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Old August 14, 1999, 00:41   #61
Harel
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Summarizing diplomatic post

First, a short warrning. This is a long post. Here, I including a summary of my last two posts, and some new definations, explantions and options. I also note how I would like so see the diplomatic screen, and all the diplomatic options you should have. In a nutshell, I include here a full explnation of a complete diplomatic screen.

<u>List of topics:</u>

1. Taking over cities.
2. Atrocities.
3. Hostality.
4. Diplomatic options.
5. Trade screens.
6. Diplomatic negotions.
7. Treaties.
8. Pact levels.
9. Concuil
10. Long memory


1. Taking over cities

This isn't diplomacy related, but I need to explain the difference, since I used it in my model. When you take over a city, you may do the following things:

* Take over.
* Pillage ( get some money and technology, but make the populce more hotile and destory some structures ).
* Raise ( city is destroid, all populce becomes slaves*, all buildings are scrapped for cash )
* Decimtate ( only available in Genocide, and the only option in Genocide. Completly destory the city. You gain nothing from it. Mor explantion later. )

* Slaves: A 1/1/1 unit that you may take to another city and add it to the populace. Some of the slaves will become refugaes that will fled to other nations. The higher your police rating, the less likely it will happen.

2. Atrocities

Atrocities are a broad terms for "bad" things, or "unaccepted" ones, that you may use it to complain and push on other players. For example, if Side A spy on side B ( minor atrocities ). Side B, or unrealted side C, may complain to the concuil and make it hostile toward side A.
Moderate and minor atrocities are only known to the sides involved ( and everyone who might have been in the vision area ). Major atrocity will be known to every nation after 3 turns.
Huge atrocity is known to everyone after 1 turn.

Minor atrocities: Incidendts. Low level of hostality.

Spying, Framing, Declaring strikes ( see pacts ), Taking over a city, sneaking into enemy land.

Moderare atrocities: Medium level of hostality.

Sabotage ( destroying some structure ), using low-level illegal weapons* on units, Pillaging city, declaring war, bombaring a civilian city, attacking a civilain unit ( caravan, settler ), raiding a trade route.

Big atrocities: High hostality.

Terrorize ( planting a virus, poison, etc ), killing a diplomat, declaring Genocide, raise a city, using low-level illegal weapons* on cities.

Huge atrocities: Declaring war***.

Decimtate city, using nukes on cities, using high-level illegal weapons** on cities.

* - chemical/biological weapons on units ( like in SMAC ).
** - chemical/biological missiles.
*** - The response for a Huge atrocity is an immdiate declaring strike ( see section 8 ).

3. Term: "hostality"

The hostality factor will be used several times in my post, so I will define it now. In the old games, you had a diplomatic-level slider-bar to show how much the AI liked/hated you. You had no such slider for human players. This will change. In my suggestion, you will have a bar for human players: it will just change much faster. For example, if you just fought someone ( sliderbar "Hostile" ), you can't offer him unity, the public will hate you. You sign peace. One turn after that, the Sliderbar read ( "Netural" ). For human/human relations, the bar change much faster. When you chose a diplomatic option that I say to cause hostality, the bar will drop lower.
The level of diplomatic realtions decide how much trade you get. The more friendly you are to that player, the more trade you will get from him. And, if you are playing in democracy and a become very hostile toward some player, the senate might over-rule you and declare on his own war on that player.
Therefor, if you make a certain player very hated in view of the concuil, he will get much less trade and maybe some will declare war on him.
Also, if Side A ( human ), makes side B ( AI ), more hostile toward side C ( AI/Human ), side B might declare war on side C. Therefor, hostality is the term I used on how you manipulte players against one another.

4. Diplomatic options

This section list all the diplomatic options you have:

* Request: a polite form of asking for something. Open trade screen, and put what you want in the "request" section ( see section 5 ). Also the way to request signing treaties.
* Demand: like request, but more chance the AI will accept. Cause hostality.
* Gift: open up trade screen, and up what you want to give in "give" section ( see section 5 ). An accepted gift improve reltions. You may also sign treaties this way ( you "give" them a "trade treaty" ).
* Contract: open up trade screen and offer side B an exchange ( must have atleast one thing in both sections ).
* Trade agreement: like Contract, but it's a fixed trade agreement.
* Declare war: You declare war on the current second side. You may only declare war if your pact level is peace of lower: you can't declare a war on an ally or a union member ( see section 8 ). Select war level: strike/war/genocide ( see section 8 ). You also use this section to make the war more hostile ( strike->war->genocide ). However, the decreese the level of war you must select a peace treaty.
* Complain: you may send a formal complain on any atrocities the second side did in the last 10 turns. Cause level of hostality according to the level of atrocitiy ( remember! Complaing on a huge atrocity leads to an immdiate declarting of strike ).
* Inform: you can tell side B about atrocities you know about ( and then he can use them ).
* Break treaty: you may cancel any treaty you signed, or you may drop a level in your pact level ( one every turn ) Unity->Alliance->Peace.
* Negotaite: Side A ( you ) act like a connector between side B and side C. You may ask side B to:

<list>
declare war/strike on side C.
Sign no-aggression pact with side C.
Ask side C to join a concuil.
Complain to side C against an atrocity side C did.
Embargo: cancel trade with side C.
Spy on side C.
</list>

For example, if side C spied on you, you may ask side B to complain side C on side C spying "minor atrocities". If side B accept, then side C will recive something like this: "we have learned that you spy on our friends "side A". We demand you stop at once!"
Framing is also considered an atrocity. You may demand ( by selecting complain and picking that atrocity ) from side B to admit to side C that he spied on him, and not you ( or side D, your friend ). Side D might ask you ( side A ) to make side B admit he spied to side C, not side D. How is this done?
Side D learned ( by his intel ) that side C framed him for sabatoging against side B. He "inform" you. That atrocity is now in your database. You might then complain on your own accord: complaining to side C with this atrocity.

5. Trade screen

The trade screen is used for trade between two nations. It's automaticly pop-up and updates when the diplomatic debate goes on. The trade screen is split into 2 tables, each with 10 lines. The first table is dubbed "Give" and the second is dubbed "recieve". The "Give" section is what side A gives side B, and the "receive" is what side B gives to side A. Ofcourse, the names of the tables is in relevence to who is the user. If side A gives 1 navy unit to Side B, then for side A it would appear on "give", and for side B in "Recieve".

There are two definations of trade:

<u>Fixed trade</u>

Fixed trade is a trade agreement that accures every turn, until canceled. It either can describe a fixed tribute, or a trade of A per B. As ever, it depends on what is agreed. In fixed trade, you may trade:
Food, Money and Resources ( Shields in civ II format, or resources if used in civ III ).
You may trade either a fixed amount, or a fixed portion of the income. For example:
Side A gives 100 credits every turn to side B, and side B gives side A 10% of his food production.
The food and Shields are pooled, and can be diverted either to a single city or spread equally to all cities in the empire.

<u>Single trade</u>

Single trade is a single contract, in which both parties agree to something. With this screen, you may sign treaties, contracts and give/trade for many items. Also, you may also sign fixed trade by it. For example:
Side A gives side B 100 credit, 10% of his food product, and side B will sign an alliance with side A and give him a city.
So, you may trade the following:
Money, Shields ( or resources ), Fixed trade ( per turn ), sign treaties ( see next section ), cities, lands, units, unit design ( selling a good unit-design, see treaty 8 section 7 ) and technology.
Also, you may trade in "general amounts" of item. For example: for example, Side A can give side B "xenology tech and biology tech", or he can "2 general techs", "several general techs", "2 nature-based techs", "several nature-based techs". When the second side view the offer, he decided exactly what he wants. Another example:
Side A ask side B for "several units".
Side B offer side A "several navy units".
Side A ask side B "three navy units".
Side B offer side A "three frigate ships".
Side A ask side B "offer me four".
Side B tell side A "accepted".

6. Diplomatic negoations to trade

All those marked with "*" will cause "long memory" ( see section 10 ).
All those marked with "**" may cause regret ( see later ).

Comments

This section describe the response you may do when dealing with trade. You are considered side A on this part. If Side A didn't accept of changed side B offer, then the number ( 1 ) after the description reflect how will side B react to this refusal.

<u>1. Comments on demand:</u>

Side B demands something from side A. responses are:

"We are more then happy to give it to you". Hand over requested items.
"We will give you want you want, but we won't forget this." -*- Hand over requested items.
"Maybe if you would add this..." Open trade screen, add something to "receive" ( side B "give"'s ). (6)
"We can't give you this, but maybe you will approve of this" Change whats in "give" ( side B "recive"'s ).(6)
"Sadly, this is impossible". Cancel demand.(5)
"How dare you! We wish no more connection with you". -**- Cancel all treaties and drop to no-aggersion pact. End demand.(5)
"not only that we will not give you this, but we shell destroy you also!" -**- declare war on side B.

<u>2. Comments on request:</u>

Side B request something from side A. Responses are:

"We are happy to help our friends." Hand over requested items.
"Sadly, we can't give you what you ask". Cancel request.(7)
"We can't offer you this, but maybe you will like..." Change what side B request.(8)
"Maybe if you just could..." Add something to what side B grants you.(8)

<u>3. Comments to trade-request ( fixed or normal ):</u>

Side B offer side A a trade agreement. Responses are:

"We gladly accept. A fair deal". commence with trade.
"Maybe if you could just add this..." Add something to what side B offers you.(8)
"Can't give you this, but phrhaps..." change what you give to side B.(8)
"We have a new agreement in mind..." change both the "give" and "request" section.(8)
"We are wounded that you can even think about cheating us like this!" -*- cancel trade offer.(7)

<u>4. comment on gift</u>

Side B offers side A a gift:

"We gladly accept your kind gift". Accept gift.
"Sadly, we must refuse". Cancel gift.

Re-comments

For all re-comments, look at the number next to comment ( in the previous section ). For comments on the re-comments ( or re-re-comments ), see the humbers (1) next to the re-comment. Is sort of a loop till you either cancel or accept.

<u>5. Comments on refual of demand:</u>

Side B comments on side A un-willingess to accept his demand:

"You dare refuse us?! This would not be forgotton". -*- cancel demand.
"For this insult, we cancel our relations with your people". -**- Cancel all treaties, end talk.
"What?! You shell die for this insult!" -**- Declare war on side A.

<u>6. Comments on new-offer after demand:</u>

Side B comments after Side A offers a different thing from his demand:

"We are not here to trade with you! But it's acceptable". Accpet new offer.
"You will also grant us... and they we will spare you". Add more things to "request". (1)
"We will say this no more! Give us what we want!" Return trade status to original one. Re-demand. (1)
"Very well then. We will watch you." Cancel demand. More hostile.
"You think we wish to bargain with you? You will die!" -**- Declare war on side A.

<u>7. Comments on refusal of trade/request offer:</u>

Side B comment on Side A refusal to accept his offer:

"Very well then. Consider our offer invalid." cancel offer.
"What if we also add this..." Add something to the "give" section (2).
"We ask you kindly, and you refused us. This will not be forgotton." -*- cancel offer.

<u>8. Comments on change of trade/request offer:</u>

Side B comment on side A new offer ( changed request or gift ) of his offer:

"Very well then. Consider our offer invalid." cancel offer.
"Maybe you can also include this" Add something to the "request" section. (3)
"We can't give you this, but what about..." change "give" section. (3)
"You refused our fair offer? This will not be forgtotton." -*- cancel offer.

Is the negotion section clear now?

Regret **

Some comments may cause "regret", and I marked those with **. When the AI or you choose a comment with "regret" ( for example: Side A demand something from side B. Side B refused, and side A declares war ) the other side has an option to repent his decision. If, like in the example, the other side declares war on you, you have the option to accept the demand or offer the other side a peace offering. If you won't, the other side will just go along and declare war or cancel all connection with you, whatever the case is.

7. Treaties

This section list all the treaties you may sign with the other side. Most of them were allready in my second post, but I revised some and added a few. Trade treaty is not autmatcily signed with you have "peace" pact or better, and was removed.

1. Science treaty: an agreement which gives both sides +% to science output.

2. Intelligence treaty: You may not spy on other side, and you both share all reports on other hostile nations. You can even pool toghter your intel to sabatoge and espionage toghter.

3. Survlience treaty: shared maps and all known enemy units location.

4. Military alliance: allows united attacks.

5. Research treaty: Side A pays side B money, and side B in exchange gives all new technology he researched.

6. Mutual research: Both sides share all new technology they accquire by research.

7. Construction contract: Side A pays money to Side B, by ordering construction of several units. Side B select a city, which then invest all money to speed-up production of the required units. Side B get 10% of the construction cost. ( Used when you have a good construction ratio in one city, mainly because of a good wonder ).

8. Design contract: Side A pays Side B to design and build a prototype of a unit. Side B gets 10% of the cost.
This tready can only work if:
A. You have a unit workshop like SMAC.
B. A certain idea in the unit section will be included: that the stats of the prototype units will be better the higher your tech and the more money and time you invest in the development.
Side B can't, however, construct the design himself unless side A sells it to him.

9. United project: Side A and side B both design a prototype toghter ( similar to treaty #8 ). Both pool resources and the end product is available to both of them.

10. United wonder: Both sides may construct a wonder. This treaty may only work for wonders that effect society at general ( and not only give tech [ darwin voyage ], a benefit to a certain city or a certain continent ). They pick a city where it's built: but the location doesn't matter since it effect all cities. All cities gives 10% of both nations of there labor to build the wonder. The two nations split the maintance cost.
IMPORTANT! Also applies to star ships.

11. Hired workers: Side A pays side B to gain worker support. Side A select a city, and side B also. Half of all the labor force in side B cities is passed, for the duration of the treaty, to side A city.

12. Right of passage: side A may pass and refuel at side B bases.

13. Port contract: Side A pays side B to build a harbor/dock at his land for refuel.

14. Trade passage: Side B allows side A to build trade routes over his land, but he gets 10% of all trade income.

15. Forbiden weapons: Both nations can agree not to use a weapon that is not classified as a nuke or illegal. For example, both nation can agree not to use Catapults, IBCM or tanks. You may also request that only a certain side won't use this tech. ( Example: in startrek, the federation agreed not to used clocking technology of any sort ).

16. Monopoly: Side A ask side B to only buy a certain item from him ( used in a commodity system, see economics/trade ).

17. Funded trade: Side A pays side B to build some caravans and establish a trade route with another civ that normally he can't because he has no contact of way to her. Side B gets 10% of the income.

18. Limited arms: Both sides agree not to use an illegal weapons.

19. Free air: Both sides agree that be "pollution-safe" after X turns. Meaning, the popultion level must not raise above Y level, or the civ is fined ( forcing the civ to hurry up and build dams, solar panels and recycling systems ).

20. No-nuke: both sides shell not build any nuclear missiles, subs or power plants.

8. Pact level

This section include the various levels of diplomatic connection.

<u>Unity</u>

Unity is a high form of allaince, which include shared victory conditions. All trade you have with your union member gets +25% bonus. Up 20%, round up, of all players may union one another to win the game toghter. If you sign unity with someone, you automatcily sign unity with all the other union members he has. ( If he allready has a unity member, you get a pop-up saying: "This also means you need to ally with "X". Is this acceptable? Yes/No ). If one member of the union wins, all the others also win. You can't declare war on a union member: you may only revert to alliance ( takes one turn ).
Those treaties are automatcily signed with in unity: 1, 2, 3, 4, 12
You may sign the following treaties: All, expect 16.

<u>Alliance</u>

Alliance is a better form of peace. You may not declare war on your ally: you first must break the treaty. Only in the next turn can you declare war. All trade with an ally gets +10% bonus.
Those treaties are automaticly signed in alliance: 4, 12
You may sign the following treaties: All

<u>Peace</u>

Peace is a firmed agreement between the two states. Once peace is declared, borders between the two nations are automaticly fixed, and may not be moved. You may also trade with a peaceful nation.
You may sign the following treaties: 1, 5, 7, 14 - 20

<u>Cease-fire</u>

You are in a state of no-war with the nation, but the borders may still be moved by buildings outposts and bases ( like in SMAC ). You may not trade with this nation. Entering into the border of an enemy with cease-fire is an atrocity.
You may sign the following treaties: 15, 18, 20

<u>Strike</u>

A form of limited war. You may only attack units and bombard cities: you may not take over any city. Strike gives none of the bonuses and minuses of war, but be warned: the senate and the people don't approve of long strikes. So either you move into war or end it quickly. ( consider Desert-war against Iraq ). Borders do not apply in strike.

<u>War</u>

War is a long bloody conflit. For the duration of the war, you gain +2 Mil / -2 Centr ( see Social engineering for applies. In general temrs, you get +20% to consturct military units, but -20% to build buildings and other civilan things ). For three turns after the war ends, you get -2 Center, but no bonus.
You may take over, pillage and raise cities.

<u>Genocide</u>

Genocide is a racist war, that it's mere creaton is a major atrocity. You get +2 Mil, +2 Mor, no minus ( +20% to military productio, +20% to military attacks ) for the duration of the war. You may not take over cities: every city you attack is decematited ( competltly destroied ). This is a HUGE atrocity. However, for X turns after you destroy a city, you gain an extra +1 Mor/+1 Hap to all tropps ( this is not cumaltive. Destroying 3 cities won't give you +6 morale ). The duration of the bonus is decided by the size of the city.

9. Concuil

This section describe the three types of concuil ( alliances, pacts ) I have.
Concuils, unlike SMAC, don't automaticly include all the members in the world. They are not wonder-based anymore ( no UN wonder ).
You may establish a concuil of your own. Every player can lead no more then one concuil. The maximum number of concuils world-wide is no more then half the number of players, rounded down.
If you want to establish a concuil, you must apply for it. There is a certain, minimal registrion cost. The other players are informed, and all of those that still don't have a concuil may bid on it. The highest bidder MUST buy the leadership. Leadership can not be sold or transfered, only given up. If the leader does anything to make him expeled or declare war on him, the leadership passes to the other oldest member. You may create any of the following alliances ( all have the same costs ):

<u>Diplomatic allaince</u>

Ala UN. This alliance has little power, so most AI are likely to join to it. Diplomatic relations between all members are improving at a great speed. There is no admintense rules: anyone may enter. However, any member doing a major atrocity is expled, and anyone who does a huge atrocity gets an immdiate mutal strike ( everyone declare strike on him ).
In a diplomatic alliance, you may:

* Ask a certain member, or all members, to sign one of the following treaties ( see section 7 ):
1, 10, 14-15, 18-20
* Ask the UN to complain on a certain player ( all members form a complain against him ).
* Ask fo strike against a player ( can be outside the concuil. Must commit a major or huge atrocity ).
* Ask for sanctions against a player ( must do an atrocity )
* Ask to expel a player ( must do a moderate atrocity )

<u>Trade alliance</u>

All members must sign peace with one another. None may declare war on a member: if he does, then he is expeled automaticly. However, this alliance take no interst in military and you can't declare war by it.
You gain +10% to trade with members. You may do the following things:

* Ask any certain member to sign the following treaties ( see section 7 ):
1, 5, 6-8, 9-11, 13-14, 16
* Ask all the members of the alliance to sign one the following treaties toghter ( see section 7 ):
6, 9-10
* Ask to cast Embargo on a certain member or outside player.

<u>Military alliance</u>

All members must sign alliance with one another. Anyone who de-grade his alliance with even one member is cast out of the alliance. In military alliance you may:

* Ask any certain memebrs to sign the following treaties ( see section 7 ):
2=3, 7-8
* Ask all members to sign treaty 9 toghter ( see section 7 ).
* Declare war/strike against any outside player.

10. Long memory

You noticed that some comments are marked with a "*". This means it will be a "long memory". A long memory are stored up to 100 turns backward. They might even suprise you when they pop up.
For example, when you ask the AI for something, he might replay you in this manner:
"X years ago, you insulted us by not giving us the X we requested. Why should we heed you now?"

The AI will remember every time you threatened on him, or when you almost declared war and he used the "repent" option. They might even look ( at the slider bar ) like they love you now. However, your past history will remain like a seed of hate. Spy on them, and they will remember it for many turns, even after you forgot it.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Harel (edited August 13, 1999).]</font>
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Old August 14, 1999, 21:03   #62
Maniac
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Harel :

Like your diplomacy ideas. Just have a question about War.

At war you get +2 Mil, -2 Civil Production
But in all my games it's not unusual, in fact it's the most regular scenarion, that I'm at war with some civs at the other side of the globe.

I just leave them alone, the peaceful builder type I am. I only think about going into action if there continual suicide invasions bore me and I want to stop them.

So what makes the game think I am in an all out war? I don't want to get a -2 Production cause some unfriendly 'neighbour' that can hardly reach me wants to kill me.

Everyone :

I think that AI civs also need a reputation.
Cause it's unlogic that the senate always asks for peace even if that same civ attacked you several times.
So I think the worse a civ's reputation, the more likely it should be that the senate allows military action.
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Old August 15, 1999, 16:12   #63
Mo
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I would suggest that the war effects(+2mil/-2civil production) should only come into affect depending on your military status not on your diplomatic status.
There should be three levels of military status:
peacetime: very little support but - combat modifiers
Regular: no effects and regular support
Wartime: more support required, + combat modifiers, +mil/-2civil production
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Old August 16, 1999, 07:00   #64
mindlace
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I really want Unity with all players to be a victory condition.

Think of it as 'conquest through diplomacy' that's more realistic/harder than being elected supreme leader.

Other than that, I really like the diplomacy outline.

~mindlace
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Old August 16, 1999, 10:09   #65
Stefu
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How about:

You can take "camera" shots of, for instance, a unit cluster of some other power near your potential ally, and tell him that he can't possibly deal against this large enemy, and offer an alliance so you could use your troops to defend him. Useful in multiplayer.
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Old August 17, 1999, 10:16   #66
Maniac
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Harel, if you are a Unity with other civs, you should have significantly increased trade and also the wonders effects count for both the civs. So your wonders also count for him and his wonders for you.
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Old August 19, 1999, 18:01   #67
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In MP, it would be nice to have 3 way or more conferencing. To negotiate a treaty between ALL the parties instead of doing it one by one. Sort of like a "NATO" screen, where all common allies/or anyone that has been invited can conduct diplomacy and policy (Like a declaration of war from all the members on someone else).
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Old August 21, 1999, 10:23   #68
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Harel, your ideas are really great but I have some disagreements in unity:

1)Automatically you have the same diplomatic relations with every civilisation out of the union. If a new member has to join he has to change the diplomacy with the non-union members. Then the non-union member can either accept or re-examine its relations with the union.
For example X is in war with Y and union A is in peace with Y. If X wants to join A he must promise that he will make peace with Y.
(but he can also demand that union will make war with Y).
A has the right to ask Y if accepts peace. If does not accept then union may accept the new member X or not (because is afraid of diplomatic disaster with Y). If X joins union then Y must accept peace or he has war will the union.

2)Automatically all advances and wonders are shared. Furthermore there is no individual research. The science produced by every member is added to the science producted by union. As result it is not individual nations who discover technology, but union.

3)Because of 2, union has opinion in your nation. You must not build infracture when union is in war and builds weapons. You also cannot have 0% science and expect all the technology from union. Such actions can lead to penalty paid as compensation to union or even exclusion of union.

4)Only republic and democracy are possible in union. Also union requires administration expences, increasing faster than linearly as the number of members increases and slower than linearly as the average of single nation population increases.
The number of members is calculated by the formula:

A=(total population of union)^2
B[N]=(population of Nth member of union)^2
B=sum of all B[N].

number of nations = sqrt(A/B)
(sorry for the complicated maths).

By this way union at the start is not beneficial and also it is not favourable to accept in the union nations well behind you.

5)Negotiations with union: Simply you meet the representative of the union. when your union negotiates with somebody you simply vote for every possible decision (the other side does not know how everybody votes).

6)NATO or SMAC type councils to decide the actions of the union (diplomacy with others, science rate, maximum production of units\wonders\improvements, type of city improvents etc.)

Consequences: Nobody will be able to survive alone but union has also many disadvantages. You must make the right balance.

Requirements: Large number of civilisations and powerful artificial intelligence (not easy but worths. At least Sid has proven that he is capable for that).
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Old August 21, 1999, 13:30   #69
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I think that all modern governments should be able to form a unity not just republic and democracy, but the members in a unity should have the same type of government.
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Old August 21, 1999, 16:43   #70
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What about these two suggestions

#1 When a human player loses you can let, if you chose, the computer players continue to see who wins out.

#2 Diplomatic option. When a nation surrenders you can make it a "permanent vassal" which means.
-> they are automatically at war with someone you declare war on.
-> The computer player retains control over his nation but you have final say in all of his orders.
-> There is a set rate of gold, resources they have to supply to you each turn.
-> You get all of thier technology.
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Old August 22, 1999, 06:43   #71
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I am a newbie here, so I apologize if this has been touched on before.

By definition, the rules of diplomacy become, to some extent, the rules of the game. By that I mean that if a treaty is signed, you have to act accordingly, if you want to avoid going to war.

What I would like to see in the game is a more flexible use of treaties and conventions. In real life, treaties are only signed when there is a need for them. That is, a situation must exist that warrants a treaty or a convention. As an example, take the Geneva Convention. It was only signed, because a need existed for rules of war, to prevent atrocities. The way I would like to see this in the game is this:

Say that player A is moving his units around in player Bīs territory. Player B grows tired of this and asks player A not to. Next a war can result, leading to a treaty banning player A from entering player Bīs territory and vice versa. Or a treaty can be signed right away. If this problem exists on a global scale, a convention can be signed, banning all players from entering another players territory.

Where do I want to go with this??

I would like to see a game with as few rules as possible from the start, and then gradually amending rules as they are needed/negociated between players. This would make a much more flexible gameplay, with no two games beeing played under the same rules. In one game it could be quite acceptable to block other players harbours, whereas in another game this would be very rude behaviour.

Am I making sense here??

Asmodean
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Old August 25, 1999, 13:59   #72
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Finally addressing jof's concerns on Aug. 7. I still prefer missions, but if Firaxis sticks with the spy unit I'd like these ideas included (many of them will work with both). This is a modified old post:

Establish embassy: In this case the spy is setting up a network to keep tabs on the enemy. However, this should really eliminate the spy unit(it's in the enemy empire somewhere) and could eventually be ferreted out by the other civ. Only diplomats should be able to create permanent embassies.

Examine city: I think all units should be able to examine city; all non-combat units plus combat units when civs are at peace or allied. Would end the move of the unit w/o destroying it(including dips). Perhaps the spy could keep some movement (this wouldn't be necessary if the SMAC model of looking into cities is kept).

Purchase unit/city: Assuming bribing cities is allowed at all, IMHO cities should be more expensive(plus a nationalism tech could make them even more expensive or unbribeable) but I will go on record as saying units should be cheaper to bribe, mainly because early on bribing units can bankrupt your empire. The nationalism tech could make units more expensive as well, plus later govts & units are also very expensive to bribe. Plus a 2nd option to pay less to get an enemy to disband rather than join you. Only diplomats and generals can bribe/disband enemy units; the dips because of their diplomatic skills and generals because of their ability to inspire troops(even enemy troops). Allow bribing of units in stacks. Military units can "demand surrender" of a enemy city, with success determined by criteria set below.

Nuke/sabotage/poison: These missions should be determined before the spy leaves your territory. Spies don't carry all this stuff with them on missions. Dips should not have these abilities.

see 2/move 3/ign. ZOC's/no support cost/ no unhappiness/low cost: Realistically, I don't have a problem with these. The spy unit is only a small group of several well-trained individuals (no support, unhappiness, cost). Spies are supposed to know what is going on around them (see2). Spies can drive jeeps or ride horses (move 3). If they can't avoid the military, they aren't very good spies (ign. ZOC). Balancewise, it's a problem, especially when someone decides that 5 spies have a better chance of nuking a city w/SDI than 1 nuke.

Additional abilities (yep, additional):
Spies should have "natural" concealment, similar to a submarines abilities. Only can be seen by other spies.
After paratroopers are available, all spies can paradrop.
Spies can ride enemy RR's (I assume that in civ3 combat units will not be able to do so).
Spies can ride for free on any ship or have a very low cost if unit size is incorporated.
Spies can assassinate other spies, leader units, or AI leaders(throws empire into revolt unless democratic, but earns you a "black mark" vs. that civs people and rulers). Assassinations must also be declared before leaving your territory.
Diplomats do not have these abilities, except riding the RR's of your enemies.

Balance: Missions that are now always successful would not be. City revolts(if kept) would be modified as below.

Spy may either bribe city, military, or both. If citizens only, then they must "fight" the military for control, if military, they must "subdue" city; both would be best to insure success (expensive). Mods would be:

1)# & type of enemy military units in city & nearby,
2)The current Happiness of the citizens(EACH citizens happiness is a factor, not just content/in revolt. See SOCIAL ENGINEERING for details),
3)Happiness of your society vs. their society. Happy citizens will not wish to join a nation of misery,
4)Any atrocities your empire has inflicted on the enemy, or diplomatic gifts,
5)The city's EFFICIENCY.

For "demand surrender" include the above but 1) would be replaced with-your army size vs. their army size. Even so, the result could be that the city remains loyal, switches sides, or declares neutrality. Most importantly, for ALL missions, when a spy unit enters an enemy civs borders, EACH SQUARE IT MOVES it can be caught. Missions such as sabotage, nuke, would run a higher risk of detection. Whenever a spy enters your territory you will receive a message like "*Roman* spy has been seen near *city name*". Paradrops will be seen landing, but when it moves the spy will become hidden. And the current chances of success of most missions will be lower.

Another idea for nationalism tech:
When attempting bribe cities/units w/nat'lism have a 50% of refusing to talk to you. Other wise you may try to bribe but at a higher cost.
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Old August 25, 1999, 14:07   #73
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This is darkgrendel's list of ideas. I don't think he ever posted them:

Infiltrator (2/3 moves, cost 4)
Abilities-
Investigate City
Buy City
Buy Unit
Steal Tech (medium chance survival)
Steal Money(medium chance survival)
Steal Goods(food, shields, etc; medium chance survival)


Demolitions Expert (1/2 moves, cost 5)
Abilities-
Investigate City
Nuke City (little to no chance survival)
Damage Unit
Industrial Sabotage

Ambassador (2/3 moves, cost 3)
Investigate City
Establish Embassy
Poison City (medium chance survival)
Buy Tech (good chance survival)

Propagandist (2/3 moves, cost 4)
Investigate City
Cause Revolt (little to medium chance survival, city has disorder)
Buy City
Buy Unit
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Old August 30, 1999, 15:23   #74
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One more spy mission: update enemy nuclear deployment. Allows you to see all his nukes, even if they aren't in a city.
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Old September 2, 1999, 17:44   #75
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first of all

WHY CAN SPYS
1.BUY CITYS
2.AND UNITS
3.AND BLOW UP A 5KM WALL WITHOUT ANYONE KNOWING IT
4.NUKE WITHOUT PAYING FOR THE NUKE(should cost some where near builting one)
5.Basicly BOMB ANYTHING.......EVEN A 9999999ton builting or parks(Blowing up land?)

I like the SPY mission idea. But I think
I should be able the pick my target for each mission.(maybe path taken by my spys?)
Under this system, a spy mission would look like.

recon around(X,Y) for ??? Turns
Bomb ???? in ???? city
Seek and Destory improvements around(X,Y) for
??? Turns
............etc
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Old September 24, 1999, 17:29   #76
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Third edition - almost finished!

Revision: 3

<u>Diplomacy summary 2.1</u> - By Harel Eilam ( harel@isdn.net.il )

<u>Index:</u>

1. Pacts
2. Treaties
3. Special operations
4. Trade
5. Diplomatic option/screen
6. Negotations
7. Diplomatic realtions
8. Atrocities and complaints
9. Long memory


1. Pacts

A pact is an agreement between three of more players ( AI or humans ) to work toghter under the same ground. The most common pact is a militarial where several players can unite their own forces, but other pacts also exist, a trade, science and diplomatacy pacts.

1.1.1 Diplomatic pacts are the most basical ones. They serve is a formal meeting house for many civs, but rarely hold any real power. It acts much like the UN, or SMAC concuil. AI have a very good chance of joining a diplomatic pact, more then any other form of pacts.
1.1.1.2 A player may address a diplomatic pact with the following things:
1.1.1.2.1. Expel a member ( only if he commited to a serious atrocity ). Maybe this can be only temporerly?
1.1.1.2.2 Suggest a new member.
1.1.1.2.3 Suggest a strike ( form of limited war ) or a player which commitied a serious atrocitiy.
1.1.1.2.4 Suggest a full scale war, but only on a player which commited genocide.
1.1.1.2.5 Signing a global trade treaty ( bonus to trade ).
1.1.1.2.6 Electing a pact leader ( like SMAC concuil leader ).
1.1.1.2.7 Finanacing a global project ( like in SMAC ).
1.1.1.2.8 Ask for embargo on a player ( commited minor/major atrocities ).
1.1.1.2.9 Call for an open debate ( chat, when caller set the topic and talks first ).
1.1.1.2.10 Sign any of the following treaties: 2.4.1, 2.4.2., 2.4.3, 2.4.4.
1.1.1.2.11 A united wonder project for all the members of the pact ( see 2.3.2 ).
1.1.1.2.12 Ask to strip a player of Veto power ( see 1.7 ).
1.1.1.2.13 Demand a player ( in the pact or outside ) to make peace. This could be further induce with an aultimetum: sign peace in X turns, or we declare war on you.
1.1.1.2.14 Ask pact to re-evalute borders: diplomatic pacts can advise on borders, and delcare that one nation must pass X land to the other side. If not, the pact may declare war on the refuser.
1.1.1.2.15 Demand cease-fire: the pact can demand a cease-fire between nations, and send force to inforce it.
1.1.1.2.16 Establish de-militarilized zone: the pact eract a zone where only her military forces may enter. Any other force may be destroyed.
1.1.1.2.17 Give autonomy: the pact may demand a nation which conquered an entire civ to give here autonomy, in a vassal form ( see 7.1 ).
1.1.1.3 The diplomatic pact can either be created in reserved to specific members, like in the other pacts, or can be like the UN/SMAC concuil: it's automaticly created and all civ's around the world are joined. If it's a universal pact, then 1.1.1.2.1 and 1.1.1.2.2 can't exist.
1.1.1.4 Should the diplomatic pact be resereved to only when you have the UN wonder?
1.1.1.5 Just joining the pact should gives you a small bonus ( if, unlike 1.1.1.3, it's a pact with admition and membership ). Maybe +% to diplomatic realtions?
1.1.1.6 Should it be reserved to only democracies? If true, what happens when a member changes it's goverement type AFTER he joined? Is he automaticly expeled, or it there a vote?
1.1.1.7 The UN shouldn't be a wonder, or it should be modified, in the following options:
1.1.1.7.1 Several players reach a certain tech level.
1.1.1.7.2 A certain player discovers "modern politics".
1.1.1.7.3 it's available right from the start.
1.1.1.7.4 No certain nation builds the UN wonder, but several nations toghther.
1.1.1.7.5 The UN wonder can't be destroyed, and if it can't, it should be able to be rebuilt.

1.1.2 Military pact is the most used pact there is. It's a union of players for a military might and united protection.
1.1.2.2 Automaticly, all members of a military pact can't attack any other member without breaking the pact. Similar to NATO.
1.1.2.3 A player may address the concuil with the following things:
1.1.2.3.1 Suggest a new member.
1.1.2.3.2 Expel a member ( requires only a vote ).
1.1.2.3.3 Declare a war ( on a player which is not in thr pact ).
1.1.2.3.4 Sign any of the following treaties with any specific member: 2.2.1, 2.2.2, 2.2.2, 2.2.3, 2.2.4, 2.2.5, 2.2.6
1.1.2.3.5 All the treaties from 1.1.2.3.4 may be signed globely: for example, 2.2.2 means all member share intel, 2.2.3 means all members share some units, etc. 2.2.4 can't be signed globely, but 2.2.5 means all members will pool thier resources to create a single, unified project.
1.1.2.3.6 Designate target: when a war was declared by the pact on a single enemy, you may suggest a specific target for the pact to concentrate.
1.1.2.3.7 Summon war meeting: similar to 1.1.1.2.9.
1.1.2.4 All members in the pact must be allied to one another. If not, joining the pact automaticly allies you with all the others.

1.1.3 Emergency pact: emergency pact is similar to a militarial pact. It's created to the sole purpose of destroying a specific enemy. The pact automaticly disolve when the enemy is destroyed, or peace is signed.
1.1.3.2 the only possible actions you can make in an emergency pact is to call for new members, direct the assault ( see 1.1.2.3.6 ), and call for a war meeting ( see 1.1.2.3.7 ). The treaties can be signed by the normal diplomacy channel, but not via the pact screen.

1.1.4 Science pact: Science pacts are a group of nations that share their intellectul knowladge between themselfs.
1.1.4.1 Players may suggest the following things to the concuil:
1.1.4.1.1 Add new member.
1.1.4.1.2 Expel a member ( requires only a vote ).
1.1.4.1.2 Signing any of the following treaties: 2.1.2, 2.1.3, 2.1.4, when 2.1.3 and 2.1.4 can be suggested as a global effort.
1.1.4.2 All members automaticly sign 2.1.1 between themselfs.
1.1.4.3 Beyond the bonus that is recieved via 1.1.4.2, all members get a +1% per member to thier total research points ( for example, 10 members, not including yourselfs, will give you +10% to your RP output ).
1.1.4.4 All members in the pact must be in peace with one another.

1.1.5 Trade pact: or an economic pact, a union of nation for better profit margin.
1.1.5.1 You may ask the concuil to do the following things:
1.1.5.1.1 Add new member.
1.1.5.1.2 Expel a member ( requires only a vote ).
1.1.5.1.3 Suggest any of the following treaties: 2.3.1, 2.3.3, 2.3.4, 2.3.5, 2.3.7, 2.3.8 to a certain player or offer to the highest bidder.
1.1.5.1.4 You may offer to share a global wonder ( see 2.3.2 ) to all the members, or a specific one.
1.1.5.1.5 Demand a monopoly ( see 2.3.6 ) from all the members, or a specific one.
1.1.5.1.6 Ask for sancations on a specific player ( outside the pact ).
1.1.5.2 All players must be at peace with one another. All players gets +1% to trade profit for every member in the pact ( not including the player ).

1.2. All pacts ( with the possible exception of the diplomatic pact, see 1.1.1.3 ), are created by at least two members. The creator, which is considered the leader of the pact, send a request to the second party. Under agreement, a pact is formed. The pact may then be expanded with further members.
1.2.1 Should the total number of pacts be limited?
1.2.2 A player must not be a leader of any more then one pact, but he may a member in how many he wishes. A possible solution to 1.2.1?
1.2.3 Should the establishment cost a certain fee?

1.3 Should membership in a pact cost a certain fixed fee?

1.4 Is leaving the pact cause some damage? Pay the other members some fixed fee?

1.5 Is expeling members should be temporily or permenant? In case of diplomatic pacts ( which can only expel a member if he commited atrocities ), should he be able to join after X turns?

1.6 You should be able to have "secret" pacts. All considering, it can only be seriously used in military combat, as trade and science pacts automaticly recieve too much attention. A "secret" pact won't be informed, or shows in your civ info. But it should cost considerbly more then "normal" pacts.

1.7 Veto power is in the hands of the pact founder, and maybe the biggest nations in the pact, around 10-20% of them. Veto can be cast to over-rule any decisions, but it does cause some hostality toward you from the oppisition. Veto can be re-overruled with a 66% vote in the oppisition. Vote power can be also stripped with a 66% vote.

2. Treaties

2.1 Science treaties: Can be signed via the Science pact ( see 1.1.4 ), or via the diplomacy screen when the diplomatic realtions are atleast peaceful.
2.1.1. Science treaty: an agreement which gives both sides +% to science output.
2.1.2 Research treaty: Side A pays side B money, and side B in exchange gives all new technology he researched.
2.1.3 Tech treaty: Both sides pool their RP togther and research a specific tech. After it's discovered, the pooling ends.
2.1.4 Mutual research: Both sides share all new technology they accquire by research.

2.2 Militarial treaties : Can be signed via the Military pact ( see 1.1.2 ), or via the diplomacy screen only when you are allied with the other side.
2.2.1 Intelligence treaty: You may not spy on other side, and you both share all reports on other hostile nations. You can even pool toghter your intel to sabatoge and espionage toghter.
2.2.2 Survlience treaty: shared maps and all known enemy units location.
2.2.3 Defence treaty: both sides position some military units in each other cities for protection.
2.2.4. Design contract: Side A pays Side B to design and build a prototype of a unit. Side B gets 10% of the cost. This tready can only work if:
2.2.4.1.1 You have a unit workshop like SMAC.
2.2.4.1.2 A certain idea in the unit section will be included: that the stats of the prototype units will be better the higher your tech and the more money and time you invest in the development.
2.2.4.2 Side B can't, however, construct the design himself unless side A sells it to him.
2.2.5. United project: Side A and side B both design a prototype toghter ( similar to treaty 2.2.4 ). Both pool resources and the end product is available to both of them.
2.2.6 Lend units: Side A pays side B, and recieve several military units for it's use, for a limited time. Those units can't however, attack the original owner cities or land.
2.2.7. Right of passage: side A may pass and refuel at side B bases.

2.3. Trade treaties : Can be signed via the Trade pact ( see 1.1.5 ), or via the diplomacy screen when the diplomatic realtions are atleast peaceful.
2.3.1 Construction contract: Side A pays money to Side B, by ordering construction of several units. Side B select a city, which then invest all money to speed-up production of the required units. Side B get 10% of the construction cost. ( Used when you have a good construction ratio in one city, mainly because of a good wonder ).
2.3.2 United wonder: Both sides may construct a wonder. This treaty may only work for wonders that effect society at general ( and not only give tech [ darwin voyage ], a benefit to a certain city or a certain continent ). They pick a city where it's built: but the location doesn't matter since it effect all cities. All cities gives 10% of both nations of there labor to build the wonder. The two nations split the maintance cost. IMPORTANT! Also applies to star ships.
2.3.3 Hired workers: Side A pays side B to gain worker support. Side A select a city, and side B also. Half of all the labor force in side B cities is passed, for the duration of the treaty, to side A city.
2.3.4 Port contract: Side A pays side B to build a harbor/dock at his land for refuel.
2.3.5. Trade passage: Side B allows side A to build trade routes over his land, but he gets 10% of all trade income.
2.3.6 Monopoly: Side A ask side B to only buy a certain item from him ( used in a commodity system, see economics/trade ).
2.3.7. Funded trade: Side A pays side B to build some caravans and establish a trade route with another civ that normally he can't because he has no contact of way to her. Side B gets 10% of the income.
2.3.8 Development area: Side A pays side B for the automated "rent" of some of this settlers. Those settlers then go, and build the job they are hired for: "build a road from here to there", "make farms", etc. Very useful when needs to clean a lot of pollution after a massive nuclear strike.
2.3.8.2 If the public works idea from CtP is added, then side A can "buy" work points from side B for a sum, and use it himself.

2.4. Agreements: Can be signed via the Diplomacy pact ( see 1.1.1 ), or via the diplomacy screen when the diplomatic realtions are atleast not of war.

2.4.1 Forbiden weapons: Both nations can agree not to use a weapon that is not classified as a nuke or illegal. For example, both nation can agree not to use Catapults, IBCM or tanks. You may also request that only a certain side won't use this tech. ( Example: in startrek, the federation agreed not to used clocking technology of any sort ).
2.4.2 Limited arms: Both sides agree not to use an illegal weapons.
2.4.3 Free air: Both sides agree that be "pollution-safe" after X turns. Meaning, the popultion level must not raise above Y level, or the civ is fined ( forcing the civ to hurry up and build dams, solar panels and recycling systems ).
2.4.4 No-nuke: both sides shell not build any nuclear missiles, subs or power plants.

3. Special operations

Special operations are the product of special units. In civ III, those were the Diplomat and the spy. However, there is a dispute on which operations should go to each unit, and some suggested even new types of special units. Therefor, I divided this section into two: one listing all the possible operations, and the other all the units and suggested things they can do ( with all the disputes ).

3.1.1 Peaceful operations: those operations can be done at any time, with little danger of discovery, or damage if caught.
3.1.1.1 Investigate city: allows the player to see, for one turn, the management of the enemy city. The entire city radii, what building it has, and the popultion distribution.
3.1.1.2 Establish ambsassy ( serves to give you key statistics on enemy civ every turn ).
3.1.1.3 Military status: see the positions of all the units which belog to the city, even those that are outside in the field right now.

3.1.2 Hidden opeations: those operations can't be done against an ally which you signed an espionage treaty with. It's moderatly dangerous, and may create hostility toward you if you are caught.
3.1.2.1 Sway away unit: pay X amount, and the targeted enemy unit become yours. The expreince level of the operator increase the chance, by high unit morale, exp and proper SE options reduce the chance. Only for Infantry, or other cheap units. If it's a costly unit, its consideres a "war-time operations" ( see 3.1.3 ). Also, it's only applies for manned unit. For missiles, look at 3.1.1.5.
3.1.2.2 Steal technolgy.
3.1.2.3 Steal blue-print: get the design of a certain unit ( if the project idea is used, see units thread ).
3.1.2.4 Still money: the cost of operations must always be higher then what is gained by the process. The advantge is that it drains the treasure of the enemy.
3.1.2.5 Still goods: for a certain turn, a certain amount of shields from the enemy city is moved to your nearest city ( or spy home city ), and boost production.
3.1.2.6 Damage unit: reduce unit health by 50%, and cripple it ( can't move for X turns ). The morale level of the unit is also reduced to the lowest level ( not exp, however ). The operator unit is destroyed.
3.1.2.7 Cause revolt: has a low chance the city will revolt. Still cheaper and with higher chance then a succesful bribing.
3.1.2.8 Nuclear deployment: see the positions of all the nukes in the civ, or atleast parts.
3.1.2.9 Rescue operator: if an operator has failed in it's mission, it caught and may be rescued for X turns.
3.1.2.10 Donate terrorists: create an AI raider spy which will work against the city itself. Reduce the danger from yourself, but it cost a lot and the terrorist is less capale then your own operator.
3.1.2.11 Donate criminal ( see economics thread for pirates ): you may donate money which goes directly to the pirates AI, which can then harrass the enemy even more.
3.1.2.12 Raid trade route: steal a low amount of money off any trade routes, or caravans, moving near you.

3.1.3 War-time operations: those operations can only be done against an enemy with you are atleast in cease-fire with. If caught, it will move you directly to war.

3.1.3.1 Bribe a city: pay X amount, and the city is yours. However, you can't bribe a city which has military units in it, and the more resilent the enemy civ is ( set by her social engineering options ), the bigger the change the operation will fail alltogher.
3.1.3.2 Nuke a city: acts just like a nuke hit the city, however with less pollution ( more advance bomb, if it's that small ), and bypassing SDI defence. However, a key observation was made: the cost of nuking a city must be higher then the cost of a normal nuke ( reasonable, isn't it? ).
3.1.3.3 Pollute/Poison water: reduce city popultion.
3.1.3.4 Destroy city building.
3.1.3.5 Steal nuke/missile: allows you to steal any un-maned that are sitting in a city ( like missiles and nukes ).
3.1.3.6 Kill nation leader ( only in capitol city ). Throws the entire nation to revolt, for a turn or two.
3.1.3.7 Destory trade route: destroy a trade route of the enemy, and kill all caravans on it.

3.2.1 Some claim that since operators are a single man, or a very small group, it should require no support and cause no unhappiness to the popultion when outside city radii. Ofcourse, this could make spies too powerful.
3.2.2 Spies ( or other, fiting operators ) should have one or more of the following abilities/powers:
3.2.2.1 A good line of sight ( 2 ).
3.2.2.2 Quick movement.
3.2.2.3 Hiding: can only be found by scouts and other spies.
3.2.2.4 Use enemy railraods ( considering that the bug from civ II would dis-allow forgien countries to use your own railroads in normal conditions ).
3.2.2.5 Can board enemy transporters un-noticed ( unless there is a scout on the ship ), and requires 0 cargo capacity on your own carriers ( but only for a single operators ).
3.3 It was suggested that you will give the operators instructions, and not the direct assignment. Meaning? For example, you can tell your spy to: "recon around ( X,Y ) for X turns, then proceed to city X where you will bomb Y, and continue to bomb the following X city improvements, until you return to your home city of X."
3.4 If an operator has fail in it's mission inside a city, it's caught, and unless rescued ( see 3.1.17 ), there is a good chance there will be a security breach ( gives away maps with combat units positions, techs, etc. )
3.5 Should the entire intel process by automated? You spend money on intel, and all operations are done automaticly? If so, they are several options:
3.5.1 The computer automaticly build the operators, assign them to missions and proceed.
3.5.2 The computer creates and control the units, but you assign them missions ( also see 3.3 ).
3.5.3 You have no operator units, which requires too much micro-management anyway. You have a "generic" intel screen, which you assign missions and spend money, but you don't use units: you just have basics chance of sucess/fail.

4. Trade

4.1 Single-time trade: this form of trade is a single time exchange of goods between two sides. Every trade process has two sections: "give" and "get". Ofcourse, it's reverse for every other side. To make it clear here, "A" will define what side A gives to side B, or what side B gets from side A, and "B" define what side A wants from side B, or what side B gives to side A. This trade can also apply for gifts and requests, where only one side is filled. You may replace any of the following things in single-time trade:

4.1.1 Land ( a rectangle of land )
4.1.2 Cities
4.1.3 Money
4.1.4 Units
4.1.5 Technology
4.1.6 Resources
4.1.7 Treaty ( sign an alliance with me, and i will give you 50 crdits and steam engine, tech, for example )
4.1.8 Politics ( see 5.8. For example: cancel your alliance with X, and I will give you Y )
4.1.9 Fixed transfer: see 4.2 for extra details. You can create the following suggestion: sign an alliance with me, and i will give you 20 food units for 25 turns.
4.1.10 map information. The entire map, or a certain region.
4.1.11 Intel: sell enemy military units deployment, civ status and city information.
4.1.12 Protoype design: sell a design ( see 2.2.4 ).

4.2 Agreements/Contracts/loans: this section describe how to create a fixed agreement. X items will be replaced by Y items every turn, for infinite time ( or a fixed amount of time ). It can also describe tribute. The following things can be exchanged:

4.2.1 Money. This also applies to loans. For example, a loan looks like this: you give me 1000 credit right now, and I give you 20 credits per turn, for 60 turns ( intersts ).
4.2.2 Resources
4.2.3 Technology access: a very intersting suggestion that also relates to the technology thread. You can grant the other side only limited access to the technology, and not full use ( giving it to him ). He would only be able to use the applications of it, and won't allow to research like he has it ( a technology shelf ). Nor would he keep the technology after you stop sharing it with him. For example, if you share gunner powder with him, he could build muskterees, but that will stop once you stop sharing it with him. Also, the effects of gunner powder ( like ending the effects of wonders and buildings ) won't apply on the other side.
4.2.4 Food
4.2.5 Units: give X units every turn. Genralzied amounts. See 4.3 for extra details.
4.2.6 Design access: similar to 4.2.3, only it grants a limited access to a certain unit design.

4.3 when offering a trade offer, you can also talk in "general" numbers. A general number of units can appear like this:
"Sign an alliance with me, and I will give you some units".
Where units can be generalizied in the following ways:
4.3.1 Some units
4.3.2 Some military units
4.3.3 Some naval units
4.3.4 Some frigate class "B" units
4.3.5 X units ( fixed number )
4.3.6 X mililtary units
4.3.7 X naval units
The other side will then select the number and type of the offer.

5. Diplomatic screen

Here are the following options on the diplomatic screen. Check out the trade section ( 4 ), for further details.

5.1 Ask for treaty ( if you don't want it via the trade screen. Treaties and diplomatic level ).

5.2 Give gift ( add something to "give" section )

5.3 Ask/Demand/Force something ( add something to "get" section, and choose attitude ).

5.4 Offer trade ( add somethin to the "give" and "get" section ).

5.5. Offer trade agreement ( a contract, see 4. Also applies to loans )

5.6 Declare war / break alliance/unity

5.7 Complain ( see 8 )

5.8 Politics: this is a large section. It contains all the options that regards to other players, not just you too. For any request here, it opens a trade screen. You might add something as a gift "sign peace, and i will give you X". The other side might responds in a bigger request ( see 6.2 ).
5.8.1 Offer new member to pact. If you are both members of a pact, you can recommend a new member here.
5.8.2 Expel a member: if you are both members of a pact, here you can recommend the expelation of a certain other member.
5.8.3 Offer new pact: suggest your ally to add you, and form a new pact. See pact section ( 1 ), for limitions and costs.
5.8.4 Ask for peace: ask side B to sign peace with side C.
5.8.5 Declare war: ask side B to declare war on side C.
5.8.6 Ask for Embargo: ask side B to cancel all trade with side C.
5.8.7 Ask to break alliance: ask side B to cancel his alliance/unity with side C.
5.8.8 Ask for side B to complain to side C on something he did to you ( see 8 ).

5.9 Surrender to / Join second side ( see 7.1 )

5.10 Offer surrender/membership: offer the nation to be spared if she joins you, or a full membership ( see 7.1 ).

6. Neogtions

6.1 A very useful option is the option to "screen-save", either map images or statisics, and send them or show them in your negotions. For example, you might show a player the number of your techs when you are trying to convince him to join a science pact with you, a military formation when you want to scare off an enemy to give you credit, and other very nice things.

6.2 Interaction: this is probaly the most important thing. Diplomatic connections should be a prologed, deep, realistic system of responses. Meaning, that the other side will respond to your request/gift/demand/trade with an answer of he's own, and then you can respond to his, and him to you, until a settlement will be reached. It will make trade negotations much more realistic. Here is a details explantions on how this works:

The numbers after the comments shows with sections is the appriopate responses to this responses.
* - present long memory ( see 9.2 ).
** - allows "regret" ( see 6.2.9 ).
A - What side A offer to give side B, or what side B gets from side A.
B - What side A wants/demands from side B, or what side B gives to side A.
It's assumed that negotion starter is side A.

6.2.1. <U>Comments on demand:</u>
"We are more then happy to give it to you". Hand over requested items.
"We will give you want you want, but we won't forget this." -*- Hand over requested items.
"Maybe if you would add this..." Add to "A" (6)
"We can't give you this, but maybe you will approve of this" Change "B" (6)
"Sadly, this is impossible". Cancel demand.(5)
"How dare you! We wish no more connection with you". -**- Cancel all treaties and drop to cease-fire. End demand.(5)
"not only that we will not give you this, but we shell destroy you also!" -**- declare war.
6.2.2 <u>Comments on request:</u>
"We are happy to help our friends." Hand over requested items.
"Sadly, we can't give you what you ask". Cancel request.(7)
"We can't offer you this, but maybe you will like..." Change "B" (8)
"Maybe if you just could..." Add to "A" (8)
6.2.3 <u>Comments to trade-request:</u>
"We gladly accept. A fair deal". commence with trade.
"Maybe if you could just add this..." Add to "A" (8)
"Can't give you this, but phrhaps..." Change "B" (8)
"We have a new agreement in mind..." Reset "A" and "B" (8)
"We are wounded that you can even think about cheating us like this!" -*- Cancel trade offer.(7)
6.2.4 <U>comment on gift:</u>
"We gladly accept your kind gift". Accept gift.
"Sadly, we must refuse". Cancel gift.
6.2.5 <u>Comments on refual of demand:</u>
"You dare refuse us?! This would not be forgotton". -*- cancel demand.
"For this insult, we cancel our relations with your people". -**- Cancel all treaties, end talk.
"What?! You shell die for this insult!" -**- Declare war.
6.2.6 <u>Comments on new-offer after demand:</u>
"We are not here to trade with you! But it's acceptable". Accpet new offer.
"You will also grant us... and then we will spare you". Add to "B" (1)
"We will say this no more! Give us what we want!" Return trade status to original one. Re-demand. (1)
"Very well then. Bit we will watch you." Cancel demand. More hostile.
"You think we wish to bargain with you? You will die!" -**- Declare war.
6.2.7 <u>Comments on refusal of trade/request offer:</u>
"Very well then. Consider our offer invalid." cancel offer.
"What if we also add this..." Add to "A" (2).
"We ask you kindly, and you refused us. This will not be forgotton." -*- cancel offer.
6.2.8 <u>Comments on change of trade/request offer:</u>
"Very well then. Consider our offer invalid." cancel offer.
"Maybe you can also include this" Add to "B" (3)
"We can't give you this, but what about..." Change "A" (3)
"You refused our fair offer? This will not be forgtotton." -*- cancel offer.
6.2.9 ** Regrets: when a certain side says something like ""You think we wish to bargain with you? You will die!", it has ** after it. Meaning, that the other side has an option to regret. For the response after it, and only then, you may respond in "very well then, we will give you what you want". If you choose not to regret, the threat will automaticy take place ( the declaration of war, or cancelation of all treaties ).

7 Diplomatic realtions

7.1 Surrender effect: when a nation surrenders to you, when you choose to accept it membership proposel or she accepted your offer, when you conquered the entire nation or when you conquered just a part but the rest of the nation is destroyed, you have a decision to make on what to do with the civ ( or the part of the civ you have ). You have the following options:

7.1.1 Vassal: Vassal nations still keep there autonomy, but gives you a fixed tribute, all thier technology, and are allways allied with you. They are still AI controlled and have thier own army. However, they are reasonably happy ( if you don't tax them too high ), and won't rebel too often. ( +30% unrest ).
7.1.2 Annix: The entire nations becomes part of your own empire, just like any other city. However, if it's not a membership addition ( a conquered nation ), the popultion of the city will be vary unhappy and will convert very slowly. They will remain unhappy and the corruption rating will be twice as high ( see economics thread for pirates section ). The only solution is to give the nation autonomy. The diplomatic pact ( UN ), may force a conqueror to grant that civ autonomy ( +100% unrest ).

7.1.3 Split: Like annixing, only you can split the civ ( city by city ) between several nations. Good when several allies attacked the enemy toghther.

7.1.4 Autonomy: Much like vassal, only the AI gives you no tribute. They remain loyal ( allied ) to you, but unlike vassal they don't have to. They posses no military, and requires your might to protect them. They will give a fixed taxs ( like they were your own cities ), but you may not ask any more by tribute. ( +10% unrest ).

7.1.5 Confed:The city belongs to you, and share your color, but the city will always be controled by the AI goverenor. Any units it produce belongs to you, but you can't decide or direct the AI. The city pays taxs and give science output as normal ( +60% unrest ).

7.1.6 Total freedom: The nations returns it complete freedom, and have no connections ( and no taxs ) to the conqueror. However, the citizens will be very fond of your empire, and will be in unity status with you ( see 7.2 ).

7.2. Unity: a special, new form of alliance. Unity is a "shared-victory-condition" status. United nations can win togther. They can build a spaceship togthter ( both win ), kill all other players, or try to make one world leader. The unity is however, NOT a union: other nations can't just join. It's not a pact. However, if a third party wants to sign a unity with one part, he must sign unity status will the second part ( also true when you have three, four and even five such players united togther ).
7.2.1 In unity, the following treaties are allready signed: 2.1.1, 2.1.4, 2.2.1, 2.2.2, 2.2.6, 2.3.5. You may sign all the treaties, expect for monopoly ( 2.3.6 ).
7.2.2 Should unity require both nations to have the same goverement type? What about religous and market selections?
7.2.3 All sides in the unity must be atleast with peace with all the friends of the other side.
7.2.4 it was suggested that united wonders treaty will be automaticly signed for every wonder ( see 2.3.2 ).
7.2.5 Every side should contribute to the cause of the union of the two ( or more ) nations. While you are not forced to give the same thing ( for example, even if the union is in war, if you give your share by the value of food, money or technology, and not weapons, it's ok ). However, if a certain side seems to be negelecting it's duties ( not giving a major portion of a certain key reqruirment: food, money, tech, units ), then you may be charged with a fee.
7.2.6 Should unity be limited to only democracies and republics? Personaly, I don't support this.
7.2.7 The maximum number of unity members must be limited. It should not be more then 20% of civs in the game, rounded up. For example, if they are 12 players, not more then 3 may group toghter ( the rest can grouped toghther, but still no more then 3 ). This means that no specific group is bigger then 3, but you CAN have four groups of three, for example.
7.2.8 It's was suggested that any union member can temper, and change, to a certain degree the economy of the rest of the members. Meaning, he can move people around the cities, direct the build quaue, upgrade units, disband old units, and so on. Meaning, help improve the status of his friend empire. Ofcourse, some players may use this power to the worse. I suggest giving the unity members only limited powers.

7.3 Diplomatic levels: in civ II, we had four levels of diplomatic levels: war, truce, peace and alliance. This is clearly not enough, considering how many different levels were proposed over the forums. I try to summarize the similar ones, and show them all here, so, from total peace to total war, here we go:

7.3.1 Unity: see 7.2 for further details.
7.3.2 Alliance: Similar to brotherhood pact in SMAC. You may not attack the other side, and may sign all the treaties with your ally ( including militarial ones ). You automaticly share all map information with your ally, and you can co-ordinate strikes against your enemies.
7.3.2.1 Alliance safe-step: you may not declare war on an ally. You may only "cancel alliance", which drops you to peace status. Only in the next turn can you declare war.
7.3.2.2 Alliance should give you bonus to science and trade output.
7.3.3 Peace: very similar to peace in civ II and SMAC. You may trade with your friend, and sign all the treaties except for militarial ones. Borders are fixed, and may not be moved even by close expansion.
7.3.3.1 Declaring war on your peaceful friend cause great moral damage ( see 7.4 ).
7.3.4 Cease-fire: you may not enter the enemy land, and you may trade with him via the diplomacy screen ( but not create trade treaties ). You can only sign agreement treaties ( see 2.4 ), and create ambassies. You may spy on your enemy, but not have any act of sabotage/terrorize.
7.3.4.1 Should cease-fire cancel after some time?
7.3.4.2 Should borders be fixed, or moving ( just without conquering enemy land? ).
7.3.5 Neutrality/Hostility: A level of no-communcation with the other nations. Borders are not fixed, and may move. You can have low level of espionage, but not any direct assault ( like sabotage ). You can't trade with the other side, but you can sign agreement treaties ( see 2.4 ).
7.3.6 Strike: a level of limited war. You may not take over cities, and none of the negative minus ( or bonuses ) of war applies to your economy. However, the senate and other players will constantly demand you stop the strike.
7.3.7 War: a total war, just like in civ II. However, a prolonged war should effect your economy: gives a bonus to military producation, while hampering civilian infra-structure. The minus to the infrastructutre should effect you several turns even after the war ended. You may not commit any major atrocities however, like nuking.
7.3.7.1 it was suggested to limit the amount of cities you can take over in several turns, for example, up to 3 cities in 10 turns.
7.3.8 Total war/genocide: a much more powerful war. Your bonus to military, and morale, is huge. You can commit and atrocities, and nuke enemy cities. However, it can't be done in democracy/republic, and cause huge diplomatic damage. A diplomatic pact might declare war on you if you declare genocide.

9. Long memory

The AI should "rememebr" things, and treatments over the years. It thus responed in a much more realistic fashion.
9.1 If you asks him to declare war on another player, he won't go and sign peace with him just a few turns after you talked.
9.2. If you refused to give him something he wants, he might mention it later, or let it change it attitude. For example, when you ask him for 1000 credit, he might say: "X turns ago we asked you for your X tech. If you want your credits, give us what we want".
9.3 A very unique and intriguing idea was suggested that the rules of diplomatic conduct should be an evolution in each game. Rules of conduct means defination of atrocities, there level, and other events. For example, if used for a great deal of time by many sides, blocking or sieging cities might be considered normal, while in other games sieging might be considered a major atrocities. Slavery might be accepted in a certain game ( for example, if no democracy existed for a very long time ), while in some other games it could turn the entire world against you. Those rules will be based on the process of each game, and the AI should act accordingly.

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<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Harel (edited September 25, 1999).]</font>
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