TECHNOLOGY(v1.6)- hosted by SnowFire

SnowFire · June 3, 1999, 21:45

Continued from <a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000089.html">Technology 1.5</a>. Older threads may be found at <a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000079.html">Technology 1.4</a>, <a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000038.html">Technology 1.2</a>, and <a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000006.html">Technology 1.1</a>.

Welcome to the Technology 1.6 Thread. In response to popular demand, the summary has been chopped up into more categories. Still doesn't mean it's perfect though; keep posting suggestions on not just how to make technology better, but to make the letter/summary better.

And as a reminder, I will not try to squash or destroy your idea; but I will try and summarize them fairly and impartialy here in the summary and in the final letter to Brian.

Section I: The Research Process (How do I do research into technology?)

1) MULTIPLE TOPIC RESEARCH -- Many of the following ideas require that you be able to research several ideas at once. There must be some advantage to researching things in parallel rather than serially, or else no one will do it.

2) TECHNOLOGICAL FIELDS -- Many of the following ideas require that the techs be placed into a small number of broad categories. So far, the suggestions have been: Philosophy, Agriculture & Biology, Economics, Math & Physics, and Psychology. Effort should probably be made to make the different fields roughly equal in terms of number and usefulness of techs (trying to put the old tech tree into these categories give Math&Physics a big advantage...)

3) DEVELOPMENT INERTIA -- It doesn't make sense that the same researchers who just gave you "Nuclear Fission" would be able to turn around and give you "Television, because they are only peripherally related. Scientists are specialized, and can't easily be pushed around to different fields. You should have multiple "teams", each of which is working on a different project. When they are done with one, they will research a second project in the same field at a faster rate than an unrelated field (or pay a higher cost to research an "outside our expertise" field -- the effect is the same). See 16 for a similar idea.

4) RESEARCH PRIORITY SLIDER BARS WITH 'INERTIA' -- There should be several fields of research (see item 2) and you can set different allocations for the different fields (e.g. 25% of research points to Philosophy, 25% to Ag, 50% to Econ.) representing the number of scientists in that field and the money/work poured into it. However, whenever you change the allocation, you take a hit to the "efficiency" at which you research the topic you changed(i.e. number of research points per turn decreases), which is proportional to the magnitude of the change. This "efficiency hit" gradually diminishes over time until your society reaches "scientific equilibrium" at the new settings. This effect is likely to result in a "character" for different civs, because some will emphasize one field over another depending on their AI, and be unlikely to change because of the cost.

5) TECHNOLOGICAL "FIELDS" CONTAINING MINOR TECHS- 15-20 general fields of science are created to look into, like "Medicine," Agriculture," "Industrialization," and "Metallurgy," each containing many, many minor techs. You can choose which field (or fields, under option 1) you want to research (And, under ideas 2 &4, perhaps you research 3 fields at once each in different categories with different amounts of work on each), and you get minor techs from that field until you switch. This allows a far, far greater amount of minor techs (in Medicine alone, you might have "Anatomy," "Germ Theory," "Antiseptics," "Circulation of Blood..." It also allows you to have some direction to your research, but have some element of randomness still exist (see OFFSHOOT TECHS idea for a similar idea).

6) "GATEWAY" TECHS- If you have an era system (Antiquity, Renaissance, Industrial, Modern?), there should be a "gateway" tech for each new era that allows it to truly flourish. If you haven't researched that tech, then all other techs of the same era cost double the amount (or some other penalty). So researching The Corporation before Railroads will be possible, but expensive (if Railroads is the gateway tech to the Industrial era).

7) AI TECH TRADING INTELLIGENCE -- Make sure that the AIs only make tech trades that make sense. Why trade for "Mass Transit" if you don't have "Automobile"?

8) STARTING POSITION DEPENDENT CIV SPECIALTIES -- When a civ is placed on the map, give it a tech specialty. This solves the problem of saying "the Phoenicians should get a seafaring bonus because they had a maritime empire" by instead giving a civ that starts close to water a maritime bonus (and if that happened to be the Phoenicians, then you could play the Phoenicians like the existed historically, although hopefully they'd last longer

). A tech specialty would be a small bonus to research in related fields (or simply a higher beginning allocation to a certain field, if the RESEARCH PRIORITY SLIDER BARS WITH 'INERTIA' system is used). The bonus should disappear in modern times. (not necessary with SLIDER BAR system) Maybe give user the option to decide which type of place to start in, so that he or she can determine character of civ?

9) HISTORICAL ERA SHOULD PLAY A ROLE -- Since in ancient times scholars studied a wide variety of fields (they were real Renaissance men

) it makes sense to have tech specialization only play a role in more modern types of research (e.g. an ancient Greek philosopher might have contemplated both the role and practice of government as well as the laws of motion).

10) FAMOUS SCIENTISTS -- Scientific personalities, such as Einstein or Pasteur might provide some "flavor" to the scientific experience. Maybe these are random events that give you one time bonuses? ("Pasteur has established a laboratory in Paris, science output doubles in Paris for one turn" or something).

11) SERENDIPITOUS ADVANCES -- Technology discovered "accidentally". Basically a random event that gives you a tech advance.

12) TECHS SHOULD BE HARDER TO RESEARCH -- It is unrealistic for a civ to have the ability to realistically research every tech in the game without help -- historically nobody has developed everything. Techs should have a higher cost relative to the number of research points that are expected to be produced by an empire than in previous games. Another poster says this feature takes away the option if isolationism. Ideas?

Section II: The Tech Tree (How do I get specific techs?)

20) LOTS OF TECHS -- Some people think we need lots, and I mean LOTS of techs. Others think that too many techs may be bad, because they would grow hard to differentiate. Another problem is that lots of techs would also mean lots of techs with no immediate help from them, aside from them being pre-requisites to other techs. Many of the tech suggestions below depend on this system.

21) MULTIPLE PREREQS -- More than just two should be possible. This suggestion is probably implicit in some of the more ambitious prereq schemes.

22) MULTIPLE PATHS TO A PARTICULAR ADVANCE -- Instead of having rigid prerequisites that demand that a civ follow a particular research path to get to a tech, allow several different ways to achieve a particular advance. There are several alternatives...

23) BOOLEAN PREREQS -- The prerequisites should be specified with Boolean logic, i.e. AND, OR, NOT. For example, the prerequisite for "Labor Union" might be "Capitalism" and "Assembly Line", because the workers band together naturally to fight for rights, OR "Communism" and "Mass Media", because the communist activists are able to convince large numbers of workers to bargain collectively. However, "Capitalism" and "Mass Media" wouldn't do anything to advance "Labor Unions" without the other techs. -- Labor Union <= (Capitalism AND Assembly Line) OR (Communism AND Mass Media).

24) PREREQUISITE POINTS -- In this suggestion, different technologies each contribute a certain point value to satisfying the prerequisite of a follow-on technology. For example, If you were interested in researching "Trench Warfare", you might need to gather 10 prereq points, where "Machine Guns" would give you 4, "Artillery" would give you 7, "Chemical Warfare" would give you 3, and "Conscription" would give you 3. Supporters of this concept argue that many of the other suggestions in this list can be incorporated into this new scheme (for example, DIPLOMATIC SYNNERGY can be implemented by giving you a prereq point for having diplomatic relations with a civ that already has the tech in question) and that it will allow multiple different strategies, making the new complexity worthwhile. Others oppose the system because it seems too complex. The debate rages Sorry, still not an optimal explanation. I'd like to have a better example -- Bell, can you come up with one, preferably using techs we are familiar with from Civ or SMAC, not very low level like longbow/crossbow, so people can relate a bit more easily?

25) PREREQUISITE EQUIVALENCE -- instead of having a hard and fast prerequisite, allow some of them to be 'equivalence classed'. For example, if you wanted to develop "Technocracy", you need the advance on "Microchip", as well as knowledge of three government types, such as "Democracy", "Fascism", and "Monarchy".

26) REDUNDANT TECHS -- have multiple different ways to achieve the same in-game effect (say, a 2-1-1 unit or a "makes one unhappy person content" building) with different technological paths (for example, either "Religious Fanaticism" or "Professional Standing Army" techs might allow the 2-1-1 unit over the 1-1-1 unit). This allows different civilizations to take a less "cookie-cutter" approach to technological development, since there are no longer an "vital" technologies. (Maybe this and MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE TECHNOLOGY are redundant, or at least related?)

27) MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE TECHNOLOGY -- Developing one technology might not make sense when another one already existed. "Green Industries" and "Advanced Toxic Waste Disposal" might be examples of this.

28) RANDOM TECH TREE!!!! -- As long as there are multiple paths to each tech, there can be a probability that each path may or may not exist in a particular game. This adds to the excitement, and also the realism, since you can never quite be sure what your scientists will come up with until they come up with it. This is probably more easily accomplished if the REDUNDANT TECHS idea is implemented, since there is less likelihood of a civ being stranded without easy access to an important feature.

29) OFFSHOOT TECHS -- Minor technologies related to Major Technologies (i.e. Major techs are the ones we are familiar with) that are received as a random bonus for researching the Major Tech. They're not available every game, and only give a small bonus. Example: Researching "Warrior Code" might give you "Longbow" technology, which would give you better archers. Hypothetically these "minor techs" could be linked to specific civs to give them "character".

30) FORBID 'OUT-OF-ORDER' TECH -- If you don't have the prereqs for a tech, you shouldn't be able to use it, even if you trade for it, etc. If (through some quirk of fate) Columbus has plans for an A-Bomb, and traded them to the Native Americans he met, it is unlikely that they would have been able to nuke Europe, since they didn't have the infrastructure to make use of the idea. Suggested enhancement to this suggestion -- link things to "literacy", or possibly "era" (e.g. bronze-age tribe can't use Renaissance idea).

31) CONCEPTS vs. APPLICATIONS -- Instead of an "all techs are equivalent" way of looking at the world, break techs into "concepts" and "applications". A "concept" might be "Gunpowder", while an "application" might be "Musket" or "Tunnel Construction". The application techs would all have a concept tech as a prerequisite, and the concept techs only (mostly?) have other concepts as their prereqs. This way, a civ can be very advanced in general principles, or concentrate on developing known techniques. This might reflect the differences between invention and innovation.

32) RANDOMIZED APPLICATIONS -- Techs shouldn't always give you the same benefit. Some games, a specific tech might give you a particular unit, in others it might give you a building, etc. Or, after developing the technology, you have to pay money to actually develop each separate application of the technology, or at least pay a prototype fee. See 43.

33) ARMS RACES -- There should be more differentiation between "identical" techs. All of the major powers had "tanks" in World War II, but the designs of some countries were superior to those of others. (How might this be implemented without too much micromanagment? Since the rate of "obsolescence" is relatively quick, would this effect be too small to bother modeling in Civ III?)

34) MAKE TECH TREE REFLECT GAME SITUATION -- the current game situation should affect the tech tree. A land-locked civ is unlikely to develop "Navigation", and a civ with poor mineral resources is unlikely to develop "Advanced Mining".

35) SUPPORTING TECHS FOR OTHER IDEAS IN OTHER THREADS -- Some ideas in other threads give new abilities (such as specific types of specialist citizens) so it makes sense to have techs that bestow these abilities.

The Techs Themselves...

Currently existing advances are in quotes.

40) TECH ADVANCES TIED TO GAME FEATURES -- Features such as 'borders' should only be enables once the appropriate tech is discovered. See point 35 for an example.

41) RESOURCE LIMITATION LIFTING TECHS -- In SMAC there were some techs that you needed to research before you could gather more than 2 resources of each type. While an interesting idea, the implementation in SMAC was too limiting. The techs which lifted the limits were too indispensable, and came in too late, often choking off an empire until they could be found. Perhaps there should be a more gentle gradation over the ages? I'd like to include some concrete suggestions for improving this. Shining1 suggested that resource limits should be a function of Social Engineering. Other thoughts?.

42) TECHS SHOULD HAVE SOME 'BASIC' BENEFIT -- Each tech should have some effect of the 'basic' parameters of a civ, the kind of things that are likely to be influenced by Social Engineering (e.g. "Trade" should benefit your Economy rating, and "Crop Rotation" should benefit your Growth).

43) AN OPTION FOR A LESS 'MECHANISTIC' WORLDVIEW -- Some people feel that Civ emphasis science and technology, not allowing for the possibility of a civilization that has a less mechanistic worldview, and focuses instead on other pursuits, like philosophy or psychology. Is this workable? Suggestions? Could this have happened, even if it didn't historically?

44) MORE EMPHASIS ON FOOD MAKING TECHS -- Plants cultivation, Farming, Irrigation, Genetic manipulation... see 41 for what purpose they would serve.

45) GREATER EMPHASIS ON THE ARTS -- The tech tree in general focuses on military hardware and hard science, leaving the Arts somewhat unaddressed (this suggestion probably needs to be fleshed out more). more than a few posters question whether this is a good suggestion.

46) MAKE ARTS ADVANCES 'SCORE BOOSTERS' -- Maybe Art and Culture advances should simply be score boosters (like "Future Tech") or one time benefits.

47) TECHNOLOGY SHOULD INCREASE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF ENTERTAINERS -- Certain technologies should enhance the effectiveness of your "entertainer" specialists in the city screen (e.g. Television).

[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited June 03, 1999).]

SnowFire · June 3, 1999, 21:52

Issues of Technology Cost:

50) HAVE THE NUMBER OF TECH POINTS REQUIRED FOR A TECH BE FIXED INSTEAD OF RELATIVE -- Pottery should not be just as hard to research as Nuclear Fission, even if you are actively researching them both in 1945. Basing the number of research points needed for a particular tech on the number of techs you already possess can lead to ridiculous situations like that, like in CivX. Instead, if using the SMAC chart, make all techs labeled as level one cost 50, level 3's cost 400, level 5 techs cost 1500, etc.

51) DIFFERENT COST FOR 'TRAILBLAZERS' AND 'FOLLOWERS' -- Civs who research a tech already discovered should get a bonus on the cost of researching it, since pioneering new technology is hard, while reproducing an already known advance is easier (Maybe the extent of the bonus should be based on civs you have diplomatic contact with, and the extent of that conflict? It doesn't do you much good if a tribe on the other side of the planet discovers the wheel, but you never hear about it...)-SF & Octo

52) LESS DETERMINISTIC RESEARCH PROGRESS -- Instead of just "100 Research Points gets you an advance" it should be "There is a number close to 100 Research Points that will give you the technology, here's our rough estimates for when we hit it". This way you can have a rough idea of when you will discover a new technology, but you can never be exactly sure because there is an element of uncertainty, just like science in the real world.

53) TECH SYNERGY -- you can research multiple techs simultaneously, and researching related techs provides synergistic effects, i.e. researching "Physics" and "Calculus" together would get you done faster than researching "Physics" and "Communism", since the results of one field are applicable to the other.

54) RESEARCH SYNERGY THROUGH DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS -- We should get bonuses to our technology development rate if we are on friendly diplomatic terms with other civs researching similar technology because of international science conferences, wider circulation technical journals, access to each other's research, etc.

55) TECH BLEED -- Scientific Advances should be able to "leak out" from high-tech civs to low-tech civs, giving the civ that lacks the technologies the high-tech civ has bonuses on researching it. The rate of leakage should be proportional to the age of the tech (If we drove up to a stone-age tribe they would probably realize the significance of our advanced "wheel" technology before we even got out of the car...) and also proportional to the level of diplomatic relations (if we constantly interact with another society, we are likely to be more familiar with their technology). This is quite similar to point 6.

56) REVERSE ENGINEERING -- Fighting and destroying or capturing enemy units with superior technology should aid in the discovery of that technology with bonuses on the tech cost.

57) BASIC THEORETICAL RESEARCH -- Have some research points devoted to "basic research" that isn't likely to produce any specific advances (i.e. won't give you a specific building or unit or something), but which enhance research in other areas (e.g. research in "Basic Physics" might enhance the speed at which you research "Lasers", "Nuclear Fission", and "Nuclear Fusion", but you could achieve those advances without doing the basic research, just at a higher cost. This would be a tradeoff -- Do I want Fission now, or do I want to invest a little more up front, and be sure of getting all three sooner in the long run, even though I wouldn't get any specific advance until later).

58) MAXIMUM RESEARCH RATE -- Have a maximum rate at which research can be accumulated. No amount of "prodding" will enable your scientists to research faster than some basic human limit (probably limited by communication in the real world, what game effect should limit this?) This is handled quite handily by the "efficiency" theory of tech being applied not just to changes in tech, but to changes in the tech rate over the whole empire (if the CivII/SMAC system is used). Just as in SMAC, if you devote 90% of your economy to research, you will go far past the point of declining returns. However, over time, the inefficiency penalty would decrease.-SF

Science and it's relationship with Infrastructure and Society:

60) DIFFERENTIATED 'SCIENCE BUILDINGS' -- Have buildings which enhance the scientific output of a city differentiated: You have your choice of a Physics Lab, a Biological Research Hospital, etc., which only add their bonus when the city is contributing to the appropriate kind of research.

61) DIFFERENTIATED 'SCIENCE BUILINDS' ALTERNATIVE- If the system described in 2 is used, when a new library is built, it can be dedicated to one of the five categories of science. When a university is built, one more discipline can be added. These disciplines get bonuses in research done at the city, in addition to the library and university's normal effect. Then, the bonus in research provided by other buildings (like Nuclear Plant: Normal Effect. Adds +50% to Math & Physics research, if the city has M&P as one of its specialties at the library or university. Research Hospital: Normal Effect, and same as Nuclear Plant except with Biology. Capitol: +100% to Philosophy. Etc.)

62) DIFFERENT BUILDINGS HELP WITH DIFFERENT KINDS OF RESEARCH -- Barracks can conduct military research, temples can conduct religious/philosophical research, all independent of the normal science output (similar to the Biology Lab in SMAC- a set +2 Research/Turn, in a specific category of science. See idea #2).

63) HAVE GOVERNMENT/DIPLOMATIC CHOICES AFFECT TECH DEVELOPMENT -- Would a Fundamentalist government like to research "Genetic Engineering"? Link penalties on the costs of certain techs to social engineering, due to opposition from scientists.

64) TECH PRESERVATION -- If a civ doesn't work to maintain a technology (e.g. by building libraries) they should lose the tech. This can simulate the Dark Ages. Perhaps this can be a randomized global event (Dark Ages descend upon world!), similar to the "Loss of technology research at base x! Build a network node to prevent this!" except, say, every 10% of your population without a library loses you one tech.

65) LOCATION DEPENDENT RESEARCH LABS -- Research is done in labs and universities, and labs and universities have to actually exist somewhere. If you are counting on your scientists who are developing "Nuclear Fission" to win the war for you, but the city they are conducting the research in gets captured, you should be up a creek... Isn't this already in CivX? Lose an important science city, be up a creek?

66) FACTION/CIVILIZATION SPECIFIC TECH TREES -- different cultures look at the world in different ways, so it wouldn't be surprising to see that they would follow different paths or discover different technologies in different orders. (concerns over accusations of unfairness and "racism" abound, not to mention game balancing...)

Game Options set at the Beginning of the Game:

70) DIFFERENT TECH DIFFICULTY SETTINGS- There should be 2 or 3 difficulty levels of research systems, say "Novice Research," "Standard Research," and "Advanced Research." It's easier for beginners, and more realistic and challenging for veterans.

73) BLIND TECH -- People seem to either love or hate the blind research from SMAC.

74) BLIND 'HISTORICAL' TECH -- research follow Blind Tech model up until Industrialization, after which the player can use the Directed model, emulating the superior control and direction that people have over scientific discovery with modern methods.

75) BLIND 'HISTORICAL' TECH ALTERNATIVE -- Have a 'ratio' which controls how many techs you get to pick. When you first start, all of your tech choices are blind. Then after some time, you get to pick every 4th tech. Then every 3rd tech, etc., so you start with no control but eventually get complete control. Perhaps the changes from every 4th to every 3rd to every other be controlled by specific advances? (The
University: May pick every other tech from now on?)

76) DOWNLOADING TECHS -- Some would like it if Firaxis periodically expands the tech tree by posted new techs on the website to incorporate into the game (Could this be done without ruining play balance?)

Things NOT to do:

80) HAVE OVERBROAD TECHS -- For example, "Industrialization" encompasses many things (technical, social, and economic), and should not be lumped into a single tech. This is assuming the current CivX system (under point 5's suggestion, it would be the exact opposite- you'd want broad techs with many facets).

81) SENSIBLE TECH/ADVANCE CORRELATION -- Certain advances were linked to techs that really didn't make sense, e.g. "Labor Union" and "Mechanized Infantry".

82) SCIENCE CITY IMPROVEMENTS MORE IMPORTANT FOR SCIENCE THAN ECONOMIC BUILDINGS -- Apparently in CtP, buildings which boost your economic output are more worthwhile for your research progress than Libraries and such. That's bad.

83) SPACING OF TECHS IN THE TREE -- Make sure that the techs are judiciously placed in the tree so we don't have too few in one era and too many in another. Try to keep it balanced (no jumps from Knights to Tanks, like in CivI).

SnowFire · June 3, 1999, 21:58

Actual Techs Suggested

Many of these techs are narrow enough that they would only be palatable as "minor techs" as described in idea #29 or under the system in point 5. Also note that I mention some CivX, but not mentioning one doesn't mean it shouldn't go in- they're just offered as extras, to put the rest in context. These are supposed to be mainly the new ideas. In any case, grouped by rough categories (which might be the "fields" described under point 5):

Arts Techs so far:
Music -- A dead end tech that adds +50% to the effectiveness of entertainers. So an entertainer gains an early boost of +100% with the discover of music and construction of a market place. Since music has been around since the beginning of civilization, many dispute the need to actually research it.

History

Literature

Rhetoric

Sculpture

Mathematics Techs:
Algebra- The lowest level math discovered.

Calculus- Vital for physics research.

And computers, a subcategory of Math:
Programming -- the art/science of making computers do what you want.

Systems Analysis -- (what exactly would this do that can be modeled on a civ-wide scale?)

Computing Machine -- A mechanical or electrical device that demonstrates that arithmetic and logical tasks can be done by machines. Examples would be an adding machine or a punch-card sorter. This would be a pre-req for...

Stored Program Computer -- A device which maintains its instruction sequence in a dynamic storage medium (e.g. the DRAM in the computer you're using right now). Allows much more flexibility than a direct input computing machine.

The Transistor -- Among other things, can be used to build digital logic circuits. The transistor is the basis for all modern computers. Integrated Circuits (ICs) use transistors to accomplish most of thier functions. The Transistor is what made the "Information Age" possible.

Vacuum Tubes -- Among other things, can be used to build digital logic circuits. Vacuum Tubes were the basis for the first electronic computers. (This is an excellent candidate for some of the prereq ideas -- Transistors and Vacuum Tubes are mostly unrelated technologies that both allow computers, but the Transistor has other benefits. So the prereq for "Computers" might be "Computing Machine AND Vacuum Tubes OR Computing Machine AND Transistors", but you need "Transistor AND Computers" for Microprocessors. )

High Level Programming Languages -- Give the user an easier way to program computers.

Engineering techs:
Simple Machines -Another very basic tech that would be discovered soon into Engineering research.

Masonry- As in CivX.

Architecture- Is this the same as "Construction?"

Plumbing- A Pre-req to Sanitation, probably.

Clockwork

Gearworks -not so sure exactly what is meant here...

Gunnery- early muskets.

Fortifications- Another more specific minor tech to add.

Electric Light -- This would probably be a minor tech in addition to electricity that improves the living standard of homes, is my guess.

Ceramics- Usable in everything from shells to rockets.

Internal Combustion Engine -- A pre-req to "Automobile," perhaps.

Satellites- Let's see the whole map revealed, not just the enemy cities (like in CivI)!

Physics Techs so Far:

Electromagnetism- One important branch of classical physics.

Thermodynamics - Another one.

Optics- Yet another one.

Relativity - Perhaps the most important concept in modern physics. Good pre-req for nuclear power.

And Astronomy Techs, a subcategory of Physics:
Astrology- Is this the same as mysticism, or considered something developed after mysticism to allow astronomy?

Orbital Mechanics- Very high level astronomy, traveling into space.

Chemistry Techs:
Periodic Table -- An important advance in chemistry. Realizing the "order" of chemical elements allowed discovery of new ones and prediction of their properties. Aided understanding of underlying theory of chemistry.

Industrial Chemistry -- A minor tech after chemistry that gives a slight bonus to factories.

Physical Chemistry

Organic Chemistry

Biology Techs:

Genetics/Inheritance Theory- Gregor Mendel style understanding of inheritance

Evolution- Perhaps it would also cause slightly less effective churches as a side effect.

DNA- enhanced genetic theory.

Genetic Engineering- As in CivX.

Botany

The Sub-category of Medicinal Techs:
Lens Grinding- A pre-req to Germ Theory?

Anatomy

Germ Theory- Diseases aren't caused by demons getting into your body after you sneeze.

Circulation of Blood- We don't keep on creating the stuff, it's the same stuff recycled over and over.

Surgery- cutting people up to make them healthy. In early years, mostly limited to amputations, etc

Antiseptics- Insures they don't die after the surgery's done, probably more important than Surgery itself (IMHO).

Physiology

Immunization

Antibiotics

And Agricultural Techs:
Artificial Fertilizers- Improve food production at the expense of money and industrial pollution?

Herbal Remedies- These have been around since the Stone Age. Not sure if you should need to research these.

Cash Crops -- farm goods which are grown primarily for export because they can command a high price, not because of their local food value. Coffee, cotton, and tobacco might be examples. They might allow you to turn excess food into money.

Crop Rotation -- Important agricultural concept. Improves farm productivity.

Mechanical Farming

Cotton gin

Economics Techs:
Currency- As in CivX.

Credit

Capital Markets -Using the minor nations idea, perhaps this could allow ruthless trade policies and imperialist economies.

Keynesian Economics -- The notion that government fiscal (i.e. taxes and spending) policy should be used to limit the effects of the business cycle: low spending during boom years, high spending during recession/depression.

Mercantilism- Running Imperialist Economies. Works great if the "minor nation" idea from other threads is included.

Venture Capitalism

Mercenary Warfare- Not sure if this should need to be researched, but buying armies is always nice...

Multinational Corporation

Advertisement

Tourism

Metallurgical Techs:
Copper Smelting- A very very early tech.

(plus all the standard ones, like Bronze Working, Iron Working...)

Everything else suggested:
Standing Army -- The army is composed of professional soldiers employed by the state, not just regular citizens who grabbed weapons to support the war effort, and then went back to their lives afterward.
Oceanography
Geology
Geography
Potter's Wheel
Painting
Weaving
The Loom -- important for weaving
cement/concrete
Legalized Prostitution
Prohibition
Gun Control
Fireworks
lightbulbs
hot air balloons
tanning
Enviornmentalism subcategory: hydrogeology, exotoxicology, bioremedition, extinction prevention, contaminated land reclamation
Animal Domestication
Mass Communication
Submersibles
Microbotics (little robots), Astrobotics (space robots?), Hydrobotics (water robots?).
Brewing-- Makes beer. While discovered by many civilizations, why exactly would you want to discover this? {/editorial mode}
Agricultural Investment
Training
Mobilization
Urbanization
Regulation
Revolution
The Pump
Calendar
the chimney/fireplace
Social Reform
Women's Movement
Aristocracy
Total War
Environmental Ethics
Entrepenurialism
Globalization
Humanism
Empiricism
Nuclear Disarmament
Art of War
Rationalization
The Enlightenment
Money Economy
Nuclear Deterrence
Nuclear Warfighting
Nuclear Defense

Futuristic Techs, possibly realistic:
cloning, orbital construction, commercial spacefaring, wakeways, artificial intelligence, spaceport, xenobiology (exobiology), terraforming, eugenics, metallic foam, neural interface, nanotechnology, laser induced fusion, zero point energy, hydroponics, microgee agriculture, xenopsychology, cryogenics, nanomedicine (cell repair), personality constructs, mass drivers (without aliens, xenobiology is mostly useless, xenopsychology even more so , what is practical application of cryogenics in game terms? -Octo

Futuristic Techs and realism questionable:
warp drive, psychohistory, robopsychology, ICE, eptification, elite conscription, phaser, turbolaser, artificial gravity (antigravity), universal translator, scrith, hyperatomic motivator, twin ion engine, liquid metal (mimetic polyalloy), positronic matrix, spindizzy generator, planckscale machines, antimatter containment, ekumen, matter replication, Anti- anything (matter, gravity, reality...), Kinetic Weapons (????), Inertia Nullification (thanks to the space operas of E.E. "Doc" Smith) (I don't know what a lot of these are, and a lot of the ones I do know are definitely impossible in the "real world")-Octo

Parts of this are horribly wrong and need correcting? Great! Post now and tell us what your idea is to make this list better, which is our only goal here.

By the way, EnochF, I have your list of technologies and Harel's revisions... what should I do with them? I'm kind of uneasy about posting the entire thing into the summary. Perhaps if you posted A. What techs you killed from CivII and B. What techs you added so it could be added in a more conventional manner?

-------------
SnowFire, Technology Thread-Master.

[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited June 03, 1999).]

Shining1 · June 3, 1999, 22:17

Woah. That's a lot of stuff.

(Remember, Harel, BR only really needs to read this once, in it's final form.)

Snowfire: Obviously it's a mammoth task doing this summary. Hats off all round.

yin26 · June 3, 1999, 22:19

SnowFire:

Damn good work. Damn good!

meowser · June 3, 1999, 23:59

Here's a suggestion for 33:

Maybe this should be suggested in units also. You guys decide.

Let construction of units be dependent on 4 things:

1. The technology advance
2. The city improvement
3. A slider bar indicating production ratio of quantity vs. quality.
4. Experimentation.

For example:

1. In order to build a tank, I must have knowledge of the correct advance that allows the construction of tanks. This advance could be say tank warfare for example.

2. In order to build this tank a city MUST first HAVE a factory. To produce a better tank the city must have both a factory and a manufacturing plant.

3. When the player decides to build this tank, there is an option to move the slider bar between quality or quantity (the default being in the middle). Obviously if the indicator is set to quality it would cost more, take longer to build and have more of whatever(like movement points, increased radar range, etc).

4. Experimentation can occur only for advances that lead to the creation of new units.

After researching tank warfare, the player should have the option to divert a percentage of his research to experimentation of this advance to attain an even better/efficient/(cost effective)tank. This will be called tank warfare experimentation.

There should be a defined cost and limit as to how far experimentation can go. Once you have reached this limit, no more experimentation can be done.

The player should also be able to come back to a list and see what he can still experiment on should they decide to forgo this option to concentrate resources on new advances (and as long as they haven't reached this limit).

There should probably be intervals known as "a breakthrough" (For example, there could be manufacturing and production breakthroughs, that lower the cost of producing the unit; aerordynamic design breakthroughs that increase movement; ballistic breakthroughs that give an increase in hit multiplier) that define the experiments. These "breakthroughs" should be general so as to accomodate a wide range of units. Hmm, may be these three I mentioned would suffice.

Furthermore maybe there could be pushbuttons indicating which "breakthroughs" you want to go for and have it so that there is a default setting (maybe ballistic breakthrough) to offset micromanagement.

Thus if you want the best possible unit for your money, you would need to do all of this. You'll have to weigh the advantages/disadvantages.

meowser · June 4, 1999, 01:06

Hmm, maybe we could call experimentation, something else, like advanced experimentation, or technology specialization, or advanced refinement so as not to confuse between this and regular research. Maybe experimentation is okay. What do you guys think? For now, I think I should be getting to bed. This is what I get for staying up past my bed time.

EnochF · June 4, 1999, 11:47

Oh, er, as long as the technologies in my list make it into the summary, I'm happy. They did, didn't they...? I suppose I'll check. Dreary task, really...

Okay, just checked.

Looks like a handful didn't make it in. I'll have to read my posting to find out which ones...

[This message has been edited by EnochF (edited June 04, 1999).]

Back again. Okay, it looks like these few weren't in the summary:

aerodynamics (level of flight on a level somewhere between Leonardo's sketches and Kitty Hawk)
alloys
arithmetic
artificial selection (selective breeding of livestock, even horses, pack animals, etc.)
ballistics (very important military technology for the Romans and others: the ballista was a superweapon for its time)
the bayonet (could take or leave - I found this one in a Civ 2 modpack with many good ideas)
biotechnology
compass (before people understood what "magnetism" was, or even that "magnetic north" wasn't necessarily "true north," the compass was changing the world)
cryogenics (could boost the effect of hospitals, who can now freeze donor organs or blood and semen samples; futuristic effects may involve life extension)
deism
demolition
Diesel engine (okay, probably too specific...)
distillation (before alchemy became organized, herbalists and brewers perfected these techniques)
drafting (the science of architectural drawing, creating of blueprints)
epidemiology (science of epidemics, the spread of disease, very early medicine)
feul cells (just around the corner technology, in fact a Canadian company has even designed practical prototypes)
firearms (hand-held gunpowder weapons didn't become practical for several decades)
foraging (the technology that every human civilization knows out of the cradle)
glass (or glass-blowing, without which there would be no telescope)
globalization (corporations' term for their capitalistic policy of seeking out the cheapest international work force, dreadful practice)
heliocentrism
horticulture (before agriculture, most civilizations began this simple tending of plants, before the plow)
hybrids (another agricultural advance, post-Mendel, which led to hardier, faster-growing, better-yielding crops)
hydraulics (a.k.a. The Pump, science of pumps, Cartesian wells, Archimedes screw; used to create working fountains on mountaintops in the ancient world)
interchangeable parts (a new and better name for "machine tools," this is the real revolutionary idea)
international law (the very concept of which was nonexistent before the nineteenth century)
logic (no Surak jokes, please...)
mechanics (an all-encompassing but primitive science of motion, which predated physics and studied machines, falling objects, etc.)
microchip
naval gunnery (accuracy of cannon on ships on an uneven surface was a huge problem to overcome)
photography (without which radioactivity would never have been discovered)
the plow (another basic technology, the First Machine, etc.)
political economy (the first social science, much discussed in the 18th, 19th centuries, expanding on Machiavelli and leading to international law)
scientific method (perhaps a bit redundant, but still deserving)
sea colonization
siege warfare (also perhaps a bit redundant, but perhaps not)
space colonization
telecommunications (in the space age, with aid of satellites)
telegraph
textiles (after discovery of gearworks, i.e. the mill)
timber construction (also taken from the Civ 2 modpack, not too sure about it...)

Points to add:
Brewing is important because it popularized techniques of distillation that eventually led to the science of chemistry and it also provided farmers with potential "luxury" or cash crops.

Gearworks is simply the practical application of the simple machine, the gear. It's the fairly complex changing of vectors of kinetic energy, invaluable in the construction of mills and eventually clocks.

Mercenary warfare was prevalent in Germany, Italy, Switzerland... most of Europe in fact during the 1700's and early 1800's. It was sort of the halfway mark between aristocratic generals and conscripted troops. Mercenaries were literally the only armies in Europe. This had a huge impact on the ethical implications of warfare. All soldiers were essentially volunteers, or at least had some choice in the matter. The ninja worked on roughly the same principle. They were hired by a government, but not intrinsically loyal.

[This message has been edited by EnochF (edited June 04, 1999).]

NotLikeTea · June 5, 1999, 00:02

Quality vs Quantity:

Intereseting, but maybe not a slider. I don't want 27% quality to be the optimal situation.. too much tweaking and micromanagement, then.

Maybe just Quality, Quantity, and Default, a three way toggle.

Diodorus Sicilus · June 5, 1999, 17:14

Okay, here goes. I've been collecting Technology/Invention notes for a week or so, using various references like Chronology of Invention, Braudel's History of Civilization, DeCamp's Ancient Engineers, Gies' Cathedral, Forge, & Waterwheel (Middle Ages Tech), and Needham's multi-volumes on Chinese Technology.
The result will be several posts spread over the next few days. Bear with me, guys, this will be roughly in chronological order.
Where multiple dates are given, that indicates the approximate time between first discovery and the application or perfection of the Advance as a Useful Thing.

Pre-4000BC Technology
Agriculture
Domestication of wheat, rice, barley
Domestication
Of Dogs, Cattle, Sheep, Goats, Donkey
or Ass (Onager)
Archery
The bow was practically universal in
the Stone Age as a hunting weapon
Ceremonial Burial
Evidence of ceremony in death rituals
dates back to Homo Neanderthalsis
Metal-Working
Specifically, cold copper or low-heat
copper working by some cultures, not all
Pottery
For domestic, local use only.

Pre 4000BC Social/Political Advances:
City-State (Political)
Individual cities self-governing: no
government above the city
God-King (Political)
Egyptian development: control over
most of irrigation-valley (Nile) with
priests’ support
Organized Construction (Social-Economic)
Large consruction projects involving
organized mass labor on temples, etc
Community Trading (Economic)
No money, but cities/villages trade
with each other for necessities

Post-4000BC Advances:
(Approximate Historical Chronolgical Order)

Potter’s Wheel (3600BC)
Requires: Pottery
NOTES: Results in pottery for
export, trade, economic uses
Writing (3700BC)
Required For: Bureaucracy
NOTES: This is primitive, developed
from pictograms
Bureaucracy (3500BC)
Requires: Writing
NOTES: Administrative class in Egypt chosen by merit, education, favoritism
Bronze-Working (3500-2800BC)
Requires: Metal-Working
Required For: Iron-Working
NOTES: First bronze not much better than copper: took 700 years to perfect
Wheel (3500-2900BC)
Requires: Domestication, Pottery
Required For: Carts
NOTES: These are solid wheels, very cumbersome and slow
Stone-Working/Masonry (3200BC)
Requires: Metal-Working, Pottery
NOTES: Specifically, use of stone for buildings instead of wood or mud-brick
Irrigation (3100BC)
NOTES: large scale irrigation projects under King Menes in Egypt
Olive Domestication (3100BC)
Required For: Oil Trade
NOTES: Oilive Oil was a major trade item in the Med until 500AD+
Ship-Building (3000BC)
Requires: Metal-Working, Writing
NOTES: Shore-hugging types: square sail, paddles, fragile hulls, no keel
Pottery Kiln (3000BC)
Requires: Pottery, Potter’s Wheel
NOTES: Allows Fired brick as well as Glazed (export) pottery
Silk Cultivation (3000-2650BC)
Requires: Domestication, Irrigation
Required For: Silk Trade
NOTES: Big Bucks in Silk Trade
Tea Cultivation (3000-1000BC)
Required For: Tea Trade
Harbor (2900-2700BC)
Requires: Masonry
NOTES: First artificial Harbors of brick or stone
Animal-Powered Plow (2500BC)
Requires: Domestication,
Metal-Working
NOTES: First Ox-drawn plows, in Egypt

WONDER: Pyramids of Egypt
Historical Effects:
Major large project control, glorification, later tourist attraction

Canal-Building (2400BC)
Requires: Irrigation, Metal-Working
NOTES: earliest navigation canal between Tigris & Euphrates Rivers
Spoked Wheels (2350-2000BC)
Required For: Chariot
Code of Laws (2300-1900BC)
Requires: Writing
NOTES: First code in 2300, Hammurabi’s publicly-published Code in 1900BC

Mediterranean Trade Goods: 2250BC
Ivory, Silver, Copper, Gold, Timber, Granite, Dates

Road Building (2100BC)
Requires: Metal-Working, Bureaucracy
Required For: Trade
NOTES: First working road network in Ur-Nammu of Mesopotamia
Ocean-Faring Catamarans (2000BC)
NOTES: Malayans had Fore & Aft Sails, Catamaran hulls, by 1000BC were traveling across the Indian and Pacific Oceans to settle Madagascar and Melanasia, long before open-ocean vessels available to anyone else. This kind of Isolated One of a Kind set of Advances will be very hard if not impossible to put in the game, I think.
Alphabet (1700-800BC)
Requires: Writing
Required For: Literacy
NOTES: Development of the full alphabet with vowels took almost 1000 years

WONDER: Stonehenge Astronomical Calendar
Historical Effects:
Religious, possibly Seasonal Timing

Pulley (1500BC)
Requires: Metal-Working
Required For: Improved Rigging
NOTES: Simple pulley only, not compound, used in water raising, rigging
Beam Press (1500BC)
Required For: Commerical wine &
oil trade
NOTES: for processing grapes, olives, etc into oil and wine
Wrought Iron Working (1500-1400BC)
Requires: Bronze-Working
NOTES: Using charcoal fires, tempering: wrought iron only
Vertical Loom (1500BC)
Required For: textile/cloth trade
NOTES: Allows larger and more
uniform cloth-making
Glass Containers (1500-200BC)
NOTES: early glass bottles, then
mold-formed by 200BC
Stone Dams (1300BC)
NOTES: For irrigation, could be Advanced Masonry?

Mediterranean Trade Goods: 1300BC
Ivory, Silver, Copper, Gold, Timber, Tin, Iron, Resins, Linen, Papyrus, Glass & Glass Beads (Faience), Amber

Horseback Riding (1100BC)
Requires: Domestication
Required For: Horsemen,Cavalry
NOTES: No saddles or stirrups, but
careful breeding already
Improved Ships (1100-1000BC)
Requires: Ship-Building
NOTES: Phoenician oared ships with stempost, sternpost, rib skeleton, oars instead of paddles, but still not open-ocean capable
Seige Engines (875-850BC)
Requires: Wrought Iron-Working
NOTES: Assyrian Belfries, Seige
Towers, Rams, etc - no catapults

Mediterranean Trade Goods: 825BC
Ivory, Silver, Copper, Gold, Timber, Tin, Resins, Linen, Papyrus, Glass & Glass Beads (Faience), Amber, Textiles, Spices

NON-TECHNICAL ADVANCE:
Militarism (800BC) (Political-Social)
The Spartan Social Order: State-sponsored military skills and attitudes

Trireme (700BC)
Requires: Improved Ships
NOTES: The fastest ancient oared
warship, but 0 cargo capacity
NON-TECHNICAL ADVANCES:
Imperial Control (745BC) (Political)
The Assyrians put their own governors in conquered cities and incorporate them into their own political organization instead of just leveling them and going home

Market Economy (700BC) (Economic)
Individuals start trading on their own, coincidental with the Agora, or town market

Buddhism (600BC) (Religious)
Gautama starts teaching, modifying Hinduism about this time

Zoroastrianism (600BC) (Religion)
Persian religious leader: duality of Good/Bad in religion, form of Monotheism

WONDER: Hanging Gardens of Babylon
Historical Effects:
glorification, city sentiment, beautification

Centralized City Sewer Drains (600BC)
Requires: Masonry
NOTES: Cloaca Maxima built in Rome: earlier less elaborate sewer systems in
2500BC in Mesopotamia
Coinage (550BC)
Requires: Metal-Working,
Bronze-Working
Required For: improved Trade
NOTES: Stamped metal gold & silver coins in Lydia- a commercial empire
Blast Furnace (400BC-31AD)
Requires: Wrought Iron Working,
Pottery Kiln
Required For: Cast Iron
NOTES: Early Chinese development, produces malleable iron for working
Cast Iron (400BC)
Requires: Blast Furnace,
Wrought Iron-Working
Required For: Mouldboard Plow
NOTES: First known in China: much harder, more brittle than wrought iron

Mouldboard Plow

500-200BC)
Requires: Cast Iron
NOTES: allowed by extensive use of cast iron for tools and parts; Allowed working virgin land, heavy and waterlogged land not possible with lighter plows: Chinese plow used 1 ox to haul plow: European design required 6 -8 oxen MAJOR EFFECTS ON AGRICULTURE & LAND EXPLOITATION

Screw Press (600-200BC)
NOTES: more efficient processor for wine and oil from grapes, making cloth

CITY IMPROVEMENT

530BC):
first known city library, in Athens

NON-TECHNICAL ADVANCE:
Direct Democracy (505BC) (Political)
System developed by Cleisthenes of Athens

NOTE ON CITY SIZE: (500BC)
Babylon reached 1,000,000 population

Okay, that's the first batch. As points for discussion, I admit that some of the Advances are Applications, others basic Tech. Point to be made is that there are a lot of things that result from some of these advances, that will affect Units, City Size, Gold and Food supplies, etc.
One point I think needs to be made is that without even counting the "non-technical" and pre-4000BC stuff, there are
35 Advances or Applications Before 500BC!
More Tomorrow...

Diodorus Sicilus · June 5, 1999, 17:14

Okay, here goes. I've been collecting Technology/Invention notes for a week or so, using various references like Chronology of Invention, Braudel's History of Civilization, DeCamp's Ancient Engineers, Gies' Cathedral, Forge, & Waterwheel (Middle Ages Tech), and Needham's multi-volumes on Chinese Technology.
The result will be several posts spread over the next few days. Bear with me, guys, this will be roughly in chronological order.
Where multiple dates are given, that indicates the approximate time between first discovery and the application or perfection of the Advance as a Useful Thing.

Pre-4000BC Technology
Agriculture
Domestication of wheat, rice, barley
Domestication
Of Dogs, Cattle, Sheep, Goats, Donkey
or Ass (Onager)
Archery
The bow was practically universal in
the Stone Age as a hunting weapon
Ceremonial Burial
Evidence of ceremony in death rituals
dates back to Homo Neanderthalsis
Metal-Working
Specifically, cold copper or low-heat
copper working by some cultures, not all
Pottery
For domestic, local use only.

Pre 4000BC Social/Political Advances:
City-State (Political)
Individual cities self-governing: no
government above the city
God-King (Political)
Egyptian development: control over
most of irrigation-valley (Nile) with
priests’ support
Organized Construction (Social-Economic)
Large consruction projects involving
organized mass labor on temples, etc
Community Trading (Economic)
No money, but cities/villages trade
with each other for necessities

Post-4000BC Advances:
(Approximate Historical Chronolgical Order)

Potter’s Wheel (3600BC)
Requires: Pottery
NOTES: Results in pottery for
export, trade, economic uses
Writing (3700BC)
Required For: Bureaucracy
NOTES: This is primitive, developed
from pictograms
Bureaucracy (3500BC)
Requires: Writing
NOTES: Administrative class in Egypt chosen by merit, education, favoritism
Bronze-Working (3500-2800BC)
Requires: Metal-Working
Required For: Iron-Working
NOTES: First bronze not much better than copper: took 700 years to perfect
Wheel (3500-2900BC)
Requires: Domestication, Pottery
Required For: Carts
NOTES: These are solid wheels, very cumbersome and slow
Stone-Working/Masonry (3200BC)
Requires: Metal-Working, Pottery
NOTES: Specifically, use of stone for buildings instead of wood or mud-brick
Irrigation (3100BC)
NOTES: large scale irrigation projects under King Menes in Egypt
Olive Domestication (3100BC)
Required For: Oil Trade
NOTES: Oilive Oil was a major trade item in the Med until 500AD+
Ship-Building (3000BC)
Requires: Metal-Working, Writing
NOTES: Shore-hugging types: square sail, paddles, fragile hulls, no keel
Pottery Kiln (3000BC)
Requires: Pottery, Potter’s Wheel
NOTES: Allows Fired brick as well as Glazed (export) pottery
Silk Cultivation (3000-2650BC)
Requires: Domestication, Irrigation
Required For: Silk Trade
NOTES: Big Bucks in Silk Trade
Tea Cultivation (3000-1000BC)
Required For: Tea Trade
Harbor (2900-2700BC)
Requires: Masonry
NOTES: First artificial Harbors of brick or stone
Animal-Powered Plow (2500BC)
Requires: Domestication,
Metal-Working
NOTES: First Ox-drawn plows, in Egypt

WONDER: Pyramids of Egypt
Historical Effects:
Major large project control, glorification, later tourist attraction

Canal-Building (2400BC)
Requires: Irrigation, Metal-Working
NOTES: earliest navigation canal between Tigris & Euphrates Rivers
Spoked Wheels (2350-2000BC)
Required For: Chariot
Code of Laws (2300-1900BC)
Requires: Writing
NOTES: First code in 2300, Hammurabi’s publicly-published Code in 1900BC

Mediterranean Trade Goods: 2250BC
Ivory, Silver, Copper, Gold, Timber, Granite, Dates

Road Building (2100BC)
Requires: Metal-Working, Bureaucracy
Required For: Trade
NOTES: First working road network in Ur-Nammu of Mesopotamia
Ocean-Faring Catamarans (2000BC)
NOTES: Malayans had Fore & Aft Sails, Catamaran hulls, by 1000BC were traveling across the Indian and Pacific Oceans to settle Madagascar and Melanasia, long before open-ocean vessels available to anyone else. This kind of Isolated One of a Kind set of Advances will be very hard if not impossible to put in the game, I think.
Alphabet (1700-800BC)
Requires: Writing
Required For: Literacy
NOTES: Development of the full alphabet with vowels took almost 1000 years

WONDER: Stonehenge Astronomical Calendar
Historical Effects:
Religious, possibly Seasonal Timing

Pulley (1500BC)
Requires: Metal-Working
Required For: Improved Rigging
NOTES: Simple pulley only, not compound, used in water raising, rigging
Beam Press (1500BC)
Required For: Commerical wine &
oil trade
NOTES: for processing grapes, olives, etc into oil and wine
Wrought Iron Working (1500-1400BC)
Requires: Bronze-Working
NOTES: Using charcoal fires, tempering: wrought iron only
Vertical Loom (1500BC)
Required For: textile/cloth trade
NOTES: Allows larger and more
uniform cloth-making
Glass Containers (1500-200BC)
NOTES: early glass bottles, then
mold-formed by 200BC
Stone Dams (1300BC)
NOTES: For irrigation, could be Advanced Masonry?

Mediterranean Trade Goods: 1300BC
Ivory, Silver, Copper, Gold, Timber, Tin, Iron, Resins, Linen, Papyrus, Glass & Glass Beads (Faience), Amber

Horseback Riding (1100BC)
Requires: Domestication
Required For: Horsemen,Cavalry
NOTES: No saddles or stirrups, but
careful breeding already
Improved Ships (1100-1000BC)
Requires: Ship-Building
NOTES: Phoenician oared ships with stempost, sternpost, rib skeleton, oars instead of paddles, but still not open-ocean capable
Seige Engines (875-850BC)
Requires: Wrought Iron-Working
NOTES: Assyrian Belfries, Seige
Towers, Rams, etc - no catapults

Mediterranean Trade Goods: 825BC
Ivory, Silver, Copper, Gold, Timber, Tin, Resins, Linen, Papyrus, Glass & Glass Beads (Faience), Amber, Textiles, Spices

NON-TECHNICAL ADVANCE:
Militarism (800BC) (Political-Social)
The Spartan Social Order: State-sponsored military skills and attitudes

Trireme (700BC)
Requires: Improved Ships
NOTES: The fastest ancient oared
warship, but 0 cargo capacity
NON-TECHNICAL ADVANCES:
Imperial Control (745BC) (Political)
The Assyrians put their own governors in conquered cities and incorporate them into their own political organization instead of just leveling them and going home

Market Economy (700BC) (Economic)
Individuals start trading on their own, coincidental with the Agora, or town market

Buddhism (600BC) (Religious)
Gautama starts teaching, modifying Hinduism about this time

Zoroastrianism (600BC) (Religion)
Persian religious leader: duality of Good/Bad in religion, form of Monotheism

WONDER: Hanging Gardens of Babylon
Historical Effects:
glorification, city sentiment, beautification

Centralized City Sewer Drains (600BC)
Requires: Masonry
NOTES: Cloaca Maxima built in Rome: earlier less elaborate sewer systems in
2500BC in Mesopotamia
Coinage (550BC)
Requires: Metal-Working,
Bronze-Working
Required For: improved Trade
NOTES: Stamped metal gold & silver coins in Lydia- a commercial empire
Blast Furnace (400BC-31AD)
Requires: Wrought Iron Working,
Pottery Kiln
Required For: Cast Iron
NOTES: Early Chinese development, produces malleable iron for working
Cast Iron (400BC)
Requires: Blast Furnace,
Wrought Iron-Working
Required For: Mouldboard Plow
NOTES: First known in China: much harder, more brittle than wrought iron

Mouldboard Plow

500-200BC)
Requires: Cast Iron
NOTES: allowed by extensive use of cast iron for tools and parts; Allowed working virgin land, heavy and waterlogged land not possible with lighter plows: Chinese plow used 1 ox to haul plow: European design required 6 -8 oxen MAJOR EFFECTS ON AGRICULTURE & LAND EXPLOITATION

Screw Press (600-200BC)
NOTES: more efficient processor for wine and oil from grapes, making cloth

CITY IMPROVEMENT

530BC):
first known city library, in Athens

NON-TECHNICAL ADVANCE:
Direct Democracy (505BC) (Political)
System developed by Cleisthenes of Athens

NOTE ON CITY SIZE: (500BC)
Babylon reached 1,000,000 population

Okay, that's the first batch. As points for discussion, I admit that some of the Advances are Applications, others basic Tech. Point to be made is that there are a lot of things that result from some of these advances, that will affect Units, City Size, Gold and Food supplies, etc.
One point I think needs to be made is that without even counting the "non-technical" and pre-4000BC stuff, there are
35 Advances or Applications Before 500BC!
More Tomorrow...

Flavor Dave · June 5, 1999, 20:42

Not to be mean, Didorius, but have you ever played Civ? I mean, your list is impressive, but how does it relate to CivIII?

June 6, 1999, 10:33

I was just thinking of some idea's for Civ3, and I wondered if we could have some sort of sound blaster type of weapon?

Like um.. It doesn't need any ammo, It uses the power of sound to destroy things.

Actually, I was thinking of a name for it, and I thought...hehe...Sound of Destruction Theory

And when you discover it, you get a tiny movie come up, of a scientist in the desert, talking to ya, and demonstrating the weapon.

And why can't we discover things like the Ion cannon?

AND WHY CANT I SEE THE SDI DEFENCE IN ACTION!? It would have been so cool to have seen a laser come out from space and blast the nuke into nothing! haha!! Thrills

Diodorus Sicilus · June 6, 1999, 18:40

Here we go again.
The point of this listing is to give a basis for discussion of Tech and Advances: of what resulted specifically from some things, what things occured at a different rate or sequence from what most folks think happened. For instance, both CivII and CtP seem to assume that the rate and sequence of technology advance will always take place at the Western or European pace and model, and that just weren't so. Ideally, I'd like to see a Tech tree that allowed several different paths and even some dead ends, and I don't think we'll get that unless somewhere there is a startng list of Technologies and Applications in some kind of sequence... I'm using historical chronological sequence for lack of anything better right now. This is a starting list, by no means a finished, polished, ready-to-play one...

NON-TECHNICAL ADVANCE:
Federation of City States (447BC) (Political)
Boetian cities in Greece joined in Federation with central leader and representatives: First government above the individual city not imposed from the outside

Mediterranean Trade Goods: 375BC
Ivory, Silver, Copper, Gold, Timber, Tin, Resins, Linen, Papyrus, Glass, Amber, Textiles, Spices, Wool, Wine, Pottery

Breast Strap Harness (400-300BC)
Required For: Collar Harness
NOTES: Improved horse harness, used in China

WONDER: Mausoleum of Halicarnassus
Historical Effects:
glorification, religious

CITY IMPROVEMENT: First University (335BC) Aristotle’s Lyceum at Athens: multiple studies, large faculty and library
Mechanics (320BC)
NOTES: Strato’s Book, first mention of multiple pulley blocks, gear wheels, mechanical advantage machinery for all kinds of work
Permanent Roads (312-200BC)
Requires: Masonry
Required For: extended City Radius
NOTES: Rome’s first “highways”: paved, graded and maintained road surfaces
Crossbow (300BC)
NOTES: first individual crossbows in China

WONDER: (285BC) Pharos, of Lighthouse at Alexandria
Historical Effects:
improved navigation & trade
WONDER: (280BC) Colossus of Rhodes by Chares
Historical Effects:
glorification, improved casting techniques
CITY IMPROVEMENT?: First Public Zoo (285-250BC) established as part of the Alexandria
Library complex
Archmedes’ Screw (240BC)
NOTES: Archimedes’ mechanical advantage instruments: screws, gears

WONDER: (220-210BC) Great Wall of China
Historical Effects:
improved defense, comunication

Horizontal Waterwheel (200BC)
NOTES: Invented in Armenia: first use of non-animal power to do human work
APPLICATIONS: By 20-31AD Chinese using water-powered Trip Hammers and Bellows for working metal, by 200AD Romans using multiple wheels to power large grain milling factories
Concrete (200BC)
NOTES: Developed by the Romans for construction and architecture
Crop Rotation (200BC)
Required For: better farm yields
NOTES: 3-crop rotation used by Greeks and Romans
Steel (200BC)
Requires: Cast Iron
NOTES: Made in China by treating
molten cast iron
Hourglass Mill (200-150BC)
NOTES: Invented by Romans, could be powered by water or animal power for large- scale milling of grain - production for export
Naval Flamethrower (190BC)
NOTES: Invented by Rhodian Admiral
Collar Harness (150-100BC)
Requires: Breast Strap Harness
NOTES: Modern-type horse harness, invented in China
COMPARISON: Throat & Girth harness = 2 horses can pull 1000 lbs
Collar harness= 1 horse can pull 3000 lbs

Mediterranean Trade Goods: 145BC
Ivory, Silver, Copper, Gold, Timber, Tin, Resins, Linen, Papyrus, Glass, Amber, Textiles, Spices, Wool, Wine, Pottery, Iron, Oil, Metalwork, Wheat

Paper (140BC-100AD)
NOTES: Invented in China, not perfected for writing until 50 - 200AD
Astrolabe (130BC)
Requires: Mechanics, Astrology
Required For: Navigation?
NOTES: invented in Alexandria, first scientific instrument for star altitude,
time, and latitude - used for Astrology!
Trigonometry (130BC)
Requires: Basic Mathematics
Required For: Navigation,
Advanced Architecture
NOTES: Invented by Hipparchus
Improved Rice (100BC-100AD)
NOTES: new seeds in SE Asia, allowed 2 crops per year:big increase in food supply
Wooden Barrel (100BC)
NOTES: Invented in Germany (Barbarians!):much less wastage in shipping bulk goods and liquids
ALTERNATE TECH TREE?
Steam Engine (100BC)
NOTES: Heron’s primitive engine in Alexandria: but it had a condenser and rotary
motion, and could have led to great things
Lateen Sail (100BC)
NOTES: Triangular sails first by Chinese at approx this date, by Romans in 100AD, but not on large sea-going vessels until about 700AD
Astronomical Calculator (87BC)
Requires: Astrolabe?
Required For: Advanced Navigation?
NOTES: Calculator for automatic astronomical observations for navigation,
manufactured in Rhodes: includes earliest Differential Gearing
Multiple Seed Drill (85BC)
Required For: Advanced Agriculture
NOTES: Multi-Tube Seed Drill in China: 10 to 30 times more efficient use of seed grain for harvest yields over traditional sowing.
Rotary Winnowing Fan (40BC)
NOTES: invented by Chinese

rovides 30x increase in winnowing grains over
methods used in West until 1700AD
Glass-Blowing (50-100AD)
NOTES: Invented in Syria, more efficient, cheaper glass vessels and windows
Wheelbarrow (231AD)
Requires: Wheel
NOTES: invented in China; one man could carry up to 1000 lbs
Porcelain (300 - 1200AD
Requires: Pottery Kiln
Required For: Trade Goods
NOTES: First primitive fired kaolin clay vessels 2-300 AD, mass production porcelain by 1000AD, advanced decorating techniques by 1200AD - Major item of luxury trade
Stirrup (330AD)
Requires: Horsemen
Required For: Knights
NOTES: Metal stirrup first mentioned in China: allows couched lance charge
CITY IMPROVEMENT: First Public Hospital by St Basil of Caesarea in Cappadocia

Paddlewheel River Boats (418 - 1203AD)
NOTES: Chinese invented these, with men on treadmills inside for power. By 497AD building them for long-range river travel, by 1200AD had iron-armored war types on rivers

Mediterranean-European Trade Goods: 528AD
Slaves, Wool, Wine, Timber, Silver, Furs, (Olive) Oil, Iron, Copper, Linen, Papyrus, Wheat, Spices, Cotton, Silk
Overland Silk route to China now open; Open Ocean route to India open for spices

WONDER: (532AD) Dome of Saint Sophia (Hagia Sophia) Cathedral in Constantinople
Historical Effects: Religious
WONDER: (620AD) Yuwen Khan’s Grand Canal completed in China: 1100 miles long
Historical Effects:
Improved transportation, trade, cohesive Imperial communications

Magnetic Compass (605 - 1290AD)
NOTES: Primitive types by Arabs in 600s, mounted in Chinese ships by 850AD, spread to Europe and perfected by adding the Compass Card in 1290AD
Segmented Arch Bridge (610AD)
NOTES: built in China: more efficient, longer-lasting bridging
Woodblock Printing (600-700AD)
NOTES: First in China: used to print money, art, cards, later newspapers

WONDER: (600-700AD) Polders: Land from the Sea: Dutch start reclaiming land
Historical Effects: Increased fertile farmland, better pumping technology

CITY IMPROVEMENT? (640AD) First Astronomical Observatory (but without telescopes) in Ching-Chow, Korea

Greek Fire (673AD)
NOTES: Invented by Kallinikos: tube-launched shipboard weapon
Reduction Furnace (700-900AD)
Required For: Large Scale iron working
NOTES: First large iron-smelting works, allows iron ingots larger than 50-100 lbs each
Waterclock (725-1092AD)
Requires: Mechanics
NOTES: Built in China with Escapements, sophisticated metal-working

Middle Eastern-European Trade Goods: 737AD
Slaves, Wool, Wine, Timber, Silver, Furs, (Olive) Oil, Iron, Copper, Linen, Papyrus, Wheat, Spices, Cotton, Silk, Ivory, Sugar

WONDER? (1092AD) Su Sung’s “Cosmic Engine” or Great Clock of Kaifeng
Historical Effects: Demonstrated sophisticated calculation and mechanism

Paper Money (812 - 1023AD)
Requires: Paper-Making,
WoodBlock Printing
Required For: Economics?
NOTES: First printed paper drafts on bank deposits in 812, by 1023 government-issued paper money in fixed denominations, all in China
Rotary Grindstone (834AD)
NOTES: More efficient working of tools and weapons
Gunpowder (850-1248AD)
Requires: Alchemy?, Medicine
NOTES: First actual mention of the compound was as early as 650AD, but it was used then as a medicine! 850AD is first mention (in China) of use as an explosive.970AD is the first depiction of a primitive weapon: the “fire lance”, more of a flame-thrower than a gun, and rockets. Between 1000-1221AD Chinese had thrown or catapulted gunpowder bombs. In 1248 the first definite cannon are mentioned, used by the Moslems at Seville
Ocean-going Longship (875AD)
Required For: Cog
NOTES: Longship with Keelson for mast, clinker-built hull, strakes: true ocean-going ship, but not much cargo capacity, couldn’t stay at sea long.
Agricultural Revolution (900-1000AD)
NOTES: Combination of open field argriculture, heavy plow, horse harness, crop
rotation, fallow land farming all came together in Europe to increase crop yields,
BUT most of the separate Advances were made earlier in China
Pound Lock (984AD)
Requires: Canals
Required For: Advanced Canals
NOTES: This is the modern canal lock, with two gates and pumps to change the water level, invented in China by Ch’iao Wei-Yo
Stone Keep (1000AD)
Required For: Fuedalism?
NOTES: The classic Castle, developed in Europe from the Motte & Bailey castle of 700 to 800AD, made the semi-anarchic Fuedal Barons possible in Europe
Coffee Production (1000-1500AD)
Requires: Coffee Plants
Required For: Coffee Trade
NOTES: Coffee first prescribed as a medicine by Arabs around1000AD, by 1400 it was a ‘recreational’ beverage, by 1500 bean roasters were being used in the modern
fashion: coffee became a major Fad in Europe
Power Machinery (1000-1100AD)
Requires: Gearing, Mechanics
Required For: Factories
NOTES: In Europe, a vast expansion of water and wind mills driving all kinds of
machinery for milling, cutting timber, working metal, processing cloth.
Textile Factories (700-1010AD)
Required For: Power Machinery
NOTES: First collections of textile workers were Moslem Tiraz factories in 700, but system perfected in Flanders by 1010AD: mass-produced wool cloth by hundreds of workers on hand equipment, first manufactured mass-market Trade Goods
Instruments of Credit (1100AD)
Requires: Banking
Required For: Economics?
NOTES: First use of Credit to transfer funds long distances for “remote control” business overseas - first in Italy

CITY IMPROVEMENT? (1044AD) First Military Academy established to train officers in Wu Chang, China

Cog (1100-1220AD)
Requires: Longship
Required For: Carrack
NOTES: ship development with deep keel, round bottom, single sail: open ocean
capability, 4 - 6 times the capacity of earlier sailing vessels with same crew: had high castles fore and aft, was first ship with both good cargo & combat ability
Spinning Wheel (1100-1280AD)
NOTES: Invented in China, spread to Europe in less than 150 years, resulted in an
increase in thread production 200 times faster than old methods
Cathedral (1135AD)
NOTES:The first complete Gothic Cathedral, built by Abbot Suger of St. Denis
(University) (1150AD)
NOTES: This is the traditional date for the ‘modern’ multi-educational secular higher education estabishments, first at Paris, Bologna, and Oxford
Vertical Windmill (1180AD)
Requires: Gearing, Mechanism
Required For: Better Production
& Agriculture
NOTES: First appears in East Anglia: more application of non-animal power to work
Trebuchet (1180-1220AD)
NOTES: New and massive seige engine/catapult perfected in Europe

Middle Eastern-European Trade Goods: 1212AD
Slaves, Wool, Wine, Timber, Silver, Furs, Iron, Linen, Paper, Wheat, Spices, Cotton, Silk, Ivory, Sugar, Tin, Alum, Woolens (cloth), Cod, Herring, Coal
NOTE: The Cog made long-distance Trade in bulk, cheap goods like cod, coal, textiles and herring profitable for first time

Mechanical Clock (1275-1364AD)
Requires: Gearing, Mechanics,
WaterClock, Cathedral
Required For: Power Machinery,
Industrial Revolution
NOTES: First invented by European monks to time prayers, prerequisite for timed
production in later factories
Eyeglasses (1285-1451AD)
Requires: Glass-Blowing?
Required For: Astronomy, Telescopes
NOTES: eyeglasses for correcting farsightedness by Salvino degli Armati in 1285, perfected for correcting nearsightedness by 1451.
Bombard (1326AD)
Requires: Gunpowder, Cast Iron
Required For: Cannon
NOTES; The first metal artillery firing iron cannon balls: the ruin of castles and ancient-type city walls, but very hard to move, not so useful on a battlefield
APPLICATION: (1339AD) The first Gun-Carrying Ship: the English Cog “Christopher” with iron guns mounted

Middle Eastern-European Trade Goods: 1346AD
Slaves, Wool, Wine, Timber, Silver, Furs, Iron, Linen, Paper, Wheat, Spices, Cotton, Silk, Ivory, Sugar, Tin, Alum, Woolens (cloth), Cod, Herring, Coal, Rye, Copper, Wax, Hides

Drawn Wire (1410-1563AD)
Requires: Reduction Furnace,
Powered Machinery
NOTES: First drawn wire in 1410, complete mills to produce it by 1563AD
Carrack (1420AD)
Requires: Cog
Required For: Age of Exploration
NOTES: Ship Development: 3-masted vessel, double the capacity of the cog, could stay at sea much longer: cost of bulk transport dropped, long-distance trade in bulk goods now profitable, Europeans could make world-wide voyages
Corned Gunpowder (1425AD)
Requires: Gunpowder, Power Machinery
Required For: All advanced firearms
NOTES: Early gunpowder was a powder. Corned powder was processed into granules,
much more reliable and easier to store
Printing Press (1451AD)
Requires: Cast Iron, Literacy
NOTES: Gutenberg’s device combined moveable type, the Screw Press, and ink
technology. Main point was that it allowed mass-produced Books for the first time
Arquebus (1525AD)
Requires: Corned Gunpowder
Required For: Musket
NOTES: First efficient individual firearm, from Spain: the Death of Knights

Note that without including most of the Non-Technical, Cultural, or Artistic Developments, by the end of the Rennaissance there are about 90 advances or applications, and the Great Age of (Technical) Discovery isn't considered to have started until the late 18th century!

Flavor Dave · June 6, 1999, 22:53

Diodorus--let's try this again. What do you not like about Civ 2? What would you like to see improved?

Here's my biggest gripes, not in any order.

1. Trade is too difficult early.
2. Conquest is too easy early and late, too hard in the middle.
3. The AIs military planning is very bad.
4. The war aspect of the game is too heavily weighted toward the army. Esp. late in the game, navies and the air force don't have anything like the importance they do in real life. And, fixing this problem would add to strategic options.

There may be some others, but that gives you an idea of what I'm asking for. If you were Reynolds and Meier, what would be the changes you'd be looking at.

EnochF · June 7, 1999, 04:32

I'd take issue with the names he's come up with for advances. I mean, "Paddlewheel Steam Boats" just doesn't pack the same wallop as "Seafaring," does it? I'd be pretty underwhelmed if I read, "Our scientists have discovered the secrets of Paddlewheel Steam Boats!"

When deciding what tech advances to include, I consider the historical significance as well as the practical game effects, and also the aesthetics of it. I'll shy away from advances like "modern agriculture" and "advanced flight." Modern as opposed to what? Advanced as opposed to what? I'll also shy away from "advances" that had practical effects which lasted less than a single decade. That's why I'd rather not see things like "vacuum tubes." Vacuum tubes were almost immediately replaced with transistors; why bother? "Computers" is enough.

Anyhoo, if you've got Wonders, kindly place them in the Wonders thread. It's no good piling all your ideas in the Technology section, as SnowFire would no doubt agree.

Daniel Bistman · June 7, 1999, 05:44

hi, im new here, but i have an idea for 33)ARMS RACES.

When you discover a weapons tecnology, there should be "Investments on Military research"
that improve those units on different levels, for example: Musketeers didn't become Regiments from one day to another, so there are..
Musketeers (level 1)
Musketeers (level 2) etc.
then you discover "Leva" and you have
Regiments (level 1)

Musketeers are not the same in the colonist conquests in America than in Napoleonic Wars. Regiments are not the same in American Civil War than in first World War.
The armies should be easily upgradeable (between levels, and between unists type).
I DONT WANNA SEE A CAVALRY NEAR A TANK!!

Harel · June 7, 1999, 15:36

Harel's post on technology

Ok, I DID say i would do this, so here goes.
First off, I still belive summarizing a single, coherent model is the way to go. However, I won't touch that issue. I think we turn it into a squabble over 1.5, a pointless beakery.
Me, SnowFire, and NotLikeTea offered a new model with either relay on several major technologys with related minor techs or 3 big catagories. I won't take a stand on THAT issue now, also. I would use the major-tech system only beacause it's easier for me to track the technologys i am writing and for you to read them.
I tried to build toghter a useful tech tree, with doesn't over-blow itself, even thought i like the idea of a big tech tree.
For example, EnochF, rightfully said that you have to have compass before magnetism, because people knew how to use compasses even before then understood how they work. Very true, however since thats what CIV II magnetism defines, we can change the name to compass but having complete tech on just understanding the concept is pointless.

I removed doubled techs: see The loom, textiles AND weaving, things which are too-narrow as the bayonet, etc. I also discarded culture suggestions such as helincenterism. Those were effects cause by specific-regional and politcal sitution. We are talking about things in general. Also, I dropped ideas such as: nuclear disarmment, as it defitently doesn't quality at a tech. I also cut off basical techs, such as the fire, forgating, etc, as they don't need to be learned.

I would like you, if i may, to treat this offer of tech as standard: i tried to include most good ideas both from everyone here and old CIV. The list here encompose everything in an easy-to-read post.
I would like ideas on: what to add, what to drop, what is too-narrow or too-wide. I have no doubt this post if far from perfect: but i though we needed an orderly summary ( as SnowFire only included the SUGGESTED techs, and not everything alltoghter ). I probaly did miss a few, cause i didn't went over civ ii list. oh well.

The sub-catagorizing is a bit blurry, at best. If you have ideas how to properly divide them ( but not into too-big catagories ), please tell me.
I tried not to include too futuristic techs, as it's still debated.

So, here goes. The list is by related major techs. The techs also state the suggested imporvement.
For those wandering, i give food-making, pottery and such a trade bonus beacause they are things which are commonly traded ( signs of different cultures ).

Animals

Taming ( Dog scouts, +1 scout range, war elphents )
Horseback riding ( Cavalry, chariot )
Domesticating ( Allow cattle farm )
Veteranical services ( double animals healing rate )
Genetic enhancement ( 50% cost,for animal units, +1 extra to speed )

Farming

Fielding ( Allow to build fields, +1 food )
Irrigation ( Allow water tuneels, +1 food for deserts )
Crop rotating ( +10% for food production )
Fertelzaing ( -10% pollutin, +10% food )
Cultivating ( +0.1% to food every turn ( FET ), up to 10 )
Hybrids ( additional +0.1 FET, max +15 )
Genetic botony ( additional +0.1 FET, max +20 )
( all 3 techs can give up to one more +0.3% every turn, up to a max of +45% )
Industrial farming ( +50% to cost of fields, +50% to output )
Hydrophonics ( allow hydro sat, orbital food farms )

Medicne

Evoultion ( -25% to templers, +10% to science if religoun is Athaism )
Gene theory ( +10% to growth )
X-ray photographing ( +10% to health, requires radioactiviy )
Anatomy ( allow hospitels )
Surgery ( +25% to regaining health in infantry units )
Germotology ( allow santirical hostpitels ( twice effective ) )
Antibiotics ( -50% of plague )
DNA splicing ( +10% health )
Genetic engineering ( may cause un-rest, +25% to growth )

Biology

Botony ( allow explorer units? )
Bio-engineering ( allow bio weapons )
Bio computing ( allow bio-like computers )
Synathic cells ( +50% to waste disposel site effectivness )
Organic industry ( +10% to factories, -10% pollution )

Theortical mathematics

Mathematics ( Catapult )
Astronomy ( Allow +1 to ship speed )
Ballistics ( Cross-bow, ballista )
Atomic theory
Differnal calcuss ( +10% science )
Theory of gravity )
Theory of realtivy ( allow space-faring )
Quantum physics ( +10% science )
Quantum mathamatics ( allow quantum-computer labs, big science bonus )

Useful physics

Physics
Aeronotics ( Glider units )
Therodynamics ( flying ballons )
Aerodyanmics ( Planes )
Optics
Elctromagnetism ( Allow electronics )
Magntic fields ( Allow super-colliders, acts like labs )
Radio-activiy ( Nukes, with realtivity )
Radiation study ( H-bombs )
Nuclear power ( nuclear power-planets, nuclear subs )
Radio ( +10% to trade )
Multi-length spectrum ( +1 sight to cities, allow modern telescopes, radar station )
Hydrology ( +1 to sub speed, better torpedos, allow dams power-plant )
Meteralugy ( +10% to farming, allow wind-power-plants )

Chemistry

Fireworks ( allow fireworks factory, increase happiness )
Ceramics ( better armor )
Rocket fuel ( allow IBCM with rocketry, allow space-travel )
Carbon-alloys ( very strong armor )
Explosives ( allow you to build roads pass mountians and hills )
Plastic explosives ( better weapons, artilery )
Gunpowder ( Muskets, Cannons )
Brewing ( Allow pubs, happiness buildings )
Industrial chemistry ( factories are +25% productive, +50% more pollution )
Chemical war-fare ( allow chemical weapons )
Waste disposel ( allow waste disposel systems )
Cement ( +10% to building )
Periodic table ( allow radioactiviy, +10% to science )
Plastic ( requires Petrolium, allow space-travel )
Semi-conductors ( allow micro-elctronics )
Super-conductors ( allow mono-rail )

Elctronics

Electricity
Direct-current ( power plants )
Pulse communction ( +10% to trade )
Commerical elctronics ( +10% to happiness and productivy )
The transistor ( allow microelctronics )
Refigiration ( increase food output by +10% )
Computer ( allow space-flight and labs, +10% to science )
Digital network ( allow internet interface, gives a bonus to science and trade )
Microelectronics ( increase computer-related bonus by +25% )
Optic-fibers ( +25% to internet bonus )

Space fligth

Rocketry ( requires petroliam, allow V-2 )
Missiles ( Bazooka, missile cruisers, etc. )
1. Space travel ( allow apollo program )
2. Orbital space-flight ( allow satellites ( defence, com ))
3. Advanced space consructiom ( allow orbital habitats ( factory, resintial ) )
4. Space-faring ( allow space-travel, ship and inter-planetry movement )
( by order of time, 1-4. 2+3: current time, 4: futuristic. possible fifth step needed for inter-steller? )

Tactics

Orginized military ( Allow better legions, allow barracks )
Geurrila ( allow geurrila war-fare and units )
Intelligence ( +10% to spies )
Code of conduct ( gives +10% to morale )
Guidenss systems ( allow infra-red tracking )
Targeting ( Increase accuracy )
Military algorithem ( better sabotage )
Scripting ( allow mass-requrtiment )
Stealth ( allow stealth planes )

Socio-culture

Alphabet ( allow more tech )
Writing
Time celender ( increase effiency by +10% )
Rulership
Code of law ( -10% unrest )
Urbanzation ( increase city max size by 2 )
Industralzing ( allow factories )
Civilain watch ( +10% to internal security )
Civilian rights ( like labor union, +10% to happiness )
Program algorithems ( +25% to spying )
Code of chivalry ( allow knights and Feudalism )
Artifical intelligence
Mass-media ( allow TV broadcasting buildings )

Exploring

Map-making ( allow ships )
Sea-faring ( less chance of losing ships in ocean, better ships )
Navigation ( deep-ocean traveling, cancel drowing of ships )
Geology ( +10% to mine tiles )
Global mapping ( requires Sat, increase movement of all by +10% )

Homanism

Lietreture
High eduction ( universties/collage )
Paiting ( +10% to perefomers )
Causine ( or food-making art... everyone forgot about this one

+10% to trade )
Arts ( allow artists, preformers )
Playing ( allow theatre )
Philosphopy ( +10% to happiness )
Antropolgy ( +25% to outer realtions )
Scientifcal method ( Allow scientists )
Psycology ( +10% to happiness )

Construction

The wheel ( chariots )
Tool-works ( +10% to building )
Paving ( allow roads )
Bridge buildings ( requires paving and crane, not the too-advanced tech of civ II. allows you to build roads over rivers, +25% to paving road speeds )
Plumbing ( allow plubming in city, +10% to health, reduce diesese )
Water-engineering ( allow aquadects )
Engineering ( +10% to building )
Mass-size construcing ( allow sky-scrapers )
Arcology ( allow building arcologies )
Architecture ( allow to build wonders )
Ship building ( Frigate, Cog, Man-o-war )
Deep-see construcing ( allow deep-sea cities )
Underground building ( allow underground cables and trains )
Deep-core mining ( +50% to cost of mine, +25% to output )
Weaving ( Increase trade )
Controled furnace ( better armor and swords )
Metallreguy ( better muskets )
Fortefuction ( allow castles and walls )
Nano industry ( +10% to health and factories )
Machinary ( requires steam engine, +10% to factories )
Robotics ( requires microelctronics, +10% to factories )

Invetions

Vacuum tubes ( allow LASER and computers )
Compass ( increase +1 ship speed )
Automatic feeder ( improve muskets to rifles )
Steam-engines ( train and steam-boats )
Combustible engine ( allow mass-transit, cars, trucks, tanks )
Solar-panels ( for sats and power supply )
Deep-water crafts ( subs and torpedos )
Crane ( construction +10% )
Enhancing lens ( optics, diffenail math. allow observatories and Germotoly )
Paper-press ( libaries cost 50% )
LASERS ( allow more techs and +10% to factories )
Delta-wing ( +1 to plane speed )
Jets engine ( jet fighters )
Clock-work ( increase effiency +10%, allow clocks in city )

Materials ( found ones, made ones are in Chemistry )

Timber cutting ( bow )
Masonry ( allow better housing, +10% to housing option? )
Bronze making ( phalanx )
Iron smelting ( Legion )
Coal ( allow steam-engines )
Pottery ( +10% to trade )
Paper/Papirous ( Libaries )
Combustible gas ( allow lighting posts )
Noble gases ( allow lasers )
Glass-blowing ( +10% to trade )
Rubber ( better cannons )
Petrolium ( allow combunstible engine )

Rulership

Totalarship ( allow dictorship )
Beacurcy ( gives +10% to efffiency )
Constition ( -10% unrest in democracy/republic )
Diplomacy ( +10% to spying and +25% to outer-relations )
Monarchy ( allow monarchy and emperorship )
Civilian freedom ( allow republic and democracy )

Religoun

Ceremonial burrial ( allow temples )
Mystisim
Astrology ( increase worhsip places +10% )
Religoun ( allow church )
Theocracy ( allow thecrtical govrement )
Athaism ( a form of a "religoun", gives a bonus to science, not happiness )
Synthasim ( a "new-age" belif, make all temples effective again )
( i wont put monothiesm cause i think thats discrmanting. is he belief of one god really is more EVOLVED then a "paganic" one? )

Economics

Currency ( allow clerks in city )
Trade ( allow caravans, market-place )
Banking ( +10% to economy, allow banks )
Marketing ( Free market model )
Income tax ( +10% to taxs )
Communism ( allow communical model )
Mass transpotion ( requires mass-transit, paving, allow highways )
Coporations ( allow free coporations... don't know, maybe internal powers in your empire? )
Politcal economy ( +10% to economy )
Economics ( 20th tech, +10% economy, planned model )
Mass production ( requires machinary, +50% to factories cost, +25% to output )
Recycling ( allow recyling centers )

EnochF · June 7, 1999, 15:49

Interesting... unfortunately, several of those words simply don't exist in the English language...

Harel · June 7, 1999, 15:53

Indeed EnochF, i am not a naitive english speaker. While I belive the level of my english is fine, i find the grammer and spelling annoying. And since I don't have a spell checker at hand, some things get lost. However, I know this is hard for you, try to raise above it and read what i meant, not what you see.

Diodorus Sicilus · June 7, 1999, 15:56

Dave, I'm going to try to make this quick, and I apologize beforehand to everyone else in this Thread, because not all of this will pertain to Technology:
My two biggest gripes with CivII (and they don't stop me from playing it, but they do keep me griping) can be summed up as:
1. Not enough variety in Play
2. Not enough Historical problems for the gamer.
The variety in play covers a lot of things. I found after the first 50+ games, that they started falling into a distinct pattern. Regardless of who or what Civ I played as, the only major variations in how I expanded, researched, explored, or built were provided by the relative starting positions and the map (and while we're upgrading AIs, let's give a jolt or two to the Map Editor, PLEASE). After a certain point in each game, game play was pretty much standardized: certain Advances were always important, cetain units were always useful, certain Wonders, etc.
For variety, I want civilizations to actually be different: for their starting positions to influence the kinds of Tech thay can research and how well - and maybe their cultures to influence development as well, but this is a real can of worms to put in the game - too, too many value judgements involved. I want a Tech Tree with several routes to the same end, and Civilizations that rise and fall instead of plodding steadily across 6000 years to victory. I want Victory Conditions that reward more than just Conquest and Space Travel.
And I want historical problems: religions that undermine as well as enhance my civ and government: government types that force me to share control but give advantages for doing it. More variety in diplomacy: barbarians that trade or fight, civs that come along during the game from developed barbarians.
Where we agree:
Trade should be started and startable much earlier: Hisorically, by Turn 15-20 in the game there was extensive trade clear across Europe in Tin, Copper, Amber, etc.
The ground war is emphasized over the naval or air, but I think the reason is that the game maps don't have the space that the real world has. Play on a map that is 75% water, and you approach Earth's configuration: navies and naval technology gets real important. But if you set a CivII/CtP game map to 75% water, you end up with an Island game almost every time, and there is little or no ground war at all. A partial solution might be to speed up naval movement, which would certainly be historical, but I'm not certain that a complete answer is possible without vastly increasing map size, and that has other important effects on the game...
AI has gotten a little better since CivII came out, but there is vast room for improvement, in the AI's military, diplomatic, trade, and all other aspects. I'm not programmer enough to know what is possible (or doable within money and time constraints) but surely'better' is possible.

Again. sorry for leaving the Tech thread here, but you deserve an answer...

Now lemme get back to massaging the Tech into Advances, Applications, and Non-Tech Advances, with some notes as to which can be made particular to terrain, culture, or location. This will take a while...

Flavor Dave · June 7, 1999, 16:50

Okay, Diodorus, it appears we aren't far apart at all in what we'd like to see in Civ3. In particular, I agree about 90% with your #1. But then, I wonder about alot of your suggestions. Not alot of them seem to attack the problems you see. I've played some AofE, and you seem to be thinking along those lines, small technology advances being important, a game covering a far shorter period of time. But as long as Civ covers 6000 years, you're gonna have to leave out alot of your advances. I mean, how much value, really, is an enhanced archer??? In my games, none, b/c in no time I've got knights, then musketeers, etc.

As far as variety in gameplay goes, at deity, if you don't get Hanging Gardens, then your terrain determines your strategy, a great deal. And even with HG, I find that you have to react to your surroundings/situation, cuz at deity, you can't beat the AI to everything.

Here's an idea--maps should have more plains, and less grasslands. BUT--you could add a tech like, organized hunting, which would increase by one the food yield from forests and/or hills and mountains (to make up for it.) This would allow you to set up your civ in very rough terrain. It would make isolationism a better option.

Also, you could have domestication to add one food to plains (in addition to another for irrigation). This should help the AI, which is kinda stupid in the way it "improves" the land. Also, I think this would help with scenarios set in rough terrain.

How about this for a victory condition--have more people and more money than all other nations combined, and no AI civ has a tech that you don't have. You'd then have to find a "3rd way" between militarism and advancement.

OK, I'm off thread here. That last suggestion should go to RADICAL.

BigBopper · June 7, 1999, 19:35

WOW you are some long winded people

Anyways a couple of notes on real world techs in development (I watch discovery channel too much)

1. Areosol propeled munitions. combined with automated loading of warheads (and several types of guided warheads) an artillery system in development can fire three shells at diffrent tragectories and have them land on a target area at the same time. Basically it's the same principle as the potato gun taken to the Nth degree. I assume this technology will eventually replace solid propellants. propelents

2. Laser based propulsion. More theoretical, but early experiments have been successful, A vehicle "rides" a powerful laser beam fired from the ground. I don't understand it completely but apparently as the laser hits the vehicle it super-heats the air under the ship creating thrust. ( I'm sure there is information galore out on the web) This opens up all kinds of possibilities for cheap access to space, intercontinental travel etc.
BigBopper

SnowFire · June 7, 1999, 22:30

This is basically a post to let you know that I'm still around and have been closely following the discussion- merely considering what to say. A few things:

Diodorus: First off, you double posted your original summary. Can you edit the double off (just say "Double post! Sorry!")?

Secondly, I've read what you've written in other threads as well, and think you have some fantastic ideas. I like 'em alot. Unfortunately, I really doubt they'll ever see the light of day. Spending until 500 BC wandering around as barbarians is a cool and realistic idea, but not everyone's cup of tea.

Still, your technology lists and explanations are interesting. I'll try and condense them into the next summary, along with EnochF & Harel's.

Meowser, NotLikeTea: I think that's a cool idea. However, it would be solved by workshop special abilities (remember trained in SMAC?), and it's not really a technology topic.

BigBopper · June 8, 1999, 19:50

About #43 on the summary list, the civ with a less mechanistic view.

A civ could (can?) only pursue the arts, philosophy etc, when not threatened. Those that ignored their army fell to the first military force that came along. History is full of examples of "Advanced" civs that fell to armys with no where near the civil advancement of the conquered civ. (the conquering armies may have had better military techniques and or technologies)

Scott.
"peace through superior firepower"

Ecce Homo · June 10, 1999, 14:59

TECHS TIED TO RESOURCES:
Some early techs could maybe be tied to special resources found on the map. Say, to learn Horse Domestication/Copper Working, one citizen must work on a terrain square with Horses/Copper on for a couple of turns. This is more realistic than the present science concept.

NotLikeTea · June 13, 1999, 19:11

Our national sceince program on the radio was discussing archaeology, and this got me thinking

What if, at later stages in the game (when did archaeology become popular?) explorers could find remains of old cities.

Consider a greek city, that is wiped out. The city is lost, but is still represented on the map, as are the tile improvements. After time, these dissapear. Later, an explorer enters a tile that once possesed an improvement. "You notice strange ruins." Poking around a bit more, you discover the ruined city, and perhaps learn something from it (an old tech never discovered, perhaps, or a general boost to research).

I dunno about this myself.. would be interesting, and a reason to use explorers after most of the world is mapped, but how often are cities wiped out entirely in a game?

This brings up another interesting point.. what about scientist UNITS? When used in different locations, would help different aspects of technology (on a boat, naval tech? On the land, argiculture?) Assasinations would be more important...

Diodorus Sicilus · June 15, 1999, 17:01

Harel’s summation is another form of something I’ve been working on off and on since the unfortunate Double Post last week (I should remember to go back and look at my own posts to catch that stuff, sorry everybody). Instead of having a single list of Categories, why not divide the Tech Tree into Advances and Applications?
Advances would fall under four main categories (borrowed shamelessly from SMAC’s Tech Tree design):
Growth
Culture
Military
Trade
These correspond to the Civ Games’ Areas of Interest: Grow your Empire, Build your cities, Conquer and Defend, and set up and run an economy to do it all with. You could select the emphasis to put on researching these categories, but most of the really useful stuff would be Applications of the advances, which I have tentatively divided into the following categories:
Arts & Letters
Physical Sciences
Natural Resources
Ground Warfare
Seafaring
Flight (becoming Space Flight after a certain point)
Economics
Politics

You could also set priorities for researching/developing the Applications, OR the emphasis might be influenced or set by the type of civilization/government/culture you are playing. For example, a Civ that has mostly port/seacoast cities would get a plus when researching in the Seafaring category.
To use Harel’s first two categories: Animals and Farming as examples, here is how most of the advances given would break down into Advances and Applications:

Domestication
(Growth Advance)
Starting Tech: No Prerequisites
Agriculture
(Growth Advance)
Possible Starting Tech:No Prerequisites
Irrigation
(Natural Resources Application)
Application of: Agriculture
Requires: Agriculture, Writing, (a river)
Effects: turns desert tiles into Farmland
Natural Fertilizer
(Natural Resources Application)
Application of: Domestication
Requires: Domestication., Agriculture
Effects: +25% agriculture production
War Elephant
(Ground Combat Application)
Application of: Domestication
Requires: Domestication +
(Terrain icon: Elephant)
Effects: War Elephant unit
Horseback Riding
(Ground Combat Application)
Application of: Domestication
Requires: Domestication +
(Terrain icon: Horse)
Effects: Light Horseman unit
Light Chariot
(Ground Combat Application)
Application of: Wheel
Requires: Wheel, Metal-Working
Effects: Light Chariot unit
Plow
(Natural Resources Application)
Application of: Metal-Working
Requires: Metal-Working, Domestication,
Agriculture
Effects: +33% agricultural production
Crop Rotation
(Natural Resources Application)
Application of: Agriculture
Requires: Agriculture, Calendar
Effects: +25% agriculture production
Archimedes’ Screw
(Physical Sciences Application)
Application of: Screw
Requires: Irrigation, Screw
Effects: +10% irrigation effects
Breast Strap Harness
(Economics Application)
Application of: Light Chariot
Requires: Light Chariot, Plow
Effects: +10% Trade, +10% Agriculture
Mouldboard Plow
(Natural Resources Application)
Application of: Cast Iron
Requires: Cast Iron, Plow
Effects: +33% agriculture, more farmable
land tiles
Improved Grains
(Natural Resources Application)
Application of: Agriculture
Requires: Agriculture, Moldboard Plow
Effects: +33% agriculture production

The % numbers are approximations, and would undoubtably have to be playtested before they were finalized. Requirements in () are terrain or location requirements for the advance or application.
I haven’t taken my model all the way up to the 19th century yet, but Haber’s Artificial Nitrates would be a Physical Sciences Application of Agriculture that allowed Artificial Fertilizers, while various farm machinery (Internal Combustion and Steam Engines: Physical Sciences Applications of earlier techs) would lead to the modern Industrial Farms. Genetic Enhancement I would break down, since animals were being bred for particular characteristics before 4000BC, but it wasn’t until the 18th-19th century that Modern Genetics started to develop, and most of the advances with major effects date to the 19th and 20th centuries: hybrid grains, agricultural animals with specifically improved economic features, etc.
This is by no means a finished system, but I think that by dividing the categories into two heirarchies we can have both the “blind” research some folks have posted about, and a multiplied Tech Tree without having the number of categories get too extravagant to control.
Hopefully, by the end of the week I'll have a sample list breaking down Advances and Applications at least up to the 19th century - and this time, just post it once...

yin26 · June 16, 1999, 04:31

-=*MOVING THREAD UP*=-

SnowFire · June 16, 1999, 22:27

Same here, bumping this to the top.