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Old June 14, 1999, 13:18   #1
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WONDERS (ver 1.2): Hosted by EnochF
Here's my summary as it stands as of early 6/15/99. Anyone who believes their suggestion to be incorrectly summarized or ignored, speak now or forever hold your peace.

By paying double the shield cost, a civilization can build a World's Greatest city improvement, which grants a small bonus for that city (double effect, as in +100% gold for marketplaces, 4 citizens happy for temples, etc.) Another civilization can pay double that to outdo the current World's Greatest. A temple = 20 shields, the first World's Greatest = 40, someone else spends 80 to outdo them, etc.
Pythagoras: Suggests limited timespan for world's greatest.
kmj: Suggests "bidding" for world's greatest. Suggests world's greatest can go obsolete, i.e. World's Greatest Marketplace loses all bonuses upon discovery of Banking.
Glacier: World's tallest building or longest bridge/tunnel could provide extra gold or happiness.
Ecce Homo: World’s Greatest Palace would be buildable throughout the game, would give diplomatic bonus and kill corruption.
Q Cubed: Every World’s Greatest would be effective until trumped by the new World’s Greatest. Cost is not doubled but graded at 10% increases. 100, 110, 121, etc. Suggestions:
Tallest Building [+trade]
Longest Bridge [+trade] /must be built between cities across channel, river\
Longest Tunnel [+trade] /must be built between cities across channel (~Chunnel), river, mountain, hill\
Greatest (Places of Worship (temple, cathedral)) [+happiness +trade]
Greatest (Places of Trade (marketplace, bank, stock exchange, supermarket)) [+trade]
Best (Places of Education (university, library, academy)) [+science]
Best Superhighways [+production *easier travel between cities]
Largest Harbor [+production +food +trade] /must be built in cities with access to inland seas or oceans\
Busiest Airport [+food +production +trade *easier travel between cities such as multiple flights from airports to this city]
Busiest Seaport [+food +production +trade] /must be built in cities with access to ocean\
Best Hospital [+science +happiness]
Best (Factories) [+production +trade +science]
Best Arcologies [+trade +science +food +production] /must be built in cities with all city radii squares filled, or cities larger than 21 people\
Best (Entertainment Complexes (Stadium, Holotheaters, Movie Palaces)) [+trade +happiness]
Largest Corporation [+trade +science +production +energy]
Greatest Clock Tower [+trade +production]
Flavor Dave: World’s Greatests could either be useless or dominant. Balance is important.
Theben: Disapproves of World's Greatest because it will end up a lot of wasted production for a minor effect.

A long series of flags allows players to redefine current wonders and create new ones to a much larger extent. Any Wonders dropped from the final release of the game might still persist as possible game effects to be used by scenario and modpack designers.

Random negative effects for more powerful wonders. Leonardo's might leave a percentage of units not upgraded. Lighthouse has a chance to burn out each turn.
EnochF: As an alternative to random effects, use constant negative effects instead. Increased pollution or corruption in the host city, slight happiness reduction for the civ, high maintenance cost in gold, or something along those lines.
EnochF: Example: if the Great Library is ever captured, your civ may lose all the technology it provided.

An option in the game menu to disallow all wonder effects (and even the ability to build wonders). Alternatively, an option to "tone down" wonders, maybe decrease effects by half wherever possible.
Ufa: A "modifier" for wonders, like Civ II's modifier for barbarians
Mark_Everson: Disallow wonders that count as an improvement in every city. Wonders that never go obsolete are unbalancing.
Ecce Homo: Suggests Pyramid be city improvement, thus Great Pyramid = world's greatest

No two cities in one civilization can build the same wonder at the same time.
CyberShy: No races allowed at all.
kmj: Races between two civilizations should be discouraged but not disallowed by the game. A message appears, such as, "Sir, the Egyptians are believed to be working on a similar project. Shall we continue?"
SnowFire: Disallowing switching production would severely handicap the AI. A player can always buy the wonder at the last minute, leaving the computer with a great deal of wasted production.
ErikNYC: Left-over production could be converted into trade, food, science, or some other variable related to the Wonder being constructed.
Stefu: Don’t disallow races. Disallow rush-building Wonders. This would make races more interesting. (Trying various ways of cranking up production).
NotLikeTea: Don’t disallow rush-building Wonders. Limit it. Allow 10% rush-building per turn at a high cost.
Jimmy: Disallow switching production. How can Pyramid builders suddenly start building Leonardo’s Workshop?
Theben: Do not allow civs to continue building Wonders that are already built; they can "upgrade" a city improvement to a mini-wonder or world's greatest.

Wonder effects which change as the ages progress. Pyramids act as granary early on, then change to gold bonus. Olympic Games provide extra gold, cease to function in Renaissance, then increase happiness in later ages, etc. Aging wonders may incur higher and higher maintenance costs.
EnochF: All obsolete wonders generate tourism gold.
SnowFire: Aging wonders should not incur maintenance costs simply because they are obsolete. However, maintenance costs for certain Wonders may be feasible.
EdCase: When a Wonder goes obsolete, adds 10% to income of the city.
Depp: The game's more fun when Wonders never go obsolete.

The Great Canal, for example, requiring explosives, modern engineers, allows trade routes. The Polders may reclaim land from the sea. A Great Wall which actually acts as a physical wall along the civ's borders.
Ecce Homo: Canals, bridges, walls could be city improvements. The World's Greatest Canal could have effects resembling Great Canal.
kmj: Land engineering Wonders are limited by the surrounding terrain, no Great Canal by water
ml_4da3: Engineers should be able to modify rivers; perhaps a Wonder could facilitate this.

Only if two rival civs are building the same wonder, the second civ to complete the wonder receives a "compensation" bonus of happiness or gold. The first civ receives the standard wonder effect.
Fugi the Great: Civs can build the same Wonder and call it something different.
Wheathin: Wonders should be only those things which are not reproducible; everything else is a city improvement of some kind, but mini-wonders could work as a middle step.
paraclet: Favors off button, or that all civs should be able to build each Wonder once. Once a Wonder is built, all civs could build a corresponding “national project,” i.e., Leonardo’s equivalent would be National Academy of Technology.
Flavor Dave: Wonders should be built only once. This incorporates important choices in the strategy of the game.
Q Cubed: Multiple clones of a Wonder are a poor alternative to the “unfair advantage” of one civ having dominion over one Wonder. A re-buildable Wonder wouldn’t be a Wonder.

Effects are conferred upon a civilization simply by having the wonder in its territory.
Taedott: Natural wonders are a resource, no benefits unless "improved."
meowser: Natural wonders appear on Earth map, or randomized on map like SMAC geographical features. Size: 1 tile, offer resource bonus, can be "improved" to provide tourism.
J.DeMobray: Building Natural Wonders is ludicrous. Besides, what would Mt. Fuji do?
Q Cubed: Suggestions:
Landmarks, randomly seeded by the fractal map generator; confers bonuses to all tiles within a city radius
Big Waterfalls {goes by Niagara, Angel, etc.} [+energy +trade +production]
Big Mountains {Kilimanjaro, McKinley, K2, etc.} [+energy +trade -population]
Big Canyons, Trenches {Grand Canyon, Great Rift Valley, Marianas Trench, etc.} [+energy +trade]
Big Volcanos {Krakatoa, Pinatubo, etc.} [+energy +production -population]
Big Reefs {Great Barrier Reef, etc.} [+trade +science +food]
Big Forests {Schwarzwald, etc.} [+trade +science +production]
Big Jungles {Amazon Rain Forest, the Congo Rain Forest, etc.} [+trade +science +food +production]
Big Deserts {Sahara, etc.} [+trade +science -population]
Big Inland Freshwater Seas {Great Lakes, Lake Victoria, etc.} [+trade +science +food]
Big Inland Saltwater Seas {Caspian Sea, Great Salt Lake, etc.} [+trade +science]
Flavor Dave: 2 trade arrows for a Natural Wonder square; looks impressive on the city screen (city view screen). Would make Explorer units more useful. Cities can’t be built on Natural Wonder squares.

Certain Wonders would appear in the city radius as impressive graphics. They would not confer any bonus to the worker on that square.
meowser: Visible wonders should be vulnerable to pillage (without direct assault on the city).
Ecce Homo: All Wonders should be visible. If it's not visible, it's not a Wonder (Women's Suffrage, Internet, Emancipation Act are thus disallowed)

Part of a larger system suggested in other forums. The Wonders a player builds help define a new game element called "culture," which may affect a civilization's war readiness, science, economy, government, even graphical representation on screen. A fairly radical reordering of traditional Civ. Bears resemblance to "social engineering" as found in SMAC.
Darkstarr: Special Projects could be mechanisms for adjusting social engineering.

Certain Wonders are only constructible by certain civs. Which civ can build which Wonder may be randomized at the beginning of the game.
kmj: Disagrees with cultural wonders, warns against "factions" rather than civilizations.
(Many disagreements)

Effects of wonders should not be predefined. Effects of the Wonder should only become clear to the builder X number of years after it is built.

Wonders should not cease all effects on obsolescence, but gradually "phase out" over a few turns.
Zakalwe: Suggests something similar for captured wonders. Effects do not take effect immediately.
kmj: No advance should make more than one Wonder obsolete.
Russell: An advance discovered by a faraway civ should not make your wonder go obsolete. This should only happen when you’ve encountered the civ directly.
Ecce Homo: Wonders should not “go obsolete.” They should become irrelevant. Examples: Great Library will only give Ancient or Medieval advances. Great Wall does not protect against gunpowder units. Thus, Great Wall will always protect against Legions, whether or not Metallurgy has been discovered.

Certain limited Wonders could be jointly built by a conglomeration of nations. United Nations is an obvious choice.

Also suggested in the Diplomacy list. All civs allied with each other receive the effects of each other's Wonders.
(Several agree)

Certain Wonders are not dependent upon shields (resources) to be built. Scientific Wonders built by beakers, Economic Wonders built by gold.
NotLikeTea: How about the first civilization to send a ship around the world automatically gains the “Magellan’s Voyage” Wonder. Manhattan Project is accomplished using Research Beakers instead of Shields.
Jimmy: agrees with Magellan’s Voyage
NotLikeTea: Luxuries could be used to build happiness Wonders.
NotLikeTea: Rethinking his position because it will end up the rich getting richer. (more gold = more production for economic wonders)

Growing out of Sieve Too's Internet Wonder. Many wonders provide benefits to all civs, i.e. the Olympic Games open to all who choose to participate, Wormhole Sensor, Apollo, Manhattan, etc.
willko: Disagrees. Wonders should have localizable benefits to the city they are built in (e.g., Lighthouse only functions at X distance maximum). Any wonder with a "universal" benefit should have a separate "non-universal" benefit, i.e. Manhattan Project also grants +25% science.

Wonders are not built on the level of the city at all. Instead of being a city project, they are built by the entire civilization, using X% of total production or some such thing. Wonders thus do not appear in cities but in a special "wonder screen."
Fugi the Great: Wonders built by engineers or terraformers rather than X% of production. Increase costs of Wonders.
Eggman: Instead, have cities “funnel” their production into building the Wonder. Instead of having cities build caravans, which add to production, “eliminate the middleman.” A city could dedicate its production (or a percentage) to building a Wonder.

Hoover Dam may be called Aswan or Three Gorges or London Dam. Forbidden City may be called Imperial Palace, Throne Hall of Persepolis, Palace of Versailles or Atlanta Palace. The Agency may be called FBI, CIA, KGB, KLA or KMJ Killer Squad.
Trachmyr: The game should suggest a few key names.
Flavor Dave: Naming your own wonder would offset the America-centrism.

Lighthouse only in coastal city, Hoover Dam requires a river. Only applies to certain Wonders.

Certain wonders are more beneficial in certain worlds. Lighthouse, Magellan are more useful in watery worlds; Marco Polo for large worlds.

Suggests a huge number of wonders (rather than Wonders) with small effects, usually increased trade. Examples: Space Needle, Leaning Tower, etc. Rather than huge Wonders with sweeping effects like Pyramids, have countless small wonders with tiny, localized effects.
Russell: suggests "mini-wonders" with small build costs.
Theben: suggested mini-wonders a while back, buildable once per city, double the cost; upon building, the player could choose a special bonus/effect for the mini-wonder (something small and reasonable)

The ability to voluntarily destroy a Wonder (in a captured city or otherwise), sort of the equivalent of “selling” a city improvement. In SMAC terminology, counts as an atrocity.
Mo: Alternate idea. If a city containing a Wonder is destroyed, the Wonder will remain visible in one of the city squares (assumes Visible Wonders are implemented). Any civ which builds a city near the wonder gains “part of its effects.”

Consensus is that the Wonders are Eurocentric or Americacentric. There is a call for more international Wonders. Several are listed in the Suggested Wonders section.
Areas for consideration: Russia has been passed over for Wonders. The Americas are under-represented, except for the United States, which is over-represented.

A suggestion that provoked a huge response of support. The Internet wonder would provide benefits to not only the host civilization, but all civilizations with the Computers advance. Sparked the discussion about "universal" wonders.
anachron: Internet should be a technological advance, not a Wonder.

Should have military ramifications, such as the ability to infect an enemy city with genetically engineered virus and start an epidemic.

The Eiffel Tower would prevent other civilizations from sneak-attacking you.
Sieve Too: Suggests the new Eiffel Tower plus United Nations might be an unfair combination. Suggests instead a permanent, unbreakable alliance with all civs.
Theben: Changed Eiffel Tower to Bill of Rights in his modpack.

Every age should have exactly seven Wonders.

"National Special Projects" is the general category, of which Wonders are a subset. Wonders are unique NSP's, but certain NSP's would be rebuildable. Certain Wonders could enable the construction of other NSP's.
Q Cubed: As opposed to Wonders, National Projects can be built by more than one civilization, though the costs are roughly equivalent. High maintenance and weaker effects than Wonders, typically.

Merely having researched the appropriate technology does not immediately allow the construction of the Wonder associated with that technology. There is a cumulative chance each turn that someone will "think up" the Wonder, making it available for your civ to build.

Wonders such as Shakespeare’s Theater would be eliminated. Instead, “Great Leader” units would pop up occasionally.

Abu Simbel
Admiral Nelson's Fleet: increased ship strength/movement, maybe
Agora (huge market in Mali, possibly, trade bonus; effect: caravans treat all squares as roads, or 6 moves, or travel over water without ships).
Alaskan Oil Pipeline
Alfred Nobel's Foundation
The Almagest (Ptolemy's Almagest): boost to science
Angel Falls
Angkor Wat
Area 51
Aristotle's Encyclopedia of Knowledge: boost to ancient science, but gradually declines to become a hindrance to science later on; eventually goes obsolete with Heliocentrism
The Aswan Dam
The Aztec Temple in Tenochtitlan
Banaue Rice Terraces
The Bay of Fundy
Borobudur Temple
Carnegie Steel Corporation: boost to production, I assume
The Channel Tunnel: connects two cities (must be constructed between two civilizations, maybe?)
The Clock Tower (Big Ben)
The CN Tower
The Colosseum
The Crystal Palace
Diderot's Encyclopedia: science
Dome on the Rock (one content per city; all civs with Monotheism suffer 1 unhappy per city in 4+ cities)
Empire State Building
Fedreal Bureau of Investigation: veteran spies, effects of spy in every city, better protection vs. rival spies/diplomats/corporate branches, etc.
Francis Bacon's Royal Society: science
The Gateway Arch
The Grand Canyon
Grand Palace of the Soviet (diplomatic bonus)
The Great Barrier Reef
The Great Canal
Great General Staff (Großer Generalstab)
The Great Polis (removes negative effects of current government, fails to function if captured)
Ibn Battuta's Travels
Iguaçú Falls
The Iliad: double movement rate of settlers and clerics
Imperial Navy Shipyard
Ise Shrine
Itaipú Dam
The Kaaba: happiness
King Asoka's Edict
KGB: same as FBI
Krakatoa Island
The Kremlin
The Leaning Tower
Machu Pichu
The Marianas Trench: underwater natural wonder
Mars Colony
The Mausoleum
The Mayan Temples of Mikal
Mines of Potosi
The Moai Statues
Moon Base
Mt. Everest
Mt. Fuji
Mt. Kilimanjaro
Mt. Rushmore
Nakamatsu’s Workshop
The New Deal (same effect as Cure for Cancer)
Niagara Falls
The Olympic Games: happiness wonder, buildable in early ages, goes obsolete in renaissance then "turns on" again in modern times
Paricutin Volcano
The Parthenon: happiness
The Petronas Towers
The Polders: reclaiming land from the sea
The Queen's Dominion
Red Square
The Red-Line (Transatlantic Cable)
St. Basil's Cathedral
St. Peter's Basilica
The Shwedagon Pagoda
Statue of Zeus
Statue of Cristo Redentor: happiness
Stupa of Wild Goose
Sultan's Forge: boost to gunpowder units/cannons
Sydney Opera House
Taj Mahal
Temple of Artemis
Temple of the Inscriptions
Tennessee Valley Authority: increased public works, maybe...
Three Gorges Dam
The Throne Hall of Persepolis
The Time Tunnel (look, it wasn’t my idea)
Trans-Siberian Railroad (will build railroads between all cities; this assumes that RR's do not allow unlimited movement, but perhaps 1/12th point per square)
Tycho Brahe's Observatory (Uranienborg): science
Victoria Falls
Wall Street
Ziggurat at Ur

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by EnochF (edited June 15, 1999).]</font>
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Old June 14, 1999, 16:02   #2
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Regarding world's greatest:

A while back I suggested 'mini'-wonders. The basic idea was you'd pay x2 cost for the city structure. The structure would have the same benefits as normal, plus you'd be directed to a MOO2-like interface (in the racial attributes screen) where you could pick a couple of minor extra effects for the "wonder". Some abilities would not be available to every building type. Now other civs could also build mini-wonders of the same building type, but no 2 mini-wonders of the same type can have the same effects. So eventually you'd run out of possible types, but still have many to choose from. These city structures could still be destroyed, but it would be harder to destroy them than normal structures.

Allow construction of regular wonders too, but under the same restrictions (and only before the game starts). Also allow the losers in a race for a wonder to build a mini-wonder or to upgrade an existing building to a mini-wonder (this is the ONLY time you could upgrade to a mini-wonder). Do NOT allow civs to continue building wonders that have already been built.

New & different wonders:

Hanging Gardens & Sheakespeare's - Switch their effects around

Oracle - 200 cost

Great Wall - All existing cities get level 1 city walls PERMANENTLY(unless destroyed). New cities receive them at size 2. No forced peace or bonus vs. barbarians, but you do get a diplomatic bonus to negotiations. In addition, civ gets 6/8/10 small forts (small/medium/large worlds), one per turn until complete. Forts must start within 5 of a city and be placed within 3 another fort. Each fort is immediately manned by 1 "non"-homed unit of your best defensive type, of average veteran status. The diplomatic bonus ends with modern warfare, all else does not expire. This is based on having 3 levels of city walls, 1 per warfare category(ancient, gunpowder, modern), level 1 walls have reduced bonuses vs. more modern weaponry.

Rich's Crusade - All move2 units built receive bonus to veteran status, cumulative w/ Sun Tzu. In addition, cities with temples receive +1 trade, +2 trade if they have cathedrals, +3 if both (the pilgrimage routes). Also there is a 5% chance per turn of discovering a tech of a civ you are at war with, maximum of 1 tech per civ per turn. Available with chivalry, expires with conscription.

Women's sufferage - Get rid of it. Replace with universal sufferage tech. Have police stations act as extra military units that work in representative governments.

The New Deal - Replaces Cure for Cancer. Available w/ Labor Union, which allows the tech to actually have a function (besides mech. inf.? Shouldn't that be with Combined Arms?)

The Great Polis - Available with philosophy. Allows city to receive the best benefits of all govts. If using SMAC-style Social E then removes all the negative effects of your SE choices for that city. 300 cost, does not expire, BUT fails to function once CAPTURED. Will not function again until all inhabitants are assimilated into your empire.

Apollo, Manhattan - Civ that builds may start construction 6 turns before other civs.

Darwin's V - Available with Magnetism.

Dome on the Rock - No expire. Avail. w/ Monotheism. 1 "content" person per city. All other civs w/Monotheism suffer 1 "unhappy" face per city that is size 4 or larger, x2 effect on theocratic govts., no effect on communist ones.

Ise Shrine - Like a 1/2 strength Oracle, +1 "content" citizen in cities with temples. However, effects last until RADIO.

Trans-Siberian Railroad (my version) - All your cities are immediately connected by rr's, if possible. 1/2 construction time of rr's by settlers/engineers. Available w/ Railroad, no expire.

Certain wonders are not "concrete" i.e. Darwin's, Marco Polo, Apollo Program, etc. These can only be captured by completely conquering the civilization that built them. If more than one civ is responsible for the conquest then the owner is determined (on a wonder by wonder basis) by % chance based on total # of enemy population captured in their cities. Concrete wonders, Great Wall, Pyramids, etc. add +5 trade to city after they expire, +2 trade per additional expired wonder in that city (tourism). Concrete wonders may be destroyed, but this will have severely negative diplomatic effects on relations with the previous owner.

Allow wonder effects to not be negated if the owning civ does not have diplomatic contact with the civ which received the negating technology (or whatever).

My votes to other's ideas,

programmable wonders (as above), turn-off wonders, natural wonders, alliance shared effects, alternates to shield production, wonders w/uni benefits (but the owner gets immediately, others receive much later), naming your own & landscape based

land-engineering, visible, culture defined, gradual obsolesence, wonder as civ-wide project

Wonder deterrents, disallow by race, evolving wonders (except tourism), re-buildable, cultural only, uncertain effects, cooperative building, special projects, delayed availability, no person-based


Certain wonders are more beneficial in certain worlds. Lighthouse, Magellan's are more beneficial in high water worlds than in low water ones. Marco's is better on large maps with many civs than in small maps with few civs. Civ3 should deal with this by changing the cost of wonders automatically after generating the world map.

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited June 14, 1999).]</font>
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Old June 14, 1999, 16:33   #3
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EnochF: thanks for all the work so far. I'd appreciate it if you would separate the comments about the Eiffel Tower from the list of suggested wonders, though, because the main point gets lost there. The main point is that the wonder is currently totally useless in MP and, for moderately experienced players, of extremely limited value against the AI. No experienced player ever builds it unless there's nothing else to do. There are undoubtedly countless ways the change the ET's effects to make it useful, and I gave my idea, which I appreciate that you included, but the important thing is just to change it.
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Old June 14, 1999, 16:45   #4
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[click, process]

Yeah, all right. I gave the Internet wonder its own section, so why not Eiffel Tower... hang on, let me edit what I've got here...

Okay, that was quick.

Theben, you're a good egg. Always ready to talk sense. I'll definitely incorporate your comments.

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by EnochF (edited June 14, 1999).]</font>
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Old June 14, 1999, 17:05   #5
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Great summary! Wheee! Some comments:

EnochF: Re harbours.. I work in halifax, which is the second largest harbour in the world, and generates great trade for us.. World's Largest Harbour is mentioned in the list as a pseudo-wonder.. what about making it a full fledged Natural Wonder, sicne we really can take no credit for it being so big ?

Theben: The trans siberian railroad sounds great, but is it maybe too powerful? RR's to all cities gives and enormous advantage on the defence, or on border wars. What if it allowed RR's to be build directly, without having to build a road first? Would encourage RR's to far off places (like Siberia, afterall).

Me: I'm rethinking my Sicence for Science wonders, Luxuries for Happy wonders.. Would this result in the rich getting richer? The civ with the most luxuries would have an advantage building a happy wonder, and would get even MORE luxuries. On the other hand, this could result in specialisation, rather than generalisation. A civ could be a real power on the diplomatic or science front, while it is resource poor. Need to think this one out a bit more...
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Old June 14, 1999, 20:54   #6
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Thanks. I should also say that I disapprove of world's greatest, just because I can see I lot of wasted production being poured into a minor effect, which would then negate it's usefulness to the game, which would then make it's presence pointless.
I changed the Eiffel Tower in my civ2 modpack to the Bill of Rights(avail. w/democracy, along w/SOL), which I believe would be more inspiring to other people than a hunk of steel. Perhaps additional game effects could be implemented with the diplomatic bonus-like the AI actually accepts your demands more often, or a luxury bonus in representative govts(w/Bill of Rights, that is).

The trans-rr might be a bit tough, but not overwhemingly. In the 1st place I am assuming that rr's in civ3 will not grant free movement but will instead drastically cut down on it (something like 1/12th point per square, and all units moving on rails would get the same amount of movement points. Check out don Don's MOVEMENT, SUPPLY, etc. thread). IMHO the SP's in SMAC are unbalancing. Get the weather paradigm, and ALL your terraforming times are reduced substantially which will make you pretty tough later in the game. Or play the UN and build the Human Genome, or Empath Guild!! Also consider that most players connect their cities by rail ASAP in civ2. All this does is speed up the process somewhat. Lastly, how many vet civ players on the "strategy" threads consider defensive fighting a good idea? They all mention offensive tactics.

Don't give up on the alternate to shield construction yet. True, not all science wonders would qualify, and I'm not sure any lux types would work. But some of those "non-concrete" wonders might fit.

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Old June 14, 1999, 21:08   #7
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I should also mention that building rails before building regular roads was discussed in don Don's thread (since rails often preceeded roads in many areas) and I support the idea. I hope I don't sound like I'm being defensive or attacking you by this long response to your critique, because I'm not; it just took awhile to explain where I'm coming from is all.
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Old June 15, 1999, 05:13   #8
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Theben: As far as World's Greatest goes, I could take or leave it. If done well, it would be a welcome expansion of the early game. Of course, your objection, that the shield cost would become overwhelming fairly soon, is in my mind a built-in limitation. After a certain point, it's just not worth the expense to build the tenth World's Greatest University. Banks and stock markets would be fairly useful even into the late game, though, as would palaces. Then there's the suggestion that the production cost not be doubled, but graded in 10% increases.

Bill of Rights... hey, I think I've got your modpack... the one with Timber Construction and Legionary Tactics, right? Come to think of it, a lot of the advances in your tech tree I've been listing off in the Technology thread, and I wasn't giving you credit because I didn't know the modpack was yours. Bugger. Sorry.
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Old June 15, 1999, 07:26   #9
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As my suggestion as to Great Leaders/Persons was almost last on v.1 of the bullentin board, I thought that I would explain it more than was provided in the summary.

Many of the wonders, seem very tangentially linked to the people and their work that the wonder is to represent. Examples of some of these include Shakespeare Theatre (it wasn;t even his and didn't only show his plays), Darwin's Voyage (he did not direct it but only made notes while on route), etc. I AM NOT saying that these people were not wonderous, becuase they were but it was the people and their ideas which are the key not the things that were construced in Civ II.

With this in mind how about an idea like this that combines some of the most interesting aspects of the Civ II scenarios and Colonization. Instead of some of the tangential "people" wonders, their might be a Great Person special unit/s for each civilization that MIGHT appear randomly throughout the game.

These units could be of several types:

1) Cultural/Scientific: great thinkers/creators that would act much like a wonder and double scientific bonus for a city. People such as these would include Einstein, Newton, etc.

2)Military: a great general or admiral that would offer either an defensive/offensive bonus while in a stack (like a General). Or perhaps they might add one movement to a land or sea stack. Examples of these would be any of the great generals in the Civ scenarios.

3) Political/Cultural: These people would provide a happiness bonsus for any city they were fortified in to replicate the ability of a determined politican to lead their people when all seems lost or to inspire the people with their art. Examples of this might include, Churchill, Gandhi, Lincoln, Lenin, Mao, Shakespeare, Micheangelo etc.

These units could not be rebuilt once destroyed and would match the time & Age in
which they arrived. Moreover they would last only as long as that Age to represent their life span and the transitvity of their genuis.

I'm not saying that all the wonders that are tied to people be eliminated becuase sometimes, the wonder does transcend the person (perhaps Micheangelo's Chapel).

Benefits of a mixed person, Wonder system include:

1) no need to come up with strange wonders to fit in a worthy candidate.

2) no arbitrary obsolence technologies that everyone argues about, their would be a natural obsolence.

3) The ability of an enemy to destroy the great leader by attacking the city and permaturely ending their benefit but the counter-ability to have the leader flee to another city and 'fight another day.'

4) Due to the randomness of their appearance and the varied great leaders one could program for each civ, this would ensure that every game was special and different. Games would no longer be a mechanical, get x tech, change to government y, make z wonder. Thus replay ability would be increased.

Additionally, this system could be tweaked so that the randomness of the appearance of the Great Person could be relected by your style of play and choices, e.i. no Churchill if you are a fascist government, more chance of Shakespeare with more theatres etc.

I think that this might be a good idea, it is relistic, fun and easy to implement. Any comments?

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Old June 15, 1999, 07:39   #10
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Just on the issue of wonders that reflect a great achievement, such as Magnellan's expedidition, the Red-Line (the British Empire's unbroken telegraph system that crossed the Globe and went only through international (sea) and UK/Dominion held territory that linked London with the world), the Grand Canal (built by China many centuries ago), Trans-Siberian Railroad, Polar Expeditions, what if the benfit of the wonder went to the first civ that actually completed the act. (my apologies to the person who mentioned this first but it is a great idea!).

Thus, +2 movement for circumnavigation, +1 defence for any civ for Listening Posts (CTP) that circumnavigate the globe, +1 food on all canals for the first civ that builds a canal X long, +.6 movement for first railway x squares long, +1000 gold for discovering North & South poles, etc.

Two wonders not on the List which might be included in some fashion:

1) Crystal Place: a extermely large building of glass and iron constructed for the World's Exhibition in the 1850s, which demonstrated the pre-eminence of british industry and techinical skill.

2) Red-Line: (discussed above)
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Old June 15, 1999, 09:17   #11
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I was the one to suggest it, and those ideas are great! Would encourage exploration in the later game.

Main problem is that some are too easy to do. The Poles do not exist on the Civ Globes, and the ice caps are easy to get to.

Also, a tech limiting factor is needed, or else a licky trireme could get Magelleans Expedition in the very early days.. maybe something like first circumnavigation after the discovery of Steam?

I'd also like to see the discovery of a new continent be something more momentous.
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Old June 15, 1999, 09:47   #12
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Don't worry about it EnocF, especially since I never posted my modpack. You have someone elses.

Interesting idea on the person wonders. I have an idea for 'leader' units and your suggestions would help.
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Old June 15, 1999, 13:19   #13
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Maybe I'm asking alot, but could you post (as briefly as possible) the justification for ideas, where it isn't obvious. I mean, it's obvious why it would be cool to have the option to turn off wonders, or Natural Wonders. But some of these ideas really puzzle me, like advocating a random chance that the Lighthouse burns out, or leo's doesn't upgrade a unit, etc.

Was there alot of discussion that WOWs are too powerful? If so, I'm surprised. B/c only Sun Tzu and the Great Wall, of the WOWs, does anything to prevent me from taking a Wonder City.
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Old June 15, 1999, 14:29   #14
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Yeah, people are nuts, that's all I have to say. A lot of power gamers and military strategists think the Wonders are way too powerful, that they overshadow all aspects of gameplay, and would rather play Civ without Wonders at all. I often get the impression they'd rather play without economics, too. Or city management. Or space travel. In fact, they'd rather play Age of Empires over the Internet.
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Old June 15, 1999, 16:42   #15
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EnochF--If I'm understanding your post correctly (you weren't being facetious, right?), the main objection was that WOWs divert shields from what these guys really want to use them for, which is building military units.

If that's the case, you're right, these folks need to find another game. WOWs tend to increase your happiness or your science. That's why I like them--they balance out the purely military aspects of the game.
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Old June 16, 1999, 05:33   #16
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Old June 16, 1999, 10:18   #17
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Dear Theben,

I would be glad to help in any way possible.
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Old June 16, 1999, 10:20   #18
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No, EnochF, you misunderstood my point. It was that SPIES would destroy wonders, much like they would destroy buildings in CIV2. This would of course be atrocity.
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Old June 16, 1999, 11:29   #19
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I like the idea of benefits for performing "feats" like circumnavigation. As for N/S pole, benefit goes to the civ which first sends a unit from point A back to point A on each cap, where the unit crosses the prime meridian and doesn't re-cross. This might be a touch easy, though--in the current AI I don't think any civ but humans ever explore the poles.
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Old June 16, 1999, 11:59   #20
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Francis--remember, AI triremes are unsinkable. OTOH, the AI doesn't plan or think very well about distances.
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Old June 17, 1999, 00:01   #21
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Stefu: Okay, my bad. I just went back and re-read your suggestion in Wonders 1.1 and saw the quote, "How about the spy option of Destroy Wonder?" By now, though, yin has already gotten the suggestion list with the modified version of the Destroy Wonder suggestion. I'll definitely make the change for the next round of suggestions. This is, after all, an evolving process. And if things go according to plan, we'll be able to base our next round of suggestions on some official feedback from Firaxis. In fact, strictly speaking, I should probably move on to the new 2.0 thread now...
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