History of the World . . .

[The Capo]

Speech given in Manchester to soldiers headed to America before departure...

I stand before you not as a King, as a Monarch or Emperor, but as a fellow Adriatic. Today you begin a long and dangerous journey, one that has only been achieved by a select few, one that will live on in history whether you are successful or not. There have been many fears as of late, many assumptions. We look accross the great deserts of the Khazak steppe, we look accross the glorious Mediterranean, we look into South America, into Asia prepared for the worst horrors: An international incursion. As a nation we feel helpless and frustrated, our viewpoint is being ignored and mangled by politics. We have grown and developed in a world that does not trust us, for whatever reason, this distrust is unfounded and unfair. We have grown in a world where a most powerful alliance looms in the east, we have chosen not to let this effect us, we have chosen not to let fear rule our nation. A new regime arose in the Mali Kingdom, King Rahim Abdul wrenched power from Ray King. He made large claims, made threats, again we did not allow fear to rule our nation. Talk, whether idle or realistic, has spread throughout the world, talk of an Asian intervention in the Mali-Adriatic war have hit home quite harshly, again we do not allow fear to rule our nation. To the world you are greedy tyrants, to the world you are undeserving of what is yours, to the world you are evil. Men I look upon you, the youth of the Adriatic League, you are our future and I believe in your ability to defend this nation at all costs. Most of you will perish, most of you will never see your homes again, most of you will never see the glory of Europe after you set sail for your various encampments. You will never again see your family, your friends, your life being wrestled away from you be the greedy Mali. But men you must fight, fight your hearts out, you must be brave courageous and dogged in battle. Do not give one inch, not one! You will die, but you will live on forever, for you will be the men that have ignored the petty politics, and greed and tyranny of this wretched planet, you will be the beacon of virtue and bravery. Stand up to them, for they are wrong. As they are wrong we are right. And as we are right, my friends, we shall be victorious! Now go to, and save your nation!

[Mr Dimbleby]

I can't play before 8 next week. I am scheduled to work overtime next Thursday, so I won't leave from work until 7EST, which means I won't be arriving home until about 8.

[Mr Dimbleby]

I can't play before 8 next week. I am scheduled to work overtime next Thursday, so I won't leave from work until 7EST, which means I won't be arriving home until about 8.

I would be able to play a supplemental session Tuesday from 8 -11 though.

------------------
Thousands of monkeys are creating havoc in the corridors of power, barging into government offices, stealing food, threatening bureaucrats, and even ripping apart valuable documents.

Hey! That dried vomit under the couch looks like a horny toad.

Your Tues no good for me - I work Weds here.

Am happy for that longer session on any of your Thursday nights though.

------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[The Capo]

Alright I just want to say a few things before we continue with our normal posting and whatever...

The past three weeks have been substandard as far as normal gaming goes. The first week War4 didn't show and we were forced to omit that session, the second week we had connection problems with Deity not to mention the coup de etat if you will for two seperate nations, this past week there were again connection problems (on my part) as well as a pointless joke (again on my part) resulting in an early retirement and subsequent two hour session.

I find it necessary that we play some type of suppliment session or extra time or something to get this game back on track. Drake has suggested the following: We play from 6:00pm EST (U.S) until 12:00 am EST (U.S.) I understand that this may be an issue for everyone in the group. So I took the liberty to question a few of the players. As Drake was the one who suggested it I assume he was good for this time slot, I am, Chris said he would be, Deity said he would be, Sekong said he would be, Prometheus said he would be, which only leaves Dimbleby. In order for this to go through we may have to omit the last hour in Drake's plan and end at the normal 11:00 pm EST (U.S.) time slot.

So I guess I am asking Dimb whether or not he can play from 6:00 pm to 11:00 pm next week?

I do understand that initially we agreed that the time was to begin each week at 8:00 pm. But I am asking for some type of sacrifice from each of you in order to make this thing work. I am basically at your mercy Dimb, I think the whole group is. I offer the following suggestion, if this is too late of notice for you to set up the extra two hours, then I think the group would suggest we do it the following week. Either way a good solid auxillery session/time frame would help this game.

A new rules.txt will be needed again next week, I apologize but a few glitches were discovered in my regular playtest after this past session and I want to correct those glitches. But this isn't entirely bad, if you noticed any mistakes or what anything changed for your particular tribe (the Monarch title of Pharoah for the Mali for instance) just make it known to me and I will fix it, consider this a clean up week. The game's a mess but our group's been handling it much better than I think anyone would have predicted.

Alright well, the new suppliment rules.txt (and possibly a graphics change here or there) will be up on Monday or Tuesday. This time around I would really like some feedback on what you guys think should/will happen in the next few weeks, because they are important for the survival of this game. Thanks a lot, peace.

[The Capo]

<center></center>

The Following Is the Declaration of Independence of the Various Nations of Europe from the Kingdom and House of Habsburg.

The nature of man is independant and competitive. Both of which have been negated and compramised under the reign of any Monarch. For a whole people to be held under the rule of one single man, one single family, or one single iron law not of their own collective creation is unnatural and degrading. It is under these truths that the Nations of Europe declare their independence from the Kingdom and House of Habsburg.

The grievances of the people are numerous. Thousands of men were sent on long journies accross the sea only to be told to return home by a King who decided it was in his best interest to make it so. Projects for development at home were put to a halt during this time of war, and were simply put back on track, the loss being suffered by the people rather than the government. Pounds and pounds of gold were poured into projects that were never finished due to political strife and bargianing, again the people suffered without a single ounce of respect towards their feelings or tribulations.

The forced faith towards Roman Catholicism has been a tribulation upon the peace of these people, tythes upon tythes are being levied in order to support the chosen faith of the King, and while the vast majority of the citizenry proscribes to this faith its forced servitude on all of them shall be seen as yet another form of survitude towards the King, who by no official act of doctrine or sacrament claims himself to be ordained by god to rule his people.

Constant taxation of income and shipping has been a detriment to the proliferation of trade and enterprise, these rights to property gained by fair means shall not be abridged, however the King has seen fit to use the prosperity of the people to line his pockets.

The idea that one man can command the futures of thousands upon battlefields, allowing them to be slaughtered by terrible enemies simply for the wealth of the King is to be ended. If the collective sees fit to make war we shall see fit to make war.

Based on proscribed grievances, and many others to which have not been delineated we make the following changes to the governance of the people of Europe and its various nations and territories therein or abroad.

I. The right to elect and thus change the government shall not be denied.

II. The seperation of church and taxes and dues of and by the church shall in no way be enforced or regulated by the government of the people of Europe and its various colonies therein and abroad.

III. The military of the people shall be regulated and dispatched at the behest of a government established and ordained by the people, and shall not be used in any way which goes against the collective will of the people.

IV. No laws shall be enacted upon the people unless at the majority vote of a collective representation of the people.

V. No person of title shall be exempt from the laws of the common people.

VI. No title of nobility thus related to the will of a church, parish, faction, or otherwise may be granted upon any citizen unless at the behest of the collective of the people.

VII. No treaty or agreement with a foreign power is to be made unless lineated by a majority of a representation of the collective of the people.

VIII. No state or geographic entity within the union of European provinces, duchies, states, or territories shall be more powerful than the other parts of the union, and no state or territory or province or duchy or geographic entity shall weild more power than the collective of these states, territories, provinces, duchies, or geographic entities.

IX. Only laws proscribed by a representation of the collective of the people shall be enforced upon any citizen of this country or any other within the boundries of this nation.

X. The access to any worship however much in the minority, any expression of ideology or belief however much in the minority or however much considered offensive to others shall be abridged upon any citizen of this or any other nation within the boundries of this nation. No act of legislation whether or not by the collective may abridge this notion.

Based on the previous ten criteria, we hereby declare this collective of European States formally known as the United Adriatic Kingdoms or Adriatic League to be now deemed the Unified Adriatic States, any rules or regulations signed by the former United Adriatic Kingdoms or its governing entities shall hereby be withdrawn with the exception of any former international arrangements which the new government shall respect unless it deems otherwise.

We now declare these States Adriatic a Republic.

N. Bonaparte
V. Emanuele
N. Machiavelli
G. Garibaldi
E. Cavour
S. Montpinsiere
W. Von Oranj - Nassau
L. Eriksson
P. Wilhelm
S. Salvador
G. Pochenko
K. Attaturk
O. Cromwell
B. Greco
M. Mazzini
E. Panini
G. Mantucci

[The Capo]

Alright, here is my question for you Dimb.

Is it possible at all that you play NEXT Thursday from 6:00-11:00? It is quite important that we at least get one suppliment session in, we need something to kick start this game. Granted it is surviving, but its on life support. So I am willing to figure out a better day to play an extra session, this week Drake can't do an extra one, so may be next week would be a good idea to start figuring out a day/time/whatever for this suppliment session to occur on.

Other than that, I don't think our issues are that bad. Everyone seems to be taking the past three weeks' problems in stride. I think that is a good indication of the types of players we have assembled for this game, and it makes me quite optimistic about this game seeing its proper finish (knock on wood).

So all in all I am quite pleased with how we've been handling everything, and I think that if we get this supplimental session in we can really be better off than we are now. Godwilling this session goes off without a hitch.

Peace.

[sekong]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by drake on 03-28-2001 03:49 PM</font>
Absolutely not an option for a diplo game. You can't be diplomatic when you're playing single player because the AI doesn't usually represent your intentions very well. Your AI representative goes and signs an alliance with someone and boom. Game screwed up.

I appreciate the idea of wanting to get more play time in with the game, but it's just not an option for this sort of game. Sorry


<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I have to bring back, because I think it's really an option worth of consideration. Since most of drake's concern is AI diplomatic part, we can make the rule that NEVER do dipo with AI. As my concern of re-open huts or reload game, etc., We can make another rule that at leat 2 player together make the game progress.

Generally We just need a player A on his turn and at least one another player, who should be the player next to player A. If you want to dipo or war, just add one other party you dipo/war with, then the game can move. Each time just need 5-10 min depend on how many players involved.

The biggest problem of general dipo is that you need have all 7 players together in a big chunck of time, say 3 hours. Therefore it's difficult to arrange. But in above method, we need only 2+ players together for 5 min or so then we can have the game move.

For example, next time I see deity on line, We set up 5 min's game, I keep the sav. Next time I see capo, we can have another move. and so on.

Please, every one speak out what do u think about it.

[GNGSpam]

PBEM is completely out of the question for me. For one, I like for my sessions scheduled. The rest of my time is very haphazard. I cant just "pick up" a game all the time. Sometimes im free a lot, sometimes I have NO free day.

But this goes beyond, I run constant running diplomacy. From the time I enter to a couple of hours after a session ends im talking to someone about something. PBEM hinders a running "contact", and were a situation to come up, such as war, I would be completely hamstrung in my ability to respond.

PS I am not opposed to making up time, but you need to SCHEDULE it so that I can plan my week around these events. I have a life like I suspect everyone else does too, and it unfourtantly does not stand still for Civ2 despite my fondest desires.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by GNGSpam (edited April 03, 2001).]</font>

[The Capo]

As I said earlier, the only day I can really play a solid sessoin of Civ is the day we play our game. Chris knows this firsthand from the other day, I have patches of time available but its so unpredictable and split apart that I couldn't really fit in another session UNLESS we planned it a week in advance.

As Drake suggested we could add two hours to the beginning of this next session and start at 6:00pm EST rather than the normal 8:00pm EST timeslot. Everyone but Dimbleby said this would suffice, Dimb I am pleading with you as the "captain" of this group to make the time available next week so we can get this suppliment session out of the way and get back on track. I don't beg a lot, but I am begging for you to make this a reality right now. If you can't do it the week following this Thursday's session then I implore you to free it up for the week following that. I think this would help lift the morale of the game, which by the way I don't think is half as bad as it would be in a normal group.

So I'd like to thank everyone for the effort they've been putting into this game, the posts, showing up on time and having patience has really helped this game make its mark around here and that's a positive thing for the Diplogaming genre.

I'd appreciate it if everyone could find the time to write up a short two paragraph statement for the website, Drake has really been working hard on it and we have been geting a lot of hits lately so we think its a good part of the game and the more content it has the better the responses are, so please try and write something up for the website I'd really appreciate it.

Other than that everything has been really awesome, I knew when I looked at our "roster" that this was going to be a solid bunch of players, anything I say in posts or in the game is just that, I hold all of you in the highest regards.

Peace.

[The Capo]

(I dunno what Chris was thinking but he put this post in the regular MP area, so this is a MALI POST, this is not an ADRIATIC POST, thank you and here goes...)

Ninth Legion
Commandant Hatter Abdul

Troops having marched the breadeth of the Great Northern Forest arrive in position southeast of Salzburg, north of the source of the Barri River (known natively as the Mississippi, flowing east), east of the Fourth Mounted.

Bivouked for night, sentries placed 100 yards in all directions. No sign of native activity.

Food plentiful, Land is dry but could be quite profitable with some development.

Reports from Commandant Sikasso Garalo say his Fiftenth Legion has arrived at the joining of the Barri River and the Tinkisso Rivers (the Missouri flowing south) and will begin movement by boat towards our position.

Brigader Mourdiah Nara of the Fourth Mounted further sends reports of "All Quiet"

We will strike camp and head out in the morning.

[sekong]

Thanks to drake and Chris about your oppions about my suggestions. It just remind me of something that maybe I did not put them clearly:
1. All I suggested was about a supplement of our regular thursday session, not a replacement of it.
2. What I suggested is not a generally PBEM, which I understand is single
player playing+passing file to next player. Instead, what I suggested
was 2+ players' gathering when we can't have all 7 players on-line at
same time.
3. It's a new question to drake, Chris and others not speaking out yet: If you can't do it yourself, do you mind other players have a such short session, then STOP BEFORE your turn?

Thanks

[The Capo]

Sekong I know this is going to be hard for you to understand:

Drake and Chris's problems arent that they get skipped, or aren't that nobody will be online, its that we won't be together and the atmosphere is different this is a DIPLOgame, we aren't playing to finish for the sake of finishing, we are playing for the Diplomatic aspects, and we are playing to finish becuase we achieved that level.

Speed should not be our MAIN concern, effective playtime should be what we consider most important, and by effective I mean quality playtime that is enjoyable. Hopefully that allayed your questions.

I have yet to hear a response from Dimbleby, its an important matter and I HATE to think that he doesn't check out the thread when he gets the chance...

[sekong]

Seems there is miscommunication here. I suggest what I did because I WANT to be more DIPO. Given a large empire, I need time to arrange them. I think if we could have a small in-between session, I should be able to review my cities and manage them. Then during the REAL session, I may do less management and more dipo. I think I said it in my very first post about these. Did I make myself clear ?

[Prometheus]

I don’t know if I will be able to play that early on the Thursday before Easter. I can let you know sometime next week; it depends on when my drive is leaving to go home. And if we decide to go with Sekong idea of playing a turn or two between games that’s cool with me.

Now game issues:

To the Adriatic’s:

By no means has the Chinese Empire held the Adriatic’s in ill will, however we believe that you have taken everything out of proportion. Our Empire has had some hard times with the civil war and reestablishing of the monarchy. So let us put your fears to rest, as most of you messages have gotten lost in the mail so to speak.

Now honestly good King of the Adriatic’s do you think so little of your army patrols that one of the Pacific Pact could ever place a city in the middle of your empire. Please sir, this is silly, the people of the Chinese embassy have were joking around with one another when such a message was sent due to the outbreak of civil war. Taking it seriously as you did makes us wonder if you are using any excuse to go to war with our Mongol neibors, especially with such a ludicrous statement as the one that was sent.

Next you accuse the Chinese empire of a military build up. I do not know whether to laugh or cry at such a statement, the Chinese empire has less military units than it does cities. If that is a military build up I am the King of Zululand.

Now we comes the issue of the Mongol city in Chinese territories, we understand the Adriatic’s concern but as the Chinese can not settle as fast as other powers due to fewer recourses we asked the Mongols to build a city or two in our territory and then gift it to us to help us settle our land.

As you can see these our just misunderstandings due to our communications being out of sorts as the new monarchy cemented its control. We ask you to re-recognize our claims and to withdraw your troops from Mongolian territory.


Sincerely,

King Prometheus

[GNGSpam]

Julia 5th, the Year of 280 A.D (After.Discovery)

Ship at Sea

Off the Coast of Porto Marino, enroute to New Timbuktu and the Consults office.

Orders came in from the Homeland. New World fleet is going to be kept in the Region for at least another year. The 18th Horse Cavalry on board has also been ordered docked. Im very glad too, the putrid smell of horse crap is grating on all the ships crews nerves. The Cavalry men cant take the sea and we cant take their beasts. It will be a fair trade.

I miss you and Abbel. I know how unfair this is, for you and her. I cannot express how much it hurts me also. Ill send money soon and Abbel a gift from New Timbuktu.

With all my love

[drake]

Well Sekong, my problem with this is that besides the AI being an issue, playing in the fashion you suggested strips away what makes the diplo game interesting. It's the interactivity between physical (well not physical, but you know what I mean) people that makes the game good. You should be able to negotiate with anyone at any any time that is appropriate. You start splitting up the group and any sense of chemistry that may have been established is gone. These games take a long time. A lot of hours, a lot of patience. That comes with the territory.

Besides, I like having a scheduled time to play. I play at scheduled times, because the rest of the week is my free time. I don't like the idea of casually just picking up a game. Especially a game of this magnitude. This game would work out just fine if we could start on time, end on time and keep our enthusiasm. I know it's not in the same league with a job in importance, but the punctuality and dedication must be there in this type of game, much like a job. If it's not there, the game crashes and burns, plain and simple.

So I think it goes without saying that I am completely against this idea. Really, if I was in a hurry, I would have played a different type of game.

[sekong]

!lol!
capo: if what you so called dipo was just sending silly mails arround, and threaten other nations, and even went into war with your neighber having peace treaty with you, then go kick yourself. Your DIPOaspect made me sick.

What I was looking for is FUN, peaceful-competion CIV2 game. While you accused others this and that, you were the first one that actually attacked others. Now you even send your pathetic troops in front of Mongol cities. They better leave Mongol's land next turn, or the supreme Mongol hordes will give you some color see see.

Mongol like to have dipo, but not with a bully like you. Even it's role-playing, we Mongol hordes don't like devil-role-playing. Be advised to switch to a more peaceful DIPO-strategy, you will bring more fun to all, including yourself.

True Peace if you want.

RAY KING

[sekong]

The One who brought Republic of Mongol become Supreme power of the world, the fourth son of Great Genghis Khan, the man named as Tuo Lei, which means "Bring the Thunder".

Here he comes.

He is not tall. He does not looks strong. He smiles like a girl. He laughs like a kid. He looks normal when he is among his people. But what he decide, no one could stop. When he is angry, the ocean would cry, the sky would change the color. He is the new leader of proud Mongol hordes.


[to be continue]

[The Capo]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Prometheus on 04-03-2001 10:48 PM</font>
To the Adriatic’s:

By no means has the Chinese Empire held the Adriatic’s in ill will, however we believe that you have taken everything out of proportion. Our Empire has had some hard times with the civil war and reestablishing of the monarchy. So let us put your fears to rest, as most of you messages have gotten lost in the mail so to speak.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I understand, but then again why is it that when we asked for an explaination intially you declined to even tell us to wait, you didn't even respond? How much respect is that?

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
Now honestly good King of the Adriatic’s do you think so little of your army patrols that one of the Pacific Pact could ever place a city in the middle of your empire. Please sir, this is silly, the people of the Chinese embassy have were joking around with one another when such a message was sent due to the outbreak of civil war. Taking it seriously as you did makes us wonder if you are using any excuse to go to war with our Mongol neibors, especially with such a ludicrous statement as the one that was sent.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Again all we asked for was an explaination. Seriously, I am sure any leader here would agree with me on this note: If you recieve a message who's source was China speaking to another nation advising them at what could occur if they settle in your territory, and then the Chinese refuse to answer any question with even a simple word you would take heed and prepare for the worst! Would you not? Then I doubt your cred as a leader.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
Next you accuse the Chinese empire of a military build up. I do not know whether to laugh or cry at such a statement, the Chinese empire has less military units than it does cities. If that is a military build up I am the King of Zululand.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I don't believe I ever accused the Chinese of an intelligent military build-up, just a build-up, and that has occured regardless of how much tact, or lake thereof, was used.

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
Now we comes the issue of the Mongol city in Chinese territories, we understand the Adriatic’s concern but as the Chinese can not settle as fast as other powers due to fewer recourses we asked the Mongols to build a city or two in our territory and then gift it to us to help us settle our land.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Why then wasn't the city turned over? The city has a unit in it, which means at least one turn was used to develop it, and since its size exceeds 1 (According to reports from other nations) it must have been around for a while. So again, if this was its purpose why wasn't the city turned over to the Chinese?

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
As you can see these our just misunderstandings due to our communications being out of sorts as the new monarchy cemented its control. We ask you to re-recognize our claims and to withdraw your troops from Mongolian territory.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

We have addressed our situation with Mongolia, we have explained to them that we will not remove the troops until the issue was resolved, even before it was resolved and at the behest of Khan War4Ever we agreed that we are overreacting and will remove our troops, then we were threatened by Mongolia after the agreement was made and in front of the entire world, that is quite a bit of disrespect as far as I am concerned. If this pathetic Lou Tei wishes to know what it is to tussle with Adriatics, then we shall too show him a new color... that color will be red.

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
Sincerely,

King Prometheus

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

[The Capo]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>&lt;font size=1&gt;Originally posted by sekong on 04-04-2001 01:19 AM&lt;/font&gt;
!lol!
capo: if what you so called dipo was just sending silly mails arround, and threaten other nations, and even went into war with your neighber having peace treaty with you, then go kick yourself. Your DIPOaspect made me sick.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

This is a game Sekong, this isn't personal its just for fun, you need to chill.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
What I was looking for is FUN, peaceful-competion CIV2 game. While you accused others this and that, you were the first one that actually attacked others. Now you even send your pathetic troops in front of Mongol cities. They better leave Mongol's land next turn, or the supreme Mongol hordes will give you some color see see.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Sekong, we made an agreement already that I would withdrawl, if it pleases you to flex your muslces after the agreement has been signed and run your mouth and look tough, then do that. But as you SHOULD KNOW not only are the Adriatics more than willing to verbally accomodate you and your weak and infantile words, but we are more than willing to accomodate your meak little army. Hey, at least your mortician business will skyrocket.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
Mongol like to have dipo, but not with a bully like you. Even it's role-playing, we Mongol hordes don't like devil-role-playing. Be advised to switch to a more peaceful DIPO-strategy, you will bring more fun to all, including yourself.

True Peace if you want.

RAY KING
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I want peace, but not at the expense of me bending over for you! I am a sovreign state and can do what I wish until someone forces me to do otherwise. I recieved a message that my territory might be compramised by a foreign entity, I asked everyone in the West who all swore they had nothing to do with it outright, when I asked everyone in the East I was ignored, ignored, ig-freakin-nored.

How respectful is that? You didn't think that I would just sit back and let it happen just because you are bigger than me did you? Pah! I back down from nothing, if I ever did I would have failed my people and my title of King of the Adriatic League.

Peace be with you, and may God have mercy on your soul... because I won't.


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by The Capo (edited April 04, 2001).]</font>

[GNGSpam]

"Come in, come in, do tell, what is your worry young fellow?" so says the King

"News from The New World sire, specifically the WAF (West Atlantic Fleet), the 4th Horse Cavalry has put to port and is headed west" so says the peasent messanger known as Jabber

"Very good, very boring too, dont bore me with such minor details, I have advisor, you tell the advisors, they tell me, really now, im trying to enjoy dinner" so says the Annoyed King

"Most apologies" so says the peasent messanger hurrying out the door

"Nonna Kareem, tell me my wise military advisor, give me a summary, what does our military look like?" so says the Thoughtful King

"Our modernization plan has gone exceptionally well. We sport, by our estimation, the largest fighting Navy in the world, composed of squadrons of Warships, divided into 2 fleets. We have replaced all the old Tribal Warrior clans from the forrest with Pikeman, recruited from the fields, and built up 2 divisions of 4 regiments each of Legionnaires, 1 division in the New World, one in the Homeland. We also have modernized most of our Auxilary Cavalry to Elephants, we even have some in the New World." so says the Brilliant Military Advisor

"Really? We brought Elephants to the New World eh? I would think that would be quite the feat of arms, was it worth it?" so says the Intrigued King

"Very much so, we are quite confident of our success in the New World. With our ability to fortify cities so quickly and turn out Pikeman just as quickly, defensively we are a juggernaut, and with many Elephant squads and a full division of Legionaire's, we are more then prepared" so says the Proud Military Advisor

"Very good, very good, do you want some dates and grapes? They are actually from Israel believe it or not, those people do turn out some of the finest luxury items and foods, but come now, less talking more eating. LILLE! Bring us some fresh fruit, especially dates and grapes." so says the Gluttonous King

[Prometheus]

We ask again that the Adriatic’s reconsider their position toward the Chinese Territorial claim in the new world. We will try to address the concerns of the Adriatic’s in hopes that they will continue to respect our claims.

The Adriatic’s main concern seems to be that the city of Bergen which is the city in Chinese North American Territory is an extension of Mongol territory in what was recognized as Chinese Territory this however is not the case as it was built just this last year (turn). The great king of the Mongols is going to turn the city over to the Chinese control (but due to the shortness of the game and abrupt end we never got to it).
You must trust us the Chinese will never give away any of its land to anyone including its allies we have to little of it already.

Next the Adriatic’s seem to think that we are not pursuing our land claim in America. The Chinese are still a small and poor nation and we don’t have the resource to send over to America as fast as the Adriatic’s, Mongols and the other nations. As of next session with the Mongol city that will be gifted we will have 4 cities in the new world as we have more recourses being sent on the way.

If the Adriatic’s still officially withdraw their recognition of our land claims we will do the same for Adriatic Land claims in the new world as well if they decide not to honor ours. The Australians, Mongols, Zulus, and Mali still recognize our claims and we shall still honor theirs. However we understand the Adriatic’s concern and if they would like they may have the Mali send a scout or one of your own up the great river through Chinese territory that combines with the Mississippi, at the top is the city of Bergen. There they may see if the Mongol city has been turned over to the Chinese or not. The choice is yours we shall await your answer.

[The Capo]

The issue here is not whether or not Adriatic Land Claims will be honored because (1) We have no official claim. (2) We do have a general claim, but no nation has chosen to honor this claim, despite the fact that many nations have, these nations have rescinded on numerous occasions, and therefore we are settling where we wish. If there is some Adriatic claim that people honor I would like to see it, becuase so far NOBODY has recognized any Adriatic claim except for the Mali, but the problem there is that the land they honor is already under Adriatic Control. How can you offer to take something that doesn't exist?

I said we would reconsider our position upon review, and that is what you have done, my major issue here is that until I get an official agreement from the Pacific Pact telling me what they see as my territory I can not continue to honor the Chinese claim. It is unfair to me in every sense of the word.

In order for me to restore my initial agreement as it concerns the Chinese claim I expect the following in return:
1) The Mongols and Chinese to follow through with what they say is territory (Bergen I assume) that is to be ceded to China.
2) An official document from the Pacific Pact recognizing the Adriatic Claim in the Americas and promising not to violate this claim.
3) An apology from the Mongols for attempting to shed a negative light upon our people by making two-faced comments and out right hiding the true facts.

When these three parameters are met, we will agree to the original Chinese land grant, we feel it would be ignorant of us to just agree to China's claim when her allies are treating the Adriatic League in such a manner of discourse. As stated before: We feel the plight of China is a horrible one, but it was one suffered at the hands of her allies, and to expect us to answer for their actions is ludicrous. So if those are our requirements, and we will leave the original Chinese claim unfettered, however if they are not met we will continue to stand by our position.

Thank you,

King Ferdinand of Habsburg

[Prometheus]

When the Adriatic’s so many years ago agreed to recognize our claim we recognized their claim to east of the Mississippi and south of the Rio Grande, not including Baja California. This is the claim we speak of honoring. The Mongols have no business in that area so I have no doubt they will honor it but the Australians will have to speak for themselves for you see my good King Ferdinand I can not speak for the Australians in any business just because we are allies we are not one entity were one can speak for the other. So you can demand that the Pacific Pact recognizes your claim and an apology from the Mongol Empire but we will not pressure our allies to this because the issue of Chinese territory is between the Chinese and the Adriatic Empires not between the Adriatic and the Pacific Pact.

We had an agreement and we expect you to honor that agreement but as we are beginning to see that will be impossible to expect. The Adriatic Empire has longed talked about not letting its self be bullied around by foreign powers such as the Mongols and the Mali well China is a nation just like the Adriatic League and will not let the Adriatic Empire bully us around. We are surprised that with your talk about being bullied around you would decide to pick on the weakest nation on the globe.

If we do not agree as the independent nations of China and the Adriatic League to honor the agreement we had from before then we will move our Army into patrolling position along the Mississippi and will attack any unit sent by the Adriatic League that’s encroaching on Chinese Territory. We wish not for a war and urge the Adriatic Empire to reconsider their position.

[The Capo]

(Message sent from the Adriatic King Ferdinand of Habsburg)

TO: Foreign Affairs Attache
FROM: Royal House of Habsburg Minister of Foreign Affairs and Military Cosimo D'Medici.

It has come to the attention of the House of Habsburg and its most Catholic and Regal head Ferdinand that the world has again gone ablaze in political talk and threats; it should be known by now that the House of Habsburg would rather attend to matters with action rather than words however he sees fit at this point in time to inform the world of the Adriatic Stance upon such matters as it would be more of a peaceful means to ending such an infantile discussion.

As to the situation between the United Adriatic Kingdoms and the Chinese; the King feels that centuries ago the Australian Republic made a bid for a substantial Chinese land grant in the Americas. Despite a heavy heart towards the matter his wise Majesty King Ferdinand relented and agreed to honor the Chinese land grant, with the assumption that the lands would (a) be used solely by the Chinese for they were in a situation of duress and needed a means of quick expansion (b) not be used for any purpose towards the welfare of the Mongolian, Australian, Zulu, Mali, Israeli, and Adriatic States (c) were essential to the growth of the Chinese State. Upon centuries of honoring the land grant under these pretenses the Adriatic Kingdom respected the land grant. However it has come to the attention of the Foreign Minister attache in Timbuktu that not only have these three pretenses been since made null and void, but that this has been in occurance long before the Adriatic Government had discovered. In response King Ferdinand has lifted his agreement to honor the land grant, and will thus inform his people that this land is free land for settlement as it was recognized prior to the Adriatic agreement to honor its ownership by the Chinese Republic. We understand the Chinese arguments, and they make sense, however regardless we feel that the grant was not persued in a prompt manner, we fell that some of the grant has been annexed to the Mongolian Republic and further feel that as China has made no steps to extend their foothold within this realm that they deem the area less important than originally indicated. It is under the credulence of these facts that we must withdrawl our agreement to honor this land grant at this point in time, we are as always open for discussion on the matter with any nation that wishes for the grant to remain in complete Chinese control, however at this point we can not possibly allow that to happen under the current circumstances.

As to the situation regarding Adriatic Soldiers in Mongolian Territory; it is a known fact that not very long ago a message from the Chinese was made public indicating that an unnamed source intended on settling within the Adriatic Realm, more specifically as the message lineated "in Adriatic territory." While his Catholic Majesty Ferdinand of Habsburg may have overreacted to the situation, he does not regret the manner in which he spoke of the situation initially, he had every right to be angry as any other nation does including China. Anyone who wishes to compramise the sovreignity of a nation in such a blatant manner is an enemy to all nations, including his own. Regardless of this, Adriatic officials began an investigation into the matter, first we aksed our peace-neighbors in the west, Israel swore they had no involvement and as they are our allies with which we share a demilitarized zone we believed them, the Mali who we hold in the highest regard despite the latest military conflicts stated that they would never hide behind secrecy and had no interest whatsoever in Adriatic territory our relationship within the West Indies indicates this as well, the Zulus promised us that they are neutral and as in the past they indicated they had no interest in "expanding beyond their boundries" were also trusted and we felt it was not them. However, upon our investigation into the matter on the other side of the world we recieved a quite different response; rather we recieved NO RESPONSE. No nation who is a member state of the Pacific Pact honored our inquiries, nobody spoke a single word either way, not even an omission to answer was proffered; just silence. When the Adriatic King Ferdinand discovered this, he was quite stricken by fear of an invasion, he promptly ordered his troops (who at the time were battling the vile Republicans) unto the borders of the Eastern states and again asked the nations to please answer the questions or at least humor them. Still no answer. Therefore the King made the decision as to who he believed it was that might be planning on settling within Adriatic lands, therefore he moved his troops into Mongolia and asked for an answer. As time progressed the Mongols eventually answered and said that they would not name the culprit, but promised any threat of it occuring was over. Therefore the King decided to move his garrisons off of Mongolian territory as it was improper and quite overreactive. This was indicated to Mongolia who said they appreciated the decision. It was only discovered later that Mongolia had threatened to destroy the troops if they were not removed despite the fact that the removal had already begun. Mongolia is now attempting to flex their muscle at our expense. They are putting us in a precarious position: (a) we could continue the retreat and let Mongolia make it seem as if their mere words prompted this removal (b) we could leave the troops there and give Mongolia the excuse to claim we are imperialists (c) we could show Mongolia what happens when people decide to degrade our people. Neither one is a favorable outcome for anybody in this situation, we feel we are nearly forced to retaliate, however we wish to indicate to every nation that this is not our intent and if this can be resolved without any type of aggression it would be favorable to any type of conflict.

We hope that every nation in the world finds it proper to contact the Adriatic League directly when a conflict arises with us, rather than to bring the case in front of other nations in the manner that the Mongols chose. While we respect the Mongolian people and their Government, we find it disheartening that such a nation could persue such means and pass them off as peaceful and justified. We want egality, we wish for peace and believe that it can be achieved as long as the politicking that occurs due to the situation on the planet would cease and facts are considered rather than political ties. We are the friends and soldiers of peace, but this does not mean we will bow to tyranny in order to achieve this end.

Respectfully yours,
Lord Cosimo D'Medici

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 04-04-2001 09:41 AM</font>
This is a game Sekong, this isn't personal its just for fun, you need to chill.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by The Capo (edited April 04, 2001).]</font>
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

The borders between role-playing and respecting each other as real people can get blurred.
You can't just say you respect the other players, you have to behave in a clear fashion that also respects our differences as individuals.

A diplo game is by definition 'diplomatic' - see CapTVK's faq on diplo games.

Persistent bullying by one player and bad jokes about quitting is NOT conducive to having a FUN diplo-game.
I like to have colourful personalities in the game and love some conflict but consistent global antaganism is NOT diplo style. Usually you'd have a few border disputes and maybe a major war or two in diplo-games but generally it is understood that aggressors get short shrift from the rest of the world combined.

We will see....


------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[The Capo]

In my defense I'd like to say the following; I am not bullying any nation around, I have yet to threaten any nation with military action for any reason that would not permit military action.

The Chinese have not been picked on. Our stance is that many years, nay centuries ago the Pacific Pact made a bid to the entire world for a Chinese Land Grant. They made the bid as one entity, one solid core of nations that stood as one. Whether they like to admit it or not this is inherently an ominous way to go about peace, to ally into a powerful conglomorate and basically force other nations to grant the whims and wishes of this Pact.

I find it quite troubling that the Australians suggested an international intervention against me, all I have done is said that if the Pacific Pact won't recognize my land claims, why should I recognize theirs? Whether they like it or not they are one entity, they are one orginzation, that is the nature of their alliance and if they wish to deny that forthright I find it troubling that they think that is the case. Why would I accept a land claim made by the collective alliance, but at the same time not recieve my land claim from that very same collective alliance? That is my issue, further the very same collective alliance was discussing settlement in my territory! What do they expect from me but some type of response? I did respond, and asked for one in return so I can allay my fears, however I recieved none! What is a nation to do when put in such a situation?

It is quite clear that yet again, I ask a question. Instead of recieving an answer I get a vague statement from allies, statements that indicate hostilities. It is quite unfair to label me an aggressor when I have threatened no war, when I have done nothing but support equality in all land claims and grants.

The Adriatic League does not wish for war, that is the last solution we deem fit for this problem. However the Pacific Pact is unwilling to make any compramises, any changes to their party line, they are a stubborn entity, but they are one entity. You signed an alliance, you live with your allies and you perish with your allies. You are not three seperate nations anymore but one alliance, one entity. I am quite certain that if I found my soldiers staring accross the battlefield they would not only gaze upon the garrisons of China, but of Australia and Mongolia as well. So spare me your "We are not one entity" rhetoric, I am no fool.

I continue to require my terms, I want an apology from Mongolia for attempting to despariage my troops and my reputation in the manner they have done, I want my land claim to be honored not only by China but by Mongolia and Australia as well, and I want the Mongol city encraoching on Chinese territory to be annexed to China at once. If my terms are not accepted or met it is simple, I honor no land claims of Mongolia, China or Australia.

To the nations of Israel, the Mali, and the Zulu I wish to hold a conference in Jerusalem regarding this situation. I feel I have sufficient grounds to hold one and discuss the sitatuion of the Pacific Pact in the Americas. I wish to allay any fears and answer any questions regarding the current situation, and believe that in an open forum we can put an end to any worries from any nation in the West, I would further appreciate it if a member state of the Pacific Pact would attend and represent the alliance to us as well.

Thank you for your time,

King Ferdinand of Habsburg

[drake]

I second that

[The Capo]

(a message arrives at the various capitals of the various nations)

TO: Foreign Affairs Minister
FROM: Gepetto Bompinsiero, Minister of Territory

Upon request of various nations, this message will outline the claim that the Adriatic League wants in the Americas. If this claims is accepted by the various nations on the planet, their claims will be respected as well. This is the map of the territory that the Adriatic League requires, the land which is covered in white is territory that has already been accounted for and is either under Adriatic control or otherwise unavailable to parties who do not currently control it (just in case its too big or whatever):
<center>
</center>

As you can see the territory we ask for is quite modest with respect to other claims, and we can achieve this quite realistically, we ask that all members of the Pacific Pact honor this claim, when this occurs we will agian honor the Chinese Land Grant.

Thank you,

G. Bompinsiero