to see more governance type improvements, and less general type.

Why should I, as president/emperor/king build a shopping mall? Or a pharmacy?

I like the idea of having the religions themselves build the churches. Perhaps this should be entirely out of our control, perhaps even doing away with these alltogether.

As governer, we should be building the millitary structures (city walls, baraks, etc), public services (grainaries, aquaducts, etc) and that's pretty well it. Other improvements should be controled only second hand, by influencing religions, city planners, etc.

[Depp]

Stationary Units? I second that motion!

[Freddz]

Later in the game:

SECURITY STATIONS(automatic genetic and/or fingerprint identification when accessing city areas/buildings everywhere): automatically "detects" spies within city limits and may have a chance of making them fail. Spies may later gain an ability to have a chance to be hidden from security stations and decrease their fail chances.

[Freddz]

Stationary long range units as a land improvement would be cool: a unit that fire automatically when hostile units approaches.

[Robert Plomp]

<center><h4>THIS THREAD IS CLOSED !!!!!</h>

The City Improvements-discussion continues at the 'new' thread, that you can visit right <a href = "http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000084.html">HERE</a>

Messages that will be posted UNDER this posting will be ignored by the City Improvements Thread-'head' (me)

CyberShy
Thread-'head' of the City Improvements Discussion