CHEATS (ver1.0): Hosted by Ming - Page 2

Sten Sture · May 26, 1999, 11:49

first posting... (& good luck in your MP match this evening)

Re: cheat menu

From the cheat menu, I would like to be able to adjust game mechanics like:

shields required for units or wonders
trade/shields/food produced by specials
beakers required for advances
tax rates for govts
movement allowances for road/rail

I have no idea how programable any of this stuff would be, but it would add to the customizability of games and scenarios.

Sten Sture · May 26, 1999, 14:32

Fair enough. My apologies, the only way I knew to change some of that stuff was in the .txt files so I never do it, maybe I just need to review the existing cheat functions before I go spouting off about what 'new' options I would like!

Ming · May 26, 1999, 15:04

SS... no you were right... you use the txt files to make those changes, not the cheat menu. I was just agreeing that they should make it easier for us computer stupid people to do. Your suggestion of using the cheat menu is a good one... or maybe they should have a mod menu...
No apologies needed. What I was attempting to say was that you should check to see if any of the other 1000 threads is actually dealing with similar issues. I felt that if somebody was, they would appreciate your ideas and be able to put them with all the other ideas along the same line. If you can't find an appropriate thread, I would be happy to include it my summary. Sorry for any confusion...

Josh XLII · May 26, 1999, 21:13

Re: Using missiles to patrol...

What about no movement points for missiles (allow them to be transported in ships), and have them attack like paratroopers, dropping onto any unit or city within range?

Just my 0.02...

regards,
josh

Ming · May 27, 1999, 00:01

Sten Sture...
All the stuff you ask for can be done already. But, you raise a great point. You would like to see it be easy to do. Now, I don't know if this should be here! (but your comment to tie it into the cheat menu makes it fair game) So... see if another section would be more appropriate. If you can't find a place, let me know, and I will find a way to place in my summaries... fair deal?

Sten Sture · May 27, 1999, 13:51

Ming - there are a ton of threads!! I've looked through some, but I haven't seen anything yet. I may post the question on the Other thread, or the Mod/Scenario but I'm thinking that it may be just an expanded game set-up option with room for some saved styles so if you are restarting

you don't have to go through the routine that is required now. (that is, the routine as I have heard it to be, since I, of course, never restart - cough, cough)

Ming · May 27, 1999, 14:36

Why Josh XLII, what an eligant solution to something I saw as a real pain in the neck.
Good Point!
Well SS... I can understand if you don't make it through all the threads... I used to go through them ALL, but that is almost impossible now. If you do decide that no place else is appropriate, just let me know and I will fit it here...
It's nice to hear that you don't use that restarting cheat, I know I never do... Heh heh heh

Bird · May 27, 1999, 15:08

Ming: since you don't use that restart "cheat", you probably won't care for my suggestion in one of the other threads that they add a "Create New World" selection to existing games so that the process will be streamlined.

Hmm, maybe this doesn't belong here, maybe I'll start a "Making Cheating Easier" thread.

Ming · May 27, 1999, 15:48

OHHHHH! Right through the heart Bird!
But actually, that's a great idea. I'm glad you could find the right thread to put it in.
Keep up the good work... (i think)

Sten Sture · May 27, 1999, 17:18

Bird - what thread did you post your recommendations on? Do you think it would be the right place for adjustable settings stuff?

Trading cheat...the commodity slam: sending caravans from a very small low trade city to an opponents largest trade city to sabotage their three trade routes. I can't remember if this only works against the AI or really if it works at all, but if so it should not be incorporated into CivIII.

Ming - what about AI cheats? Should we throw those into the AI thread mess, or is it sufficient to say that the AI should have to follow the exact same rules as the humans?

Bird · May 28, 1999, 09:33

StenS: I think I posted that one on the Player Interface (or something like that) thread. If your idea doesn't belong there, you can always put it in the "Other" thread.

As for AI cheats, no matter how much they improve the AI, I suspect they'll always need some AI cheats in order to maintain game balance. There are some particularly egregious ones, though, which I think should be eliminated. For example, you should not have to worry about bombers showing up on the same turn the AI discovers advanced flight. I don't care if they hit you with 30 bombers the next turn (well, maybe that's an exaggeration), but at least let me have a turn to buy SAMs or build some fighters.

Carolus Rex · May 28, 1999, 13:43

I would obviously prefer the AI to be as smart and ruthless as humans. Since it's not possible (yet!) I don't have a problem with AI cheats like the production advantage.

Some of them really gets to me, though. The "instant unit" brought up by Bird is one. Others are the unsinkable trireme, AI omniscience and it's unlimited supply of cruise missiles.

But where to draw the line between cheats that increase the difficulty level without reducing the fun of the game and those that do? They are all unfair in some way, but I'll rather have a more challenging game (i.e. with AI cheats) than an easy one (without AI cheats).

I never played the original Civ, but I read somewhere that the AI civs didn't actually build the wonders themselves. They were simply given to them at random. Must have been, well, "frustrating"

Carolus

Ming · May 30, 1999, 15:04

SS We can discuss whatever we want.
In my opinion, I don't mind if the AI cheats in the build area... but I don't like bombers that never have to land, or the fact that happiness isn't really a problem for them.
But, I guess that the AI will never be good enough to really challange a good player.
Since I have to summarize this thread at the 50 post mark... a few more cheats to throw out there.

The trading of caravans to set up instant trade routes... We call this one instant teleportation.... Suggestions folks.

The ability to watch people change governments by using the chat screen and watching peoples titles change..

Using the location of your units to find other cities... (go into the city menu, click on a unit, and it will tell you the nearest city, even if you haven't found it)

The old knowing if a dark square is ocean touching land by looking at the square designation...

Are there any more folks....

Xin Yu · May 30, 1999, 17:34

The password coding is too easy to break. Last night I just did it. By changing several hex codes (one hex for each civ) I was able to successfully cancel the passwords for all seven civs. Also, as somebody mentioned, if one saves the game as a scenario the passwords would have no use of protecting the other players. These must be changed in CIV3 or the game will be ruined by cheaters.

Matthew · May 30, 1999, 22:22

First post

A. I disagree that the ship chain strategy is actually a cheat.

1. First of all, doing it over distance, especially with triremes, represents a huge investment of resources in shipping. One is hardly getting this benefit cheaply.

2. The ability to move by boat around the world in 1 turn, when that 1 turn represents 10 to 50 years, is hardly unrealistic.

3. If one sees movement in this game as one ground unit moving only 1 to 6 squares
a turn before railroad, or as a naval unit carrying its cargo only 3 to 6 squares in one turn, then one is baffled by such a small movement over 10 to 50 years. relative movement points can't be seen as actual, but rather are a representation of logistical problems of movement experienced in reality, wich on land can be alleviated by roads, and later by rail roads, and on the sea by the expenditure of vast resources on naval transport. That one is able to move units "railroad style" much earlier by sea than by land in Civ2 is actually reflected in reality. European powers during the age of discovery were so interrested in finding various sea routes to India and China, and fought so hard for dominance of these routes largely, if not entirely, because It was logistically far easier, and often faster, to transport large ammounts of goods by sea than it was by land.

B. I disagree that the repeat commodities trade strategy is a cheat.

1. It is hardly unrealistic that some cities will go on supplying or demanding the same commodity after having been involved in a trade transaction, while other cities will not. Different cities will vary in the size of their supply or demand, and one caravan may not be enough to exaust or fill it. This has to be represented somehow.

2. This is not an unbalancing factor in MP, as:

a. unlike other cheats other civs have definite and reasonable methods of stopping this, or at least limiting it, via blocade. This is not true of the caravan gift strategy, which is unstoppable via blocade. Also, another human civ can take advantage of the continued demand for a good by sending his or her own caravan.

b. Even against the AI this strategy is not without risk, as first of all, the AI may decide to kill your caravan layden ship at any time without warning, and secondly because the demanding city may still lose the demand in favor of another commodity, even after you have already built five now far less valuable caravans to send there. Or the AI may decide to revolt or to stick all workers on trees and unroaded plains for a few turns to build something faster, making the trade routes less valuable.

c. In either case making the most of an RTC situation still does require the expenditure of time and resources for caravan building and transport, without complete certainty of a good payoff.

[This message has been edited by Matthew (edited May 30, 1999).]

Xin Yu · June 2, 1999, 00:06

I found the original "save as scenario and cheat" thread and tried it. After that I have to edit my post here. It works (I thought the new patch had fixed it, but I was wrong).

[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited June 02, 1999).]

June 2, 1999, 04:10

This is my first placement on this thread (learned a lot, thanks guys!).

On my version of Civ II I can't chain ships for some reason (somewhat to my regret - I used to place ships in Civ I between close continents and thought of the ships as ferries - is this a cheat, I thought not????).

I would like to offer three cheats, two of which I would put in the category of programming glitches, one probably belongs in the AI thread:

. If you double click on a dark part of the map the screen describing terrain will come up (saves on those ill fated trireme expeditions).

. For some reason the aircraft carrier in my version of civ II will carry 8 planes and as many cruise and nuclear missiles I want to put on it. I don't get much advantage from this, and perhaps it should be possible, but was it supposed to be like that? Same with submarines.

. The Pearl Harbour strategy: I often win the game by building a massive fleet and cruising it right up to the capitals of rivals (i.e. just before their spaceship lands). Nine times out of ten the civ does nothing as I'm deploying and, even if it does, you can buy them off. Its like the entire U.S. navy rocks up to say China and the Chinese just look on passively until the nukes start dropping. I mean, I've deployed my ground forces (i.e. invaded) and nothing pre-emptive happens - in some cases its like the AI sees your force as its own troops. You can even provoke the target civ once you've deployed (in the turn you attack) and save your "spotless" reputation. I enjoy doing it but its not right. Perhaps the sea should also have "borders"....

But the biggest cheat of all for me is the ability to replay a turn by auto-saving and re-loading it if things don't turn out as you wish. I don't know if I'd be happy if that option was removed, probably can't be anyway.

P.S.

oh yes, one more: disbanding military units in a city building a wonder. Buggered if I know how disbanding 20 mech inf helps build the UN but it certainly does in the game!

[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited June 02, 1999).]

Carolus Rex · June 2, 1999, 09:01

Alexander's Horse,

(Please go to the general forum and post in the thread "Handles, handles, handles". I'm curious

)

IMHO, ability to save each turn is useful for experimenting, trying different strategies under the same initial conditions or for testing things.

I don't have a problem with the "risk" of reloading. It's up to your own ethics if you cheat or not. I mean, how can I be satisfied with a personal "record" if I know I reloaded all the times something went wrong?

Carolus

Ecce Homo · June 2, 1999, 09:47

If you consider reloading cheating, here is a suggestion:

From the beginning, a game under normal conditions (no modpacks, no customized maps, no special rules) is declared a pure game. When you save a pure game, you automatically exit the program, and you can only load it once - then it becomes demoted to a "regular" game. Pure game scores will be highlighted in the Hall of Fame.

Of course this system must be hacking-proof.

June 3, 1999, 02:11

I think I'm a bit more relaxed about cheats than Ming but I don't know how many times I've tried something and then reloaded the saved game if it didn't come off. So much so that I couldn't really say if I've EVER completed a game without doing it (there's a confession for you). Its almost subconscious. Maybe it should be optioned that if you open a saved game twice that's cheat mode or,as Ecce Homo said, you get a lower score. On the other hand, sometimes you really didn't mean to do something or forgot to do something (like complete a wonder in time). Then I thinks it fair to go back a turn and fix it (or maybe not...just rationalisation - after all, fortunes of war / little accidents happen in history as well, like all the time - WWI etc.). Probably no answer and I don't lie awake at night worrying about it either.

June 3, 1999, 03:02

Ecce Homo:
Concerning the reload cheating, I can assure you that your idea won't work without modification. I can defeat your suggested mechanism if I can identify the file name of the save game. I will just make a copy of the file and rename it.
For any game with save features that allows easy duplication of a save game, it is nearly impossible to prevent the reload cheats. I believe that personal integrity is the way to go in preventing reload cheats.

Xin Yu · June 10, 1999, 15:10

Try this: double-click a square which you have already explored. If you don't see the terrian information, then you know somebody has built a city there.

Theben · June 11, 1999, 13:06

Missiles should have some movement, as if motorized (move2 in civ2) or mechanized (move3), and treated as a ground unit. Then it can be "paradropped".

Bombers can be solved by not allowing air units to remain in the air at all. See don Don's Movement, Supply, etc. list. He & I have different ideas, but in both cases the air unit is back on the ground at the end of the turn.

Saved games as cheating:
All I know is that the Iron Man setting in SMAC doesn't work. Save the game before a critical decision, then re-load the whole game. If things don't turn out, you can quickly re-load the same game, over and over! A little more annoying, but not that much.

possible solution,
2 things: 1)Go way, WAYY back to a little game known as NETHACK(remember this one?). When the Iron Man game is re-loaded the program will automatically delete the saved game.
2)Use some type o' programming that recognizes when the original game was created and records it, then will not allow a later copy of the same game to be opened. This should stop people from copying a game and saving it somewhere else on their computer.

[This message has been edited by Theben (edited June 11, 1999).]

Theben · June 11, 1999, 13:07

RE: city and unit swaps in MP,

solution: City & unit must adjust to new ownership-transfer of government, reorganization, connect to new supply lines, etc.- so the unit will lose it's movement for 1 turn, and the city will not produce anything (except food) for 1 turn. Trade will also shut down or be disrupted (1/2 rate?) for this turn. Occurs each time a city or unit is traded.

BTW, Ming, what happened to the old cheat thread? I'm looking for something & I can't find it anywhere.

Ming · June 11, 1999, 14:25

Theben... if you are thinking about the original cheating thread for civIII... go to the general civIII section... change your setting at the top to view threads from the last 100 days (last 10 days is the default) and go to page 4. It should be about 3/4 of the page down. If you are refering to the many cheating threads that were done prior...you may be able to still find some of them in the multiplay and strategy sections.
Again, change it to the last 100 days, or longer, and scrool through the topics...
Is there a specific question I can answer?

I will be providing my first summary for the 6/14 deadline... I will also post it in this thread for peoples comments...
Again, thanks for your help....

Theben · June 12, 1999, 19:35

No, I just had some ideas there that I want to put in my "civ3 wish list" which I finally have time to deal with...I'll try to have it done by tomorrow to catch the deadline.

Ming · June 13, 1999, 17:53

I have e-mailed the following summary to the group. I have tried to include everything that really fits. If I have forgotten something... just blast away.

Please continue to post, since this is only the first summary.

CHEATS

Even though this section is called cheats, it really encompasses much more. This was also meant to cover design flaws that can be utilized to your advantage while playing the game. We recognize that much of the new game will be different than the current game. And many of the things we are going to bring up will probably be changed anyway. But, our intent is show you how we abuse the current game. By seeing how we do it now, you will have an idea of what to pay attention to in the new game.

First, I would like to thank the following people for all their time and contributions to this section:
Ecce Homo, Carolus Rex, Theben, Zorloc, EnochF, DaveV, Txurce, Xin Yu, Depp, GP, Rainer, Sieve Too, Bird, Travathian, Rashind, Sten Sture, JoshXLII, Matthew, Alexander's Horse, mingko, MWHC, and Kaak.

FREE INFORMATION
Much of the fun of the game is in the discovery. But little did you know that you provide us with tons of ways to cheat and get information we shouldn't have:

1) if you are looking for other civs, you can use the city menu and click on a unit. It tells you the nearest city, even if you haven't found the city yet. It helps you find, or hunt down other civs.
2) Clicking on the map where you haven't explored, and look at the number after the coordinates tells you if the place is ocean or land… very important when moving ships that can be lost at sea.
3) double-click a square which you have already explored. If you don't see the terrian information, then you know somebody has built a city there.
4) Any city that has built a wonder may be located using the "find City" command. You get an exact location, even if you haven't discovered the city yet.

In MP, there are a few real good sources for "free" information:

1) The start up screen when you select civs while continuing a saved game. This gives you the number of cities and number of units for all civs. Now, you probably did this to allow somebody new to pick the better of the AI controlled civs. Why not set it up so that if a civ has been passworded, the information doesn't show for them.
2) The chat screen provides titles for the players you are sending messages too. If you learn the different titles for each race, you can reasonably track what government they are in, or when they are between governments.
3) If somebody investigates a city with a spy or diplomat, all players in the game that have that city on his or her map can see what's in it too.

THE CHEAT MENU AND GAME SECURITY

And right behind all the free information we can get through the above things, there is always the cheat menu. Most people love the cheat menu, and nobody really wants it eliminated. However, better security is needed. Here are the issues that were raised:

1) Password protection on MP was a great idea. But, if you use the scenario menu, and flag the scenario option, you can then use the cheat menu to view the board, or even change the rules. Some people have been saving the game, and then loading it onto a second computer so they can view the whole world while playing an MP game. Why not offer the same protection… if you want to use the scenario options, have it check to see if there are any passwords. This won't stop designers from doing what they want, but it would stop the blatant cheating.
2) The next point is one you can't probably do anything about, but most people brought it up. The reloading of a game to avoid and replay a "bad event" is always discussed. It's ok that you can do this, because many people do it. But, is there some way a "no cheat" option can be selected at the start of the game that would not allow reloading. Again, it is probably impossible, but many people would like to see this option.
3) The cheat menu is nice. And it's really nice that if you use it, it is recorded in the game. But most people just go to cheat, look at the map or whatever, and then reload the game so it isn't recorded. Again, probably impossible to do… but anything that would even make this harder to do would help.
4) The password coding is too easy to break. Several people have come up ways read them, or cancel them.

FREE MOVEMENT

While airports and railroads already provide almost unlimited movement, there are many design flaws that allow big abuses of the system.

1) In MP, you can give a unit to a player after you have moved it. The other player can also move it on his turn. This can double the distance it can move in a single turn. It's a great way to sneak a spy through good defenses to bribe a city. And it even gets worse. If you move a unit, give it to a player, and he gives it back during your turn, you can move it again. This can be repeated as many times as you like, giving a unit real unlimited movement. Some have suggested that all you need to do is make so a unit can only move once during any given year, or make it so a unit can't be moved during the year after it was given to somebody.
2) The Free Trade Route Trick is also a good cheat. If you give a caravan or freight to somebody, they can set up an immediate trade route with you. By doing this, there is no need to ever have to move a caravan over land or sea… just give it to a player, and on his turn, the trade route is established. Instant money. You can be on an island, and move caravans to any point on the globe as long as you have established contact or built one of the two embassy wonders. Some have suggested that when you give somebody a caravan or freight, it moves to whatever city is considered it's home. Yes, this is also free movement, but is the lesser of two evils.
3) The I Can Walk On Water Trick is also a good way to increase movement. If you give somebody a ship, any units on it appear on the nearest shore. You can move your ship just past the halfway mark of any large body of water, and give the ship away. Your units remain under your control, and appear on the other side of the ocean, ready to attack or move. (One additional comment… if you give a boat to somebody else that happens to be in a stack, the rest of the ships disappear… this must be a flaw)
4) Ship Chaining is also a good one. By using a chain of ships, you can move units from one ship to another and move them very large distances in one turn. As long as you have your ships in the right place, it's amazing what you can do. We understand the need to allow the transfer of troops from one ship to another, but there must be someway to limit just how many ships they can be transferred to.
5) Another concern by some is the ability to move a unit into a city using it's last movement point, then putting it to sleep so that it can board a ship on the same turn. Combine this with ship chaining, and things get out of hand. Some have suggested that a units disposition shouldn't be allowed to be changed by a city menu after it's movement points have been used.

COMMAND MENU CONSISTENCY

This section is only really meant to ask you to be consistent. If there are multiple ways to give a unit a command (command menu or city screen), make sure that both allow the same thing.

1) Changing the home city of a caravan or freight is a classic example. In the rules, it says you can't do this. On the command menu, that option can't be selected. In the city menu, you can. Now, the latest patch fixes this for MP games, but not for regular games against the AI
2) The free fortify option is another example. If you select a unit in the city menu and fortify it, it is not fortified until the next turn. If you fortify a unit in a city by using the command menu, it instantly becomes fortified.

COMBAT CHEATS

1) The old "unattackable stack" trick is a real cheat. Put a bomber over a stack of units, and no ground units can hit it. Is this really what the designer intended?
2) The "ZOC Avoidance Trick". By using spies or diplomats, you can move your military units through zones of control. We actually can't agree on whether this is a cheat or not. But the real question is, was this what the designers intended?
3) By using multiple engineers, you can change a square from fortification to air base and then back again all during the same turn. This gives you the advantages of both, which goes against what is written in the manual.
OTHER CHEATS

Here are some more things that may or may not be considered flaws. Nobody really knows if some of these were intentional or not.

1) Airbases provide additional shields and food when built within a city radius. They also provide instant railroads. In addition, you can build a line of them, and keep enemy air units and nukes away from specific locations. This can't be intentional, could it?
2) Some people use nukes and cruise missiles to explore or patrol. The though of a missile coming home defies logic. Some have suggested that missiles should be treated like paratroopers. You pick a target, and the missile goes there.
3) The way food caravans make the food box full can be used in a strange way. You can send multiple food caravans from city A to the city B, and it will only cost you one food subtraction for the trade route. The first caravan fills the box, and the second adds a population. This can be repeated endlessly to build cities up to the max population without any concern to the availability of food in the city radius. All this for the cost of ONE food trade route.
4) Rush buying military units has caused a lot of discussion. From Civ I to Civ II, they changed the building process to create three categories: units, city improvements, and wonders. This was done to stop many of the cheat building tricks we were using in Civ I. But, if you want to rush buy a military unit… it is cheaper to buy it in stages. If you want a diplomat… buy a warrior, change to horse and buy it, and the change to diplomat and buy that… all in the same turn. This is cheaper than just buying a diplomat straight up. Interestingly enough, you can only use this trick on units. It doesn't make a difference to do this with city improvements or wonders. Since this difference exists, many consider it cheating. Whether it is or not, isn't the issue. If this was intentional, we just ask that you include information on it in the manual so we know.
5) The "Repeated Commodity" has also caused discussion. Usually, when you build a freight or caravan, you pick a commodity. After that, that commodity can't be built anymore. But rare cities have the ability to allow you to produce the same commodity over and over again. Is this a flaw?
6) The turbo settler/engineer is another one. If you command a settler/engineer to do something, and then stop it before the action is complete, you can move the settler to another spot and continue the same task there. Any time spent in the previous square working on the improvement is transferred to the new square. Bug or feature?

IN CONCLUSION

I'm sure that more examples will pop up in the future. But that's not really the issue. Since this will be a new game, we know that many of these things will not be relevant. However, all we ask is for you to consider how we are cheating now, and think about it as you design this new game. No game is perfect. When it comes out, we will find new ways to cheat. With a little extra though up front, you can make it harder on us. And, when we do figure them out, just ask us what they are so you can fix them (if possible) with new patches.

Thank you for listening to us.

MING

Carolus Rex · June 14, 1999, 07:41

Well written and humble (no "fix this!" or "give us that!" attitude).

Great summary!

Carolus

rah · June 14, 1999, 09:20

Good work and good summary. After reading it though I did see one item that I thought deserved additional discussion. The random event. Don't like what you get, reset. If the random number generator start point is determined in a previous turn, it will be harder to change the outcome. If you remember it from MOOG, you had to at least move ships to different star systems to change the outcome of random events. There were turns where you were limited to what you could do to change it without screwing up your strategy. While this doesn't totally fix it, it did make thing really inconvienient to people that like to reset random events. Maybe there's an even better way.
RAH