SOCIAL ENGINEERING/GOVERNMENT (ver1.1): Hosted by Bell

[Cartagia the Great]

Here are a few of my ideas on government and other social things:

Governments: I believe that a good list of governments would be as such:

Tribal
City-State
Monarchy
Feudalism
Republic
Democracy
Communism
Theocracy
Dictatorship
Facism

In the beginning of the game you would get the choice to start off as either a Tribal, or City State government. Each of these governments would have seperate advantages and disadvantages which would help you in the game. Also, depending on the one you choose, the tech tree might be some what differant, allowing you not to access certian technologies.

A tribal government would have eithre no, or very very light, boundries, but might have a food bonus, as well as less discord, and such.

City State would have more dicord and more corruption(trade is difficult between differant cities like that), however would make more money and have better science

Feudalism would have a cut science rate, less happiness, but less corruption, and they could produce the Feudalism only unit: Knights

Theocracy and Fundementalism's affects would depend on how big of a part of the game religion will make up. if it goes along msot of the segestions around here, they would procude more money and production, could only supprot one religion ,and would percute all others, have strained relatiosn with nations of other religions, and such

Almost every government would have government only units such as Fascist stormtroopers and the like. Theocracies would have missionaries which would spread the choice religion faster than it would under normal circumstances.

Now for the idea of ethniticity. Let me say that I agree with the ideas as long as it does not get to complexe. If Fixar listens to our ideas, that can be the only real threat to the game, that it will become far to complexe. But here is my general idea for it

When a city is taken it would suffer from a period of unrest, and reduced efficency. This would also stop the type of game play where one completely finaces a war agaisnt the enemy, with cities taken from the enemy.

After this time runs out they would become a normal city, with normal production and such. However, they would not forget which civilization they came from. If you took the city from the Celts, the people would not forget that they are Celtic, for a very very long time. It might take hundres of turns for them to be complete assimulated, depending on the period the game is in. This population might try to rebell and rejoin the other civilization if it still exists, begging them to take them back. Or, if the civilization is destroyed, they may attept to rebell and recreate their old nation.

Now there would be ways to combat this, of course. For instance, you could flood the city with your own settlers until your population over weighs their population, lessening the chance. Or you could try to force the ethnic group to split up and deport them to differant cities, once again lessening their power. this would also speed up the tiem of assimulation.

Now the question of slavery comes up. I actually find it to be a good part of CTP, and enjoy it. I know it's a controvercial topic, but it is a realistic factor in the game, and if doen right it can help a great deal. I think there should be a few ways to gain slaves in the game.

First of all, in the ancient phase, when you defeat an enemy unit there shoudl be an off chance that you capture a few as slaves, and send them to a city. Also you shoudl be able to have a slaver unit which acts in much the same way as the CTP unit. Finally, when you capture an enemy civilization you could choose to convert part of the cities population into slaves, and disperce them throughout the Empire, or you could enslave a nationalist group inside your out boundries, another reason for having the computer rembre the ethnics of the cities.

that is how you gain slaves, how would they play? First of all, the advantages would be that you feed them less, and theyt are more productive. However, there is that chance of rebellion much as in CTP. Now, here is where the ethniticity becomes important, slaves would NOT be assimualted into the empire, and would not lose their heritage. Because of this there would always be the chance for amn ethnic revolt in a city, even cities which were not conquered from the people, but places they were deported to. Finally, you could free the salves, in which point they would become like any other ethnic citizen of your nation, but it would cause soem unhappiness, and be costly if you do so.

[Shining1]

Mentioned in the City Menu thread, and definitely relevant here, was the suggestion that city improvements and social engineering function together, instead of the current setup whereby they each have different effects.

For instance, the Social Engineering setting 'Knowledge' increases the amount of research generated in ALL cities. Building a library in any one city will add say +5 to that city's knowledge level (with each level being a jump of say 10% on basic output).

Each city, therefore, has its own social engineering readout.

The same for industry, and Economy (cash only). Other improvements can affect morale, happiness, etc.

The only suggestion I can add is that social engineering effects INCREASE the output of a city, rather than diminishing the required ammount of minerals or food (which lead to some phenomenally tacky cheats in SMAC).

I think this is definitely the best way to handle the whole social engineering setup, while making base management more intuitive.

Shining1

[Stefu]

Goverments:

Absolutist: There is one person in top of state, and he has absolute power.
Feudalism: There is one power in top, but he divides some of his power to be used by nobles.
Democratic: Leader is elected by people, and there are other institutions to counter his power.
Totalitarian: There is one party leading the nation, usually with strong ruler. Modern version of Absolutism.
Virtual: There is no leader, as population decides every matter by common vote. Futuristic system.

Economics:

Mercantile: Trade is run by guilds and families. Normal model.
Slaveocratic: Special version of mercantilism, which allows the use of slavery.
Capitalistic: Trade is run by companies and corporations.
Communistic: Trade is run by goverment.
Global: Trade is run by corporations, but regulated by common worldwide network of nations. Futuristic system.

[korn469]

ok what defines a government?

governments are the body of people and institutions that make and enforce laws for a society

ok i'm going to define a democracy in terms of my government book

all democracies have these properties

popular sovereignty: the ultimate power to make decisions is vested in all the people and not some or just one of them

political equality: each citizen has the same opportunity as every other citizen to participate in the decision making process

popular consultation: government officials seek out which public policies the people want and then they put those policies into effect even if they don't agree with them

so if you are a democracy you will have those properties

[korn469]

civil rights

Protections of Belief and Expression

Religious worship
Speech
Press
personal privacy
preservation of subcultures

Protections of Action

Assembly
Petition
Voting & Secret Ballot
Prohibition of slavery
practice of choosen profession
free movement within out of nation
property rights
collective bargaining
strikes

Protection of People Accused of Crimes

No bills of attainder
No ex post facto laws
Not guilty by association
No unreasonable searches and seizures
No trial with indictment
No double jeopardy
No forced confessions
No excessive bail or fines
No cruel or unusual punishment
No extradition for polictical crimes
No capital punishmeant
No imprisonment for debt
Due process of law
Equal protection under law
Guarantee of Writ of habeas corpus
Speedy public trial
Trial by impartial jury
Ability to confront hostile witnesses
Subpoena power for defendant
Assistance of counsel

Protection of Property

Compensation for property taken by government
Integrity of contracts
Respect for Intellectual property rights

Social Protection

Prohibition of child labor
Protections of families, children, motherhood
Equal pay for equal work
Minimum wages
Maximum hours
education
healthcare and social assistance

[korn469]

ok here are some of my sugestions

instead of having one government choice or one economic choice or one values choice maybe each area should have sliders and yes/no boxes in it. let me elaborate

ok under governments you have some yes no catorgories like
does your nation have a parliment(congress)? if your nation does have a parilment then the congress can make laws and this makes the people hppier but it decreases the personal power your leader has

also there would be slider bars...
like say you wanted your society to have a high degree of property rights, there would be a slider for this.

sorry it's late and i'm tired i'll try to elaborate on my thought later

[NotLikeTea]

I'm opposed to sliders, unless they are very few in number.

Why? Because sliders lead to tweaking. If you have a number of yes/no toggles, you have certain number of possibilities. Quite high, but reasonable.

Now, if we have a lot of sligers, suppose there are 100 choices per slider (1%, 2%, 3%, etc) Now the number of possible choices shoots through the roof.

Choices are good, right? Yes and no. Broad choices are nice, and a large number make the game interesting. But if having slider A at 56% and slider B at 72% is the optimal condition, think of all the tweaking that would be required. Urngh... the game would drown in spreadsheet work. All games are, essentially, spreadsheets at their core, but the purpose is to not make the player think this. If a design decision would lead to players computing things to find optimal conditions, it is not a good idea.

Here are some ideas for some various "laws" you could implement. These wiuld be other options you could choose at the SE screen.

Legalize Birth Control: +1 Happy -1 Growth, can be done after discovery of contraception

Legalize Drugs: +2 Happy, -1 research, -1 morale, can be done after discovery of medicine.

Get tough on Crime: +1 Police, would cost a certain amount of gold per turn. Can be done after some later game technology, would be similar to USA crackdown on crime after Republican Revolution.

Institute Welfare: -1 economy, +1 happiness.

Nationalize health care: -1 Economy, +1 happiness.

Force some citizens to be expiremented on for scientific tesets: -1 Happiness, +1 research

Ban Child Labor: -1 Industry, +1 Research

Freedom of Information: -1 Probe, +1 Research

Ethnic Cleansing: An ethnicity in your empire is killed or flees to other civ, +1 happy, major atrocity.

Free University: +1 research, would cost certain amount of gold.

Place envirometnal saveguards: +1 planet, -1 economy.

[Harel]

Harel's list of army ideas .
Inorder to further my idea ( which might even turn up on Bell list, if he will take the time to do so ), I have once again ( now, now, no crying ) complied my full list of possible army modifications. Since "Future sociey" ofcourse is cut off the game, a worthy fourth change bar is needed, and "Army" is just what is called for.

1. Civlian milita

Requires: Default selection.
Cost: 25%.
Support: 100%.
Status: Green, twice the time to upgrade level, -20% morale.
Social: 1 un-happy citizen.
Special:
* only build infantry units.
* can only build at war.
* units are distamtled at peace.
* can't reduce un-rest.

2. Reserve army
Requires: Citizen watch.
Cost: 150%.
Support: 25%.
Status: Normal, +10% morale.
Social: 1 less unhappy citizen.
Special:
* Units are always fortified.
* May only move units when in war.

3. Volunteer army
Requires: Democracy
Cost: 125%
Support: 150%
Status: Normal, -10% morale.
Social: 1 happy citizen.
Special:
* Cause no unrest in democracy.
* Twice effctive in reducing un-rest.

4. Reqruietment army
Requires: The republic.
cost: 100%.
Support: 125%
Status: Normal, +20% morale.
Social: 1 unhappy citizen.
Special:
* Cause half unrest in democracy.
* +50% effective in reducing un-rest.

5. Mercenry army
requires: Trace.
Cost: 200%
Support: 175%.
Status: Veteran, +30% morale.
Social: normal.
Special:
* Pay no un-keep when not at wars.
* Can't reduce un-rest.
* Lose control on units when city revolts.

6. The people army
Requires: Dictatorship.
Cost: 75%.
Support: 50%.
Status: Normal, -30% morale.
Social: 2 unhappy citizens.
Special:
* Cause twice un-rest in democracy.

7. Brain-wahsed army.
Requires: Mass-media, sub-liminal control.
Cost: 250%.
Support: 75%.
Status: May not upgrade in levels, +50% morale.
Socail: 3 unhappy citizens.
Specail:
* Units elimnate unrest.
* Always remine loyal ( even revolts, spying, etc. ).

[SnowFire]

Cartagia: Those are combined Government-Economic systems. Let's keep the economy and the government seperated, like in SMAC.

Harel: The problem with your groups is that any democracy will simply use the requirement army everytime. Plus, mercenaries demand payment even in peacetime. It's true. Furthermore, if you stop paying them, they don't magically dissapper; they become neutral and look for another bidder. Which, if you're rating with the elites is low, might be rebels within your own government. Or they might walk over to your hated enemies camp and offer their services. Of course, other mercenary armies (perhaps produced by minor nations like the Swiss) could offer their services to you as well. And no one, under your system, will want "The People's army." If you want to emphasize numbers, than drastically reduce the cost so you can build more.

[NotLikeTea]

The "People's Army" should somehow be more popular during a time of governmental change, rather than in the status quo.

In China, soldiers of the government army quit and joined the People's Liberation Army in droves, because they believed it represented their beliefs, and because it was generally more polite. Later on, in peacetime when it was a tool of the government, the reputation of the army went down.

(PS: All my knowledge of the Chinese revolution comes from a grade 11 history project. Accuracy is not guaranteed. )

[Daniel Bistman]

DEMOGRAPHY/ECONOMICAL STRUCTURE:

Introduction: Im an student of economics and I think, as the friends in this topic, that there are some things that must be changed, i've taken a day to design my idea, i'll try to be clear in my explanation, I wish the guy that initiate to read this do it till the end. (excuse me for my bad english)

POPULATION:First of all, cities must look in a real size (more or less) proportionally to its population maybe ocupying 2 or 3 tiles (hexagonal and smaller) expanding its economical influence as well.

In my games i always tryed to reach the United States population (260M) or Brazilian (180M), in my dreams i tried the China's or Indian's, but its impossible. Even the Civ world can't ever reach the real world population. That's because a country have not 40 or 70 cities, they have a thousand!. So I propose that when you create a city and your economy grows, other towns should born proportionally, aroun the cities and near the roads. But you don't manage them! they don't even count on the economy, they should be just seen on the map and count for the "population census". Those towns should grow but will remain always small. Idea: between two farm tiles a town can be seen.

A BIG MISTAKE: In civilization you can't have big metropolis, bigger metropolis are less productive, that's an error! They maybe forgot that was in the "industrial revolution" that the cities suffered a population boom. So, I think that cities must grow independent of is food production, so food production should be automaticly distributed between cities (not by micromanaged caravans but automaticly, or else can be entablished a food distribution like in MOO where you construct freighter fleets that make the work automatily, if there's freighters scarcity there's food scarcity in the cities that don't produce enough)
It means that city growth will not take place when the food deposits are full(?) but by birth and immigration.


NEW ECONOMY/FOOD&PRODUCTION:

OBJETIVES: -Not too see bigger cities less productives.
-real effects: >population = >production

food production--> automaticly distributes (if tecnology avaiable)
surplus---> 1)consumed for > birth rates
2)stored for future charestty

raw materials (not shields): mines and normal tiles give "raw materials", the "workforce" convert them on production.

raw materials---> no stored--> distributed between the cities (if tecnology avaiable)

With ADVANCED NAVIGATION "frigates"---> investiments on "virtual" transporters, food&raw materials are automaticly distributed between the sea and rivers.

With INDUSTRIALIZATION-->food&raw materials
are virtually distributed between cities connected by railroads.

Workforce produce with raw materials:
factories=+30% workforce efficiency.

EFFECTS:
1)At the early beggining: more balanced because production=population
population=by birth (not by food)
eliminates the benefit (or not) of random tiles quality at the beggining.
2)Demographic real effects: demografic boom in industrialism, production boom in industrailized cities.
3) can generate bigger metropolis with more production (not with less)


ADDITIONAL IDEAS:
IMMIGRATION: it would be an interesting detail to include immigration between the cities inside an empire, a city with a factry near another without one atracts immigration.

Before the industrial revolution--> immigration was caused by the food scarsity
After the industria revolution---> was caused for the searching of a better lifestyle.

Also University cause immigration.

Also: normal emmigration would not be seen in the map but there should be a window where we can see the emmigration flow between cities. When a city is attacked and taken, massive emmigration must ocurr (this time must be seen in the map), slowing down the attacking force, those people can also be hunted by genocidals.

FAMILY PLANNING: smaller birth rates at will, when food productions in the world decrease.

INTERNATIONAL COMMERCE: a sistem like in IMPRERIALISM where you can exchange food for production, or food for money etc. Every turn you can put in a "board" your needs and your offers.

[Harel]

SnowFire, they won't chose requirtment army every time, cause volunteer armys ( even due it's lack in ability ) offers good happiness bonus and allow you to send many troops outside your kingdom. Volunteer army allows you much better control over the popultion. Considering how easy it's to revolt in democracy, even happy citizen counts.
But I agree, reduce the cost in the people army. Infatry at 50%, the rest at 66%.
About NotLikeTea posts, here is a though: victories give's a limited high bonus, which degrade over time. a +20% after taking out a unit, +40% after taking out a city. The bonus will drop -10% until it will cease. Can't have more then +50%.

[NotLikeTea]

Would the purpose of this scoring system be to make the player end with a bang? Conquest over time would be worse off than a sudden blitz, taking over an empire in one fell swoop. (well, not much of a swoop.. a max of 50%, and 20% for one unit... )

[Galen]

<head1>My Ideas</head1>
*Make Economic changes gradual, causing the effects to change over 10 years, unless accompanied by a revolution.
*Make Value changes gradual, causing the effects to change over 15 years.
*Make Political changes gradual, causing the effects to change over 10 years, unless accompanied by a revolution.
*Lots of SE choices.
Such choices could be:
Political stuff:
Government Value (like the Gov in SMAC)
Government structure
Rights
Army

Economic stuff:
Economic Value (like the Econ in SMAC)
Taxes
Welfare
Competition

And Other Value stuff:
Base Value system (like Value in SMAC)
Technology
Science
Religion
Sexuality
Enviroment


*Random shifts in public opinoin, requiring you to change your SE choices or face the wrath of riots.

*SE radomly moving one way or another

[Galen]

<head1>My Ideas</head1>
*Make Economic changes gradual, causing the effects to change over 10 years, unless accompanied by a revolution.
*Make Value changes gradual, causing the effects to change over 15 years.
*Make Political changes gradual, causing the effects to change over 10 years, unless accompanied by a revolution.
*Lots of SE choices.
Such choices could be:
Political stuff:
Government Value (like the Gov in SMAC)
Government structure
Rights
Army

Economic stuff:
Economic Value (like the Econ in SMAC)
Taxes
Welfare
Competition

And Other Value stuff:
Base Value system (like Value in SMAC)
Technology
Science
Religion
Sexuality
Enviroment


*Random shifts in public opinoin, requiring you to change your SE choices or face the wrath of riots.

*SE radomly moving one way or another

[Galen]

<head1>My Ideas</head1>
*Make Economic changes gradual, causing the effects to change over 10 years, unless accompanied by a revolution.
*Make Value changes gradual, causing the effects to change over 15 years.
*Make Political changes gradual, causing the effects to change over 10 years, unless accompanied by a revolution.
*Lots of SE choices.
Such choices could be:
Political stuff:
Government Value (like the Gov in SMAC)
Government structure
Rights
Army

Economic stuff:
Economic Value (like the Econ in SMAC)
Taxes
Welfare
Competition

And Other Value stuff:
Base Value system (like Value in SMAC)
Technology
Science
Religion
Sexuality
Enviroment


*Random shifts in public opinoin, requiring you to change your SE choices or face the wrath of riots.

*SE radomly moving one way or another

[NotLikeTea]

Might as well get in one final idea before the dorrs close

This is closely related to Galen's ideas, concerning gradual change.

Suppose I'm in a government system that has +3 morale (assuming it's going to be like SMAC) and I want to switch to another form with -1 morale.

First turn after the revolution I would have +2 morale. Then +1 morale, then 0, and finally -1. The length of the revolution would be the largest difference in values.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Speaking of closing doors . . .

I don't have time to do the summary right now, but this thread is closed, and the new one will be <a href=http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000107.html>SE/G 2.0</a>. If you've been following Octo's numbering scheme, you know this mean that the the next summary (at the beginning of the 2.0 thread) will be the one to go in the first list shipped to Brian Reynolds. Keep sending suggestions though, because even though they won't get in the first letter, there will be more . . .

* * * THREAD CLOSED * * * HAVE A NICE DAY * * *