EC3 Fix #14 - NO MORE INSTANT CITY CONVERSIONS

[raingoon]

by Father Beast

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</font>a fix for when you capture a city and all the citizens are suddenly yours. like the classic when you nuke the city and take it over, and they hold a "we love the conquerer" day.
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<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by raingoon (edited February 20, 2000).]</font>

[Imran Siddiqui]

Great idea! One of the things I liked about Moo2, is that the people on the planet that you just conquered had to pacified before being nice to you. Same with Age of Wonders I think.

[Matthevv]

Yes, you should have to keep military units in the city for a while, and should not be able to recruit new military units from there for a while. That city should remain more prone to unhappiness and rebellion for a long time.

[Frank Johnson]

Let's give civ2 credit where its due. Civ2 tries to simulate this. When you take over a city, it loses some improvements, but it ALWAYS loses temples and cathedrals if they had any.

Its just usually, that we come waltzing in with Mikes, A better government form, Bach's, a high luxury rate....and they are just overwhelmed

I admit though, Caputred cities should be more routy, but martial law should apply to them, no matter what the government.

[korn469]

Father Beast

first can you define what the problem is? is it a significant problem? how does your ideas fix that problem specifically? does your fix effect any other areas of the game? if it does effect another area does it upset game balance in those other areas? is there a simpler way to fix the problem? does your idea hurt gameplay? why out of all of the ideas does your fix belong on this list?

i think SMAC's system is on the right track and with some tweaks could fix exactly what you are talking about...

[Father Beast]

Korn469:
OK, first the problem: When you capture an enemy city, supposedly full of citizens of a civilization you have been at war with, they seem to welcome you with open arms, and are instantly your citizens, just as if you built this city yourself back in 4000 b.c. or thereabouts. This is sometimes taken to absurdity when you nuke a city and then take it over, and the next turn they hold a "we love the premier" day in your honor.

I didn't have a specific fix in mind when I posted. I just want to point it out as something that really should be fixed. I believe this problem is of the level of ICS (another EC fix) or the classic "That Phalanx killed my Battleship!" of civ1. I was impressed by the way that was fixed for civ2, i.e. a more complex combat system for civ2 that didn't require a new set of skills for gameplay. The fix was an automatic behind the scenes sort of thing. I was hoping that Firaxis would recognize the problem and take care of it in a way that didn't hurt gameplay, like last time.
But if I were to suggest a fix...
Captured cities have one or two more "naturally" unhappy people than usual for their pop and difficulty level, continuing for a limited time (say, 5 or 10 turns).
Captured cities have production restrictions as if they were under a despotism, or if you are a despotism, even more restricted than that. Like a "President's day" in reverse.
Captured cities have a corruption and waste rate that is incredibly high, dwindling over the next several turns.
Combinations of some or all of the above.
I have never played AC (maybe when it gets to the cheap rack in a couple of years) or CtP, so I don't know how they dealt with the problem. if you could enlighten me??
the fixes I SUGGEST would not affect other areas of gameplay, although more esoteric fixes (such as cultural, racial and such models) would. I just want to point it out and leave it up to the makers to find the best way.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Father Beast (edited February 28, 2000).]</font>

[Xin Yu]

This is a SNES game 'rise of the pheonix' had this situation: You occupy a city, but you don't get anything from it. The gate is still closed. You can attack the citizens (lose some troops and decrease population) to gain control of the city, but the loyalty is pretty low and you don't get much out of it (income is tied to loyalty). Your reputation is dropped as well so your generals may refuse to serve you anymore (deserted). Or, you can ask the elder kindly to open the gate. If refused, give alms to the people and feast the elders. Repeate it several times until the gate is open. You gain a lot of income if you occupy the city this way.

[korn469]

Father Beast

in SMAC, allof the factions have a different city icon, when you capture a city, it changes to your color but the city icon stays the same. this represents that you have just captured this city. it takes 50 years to assimilate the city. during those fifty years drones (unhappy) citizens are increased and the city only cost half as much for the original owner to buy it back. every ten years the number of drones decreases until after 50 years when the city assimilates into your empire. once the city assimilates it's icon changes to your faction's city icon and buying the city goes to normal price.

korn469

[Father Beast]

Yes, something like that in AC would be good, although I would suggest that during the assimmilation phase the original civ can not only buy it back at reduced price, but also reconquer it without having to reassimmilate it.

Perhaps a captured city could show mixed loyalties by having little flags of the previous owner's color attached to a variable number of pop icons. There could be more than one, if the civ you conquered or bribed it from had recently conquered or bribed it from another.

It would not be limited to unhappy dudes. Heck, look at Quebec. It's been 240 years since the Brits took control and they'd still have little French flags attached to them.

[korn469]

Father Beast

in SMAC if you recapture (liberate) one of your cities you don't have to assimilate it, however there is a bug that lets say you lose a city on this turn to the purple civ, and then the blue civ captures your city next turn, when they take it the city automatically becomes a purple civ city (i think that is what happens) also if you gift that city to somebody else it becomes their city or if you buy a city in the diplomacy screen it automatically becomes your city (but if you just threaten them and they give it to you it is like you captured it)

on a side note i think that you reputation should have something to do with assimilation

here is the SMAC reputation levels:

Noble
Faithful
Scrupulous
Dependable
Ruthless
Treacherous
Wicked
Infamous

in SMAC you start at Noble, i would change it to this and have the player start at honorable and have the ability to increase reputation slowly over time if certain criteria is met...in SMAC you can't increase your reputation

Noble: -10 years to assimilate, +2 commerce no people are killed when you occupy a city
Honorable: normal
Faithful: +5 years to assimilate
Scrupulous: +10 years to assimilate -1 commerce
Dependable: +15 years to assimilate -1 commerce, causes refugees
Ruthless: +20 years to assimilate -2 commerce causes refugees
Treacherous: +25 years to assimilate -2 commerce causes refugees
Wicked: +30 years to assimilate -3 commerce causes mass refugees
Infamous: cities never assimilate -3 commerce causes mass refugees

i am completely for their being consequences for having a low reputation besides having the incompetant AI gang up on you...and refugees would work like when the Aliens capture a base in SMACX

korn469
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited February 29, 2000).]</font>

[The Mad Viking]

I think this is a really important fix. The types of penalties listed should apply, but severity and duration should vary tremendously, based on how well you treat the citizens AND how similar your Civ is to theirs. Fundy's should be slow to assimilate to a decadent democratic regime, whereas another democratic regime would assimilate very quickly if the conquerer increased their wealth.

I think the Partisans is a great way of showing this, but I think it doesn't go far enough. Rebels should appear in the nearby countryside periodically, in greater numbers and frequency when the assimilation is not going well. They should pillage your mines, blow up bridges, kill engineers, and be difficult to find for your troops. And if they take back a city, other cities that are nearby should revolt, and where your military presence isn't strong enough, units in that city should be destroyed.

[Sirotnikov]

Wow there, mad viking!
I think the Partisans like in Civ 2 is sufficiant. Of course, there is a cheat problem where if you put your untis in the squares surrounding the city, partisans never appear. That should be fixed.

What I would take from your offer however, is that partisans shouldn't all appear in the same turn. They're quantity should depend on city size, former nation's attitude towards you, your approval rating.
And the little evil things should appear in decent quantities in surrounding tiles. That would go on for a few turns, again depending on the variables i mentioned.

I wouldn't want whole hordes to appear. I mean, I waisted enough units conquering the f***ing city and fortifying it. If I'll need to kill 10 partisans each turn it will require for me to always keep at least 5 or 6 units near the occupied city. Not to mention that if that repeats itself, I would have to replace those who are destroyed every 3 or 4 turns. That way there's no way I'll ever conquer more than two citys in each war.

It has to be reasonable. I know the nazis had a difficult time restraining partizans in france, but they still managed to send a whole lot of troops to the russian front. And that was while whole of France was revolting (sort of). Not one lousy city.

But the general idea of spanning the partisans through out the turns is good.

[The Mad Viking]

I know it sounded terrible, but I didn't mean that Rebels should be in overwhelming numbers, rather they should be a pain in the @$$ that you have a real problem getting rid of. I like keeping things simple, so your idea of just stretching out the years for Partisans makes good sense. I do think that they shold do rebel type things, like blow up your bridges and pillage your mines. I also think they should be hard to find - invisible except to special units or when they're actually doing something. Partisans now are too easy to handle just occupy the five or so good defensive tiles and kill em in the plains and grasslands. And if you leave one in a mountain fortress, you can count on him coming down to certain slaughter in a couple of turns. I also don't think they should be bribable. These people are true believers with a pathological hatred for the army that killed their relatives. They're not going to be bought off.

Which reminds me - "The forces of Democracy cannot be bought?" make me gag. The forces of capitalism should be the easiest to be bought, IF you have more money than they currently get. Money is the value system. Fundamentalists should be hardest- they believe in something other than money. (OT?)

[pauli]

a more dynamic resistance would be good. i think that partisans *should* appear right away - unless you have occupied the entire area to stamp them out before they can organize. then, over time, more should appear, as was suggested.

oh, and partisans should be bribable - they may be displaced guerillas, but they are still human, and most of them still get tired of war after a point. now, it would be fine if you couldn't bribe them right away... but after a few turns, yeah, they should be ripe for the picking. however, it might not be a bad idea to have a few of them unbribable.

[Father Beast]

FINAL DRAFT:

The problem of "Instant City Conversions" is that when you conquer a city, the citizens are suddenly yours, as if the city had been originally built by your civilization. They are governed by your government system, and experience the immediate benefit of your wonders and luxury rates. This is taken to the absurd extreme when a city is nuked a couple of times before being captured, and the citizens hold a "We Love The King" day the next turn after being captured.

Some possibilities for fixing this problem are:
High waste and/or corruption rates for captured cities.
Tile production penalties in captured cities. Like a "We Love The... Day" in reverse.
A specific bar against captured cities having a "We Love The... Day" for a certain number of turns.
A block against captured cities feeling the effect of your Wonders for a certain number of turns.
An increase in "naturally" unhappy people, making it difficult to keep out of disorder.
The most reasonable suggestion is the presence of "Drones" in the captured city, as in Alpha Centauri. (I haven't played Alpha Centauri, I have only had it explained to me by Korn469)

What I envision is in a captured city, a certain number of citizens become "Drones" i.e. citizens that not only are unhappy,but also do no work. So you not only have to deal with the unhappiness, but also the production drop. Partisans would appear around the city, but only as many as there are "Drone" citizens. (after all, it is essentially the drones that support the partisans)
The number of "Drones" that appear and the time it takes to "convert" the city (gradually decreasing drones) would depend on the conquering civilization's government AND the conquered civilization's government. A depotism taking a despotism's city wouldn't make much difference, but a democracy taking a despotism's city would actually reduce the drones created. The highest penalty would come from a despotism taking a democracy's (or a fundamentalist's ) city, with as much as half of the population becoming drones.

some notes:
If a city is bought, given, or conquered by a third party before being converted, its alliegance should remain to the original civilization
Despite what form of government you have, you should be able to enforce "martial law" in captured cities with your units, at least for the first phase of conversion. Note that although you make the drones less unhappy, you still can't get them to work or stop supporting partisans.
Reputation may or may not play a part in converting your captured cities. IMO, the governments and difference between would make a bigger difference.
These don't take into account any social engineering models or culture. if these are implemented in civ3, that would make a big difference.

In closing, I want to point out that these are SUGGESTIONS. I am not a programmer or playtester on civ3 (but wouldn't I like to be ) and I don't know the right balance that will be neccesary to keep the game fun. I trust team Firaxis to fix the problem, and in a way that makes the game more fun.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Father Beast (edited March 09, 2000).]</font>

[korn469]

Fix #9 - No More Instant City Conversions

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>The problem of "Instant City Conversions" is that when you conquer a city, the citizens are suddenly yours, as if the city had been originally built by your civilization. They are governed by your government system, and experience the immediate benefit of your wonders and luxury rates. This is taken to the absurd extreme when a city is nuked a couple of times before being captured, and the citizens hold a "We Love The King" day the next turn after being captured.

Some possibilities for fixing this problem are:
High waste and/or corruption rates for captured cities.
Tile production penalties in captured cities. Like a "We Love The... Day" in reverse.
A specific bar against captured cities having a "We Love The... Day" for a certain number of turns.
A block against captured cities feeling the effect of your Wonders for a certain number of turns.
An increase in "naturally" unhappy people, making it difficult to keep out of disorder.
The most reasonable suggestion is the presence of "Drones" in the captured city, as in Alpha Centauri. (I haven't played Alpha Centauri, I have only had it explained to me by korn469)

What I envision is in a captured city, a certain number of citizens become "Drones" i.e. citizens that not only are unhappy,but also do no work. So you not only have to deal with the unhappiness, but also the production drop. Partisans would appear around the city, but only as many as there are "Drone" citizens. (after all, it is essentially the drones that support the partisans)
The number of "Drones" that appear and the time it takes to "convert" the city (gradually decreasing drones) would depend on the conquering civilization's government AND the conquered civilization's government. A depotism taking a despotism's city wouldn't make much difference, but a democracy taking a despotism's city would actually reduce the drones created. The highest penalty would come from a despotism taking a democracy's (or a fundamentalist's ) city, with as much as half of the population becoming drones.

some notes:
If a city is bought, given, or conquered by a third party before being converted, its alliegance should remain to the original civilization
Despite what form of government you have, you should be able to enforce "martial law" in captured cities with your units, at least for the first phase of conversion. Note that although you make the drones less unhappy, you still can't get them to work or stop supporting partisans.
Reputation may or may not play a part in converting your captured cities. IMO, the governments and difference between would make a bigger difference.
These don't take into account any social engineering models or culture. if these are implemented in civ3, that would make a big difference.

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<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited March 09, 2000).]</font>