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Old August 10, 1999, 03:51   #1
Local Time: 08:22
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Korea and New Zealand
Posts: 13
SIDGAMES.COM: Their List (released Aug. 5)
My thanks to the team at for posting this for all Civ fans to see. In the spirit of making a better Civ, I'm posting this here to help stimulate discussions and to give us all a broader sense of what the Civ community in general is thinking.

Great work guys! I hope this helps make our version 2 even better. And I should point out, Brian thanked them for the list, noting that the now various lists are helping Civ3's development greatly.


Civilization 3 – Suggestions List

This document is a suggestion list written by Daniel Garland on behalf of SidGames.Com and the newsgroups. This document catalogues the ideas and suggestions from Civilization 2 players, as posted in the newsgroup. We would all appreciate it if the game designers would consider these points during the making Civ3. All points of view have been entered in this document, so there may be contradictions in what is wanted.
The ideas are not in any order of importance or significance.


1. Air transport
2. Stealth planes and units
3. Nuclear warfare
4. Chemical warfare
5. Civilization-specific graphics
6. Defensive walls
7. Army camps
8. ¡°Micromanagement¡±
9. Submarines
10. Diplomacy
11. Computer-Alliances
12. Obsolete units shouldn¡¯t damage modern ones
13. City walls + Siege
14. United Nations wonder
15. Improved AI in the Senate
16. Borrowing money
17. Barbarians
18. Earlier wonder warning
19. Trade routes
20. Stacked units
21. Linked maps
22. 3D/FX
23. Support model
24. Unit design
25. Lack of air units
26. AI Strategy
27. Newspaper
28. Propaganda
29. Advances through conquest
30. Leaders
31. Automated Settlers
32. Larger maps
33. Business tactics
34. Telegraph poles
35. Ocean bridges
36. Satellites
37. Disease and medicine
38. Advanced Railroad
39. Naval trade units
40. Slavery
41. Modern Luxury improvements
42. Aggressive monetary tactics
43. Trade wars
44. Canals
45. Tunnels
46. Patrol routes
47. Long-range bombers
48. Internet wonder
49. Triremes
50. Revolutions
51. Immigrants
52. Scenarios
53. Transforming into Oceans
54. Long-range units
55. ¡°View City¡± improvement
56. Tourism
57. Multiple production
58. Killing innocent units
59. Alpine troops
60. New unit ideas
61. Conscription
62. City Status improvement

1) Air transport: Helicopters such as Chinooks, and also cargo planes, could transport infantry or other units. They could be moved just like units are transported by sea in Civ2.

2) There was criticism of the stealth plane unit in Civ2 – it remains visible after attacking and is vulnerable. The idea is the plane¡¯s stealth would prevent it from being attacked. If not, then perhaps a bonus for being stealthy, e.g. SAM missile batteries are only 50% effective.

It was suggested that stealth bombers should be able to drop nuclear bombs on a city.
The idea of stealth could also be extended to other units, such as ninjas who cannot be seen, and spies.

Land and sea units should also be able to pass under squares occupies by bombers.

3) A lot of discussion on the group related to nuclear warfare. Firstly, the Manhattan project wonder allows all Civilizations to build nukes, but in real life each Civilization had to individually discover and develop nuclear warfare – most of the superpowers kept it a secret for many years. The USA¡¯s first Atomic bomb was in 1945 and the USSR¡¯s was in 1949.

Secondly, the power of nuclear weapons was deemed under-exaggerated; a city hit by a nuke in Civ2 suffers about half the population being lost, and all the city improvements and buildings remain. Even the surrounding roads and irrigation survive. What was suggested is that nuclear bombs should be much more powerful – and should wipe a city virtually off the map wrecking all the buildings inside. This would make the use of nukes something to really gasp at, but in Civ2 they were used fairly routinely. As a result, the real-life deterrent effect of nukes wasn¡¯t really replicated in Civ2.

Also more types of nuke were called for. Nukes should be able to be dropped from bombers, as well as fired from subs and shot in missile form. Short-range nukes should be made as well as ICBM type missiles, but short range take less time to build. ICBMs should be able to hit cities on the other side of the map, as technology allows in reality. The Neutron bomb was also suggested.
There were calls for city improvements such as uranium plants that take a while to build in order to produce nukes. This would prevent the tiny village-sized cities from building the high-tech nukes.

4) Other types of warfare were called for including germ/chemical warfare. Chemical missiles should be able to destroy all the military units in a city and reduce the population, without damaging the buildings. This would be more advantageous than using nukes.

5) There were come calls for Civilization-specific graphics for units, and even perhaps units only built by certain Civs – even if they all have the equivalent units they have different names and art.

6) There should be a way of building defensive barriers, such as Hadrian¡¯s wall in the UK. Although in Civ2 zones of control prevent units passing between two adjacent fortified units, perhaps a graphical representation would be nice.

7) There should be an option where you can build army camps outside of cities – they would function just like a normal city but would have no population, just the option to build barracks and defensive improvements. This means army units can refresh far from home.

8) There was a general feeling of avoiding ¡°micromanagement¡± – lots of little features and settings that require time and effort. The preferred emphasis was on general strategy.

9) There should be more submarine units, one diesel sub (that can¡¯t shoot nukes) and nuclear subs that can. Subs should also not be spotted by all units – nuclear subs would be underwater for weeks at a time so passing an enemy city shouldn¡¯t give away its location. It was suggested that only a destroyer and a new unit (like a motor/torpedo boat) should be able to spot subs. This would mean that destroyers are needed more as in Civ2 they are ignored when cruisers and battleships are around. This would also make subs more like the formidable weapon they are.

10) Diplomacy in Civilization needs to be greatly improved. After a conflict, instead of just signing a treaty, you should be able to design a treaty and name it. The two warring nations should be able to call a cease-fire and then compose a treaty. Several things should be able to be decided in the drawing up of a treaty, including reparations, territorial gains/losses, war guilt, disarmament. Using an example of the Aztecs versus the Babylonians, the Babylonians would propose that the Aztecs pay reparations for the war. Firstly, the Aztecs would have to agree to pay or not, and have an option to cancel the cease-fire and continue the war. If they did agree, then an amount would be proposed by the Babylonians, the Aztecs would have a chance to haggle, or to walk out of the Treaty. The same process would work for handing over of cities. If a nation accepts war-guilt, then their reputation would be tarnished but the others would not. Accepting war-guilt may sound disadvantageous, but if they desperately want to stop the war then they would try anything.

Territorial claims in treaties should also be extended to being able to ¡®paint¡¯ the squares that the Civ lays claim to. You should also be able to specify in a similar way a demilitarised zone where no-enemy troops are aloud. This diplomacy would make treaties more realistic and the game more interesting. Skill would be needed to create a successful treaty – CPU players should get annoyed if you ask too much and make the terms harsh and if you accept harsh terms then cities would revolt.

11) Computer alliances were deemed pointless as the AI rarely makes a concerted effort to attack your enemies for you. This should be improved.

12) There is an annoying problem in Civ2 where weak units can sometimes greatly damage powerful ones. For example a fortified partisan in a city can sometimes damage a veteran battleship to its red zone – even though the partisan is armed with pistols and knives! The same applies to bombers, and artillery units; both of which are relatively safe from attack during their own attacks.

13) There were complaints about city walls, making cities invulnerable until modern warfare units. This prevents enjoyable early warfare such as using chariots and elephants. It was suggested that the city wall could have a damage meter just like a unit, and artillery units such as catapults and cannons could directly attack the city wall, slightly damaging it each turn. The city should be able to repair it over several turns. In this way, a city with walls would be invulnerable, and you would have to lay siege to it, attacking the walls gradually with artillery units until they collapse and you can then take the city.
Siege tactics generally need looking at; starving food in Civ2 doesn¡¯t get rid of defending units. Laying siege of city could be an option presented when you move your unit to attack the city. A unit will be moved into city square, but no combat will occur. The city will be now under siege, unable to use any squares. At the update of the player owning the city he has an option to attack the sieging units with his garrison in the city. If he succeeds to break the siege he will be unaffected. Naval units should also be used to the same effect.

14) It was generally accepted that the United Nations wonder was flawed, and greatly irritating when the CPU forces peace.
Instead, the actual united nations should be replicated, after the building of the UN wonder. Each Civ can choose to join or not, and would have a vote in the council. The UN would vote to send a NATO force against a Civ, and if the majority vote is to attack the Civ, then the UN can send in a ¡°peacekeeping¡± force, i.e. every Civ can go to war with the condemned Civ without ruining their reputation. The UN could also be able to send in engineers to clean up pollution, if another Civ can¡¯t be bothered.

15) The Senate in democracy needs improving; the senate should not force peace with another Civ, or at least the AI should consider the other Civ¡¯s reputation – quite often the Civ you are forced to be peaceful with have captured six of your cities and have soldiers all around you!

16) There should be an option to borrow money from other Civs. If you are the lending Civ, then you should be able to specify the interest and make a fat profit.

17) Barbarians should be harder. You should be able to hire barbarians to attack enemy Civs for you, like pirates attacking enemy ships. In this way you can indirectly attack your enemies without going to war. Either this or a pirate unit like in Colonization; where you could send your privateers round to attack the enemy trade routes.

18) There should be an earlier warning that another Civ is about to finish a wonder – it least 3 turns.

19) It was suggested that caravans should be able to transport shields between cities. You should be able to cancel food trade routes.

20) More use of stacked units was called for, perhaps moving a whole stack as if it were a unit and being able to have an attack bonus (mass assault) and defence bonus for being in a stack.

21) There are mixed feelings about changing the end date of 2000AD or having space-related stuff. There were calls for linked maps such as being able to build on Alpha Centuri in another map.

22) No-one likes the idea of complex graphics that require 3D/FX – a bit unnecessary. Gameplay is what makes Civilization games!!!

23) The support model should be rethought. All units should be supported by the friendly city closest to them, up to some limit. After that they are unsupported and lose hit power, unless they either stop to perform a special forage command, or they are re-supplied by a specialist unit for this purpose. It could also be possible to have your units supplied by an ally, for which money should be paid.

24) A similar system to Alpha Centuri should be deployed to create new units. You should be able to design a new unit, with components that depend on technology. For example, say a Civ advance brings about jeeps, and you also have discovered the laser, then you should be able to stick lasers on the back of your jeep. Once designed, you would have to wait several turns to invent the new jeep, and once you have you can build them as normal. Spies can steal these blueprints allowing other Civs to make them.

25) There is a lack of air units in Civ2 which needs rectifying.

26) AI in Civ2, although improved from Civ1, has some problems. CPU Civs seem to build fortresses randomly and do not always have the best military strategy. Ships seem to be confused when a continent is in their way when using the GOTO command.

27) A newspaper should be implemented, like the newspaper in SimCity 2000. The newspaper could report Civilisation advances, city growths, war efforts etc. Instead of a message box saying war has been declared on the Celts, the newspaper could report a stunning headline. All the message boxes that are used should follow the colonisation style, a picture of the advisor and important points highlighted. Message boxes should also take into account that several of the same thing could appear, e.g. during an anarchy all of your cities could revolt, leading to twenty or thirty message boxes.

28) A propaganda rate should appear in the same way as tax, science and luxury. The more propaganda, the more you Civ will agree with what you say. In this way a Civ finding it hard to go to war because of its senate could invest in propaganda. The more propaganda, the less likely the senate is to intervene in your decisions. There should be an opposing negative effect however; perhaps its costs money and reduces the science rate or something.

29) There should be a limit on the Civ2 idea that when you take over a city you take a scientific advance. Although it represents the theft of ideas and taking over of scientific labs, if you have just taken over a city through conquest, the enemy should not get an advance if they liberate the city the following turn. A Civ would not have its most top-secret research labs in a front-line city. Perhaps an advance should only come if the city has a library/research lab and has a large population.

30) There should be lots of options of leaders to choose at the start, for example instead of Napoleon being the French leader all the time, use Clovis, Joan of Arc etc. Each leader could perhaps bring about different qualities, i.e. if you are Napoleon you get 50% attack bonus, and if you are Clovis you get more trade.

31) Improve the automated settlers feature, being able to prioritise improvements. At the moment many settlers wander aimlessly. This automated settlers feature is desperately important as most of the fun Civ2 play was distracted by ¡°micromanagement¡± with settlers.

32) Larger Map Sizes were called for, with perhaps more Civs in one map.

33) Maybe you could have a new form of government such as a Business oligarchy as ala Microsoft or the new Russian Mafia, OPEC, Asian Multi-conglomerates or some other group of super rich who simple buy up or bribe or steal everything in their way; weapons, land, cities, technology, infrastructure etc. After a certain advanced level the Diplomat could be transformed into a TRAVELING INVESTMENT BANKER looking for takeover possibilities where he could:
Hostile Takeover /Buyout
Steal Information
Stock Market Crash
Forced liquidation of asset his choice.

34) Then you could get telegraph poles that would run communication lines on the railroad. Cites that were connected by rail would also have telegraph. Perhaps cities joined by telegraph would have increased trade bonus.

35) You should be able to build bridges over ocean squares. This would allow the laying of cables from islands or continents to others and allow the transfer of electricity. Later to be able to transport trade, troops or passengers.

36) There should be a Satellite telecommunication advance. This could be used for Spy satellites, or for global electronic communication. This would allow cities to transfer funds, energy, or information; Making the resources of each culture more mobile. This way they could be sent where needed or hidden out of harms way from the tax man or the enemy.

37) References to disease were suggested. Every culture has had it¡¯s natural plagues or diseases that devastate the population regardless of the current technology. What if as a reason to develop medicine you could get immunization instead of a Shakespeare¡¯s Theater. History is full of tales where an explorer innocently devastates a culture by infecting it with a disease it is not immune too. With medicine, you could have the first vaccines for small pox, or the bubonic plague, cholera and malaria; later it could upgraded to penicillin and antibiotics, then on to cures for Cancer, AIDS, old age etc. With the cures come more people and the problems that would cause. It could be sporadic or be similar to pollution. It could be caused by too many people, lack of sanitation, lack of aqueduct water, swamps, or jungles. You could have hospitals with research and medicine that would protect your cities. You could have traveling medics such as: witch doctors / shamans, alchemists and medic teams, who could heal military units in a turn. Ambulances that roam like engineers or explorers healing the sick and clearing up the dead.

38) An advanced railroad city improvement was suggested, i.e. gravitational monorail trains. This would increase trade and increase value to the City. Lower pollution. Makes 3 more citizens happy.

39) Caravan ships were called for, ships that can carry trade and make trade routes.

40) There should be an option to keep slaves. The Slaves can be from any culture and captured by certain military or explorer units from any other culture. Capturing slaves is a grounds for war. They can be sold within the culture or to other cultures. The slave trade would end with Democracy. But if cultures choose to use slaves when they are freed they must be feed and educated or they riot and make very unhappy citizens. Freed slaves can become settlers or engineers for a price less than a new settler or engineers. It would give the game a social problem to deal with if one chooses to go down this path. Slavery makes your reputation worse and the attitude of other cultures is increased by 10 points. Slaves can be bribed and therefore freed to be settlers for the culture that frees them. Trading in slaves increase the negative reputation of both the sellers and the buyer with every purchase. The advantage is they are cheaper than new settlers and work faster than settlers.

41) There should be more cultural stuff, like upgrading the Coliseum to a Stadium. There could be Opera/Concert Houses or Movie theaters.

42) There should be a way of conquering with money. Consider Shopping upgrade to mega malls which increase the production and brings more revenue to the city but pulls revenue away from cities in a certain number of squares away. Business parks that attract white collar workers. It would be an upgrade of Manufacturing. It would also draw people away from cities that do not have it. It would cause unemployment and that would cause unhappy citizens as well as decrease the size of neighboring cities. It would also cause trade disputes and labor union problems with other cultures and could lead to more violent solutions i.e. war.

43) There was an idea about improving the emphasis on ¡®trade wars¡¯. With trade wars you could start with piracy on the seas and of caravan and develop to embargoes, search and seizures, taxes and customs on trade, dumping product to ruin a market of an appoint and take over a city. Creating trade cartels and monopolies to force others out of business and to financial ruin thereby taken them over.

44) There should be an ability for settlers to build canals. This way when you built a city which you thought was on the coast, but it turns out it was on a big lake, it can still build ships that are useful. Either this or the ability for certain naval units to travel through river squares.

45) You should be able to build tunnels that can go under ocean squares. This way when two land masses are separated by a square or two, you don't have to waste a ship, or a turn.

46) You should be able to create patrol routes. Specify two points (maybe cities) and a unit will move back and forth between the two, spotting enemies and would be useful for preventing spies and diplomats.

47) Long range bombers or planes that can stay up in the air for longer than every other turn would be good. Paratroopers should be able use bombers as a base to paradrop.

48) What about an internet wonder? After it is built, any city can build a Cisco router and to increase trade or establish trade routes without the aid of caravan?

49) The trireme unit should be improved, allowing units in it to attack other triremes. In reality, triremes would ram each other, locking the boats together and the units would jump onto the other ship and have a punch-up.

50) The system of changing government came under criticism in the newsgroup. A revolution is usually a hard process, and it was suggested that when you hold a revolution, some of your cities rebel and become separate under the old government. You must then re-capture these cities back. The conditions on whether a city would rebel or not would depend on corruption, unhappiness etc. The rebelling cities could become red cities like the cities barbarians capture (controlled by the CPU), and would function with the old government before the revolution. This would prevent players holding revolutions all the time – usually to avoid senate decisions. Clever players would attack civs when holding a revolution, as they will be divided and weak. If the rebel cities controlled by the CPU are not conquered by a certain length of time, then they will become independent and form a new nation. If the rebels by fluke defeat the mother Civ, then play returns to the player but he must use the old government.

51) There should be a system of immigration to reflect the movement of peoples. If the unhappy citizens remain unhappy for several turns, they would automatically form settlers of the nearest Civ, and would leave the city. This would challenge the player to keep his citizens happy (or they will leave!). Attacking these settlers would greatly damage a player¡¯s reputation, reflecting the unfortunate ethnic cleansing in real life. Cities should remain the same race, even though they are under the control of another Civ. In this way, conquered cities would remain the same, and would be more likely to revolt, have more corruption and less production.

52) There needs to be more scenarios included in the initial package, not in an extra expansion pack which costs more money.

53) Engineers should be able to transform terrain into ocean squares.
54) There should be certain units with the ability to attack without being adjacent to their foe. Howitzers, for example, have a huge range and should be able to bombard from a distance.

55) An improvement to the ¡°view city¡± feature, perhaps a 3D- tour?

56) Wonders of the world should create money for your civilization to represent the revenue brought by tourism. E.g. the Eiffel tower wonder would create 5 gold a turn in tourism attractions. City improvements which bring happiness (such as the coliseum) should not cost upkeep – quite the opposite as they would make a profit.

57) Cities should be able to make more than one thing at a time. Each city should initially only be able to build one thing at a time, until a factory is built. Once a factory is built, the city should be able to do two things at once, either making two units or two buildings or a combination. Manufacturing plants should also have the same effect. Infantry units should also be separate from main production – they should be available to make whilst making a building. In this way, a city could produce three tanks a turn, or concentrate on wonders etc.

58) A Civ¡¯s reputation should be tarnished if it kills non-military units, such as settlers.

59) The idea of alpine troops is not to be fortified in cities, but rather as fast-moving hit-and-run troops. Therefore they should not receive a higher defense bonus for being fortified in cities, and should be able to pass over mountains at no movement cost.

60) Suggestion 60 is a list of the many suggested new unit types.
a) Mounted archers – fast moving archers on horseback.
b) Zeppelins – airships that function like bombers. Would ignore zones of control and could ¡°scout¡± out land
c) More than one type of tank – e.g. early tanks and then heavier tanks.
d) Navy seal / Samurai – covert unit, invisible (like spy) but very powerful.
e) Mines – a mined square causes huge damage, either on land or at sea. A minesweeper unit would provide the balance. Small units would only be slowed down, but troops would get killed.
f) Military engineers. Special units that assist the rest of the army in
fighting more efficiently. Can construct military field installations,
such as trenches (any unit that enters is immediately fortified), SAM
batteries, PABs, supply routes, panton bridges (last only one or two
turns), radar arrays, etc
g) Kamikaze pilots, would function like cruise missile units in Civ2, but would be available earlier.
h) AA guns as a unit that can be placed outside cities.

61) Conscription should be a feature that you can activate on and off. Each turn, the number of riflemen units created through conscription would be half the number of people in the city. Conscripts would have a lesser attack, defense etc. than actual riflemen.

62) The city status screen should incorporate drop-down boxes for each city, allowing to change the production in each city from the city status window, rather than clicking on each city individually.

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Old August 10, 1999, 06:59   #2
Local Time: 08:22
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: London
Posts: 117
I love the idea of lending and borrowing money from another Civ - it opens up massive new possibilities, and replicates the "power" in the real world today of trading nations like Switzerland or Japan. Imagine a rival wanting to rush build a wonder - you have the cash and can charge exorbitant rates to enable them... how much do they really want to rush build it? Of course, the AI will do the same to you when you are hard up... I love it. Exorbitant rate chargers might attract some negative reputation due to resentment. And what would happen in a war? Would the debt be cancelled - perhaps only if the debtor nation 'won' the war. Wars could actually be started by creditor nations (perhaps paying mercenaries?) to make defaulting debtors restart servicing their loans. Default would be an option - but would be a major diplomatic incident. It would make gold much more important in the dynamics of the game.
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