UNITS (ver. 2.0): hosted by JT3

[Theben]

Jon Miller,
Any place is a good place for ideas, but you should probably post that under DIPLOMACY (as should wesley & I post our suggestions there).

Da Sicilian,
#1 post: Pretty much what I was thinking, only with a lot more details.

#2 post: Yikes! That was more than I want to have to consider. Also, I strongly prefer my LASS idea, I think you're familiar with it. Some suggestions, esp. naval/sub attack, would be simple enough to take into account.

[jpk]

It should be possible for diplomts and spies to be turned. If your diplomat or spy tries to bribe a unit or a city, there is some probability that you will lose the money but not get the unit or city. Furthermore the diplomat or spy would become a unit for the other player.

More generally, if your diplomat or spy tries to do something nasty, there should be some probablility that your unit becomes a unit for the other player.

I think this would make the use of spies and diplomats far more risky.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Continuing Discussion of What I Think Units Should Be Like: Naval Units:
Naval units should have a range, indicated as the number of turns they can remain at sea without passing through a ‘base’. For ancient ships and all sailing ships any tile or square containing a city, terrain Improvements related to agriculture (farms, irrigation, etc), plains, grassland, jungle, or forest constitutes a base. For powered ships the base must be a port friendly to the naval unit (owned or allied) which acts as a refueling and resupply station.
The Range concept serves two purposes:
1. It allows considerable exploration of shorelines early on, as in CivII now, but makes some explorations, as of desert or frozen coasts, almost impossible.
2. It provides some real differences between ship types that don’t exist now: one of the major advantages of the Longship over the earlier galley or trireme was its greater range - it didn’t have to pull up on the shore every night. Likewise, the deep, round hulls of the late medieval cog and carrack gave them real ocean-going capabilities based on the supplies they could carry as well as better rigging. The modern (20th century) cruiser was designed to have a huge range - hence the name, because it ‘cruises’ the oceans.
The attack factor of early ships is all close combat (no Range Factor). Only with gunpowder or when seige engines are mounted on special large galleys earlier do the naval units get Bombardment capabilities. The 20th century ships, with very long ranged cannon, central fire control, and later missiles and ‘over the horizon’ fire control have Bombardment ranges that approach those of short ranged aircraft.
If we divide all naval units into speed and cargo hulls, we can introduce the division of ancient ships into fighting galleys, which are very short ranged and have virtually no cargo capacity, and sailing vessels which can carry considerable cargo (Romans had grain freighters over 1000 tons capacity) but are almost completely defenseless. The medieval cog was the first cargo (sailing) vessel that also had a decent combat factor, because its high ‘castles fore and aft gave on-board missile troops a decisive advantage against lower galleys.

Sea Units and the Design Workshop.
Assuming a SMAC-style workshop is instituted for CivIII, here are my ideas on how to ‘build’ naval units for the historical periods.
Each naval unit onsists of:
Chassis:
Wood Plank Hull
Available very early, with an advance like Wood Working
Wood Clinker-Built Hull
Much sturdier than the above, allows both larger vessels and longer sea ranges. Requires Joinery or some similar medieval woodworking advance.
Iron Hull
Another increase in size now possible, and much more armor can be carried. This requires Wrought iron, Blast Furnaces, and other 19th century advances to be built in quantity.
Steel Hull
Almost any size hull can be built if you’ve got the engines to move it. Requires modern Steel Making (Bessemer or Open Hearth process for Bulk Steel production) advance.
Each Hull is also indicated as either a Speed Hull (long and narrow) or a Cargo Hull (fat and wide). There are also two Special Modifications of the basic hull types:
Catamaran Hull
Two waterline hulls with a deck between them. This can be made of any materials, provides a huge deck cargo space compared to ancient ordinary cargo hulls, but less cargo space compared to modern vessels. How to work this into the Advances list is a real problem: it was discovered very early in the Pacific islands and made the colonization of the Pacific possible because of the capacity and stability of the hull. It was also used for huge war Polyremes in the Mediterranean, but then abandoned there. It’s therefore a relatively early advance, but has to be given some serious negative factors so that it doesn’t become the standard hull-type for all occasions.
Pressure Hull
This is a hull built for submersibles or submarines. Using any material before Steel Hull for a Pressure Hull is basically suicidal.
There is a maximum size or capacity for the iron and wooden hull-types: you can only build them so large before the ocean starts pounding them to pieces. Steel hulls (modern) can be built effectively as large as you want, but of course that makes them more expensive, hugely harder to move at any speed, and harder to protect and easier to target.
Propulsion:
Oars
This is available at the start of the game - they were used on riverboats or rafts in the Neolithic period.
Sweeps
Longer ‘oars’ with several men on each. Used for large galleys and polyremes, more efficient that oars. Requires some sort of Geometry advance, or possibly Naval Architecture of an ancient sort.
Sails
Requires Cloth Making, Cordage, or similar Advances.
Advanced Sails
This covers all the Lateen riggings, multiple mast ships, etc. Requires Mechanics (block and tackle) and Geometry advances.
Steam
The basic Steam Engine applied to ships. Requires the Steam Engine Advance.
Steam Turbines
The Naval propulsion of most of the 20th century. Requires Steel, Special Alloys advances as well as the basic Steam Engine.
Diesel-Electric
This is the power plant for Submarines before Nuclear. Requires both Electricity with Generator/Motor Applications, and the Diesel advance.
Nuclear
Requires Nuclear Propulsion or Nuclear Power Advance.
Sweeps are long oars, each manned by several crew. Advanced Sails is a generic for the multiple-mast lateen and square sail rigging of the late medieval period through the nineteenth century. It could be further broken down into a half-dozen individual advances, but I don’t see the point of such subdividions: with various hull types and sizes, the variety of capabilities of the usual types of ships can be shown without that complication.
Weapons:
Ram
Requires Bronze-Working
Boarding
Effectiveness depends on the offensive weapons of your ground units.
Catapults
Greek Fire (an Upgrade to catapults at Sea only)
Requires Mathematics advance
Cannon
Requires Cannon, Gunpowder advances, with possibly a Naval Truck (carraige) Application of Cannon. These and the Catapults are Heavy Upgrades: many anvcient Fast Hulls simply won't be large enough to carry them safely - the classic Trireme being a case in point: only the larger Polyremes (which werre appreciably slower) could carry catapults or ballistae.
Artillery
Requires the same advances as for ground unit Artillery
Torpedoes
Requires Smokeless Powder, Steam Engine advances
Antisubmarine Weapons
Depth Charges
Homing Charges
These develop after Submarine, require some separate advance or Application after Submarine.
Missiles
Require same advances as Rockets or Cruise Missiles.
The ram can be fitted to any hull except the catamaran, but it’s usefulness (attack factors) are very low when fitted to a sailing vessel and its factors drop permanently after cannon are mounted on ships. All weapons have a Weight or Size factor, which makes it very hard to mount some combinations on some hulls.
Antisubmarine Weapons might also be included as a single package with the Antisubmarine Special Capabilities (see below). These weapons can also be modified by other technical developments: naval gunnery became much more effective and with a much longer range after the development of Central Fire Direction, advanced again with Computers, while Acoustics, Miniaturization, and Computers also made possible or upgraded both torpedoes and missiles.
Defensive Equipment
Cataphract
Wooden Hulls only, requires advanced Wood Working or Joinery
Iron Armor
Wooden or Iron Hulls only, requires Wrought Iron advance
Nickel-Steel Armor
Iron or Steel Hulls only, requires Steel and Special Alloys
Compartmentalization
Any Hull type except Catamaran: Requires a primitive Naval Architecture advance
ECM
Any Hull Type:Requires Electronics, Computers advances
Point Defense Weapons
Antiaircraft
Antiship
Requires Special Alloys, Computers, Miniaturization advances
Some defensive factor is built into the hull and propulsion type: a small Speed Hull will be harder to hit than a large Cargo hull, for instance. As with weapons, there is a Weight factor to the various armor types. Cataphract is the ancient ‘roofed’ warhsips - wooden, sometimes thin-metal sheathed ‘armor’ for the rowers. ECM*is the electronic suite of jamming and anti-targeting devices that constitutes the modern warship’s ‘armor’. Compartmentalization can be applied even to wooden hulls (Chinese ocean-going junks, for instance) and is most effective with wide, Cargo hull types.
Special Capabilities
Antiaircraft
This includes Radar spotters, guns or missiles and requires the same advances as for those weapons.
Antisubmarine
SONAR, MAD detectors, possibly the weapons as well: depth charges, hominh torpedoes and spread charges like HEDGEHOG or SUBROC
Amphibious
Supporting or carrying and landing troops takes some specialized construction: this represents it.
Cargo
Container Cargo
The ability to carry bulk goods, very important for moving Food around as a Trade Item. Requires Trade and some kind of Container Application: Pottery, Wooden Barrels, etc. The modern freight apparatus is Containerized Shipping, which also requires special constrruction, but it greatly increases the speed and efficiency of freight/trade handling.
Aircraft Handling
Flight Deck, Hanger Deck, and the paraphenalia to launch and recover aircraft: this makes the hull into an aircraft carrier. Requires Advanced Flight

Upgrades:
Certain hulls can be Upgraded or rebuilt without having to build an entirely new ship. Any wooden hull, for example, can be rebuilt or re-equipped as long as the hull configuration (Speed or Cargo) remains the same. In other words, if you have the capacity, you can mount cannon on an old wooden Cargo hull (cog, hulk, or carrack). You can also change propulsion systems: Steam engines can be mounted in existing sailing Cargo Hull or Speed Hull types. You cannot, however, change a Cargo into a Speed Hull, or make anything into a Pressure Hull - those conversions would be so extensive they amount to building an entirely new ship.

Putting It All Together:
Let’s take two examples, one ancient and one modern.
In Ancient Period, you decide to design a new Warship. You’ve just discovered Wooden Clinker-Built Hull, so you select Speed Hull for that. You get a maximum capacity number for that hull - it can only be built so big before it becomes too weak for the open sea. You have Oars, Sweeps, and Sails available for propulsion, so you fit the hull with Sweeps. Instead of a ram, you mount a catapult and Cataphract the ship for defense. The resulting vessel is displayed in red, indicating that you have a top-heavy beast which will probably turn turtle before it gets out of the harbor! Drop the catapult, return the ram. You make the hull large enough to also carry 1 ground unit (no Speed Hull has much cargo capacity at all, unless you leave everything else off!). Essentially, you’ve just designed a large Roman Polyreme as built by Vikings.
In modern period, you’ve just discovered Steam Turbines and Torpedoes, so it’s time to upgrade your Iron Hull - Steam-Artillery navy. Unfortunately, re-engining from Steam to Steam Turbine isn’t allowed: you’ll have to design a whole new ship. Start with an Iron Speed Hull, which is the best you have available. You add Steam Turbine to it and for weapons, Torpedoes and Artillery. Artillery is subdivided into Light - Medium - Heavy. You select Light and a number: 4 (range is from 1 to 20). For Torpedoes, you select 8 (range is from 1 to 10). You then toggle the required speed up (range is from 1 to 50), and discover that even with Steam Turbines, you can only push an Iron Hull so far:after about 30 the design redlines on you. You have just designed an 1895 - 1910 Torpedo Boat Destroyer. When you get the capability, you can Upgrade it with Antisubmarine Special Capability and send it after enemy submarines. Against enemy Battleships or Cruisers mounting Medium or Heavy Artillery, it will be at a disadvantage because Torpedoes and Light Artillery are shortranged, the heavier weapons are Long Range, and the ship doesn’t mount any armor. Light Speed Hulls do have some defense based on their speed and maneuverability, so it has a chance of killing a cruiser in an even fight, but much less chance against a battleship unless there is some Special Condition applying: the enemy is damaged, distracted (fighting another battleship, for instance!) or in port.
The Workshop display for each vessel would show displacement, speed, range, and weaponry and possibly armor thickness - very much like Jane’s Fighting Ships annuals did for most of this century. Range could be increased or decreased depending on how much capacity is given to Supplies. Cargo Hulls take much more propulsion to drive through the water at speed, but have much greater capacity. Modern Battleships and Aircraft Cariers actually fall into this category of hull, in that they use the capacity of the hull to mount the bigger engines required to get the speed, and the hull still has room left over to mount Big Guns, Flight Decks, heavy armor, compartmentalization, etc. Cruiser Hulls tend to be Speed Hulls, but large enough to mount a medium armament, lots of supplies, but much, much less armor than the battleship hull. The Cruiser is designed for range, not speed, and a good compromise of firepower and size, not maximum firepower like the battleship.
Finally, the display would also allow you to name the Class of Ship, and as each ship is built it can be named or designated.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

First, although there has been some discussion about using units instead of individual weapon or soldier icons, from a graphics standpoint I think we’re going to be stuck with a single figure icon. For one thing, a group simply doesn’t show up enough specific particulars to be identifable at the current levels of resolution on most screens. This doesn’t mean that the ‘soldier’ on the screen can’t be treated in other ways like a full military unit, it just means he’ll be depicted as an individual in game displays. The way to get the Combined Arms is to provide mechanisms for easily combining separate Units for combat and movement, and this can be done within the context of the game while retaining the individual iconic graphics.
Combining units into Armies, Brigades, Corps, or whatever we want to call them in the game (Army is correct by the game’s strategic scale, but many other terms have more ‘color’) should be dependant on developments in generalship, staffwork, and tactical-operational doctrine. At the lowest (semi-barbarian) level, you can’t really combine units at all. That is, you might have spearmen/axemen and archers in the same stack, but in battle they all fight as an undifferentiated mass: there’s simply no organization in the primitive army that allows tactical planning and grouping.
The Upgrading of Armies can be done two ways. First, we could have a separate General unit, whose presence graphically indicates that increasingly-sophisticated tactical combinations are now possible. The possible range of upgrades for the capabilities of this unit are:
Ancient:
Strategos up to 5 units of 2 types can be commanded
Imperator up to 7 units of up to 3 types can be commanded
Medieval:
Constable up to 10 units of up to 4 types can be commanded
Modern:
General up to 12 units of up to 5 types can be commanded
Field Marshal up to 15 units of up to 6 types can be commanded
In the Modern period there should also be an Advance or Application which provides the ability to add a Staff to the commander. This effectively doubles his command ability, and allows really huge armies to be commanded in a single battle. Staffs would be expensive to build, since they require a lot of highly-trained manpower, expensive communications, and extensive upkeep (you don’t organize experienced staffs from scratch, you keep them in training or exercising all the time - high maintenance costs). A suggested additional Wonder is the Great General Staff (originally German, late 19th century), which in this context would provide an automatic Staff to every Commander with reduced Maintenance Costs to the Civ.
The Battle Board I have described elsewhere, in one of my first posts in the Combat Thread. It would be divided into 15 tiles on a side, 3 rows each 5 tiles wide. The row would be Right Flank, Right Center, Center, Left Center, Left Flank, and the rows front to back would be Front Line, Support Line, Reserve Line. Units with ranged attack could ‘shoot’ from either the Support or (long range- mostly modern units) from the Reserve Line. The really huge army stacks would fit onto the Battle Board because the individual units could be ‘brigaded’ into Formations of 2 - 3 individual land units. These would correspond somewhat to the Battle Groups mentioned in another post. Normally, they would be all of the same type at first, but progressive developments would allow you to mix units provided they all had the same mobility. Thus, you would end up with Cavalry, Infantry, or Mechanized/Armored Formations in your ‘army’.
I suggest the term Formation because that is the usual translation of the terms used in German and Russian military terminology for Brigades and Divisions, the battlefield ‘combined arms’ units.
Formations would be ‘locked’ together (similar to the CtP technique) and move together, but could be broken down into their separate units if required to garrison or defend a large area - this would also reduce the sheer number of units that have to be moved individually every turn.
The capabilities and attributes of Land Units need to be modified and modifiable more by terrain and tactics. For example, there is no difference in weapons between a bunch of barbarians spear and swordsmen (ancient Germans, Dark Age Saxons, etc) and a Roman Legion. The difference is in the organization, discipline, and tactics of the Romans.
Borrowing a leaf from SMAC, the Advances could include Doctrine:Flexibility, Doctrine:Shock, or Doctrine:Mobility. They could also be called Tactics:Flexibility, etc - same meaning in this context. Thus, you might have Bronze Working in four different civilizations and have them end up with Phalanxes, Spearmen, Swordsmen, and Mounted Lancers depending on their application of that technology with various forms of Tactical Doctrine (and horses). This would increase the variety in the civs and also ties in with the concept of Advances and Applications which has been discussed in other Threads.
Many of the Units built with special tactics and organization have very specific capabilities according to terrain. Best example is probably the Phalanx, which can be armed with either Spears or long Pikes, and with pikes has about the same attack and defense factors as the Legion - on open, flat terrain. On that terrain it is also almost invulnerable to mounted units. In rough, wooded, and otherwise unsuitable terrain its formation breaks up and it’s factors drop to almost nothing. The Legion, by contrast, is a flexibile open formation that maintains its effectiveness in most types of terrain and can move somewhat faster than the heavy phalanx.
In more modern times, the same smooth-bore musket is the infantry weapon of choice from 1600 to after 1800, but the tactics vary from rigid firing lines to flexible attack columns, mixed columns and skirmish lines, mixed firing lines and skirmish lines, and finally to the thin semi-skirmish order firing line when rifled muskets came in in the mid-19th century. Espedially in the attack, the effectiveness of the same Musketeer unit can vary considerably during the period, based on the Tactical Doctrine applied to it.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Land Units and the Design Workshop.
Assuming a SMAC-style workshop is instituted for CivIII, here are my ideas on how to ‘build’ land units for the historical periods.
Each ground combat unit onsists of:
Chassis
(Offensive) Weapon(s)
Defensive Armor
Special Capabilities
Chassis Types: Except as noted, each Chassis can carry one weapon type, one armor type, and one Special Capability at the cost of reducing the effectiveness of the armor and weapon.
Man
Specifically, a single man or small group on foot: the earliest military ‘chassis’
Horse
The ridden animal. The Camel might be included as a variant with special features for Desert terrain. From the first, requires both a Domestication advance and the proper icon on terrain - the horse was not universally found on the landscape in 4000 BC!
Elephant.
The ridden animal.For a greater cost, can carry 50% more offensive weapons’ factor (several riders), but all of the same type to keep Factoring simple Cannot carry a Special Capability, because Elephants have a built-in Special Capability: they are 2x as effective against any horse-mounted unit (ordinary horses are scared to death of elephants). In return, armor is only 50% as effective when applied to elephants - they’re just too big to effectively protect. In addition, of course, they are not available to everyone (terrain icon required) and once gunpowder weapons appear, they are horribly vulnerable to fire.
Chariot
To keep it simple, just one type of chariot chassis, although hisorically there were several: light, medium, heavy, 2 to 6 horse teams, etc. Like Elephants, can carry 50% extra offensive weapons’ factor, but this doubles the cost (4-horse chariot with extra crew). Has the same armor restrictions as Elephants - the chariots themselves were never armored, seldom were the horses. Requires the Wheel and Domestication, but not the horse - early chariots were drawn by donkeys or asses as well
Motorized
A wheeled, powered vehicle - anything from a truck to a motorcycle to an armored car. Weapon, armor, and Special Capabilities capacity depends on the size: the bigger the more expensive and less mobile it becomes. This reqires the Internal Combustion engine development or Automobile
Mechanized.
A tracked, powered vehicle: tanks, armored personnel carriers, etc.Like the motorized chassis, this can carry varying amounts of offensive weaponry, armor, and Special Capabilities, but the cost can skyrocket and the bigger vehicles (multiple weapons, more than 1 Special Capability) are actually more vulnerable, because they are simply too big to hide and protect. This requires both Internal Combustion engines, suspension systems, and the continuous track development.
Offensive Weapon Types:
Spear
This is generic, representing the basic 4000BC close range weapon. It could also be depicted as the War Club or Axe, since those were also used from the beginning of the game’s time scale. Carried by foot or mounted (chariot, horse, camel, elephant) chassis
Sword
The basic slashing sword, requires Bronze Working. Carried by foot or mounted chassis - not as effective when carried by mounted.
Thrusting Spear
Requires Bronze Working for the point and butt spike, required for the Phalanx; When carried by Horse mounted becomes the Mounted Lancer, which can be modified by Social Choice: Fuedalism into the Knight.
Iron Sword
Either long slashing or short stabbing types, requires Iron Working. Required for the Legion; carried by foot or mounted chassis
Pattern Sword
The advanced ‘folded forged’ type, very expensive: Requires Wrought Iron or Blast Furnace advance, required for Samurai et al.
Pike
The very long, two-handed Thrusting Spear, requires Iron Working and required for the Pike Phalanx, first used by Alexander the Great and his father in Ancient times, ‘re-invented’ in the late middle ages by European Flemish cities and the Swiss. Carried only by Foot chassis
Bow
In use before 4000BC, the simple bow was not very powerful or effective. Can be carried by either foot or mounted, allowing Chariot, Elephant, Camel, or Horse Archers as well as foot bowmen. Being entirely a missile weapon, the bow has 0 attack factor - only a missile or Ranged factor.
Composite Bow
The horn - bone - sinew recurved bow of central Asia was much more powerful, can be carried by either foot or mounted. Requires not only Domestication Advance, but also Nomad civilization type and over 50% plains, desert, or grassland tiles in your Tribal (city) radius - if you have good bow woods available, you'll never develop this!
Long Bow
The main effect of the English medieval longbowmen actually came from their massed use by organized groups and their heavy armor-piercing arrows. Requires Steel or advanced iron working for the arrow points and balances. Carried only by Foot chassis
Lance
The couched iron-pointed weapon of the Armored Lancer or Knight. Requires both Steel and Stirrups to use. Carried only by Mounted chassis
Catapult
In ancient times these almost never appeared outside of seiges because of their limitations: hard to move and aim at moving targets, usually built on the spot from parts carried in the supply wagons. Only, therefore, carried (pulled) by Foot chassis, requires Mathematics advance
Bombard
The first real use of gunpowder was against castle walls, not troops. This would be the immediate Application of the Gunpowder Advance. All Artillery types have their own chassis, which is animal-drawn (carraige and limber) and slow. They can also be mounted on Motorized or Mechanized Chassis
Musket
The smooth-bore musket. It could be subdivided into the Arquebus, Matchlock, and Flintlock Muskets, but in game terms they all come and go in less than 50 turns: is it worth it? Carried by either foot or mounted, with lower factors if mounted, representing carbines or pistols - lesser firearms used by the cavalry and dragoons.
Cannon
The first battlefield artillery. The smoothbore weapons of the the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries. Requires Gunpowder, Ballistics, and Bronze Casting techniques. One possible variant would be Horse Artillery, a discovery in which for slightly less Attack Factor (lighter guns) and more expense you can have Cannon as fast as your cavalry. Would require an application of Tactics: Mobility
Rifle
The single-shot rifled breechloader that dominated 19th century warfare. It coincides with the big Conscript armies of that period, but their development started before rifles were adopted by the armies as a basic weapon. Better to have a separate Advance or Application: perhaps Pecussion Caps as an Application of Chemistry or Industrial Chemistry. Carried by either foot or mounted, with same factors for either.
Machine Gun
This stands for the development of the modern infantry in 1916 - 1930, equipped with lots of light crew-served weapons instead of all individuals with rifles. Has a tremendous advantage in firepower over the rifleman and all before him. Requires Machine Tools, Smokeless Powder developments. Carried by foot chassis or mounted on motorized or mechanized chassis
Artillery
Modern steel guns with recoil mechanisms. Requires Machine Tools, Hydraulics, Exterior Ballistics - a host of developments goes into this weaponry.
Rocket
The Battlefield Rocket is the most modern artillery development, either as individual rockets carrying nuclear or multiple warheads, or as Multiple Rockets whose launchers can put 12 to 50 rockets on a target in seconds. Like artillery, this can be horse-drawn or mounted on motorized or mechanized chassis. Requires Rocketry advance.
Defensive Armor Types:
Scale Armor
Requires Bronze Working; carried by either foot or mounted, but 50% less effect on elephants, camels, or chariots.
Mail Armor
Requires Iron Working; same chassis and as Scale Armor, but 50% more effective.
Plate Armor
Requires Wrought Iron or primitive steel. Same chassis as Scale Armor, but much more expensive than earlier types and 100% more effective..
Each of the above could have a shield connected with it as well: an oval Pelta with the Scale Armor, a round Viking or Germanic shield with the mail, and a ‘kite’ shield with the plate. The large round Hoplon and the rectangular Roman Scutum should be saved to denote the Phalanx and Legion, respectively. Effects of all shields is to increase protection against any Ranged ancient weapons except Catapults by 50%
Rivited Armor
The earliest armor applied to vehicles; requires modern Steel advance. Carried by Motorized or Mechanized chassis; amount carried varies, with greater weight giving better defensive factors until the vehicle becomes immovable!
Welded Armor
Advanced steel armor applied to vehicles; requires Electric Arc Welding application to modern Steel advance and Face Hardening application to Alloys. Carried by motorixed or mechanized chassis.
Composite Armor
Modern ‘Chobham’ type armors applied to vehicles; requires Composite Materials advance. Carried by motorized or mechanized chassis.
Each of these could be associated with a particular ‘look’ on an armored vehicle: Rivited would be boxy, studded with rivit heads; welded would be rounded, like the WWII Sherman or T-34, Chobham would be angular and angled, like the modern Abrahms.
Special Capabilities:
Amphibious
This is applicable to modern equipment and troops only: it usually results in a slight reduction in the capabilities of the offensive weapons and defensive armor.
Airborne
This is applicable to modern equipment and troops only. The equipment has to be very light, which will probably mean it will have to be designed specifically for airborne use, not just modified from the regular material used by the rest of the army. When applied to mechanized or motorized chassis, there will be a maximum factors/weight allowed for the resulting fighting vehicle, based on the capability of your air units - the longer you’ve had Air Transport capability, the higher the limit.
Reconnaissance
This is applicable in all periods. It means the troops have been trained to scout and observe the enemy. Gives increased vision range to the unit, but also increases the maintenance costs, because they have to be kept trained. Troops hired from Barbarians or Nomad Civs all have this Special Capability automatically.
Many Special Capabilities will be related to specific advances, for instance:
Sapper
Assault Engineer troops, with increased attack factor agains forts, fortifications, or city walls and when fighting into or out of cities. Requires advances or applications for Flamethrowers, Special Explosives.
Night Vision
Increased movement and combat factors using advanced Night Vision equipment. This requires Laser, Imaging, Computer advances.
Anti-Tank
Increased attack and defense factors against Mechanized or Motorized units. Requires Rockets, Monroe Effect Explosives.
Alpine/Mountain/Jager
The all-terrain light infantry. Requires development or advances in Military Skiing, Light Alloys, Special Explosives.
Ranger
Or, Special Forces, SAS, Commandoes, etc. Troops trained to slip through enemy zones of control and do a lot of the “dirty tricks” associated with the CivII Spy Unit. Requires advances in Special Explosives, Light Alloys, and also very high maintenance and building costs, reflecting a lot of expensive special training. Cannot be applied to any unit with Mechanized equipment, and even more expensive than usual if applied to Motorized units.

Putting It All Together:
Two examples, one ancient, one modern.
In the ancient period, you’ve just discovered the Advance for Iron Working. You already have Bronze-Working, Domestication, and Tactical Doctrine: Flexibility. Most of your units now are Swordsmen (bronze) and Phalanxes. You go to work on the Applications of Iron Working: Mail Armor and Iron Stabbing Swords. You don’t bother with Pikes. Once you have the two Applications, you equip a Man chassis with mail armor, shield, and stabbing sword, then start training under Doctrine: Flexibility. This results in an icon labeled Legion and a cost to re-equip and train each of the remaining Swordsmen and Phalanxes in the army. The Swordsmen are easy to retrain since they already fight individually as the Legion does, but they require extensive re-equipment. The Phalanxes require extensive retraining and re-equipping, so it will cost a lot of time and money to completely redo your army.
In the modern period, you have Machineguns, Artillery, Steel, and have just discovered the Internal Combustion Engine (automobile). You decide to develop the first Armored Cars. In the Design Workshop, you pick a Motorized Chassis. Under Propulsion there is a slider bar. You put it half-way up, mounting a pretty powerful engine on your chassis. Similar slider bars appear when you select Weapons: Artillery or Weapons: Machineguns and Defense: Rivited Armor. You put armor to near minimum (2), Artillery to 50% and Machineguns to 50%. These represent a combination of number and size, arc of fire, etc of the weapons. You discover as a result that you have a relatively heavy, slow, powerful armored car, with a red message indicating that off the roads or clear plains/grassland terrain its movement will be only 1: it gets stuck a lot! You drop Artillery to 0, Machineguns to 25% and add Special Capability: Reconnaissance. As a result you get a very fast, more mobile armored scout car to replace your light (horse) cavalry. You also get a cost for building each such unit and a maintenance cost per turn - high, because the technology is new and reconnaissance special capability requires heavy and constant training. You can take your cavalry units to cities or fortifications and convert them to armored scout car units: it will be less expensive than training new units from scratch, but still expensive because almost all the eequipment will be new and the continuous training costs for maintenance remains. The longer you have the Internal Combustion advance and the Motorized chassis the more capable and less expesive the chassis becomes, representing the continuous refining of the technology: after 10 - 20 turns, you could probably have your heavy armored car with decent mobility on or off the roads, Trouble is, by then you will probably face enemy tanks with even heavier combinations of armor and weapons possible because of the greater capacity of the Mechanized chassis.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Helicopters have a special place as units because they fall into several categories simultaneously. Normally, we think of them as air units, or in a design workshop (ala SMAC) as a Rotary Wing Chassis. However, they can also be used as Support weapons (Specialized Bombardment) for ground units, especially with antitank capabilities. They can also be a factor reducing casualties, since Medevac helicopters getting wounded into surgeries faster have greatly reduced the number of permanent casualties in battle, turning them into temporary casualties that can be returned to duty. Finally, helicopters can be applied to almost all modern surface naval units, which carry 1 - 2 helicopters for Special Capabilities like antisubmarine attack and defense, antimissile defense (decoys and reconnaissance) and enhanced gunnery effects by using the choppers to spot for the guns from altitude.
Therefore, I suggest that the Helicotper as an Advance be followed by several Applications of Helicopters, as follows:
Medevac
When included in a stack (army) of ground units, increases the Hit Points of all units in the stack by 50%.
Air Assault
An air unit Chassis, to which can be applied weapons, defensive systems or armor, and Special Capability-Cargo which allows it to carry foot chassis troops. The classis Vietnam-era helicopter usage.
Sea Kings
A Special Capability for surface naval units. This provides Reconnaissance (double vision range) for the naval unit (ship), +25% factors for any offensive guns or missiles, and +50% defensive against cruise missiles. If added to a ship with Antisubmarine Capability, it doubles the effectiveness of attacks on submarines. The downside is that this is a very heavy system: a WWII-type destroyer, for instance, is usually too small to carry it.

[NotLikeTea]

Geurilla Warfare:

What about this as a kind of special ability? Units with this ability would be able to attack units, but not fight to the death. They would, say, attack untill they themselves are wounded to 50% and then stop. Maybe they would be given an extra point of movement to retreat?

This would allow you to sneak into enemy territory, and do damage, with a minimum of units. It wouldn't be too powerful since it would not do as much damage as a normal attack. Perhaps it could work like SMAC artillery, where it cannot fully destroy a unit (except maybe civillian units?)

Of course, this would be soemthing often used by barbarians...

[Ecce Homo]

Has anybody mentioned land/sea mines or poison gas? I would like to see these, but I do not know how to implement them.

------------------
The best ideas are those that can be improved.
Ecce Homo

[loinburger]

Ecce Homo:

In the Combat Thread (I think) I mentioned using cluster bombs (fired by bombers or artillery) to place "fragmentation mines", small mines that don't do a whole lot of damage but slow down an enemy and increase the effectiveness of bombing runs. This would be one possible use of mining, as a special ability for an artillery/bombing unit (the frag mines would only be effective until a unit removed them or until they damaged a certain number of units).

Another possibility for mining would be as a terrain improvement. Engineers (I don't think Settlers should have the mining capability) could pack a square full of mines which would be visible to you but not your opponents. Your units could move into and out of a mined square without any damage penalties (although perhaps with a movement penalty), and enemy units would suffer heavy casualties/movement penalties if moving through the mined square.

As for a mine-layer unit, I don't like the idea. It would be too specialized and could be abused. If mining were a terrain improvement then there could be a cost associated with it every time it was used, and if it were an artillery/bomber special ability then the mining themselves would be little more than a delaying tactic and could not be abused as it would do relatively little damage. But a mine-layer unit/a unit with the mine-layer special ability could literally PACK the ground with mines. I hate rush games, but mining units would effectively kill a rush game, which I don't think should be done.

[Ekmek]

Diodorus:

I like your stuff! well developed and thought out (you must be betwen books!) a lot of the stuff should be included in the combat section (actually I haven't checked yet if you put it there but it should). I like it because it backs my idea that there should be a strategic level but the zoom function should take you to the tactic level (an operational level war I don't think is necessary yet).

I'm all for the generalship idea and how different ages let you command different size armies, there definetely needs to besome C2 represented in Civ3. But besides the Prussian/General staff lets adda West Point wonder to train leaders (slight bias)

I think the formation idea totally backs my idea that as you progess through the ages organizational advances should be included and you generals should have an AI to know how to fight with that formation (real time fights too).

NLT: guerrilla warfare is great if they add a real time tactical level the hit and run tactics would be possible (GW is really only at tactical levels). I would like to see a revolutionary warfare ability but it would to hard to simulate idetifying and isolating a cities/regions elites and instituing a counter/shadow state, dau tranh (if you wan too) etc. and doing the whole rev war thing. I'm going try and wok on it, unless somebody has any ideas? (But take it to the combat thread!)



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"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
- Jim Morrison

[loinburger]

I don't think this has been posted yet, but if it has, I'm sorry.

I think there should be a repairs unit. Perhaps the Engineer unit could double as a Repair Unit unit-it could perform some rudimentary field repairs in one turn for a cost, or could 'terraform' the unit to full working capability in two or three turns. This could help with siege warfare and would cause an attacker to not have to return home for repairs all the time. The engineer should not be able to completely heal a unit, but should max out at 80% healing or something.

Or, if this would make the engineer too powerful, then a second unit type (or unit capability) should be created in order to serve this purpose. Again, such a unit would be vital to keep an attack moving. Mines and raids would still serve their purpose as a delaying tactic, as the advancing army would have to slow down to repair. But, this unit/capability would help balance delaying tactics vs. rush tactics.

[Jimmy]

I just thought of a new unit: "The traveler"
It would not belong, not be controlled by any civ and it would move through territories at random. When the unit reached a city it would share information about the other civs eith you for a price.
Here is an example of what it would look like: the traveller unit would wander at random across the map, when it reached one of your cities, you would get a message like "A traveller from distant lands has reached [name of city]. The locals are amazed by his stories. He will share his knowledge with you for 100 gold pieces." If you clicked "yes" you might get maps, info on tech level of another civ, how much money they have, a WoW they are building etc... If you clicked "no" the unit would leave. Of course, their could be a chance that the knowledge is worthless, and you would get a message "Alas, the info from the traveller was just tales, nothing worthwhile"

[Jimmy]

I just thought of a new unit: "The traveler"
It would not belong, not be controlled by any civ and it would move through territories at random. When the unit reached a city it would share information about the other civs eith you for a price.
Here is an example of what it would look like: the traveller unit would wander at random across the map, when it reached one of your cities, you would get a message like "A traveller from distant lands has reached [name of city]. The locals are amazed by his stories. He will share his knowledge with you for 100 gold pieces." If you clicked "yes" you might get maps, info on tech level of another civ, how much money they have, a WoW they are building etc... If you clicked "no" the unit would leave. Of course, their could be a chance that the knowledge is worthless, and you would get a message "Alas, the info from the traveller was just tales, nothing worthwhile"

[ember]

Does that require a whole new unit, or can a random event suffice?

With a unit you bring in the problem of writing a wole new AI routene, where a random event would be easier to program and give the same results.

The repair unit is a good idea, it would simulate a forward supply and staging area where new men and equipment could be integrated into exising units.
I think that you should not normally be able to repair at all within an enemy's borders, to simulate supply lines. (you have to take the soldiers off the front lines before you can effectivly add new troops)


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"Any technology, sufficiently advanced,
is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clark
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by ember (edited July 18, 1999).]</font>

[loinburger]

Traveller: I agree, this sounds more like a random event than a unit, since the computer would always control the travellers (unless we use the Tourist unit previously suggested ). There could always be the element of "kill the traveller (which would be an atrocity) in order to prevent rivals from talking to him/her", but really what the unit would add would not be worthwhile to program. As a random event it would be a good idea, however, and would depend on a. how open your society is (social engineering), b. how many Wonders of the World you've got, c. your population's happiness, and d. effectiveness of travel (how good is the world's road system?) Or, as an additional event, emigrants/defectors could bring over information as well. The more open your society, the more travellers will go through. The more repressive, the more defectors/emigrants will leave and go to other Civs.

Repair unit: I saw your post on another thread (Combat, I believe), and have answered it there. Will move it here if you think I should.

[Ekmek]

I'm all for the mines (there should be wire obstacles, tank traps etc.) The closest I ever saw them simulated in Civ2 was the scenario 2194 days (great WW2!) using Anti-tank ditches instead of walls. The other I tried by making mines one unit and obstacles another. They had a movement of 1 which was a problem but no attacking ability. Mines had a high firepower and used for defense. Obstacles had hit points and also no attacking aility. Both had a defense between 5 to 10. But still is wasn't satisfying. I think the Engineer is better. A Combat Engineer unit I suggested earlier could be used. It could also breach obstacles, serve as a sapper (both in the early days when they would seige castles digging "saps", diagonal trenches and under walls) or as a demolitions expert (similar to a spy).

Poison gas: Yeah I feel that the WW1 scenario although a great icon didn't epresent it well. It should not kill units, but cause serious damage (and affect morale/cohesion), but it also should pollute the terrain it was used on (I tried in vain to do this through the events.txt no luck). The pollution should be contamination (of course there are persistent and non-persistent agents but Civ2 would probably stick with persistent agents to make poison gas different than a bombardment). Contaiminated terrain should weaken the strengthen of a unit if the cross into (unless they have NBC gear which could be another advance or you can have a chemical school as an improvements and have units train there).

As another topic: The ability of Spies should each be a toggle (I.e. cause revolt, invetigate city etc.) each one you could select as a separate attribute as to whether or not a unit could do it. This would be an easy way to simulate strategic bombers (I.e. they could damage city improvements, drop propaganda leaflets/incite a revolt, investigate cities/aerial recon).

It would be easy by I still favor adding a tactical level option and a bettercombat system.


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"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
- Jim Morrison

[Theben]

I feel it necessary to remind everyone that we are talking about a strategic level game here. The ideas are good, but try to think if there are ways it can be already considered to be in the game. Mines, FE, can be assumed part of the "fort" or "city walls" of a defense. Want to use them to slow the enemy? Pillage the road instead, which effectively "mines" it. You will need combat engineers to sweep the mines clean (rebuild the road). Until then, all units must be careful of the "mines" (slowed due to no road).

[CivPerson]

Pardon me if I duplicate ideas here. Think of it as an agreement to similar ideas.

- Have a new unit called Ambulance (0/0/4 - treats all terrain as roads) when you discover the advancement called Red Cross. This unit would be allowed to carry (1) INJURED land unit. Make it an international incident if another Civ Destroys this unit when it is loaded only.

- A Triplane unit then a Biplane unit then a before the fighter

- Jet Fighters that can carry 2 missiles

- An Apache Attack helicopter upgrade to the helicopter

- Air reconnaissance Units in advancement order:
1. Balloon (0/1/10)
2. Blimp (0/1/15)
3. Seisina Plane (0/1/20)
4. SR-71 (0/1/30)

- Train (0/4/1). This unit can transport say up to 8 land units. Have it restricted to RR movement with the ability to load and unload land units anywhere along the track. This will make up for other land units not having the unlimited movement when outside a city.

- Land Transport Units for non mech. units (i.e. riflemen, marines, etc., in advancement order:
1. 5-Ton truck (0/5/3) Carries 4 units
2. Bradley armored transport (0/6/3)Carries 6 units (Treats all terrain like roads)

-Jet/Plane Transport Units that can carry SEVERAL land units from City to City (and air strips), in advancement order:
1. C-130 Plane (0/5/10) Carries 2 units
2. C-141 Jet (0/6/15) Carries 4 units
3. C-5 Jet (0/8/20) Carries 8 units

- Helicopter Transport Unit same idea as the jet except it can load/unload on any Unoccupied land square.
Helicopter Trans (0/6/10) Carries 4 units

- Sea Mines (0/12/0) Built like all other units (has maintenance - just like missiles)
*Must be launched by ship or plan when on a water square
*Invisible once launched (even to the Civ that built it)
*Can hurt all sea units that passes over it (even the Civ that built it)
*Once launched it cannot be removed until it is hit by a ship or until...

-Sea Miner Unit (0/8/4) When it passes over a Sea Mine it removes it.

-Engineer Unit improvements:
1. Allow to build canals so that ships can pass through land.
2. Allow to build land mine fields hit of 8
*The land mine square can not have Irrigation or Mining improvements at the same time.
*Visible only to the Civ that built it.
*Can hurt all Land Units that passes over it (except engineers w/miner tech)
*The Civ that built it can also be damaged.
*Remains active until hit by a unit or removed by an engineer with mining tech.
*No maintenance required
3. Allow a future improvement (Miner Tech) to allow Engineers to search and remove mines.

Can you say?
- FROGMEN (3/3/3) which can go on land or sea (can get lost at sea) , upgradable to Hovercrafts (5/4/6)

[cloneodo]

If there were to be mines, would the population become unhappier the more mines you laid. Perhaps a Propoganda Wonder could be built which would negate the unhappiness caused by the laying of mines.

[Mo]

The blimb/zepplin unit should be able to lightly bombard a city not just recon. In return they should be easy targets for fighters if not escorted.

[JPetroski]

Hey, give me some credit on that tank ditches! Im the one who used it first (to my knowleadge) in "Up The Deadly Boot", and was credited in the 2194 Days oF War readme =)

------------------
John Petroski
JPski7@aol.com

[Iceman88888888]

How about having spies abit like caravans in CTP? Like Tell them where to go/wat to do etc. And they may/may not get their

[Maniac]

diodorus siculus requested on SE thread!

[loinburger]

Poison Gas: Would this really cause pollution? Nerve Gas dissipates in minutes, and Mustard Gas dissipates in days to weeks in the worst of conditions. If the game went day by day then pollution would make sense coming from this stuff, but normally it goes year by year and all pollution would be long gone (unless you use Uranium Dust or something, I suppose). However, it should be possible to tweak a weapon so that it causes pollution for purposes of creating scenarios.

[Theben]

Iceman88888888,
Check out the DIPLOMACY thread. I've asked for spies (& caravans in TRADE) to be replaced by spy MISSIONS, which IMHO would be more realistic, allow more options, and require much less micrio-management on the player's part. Kind of like a fire-and-forget spy.

[jpk]

Hopefully this is the right place for this suggestion.

The units in Civ II have predetermined offensive and defensive capabilites. The result is that when you get some advance, say conscription, the player knows, in advance, the offensive and defensive capabilites of riflemen. I propose randomizing this as in the following example:

Suppose that a rifleman normally has 5 offensive points and 4 defensive points. (Bear with me in case I got the exact number wrong.) At the beginning of the game the computer a random number say between 4 and 6 or the offensive capabilities of every rifleman in the game and a random number between 3 and 5 for the defensive capabilities of every rifleman in the game. Distribution needn't be uniform and the choices needn't be independent.

The effect of this would be to introduce greater variation into the game. People who play the game repeatedly would have to figure out in each game the particular capabilites of riflemen. The result would be that players would have to adapt their strategies to the capabilites of the units.

While I use riflemen as an example, this procedure could be followed for every military unit.

[The Brain]

MINES- Mines would be built as a normal units but when it is finished you are asked where you want to put it. If you put it in the city radias it causes unhappiness (unless you have the Propaganda Wonder as mentioned in other peoples post). Your units would be able to pass over it since they know where it is. If an enemy unit passes over it, KABOOM! The unit is severly damaged or destroyed. The downside is that it destroys one improvement in that square.

If the mine is placed in the city radias of an enemy, chances are they would fine it right? Well, if THEY found it (be a 50-50 chance if they did) it becomes theirs and they can use it against you.

If it's placed in territory that is not yours or theirs. Chances are that you could set the mine of and your units could get damaged or destroyed. Also, chances are that a neutal units could hit it and be destroyed. Your reputation probably wouldn't be hurt since they wouldn't know.

If placed in the sea it becomes a sea mine. Your ships are somewhat in danger of hitting it due to ocean currents and the large size of ships. If it goes off and is right next to the shore, one of you water improvements (port facility, harobr, etc.) is destroyed. All the other things for sea mines are the same as land mines.

Other units could be developed if the mine units is used. Anti-mine tanks, metal detector units, hand gernade units to find or set off the mines.

[Theben]

jpk,
That's not a bad idea and this is the right place to post it. It will also depend on what combat system Firaxis eventually uses, since there are at least 2 others in the the COMBAT thread that are approved by players.

Brain,
That's sounds like it should be a tile improvement. Minefields should cause unhappiness, but there's no logical reason for an enemy to be able to use your minefield against you; you already know where it is (this is assuming that you don't lose your old mine maps as has happened in reality. You might introduce the risk of being hit by your own mines). The field also shouldn't destroy any TI's or units; more like spy sabotage or "bombardment"; can damage a unit but never destroy it, it also might lower the morale of the unit for a turn. Farmers can still farm in minefields, they just risk losing their lives is all. Hence the unhappiness if a minefield is in a(ny) city radius.

Lastly, instead of creating new units soley for minelaying/sweeping just say that any military or engineer can do it. Much simpler.

[loinburger]

I'm not sure if mines should destroy terrain improvements. Perhaps it could be an option, as in if you're mining enemy territory and there's a road on the square then you could mine the road, the mines go off, no more road. But I don't see how mines would destroy a forest or farm (farm maybe, if you've got enough of them, but forest?)

A possibility which would be more viable than having a mine destroy a random terrain improvement or having terrain improvement destruction be a mining option is if a mine degraded a movement terrain improvement down to a Path (see terrain improvements) or down to the next lowest level of move improvement (rail would go to road, etc.). I personally am in favor of everything getting blown down to a Path, but that would require that Path be a terrain improvement, which may not be the case.

[wesley32]

I'm all for mines. I've tried to create them in Civ II with some success. I think they should destroy any enemy ground unit that crosses it's path. Kind of like a nuke, it destroys the unit automatically regardless of the units defense and hit points put just not pollute or destroy units within multiple squares. I also like the idea of apache's and
jets that can carry cruise missles (laser guided bombs). I also think Civ III must have a radar device of some sort.

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