UNITS v3.0 (hosted by technophile)

[loinburger]

Well folks, here's the 2.0 Units list. If I've forgotten something, let me know. Continue Units discussion HERE.

Also, just to let you know, I did not include "Civilization specific units" in the Units summary. Two reasons--one, very little was discussed regarding this on the Units thread, and two, the Civilizations thread has gone over this very well. If anybody wants to start a discussion on Samurai and other Civilization specific units on this thread, please go first to the Civilizations thread summary and transplant what they've got there over here. Otherwise, we'll leave the Civ-specific units to the Civilizations thread.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by technophile (edited August 31, 1999).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by technophile (edited August 31, 1999).]</font>

[loinburger]

CONTRIBUTORS:
JT3, CivMike, FinnishGuy, Mo, Darkstarr, DarthVeda, Flavor Dave, Mr. Bigglesworth, Ecce Homo, Atahualpa, Sieve Too, crusher, Mikel, E, Alexander’s Horse, Icedan, Theben, Eggman, Jakester, Diodorus Sicilus, Gregurabi, Scooter, Mind Elemental, Chowlett, The Brain, Depp, Jon Miller, korn 469, wesley32, Rambler2, Tornado7, Doc, jpk, technophile, Jimmy, CivPerson, cloneodo, Jpetroski, Iceman88888888, ember, Stefu, Harel

This is Version 2 and Version 1 combined. Related theads are Combat and Movement + Supply (some of which is located in Economics).

There are several different views as to how attack and defense should be implemented: Att/Def, LASS, and CITV some, and there are other modifiers which have been proposed. The Combat thread has the explanations and discussions on these different combat systems. For the sake of simplicity I will use the Att/Def combat as employed in SMAC for all examples, unless otherwise stated.

You will note that this “summary” is much larger than the previous one. This is due partly to the fact that Diodorus Sicilus has provided (cringe) me with several books to summarize, partly to the fact that Firaxis wants more specific examples in List 2.0 than in List 1.0, and mostly to the fact that I’m extremely verbose.

1. Special Units

1.1. Unique Units

1.1.1 President/Emperor:
One suggestion is that this unit will have to be sent to peace conferences and UN summits. Another suggestion is that this unit will a. be able to establish cities, b. carry “crown jewels (to replace the “throne room”), c. act like the capital (wherever the leader is, that’s where you’ll have your government center), d. increase morale of your soldiers if in the radius of a battle, and e. when your last city falls, the game does not end until your leader bites the dust.

1.1.2 Famous Generals:
Would randomly appear, and would correspond to actual generals from history (adding a little brain candy to the game). Would confer Att/Def/Morale bonuses on units it is stacked with, and could also confer bonuses on units within a certain radius. Furthermore, if different unit orders can be issued (see Combat Thread), then famous generals can give bonuses in the form of combat they are expert in. General units would have 0 ATT and 0 DEF.

1.1.3. Famous Scientists:
These would confer a science bonus to the city they reside in and would also correspond to actual scientists in history. Alternatively, famous scientists could give a universal bonus in the field they are experts in (Pasteur would give a research bonus to all biological research, for example).

1.1.4. Famous Entertainers:
Like scientists, except they give luxuries bonuses instead of research bonuses.

1.1.5. Lifespan:
Two different lifespan ideas are the variable lifespan and the fixed lifespan. The variable lifespan would employ the disease model proposed in the Miscellaneous thread to determine the life expectancy of Unique units: this would explain why Alexander the Great would die in only a few turns while Grant would live a full life. Eventually, the famous unit is going to succumb to disease. A different proposal for determining lifespan is to use the life expectancy information from Demographics. The proposal for a fixed lifespan is that each famous unit only live for, say, 20 turns.

1.1.6. Premature Death:
Two ways for a unit to die prematurely: assassination and KIA.

1.1.6a. Assassination:
It has been pointed out in discussion that very few generals have been assassinated in history. Therefore, assassinations of generals and all other units should only be possible of a Ninja or similar wonder is built, and even then the wonder will become obsolete with time.

1.1.6b. Killed In Action:
If you’re leading an army into battle, you might get shot/stabbed/bombed. Therefore, every time a famous general goes into battle there is a chance that he/she will die. The odds will decrease as time progresses, since ancient commanders would lead from the front while modern commanders usually lead from behind the supply trains. To keep Generals on equal terms with Scientists and Entertainers, every time a city with a Famous Scientist to Entertainer is attacked there is a chance that the famous unit will die.

1.1.7. Defection:
If you mess around with you SE choices too much, your famous units might defect. Also, if you capture an enemy city with a famous unit in it, and the famous unit survives the conquest, the famous unit might try to defect back to its home Civ. Famous generals can go solo on occasion, meaning that they will lead a revolution against you and start their own splinter Civ which must either be integrated back into your own Civ, eradicated, or which will replace your own Civ.

1.1.8. DISCUSSION OF FAMOUS UNITS:
Thoughts on famous units fall into two categories. The first category states that famous units will provide brain candy to the game, as well as a more personalized touch and greater enjoyment. The second category states that employing famous units will facilitate far too much micromanagement, and that if any famous units are used at all they should be as “invisible influences” (such as a Famous General “unit” that will increase the morale of all of your troops in one section of your Civ).
A compromise has been proposed to seal this schism, which is that using famous units will be a personal choice made by each person playing the game. If someone chooses to use famous units, then Famous Generals, Entertainers, Scientists, and whatnot will each be a separate unit icon which can be moved about and which have 0 ATT and 0 DEF. On the other hand, if someone chooses to turn off famous units, then all Famous Generals, Entertainers, and Scientists will act as “invisible influences” on that person’s Civ, or an area of that person’s Civ. In the second option the famous units might still die in battle or from sitting in a swamp for too long, but the chance has been reduced since the famous unit is in an indeterminate location. So a person opting to take the route with more micromanagement will glean more bonuses out of his or her famous units, but those units also have a greater chance of dying in battle. The person opting to take the route with less micromanagement cannot fully employ his or her famous units (as they are locked into position and cannot be moved), but there is less of a chance of the famous unit dying prematurely.
Employing this compromise would make it almost impossible to assassinate units.

1.2. Commanding Units:
These are different from Famous Generals in that they do not randomly appear but instead can be built. They are meant to signify the level of organization used by your army. The types of commanders available will change as communication and transportation technology increases.
Further, there has been a suggestion that there be RCE’s (Random Combat Events) that could drastically change the outcome of a fight. Roll a 100 sided dice—if a 1 comes up, disaster for the defender, if a 100 comes up, disaster for the attacker, with varying other outcomes possible (the bulk of which will not affect combat). This is much like the system used in Return to Krondor. The presence of a Commander (particularly a Famous General) would add a modifier to the RCE die roll, making disaster less likely for the side of the commander.

1.2.1. Ancient Commanders:
Strategos: Can command up to 5 units of 2 different types in a stack.
Imperators: Can command up to 7 units of 3 different types in a stack.

1.2.2. Medieval Commanders:
Constable: Can command up to 10 units of 4 different types in a stack.

1.2.3. Modern Commanders:
General: Can command up to 12 units of 5 different types in a stack.
Field Marshall: Can command up to 15 units of 6 different types in a stack.

1.2.4. STAFFS:
With the proper tech advances you can add a Staff to your commander, which effectively doubles the commander’s abilities but which are extremely expensive to build and upkeep. A suggested Wonder of the World is the Great General Staff (first used in Germany, late 19th century) which would reduce training time+costs for a Staff and would also reduce upkeep.

1.3. Engineers + Settlers (note—there is a lot of overlap with Terrain + Terrain Improvements here):

1.3.1. Engineers vs. Public Works:
Having a terrain improvement system based strictly on Public Works as in C:CTP will be extremely limiting as terrain improvements cannot be built in remote regions, an especially bad prospect if Supply Rovers as in SMAC are used. Engineers should be used along with Public Works or else to the exclusion of Public Works.

1.3.2. Mines:
If mines (the kind that go boom) are used, Engineers should receive a bonus chance to remove them. See below for more on mines.

1.3.3. Sea Engineers:
You should be able to put Terrain Improvements on the sea.

1.3.4. Repairs:
Engineers should be able to repair units away from home. Units might be able to “auto-repair” like in SMAC, but an Engineer could speed up the repairs process and/or let the unit return to full HP (instead of 80% HP as in SMAC). Being able to repair a unit might also be an added capability put on in the Design Workshop.

1.4. Spies:

1.4.1. Steal Map:
Spies should be able to steal an enemy’s map—not reveal unit locations on the map, just map out the terrain improvements and cities of the enemy. If you try to steal an enemy’s tech and he has no tech that you do not have, then you instead steal his map.

1.4.2. Spy Missions:
Instead of using spies as units, there should be spy missions. Reduces micromanagement.

1.4.3. Counter-Terrorist Agent:
Anti-spy unit.

1.4.4. Assassinations:
If assassinations were to take place in Civ III, it would be simpler if spies were given the option of receiving an “assassination” special ability from the units workshop, for a hefty price, instead of having an entirely separate “assassin” unit. See Unique Units for more on assassination.

1.4.5. Defections:
Spies have consciences too. If you have your spy do too much dirty work, he might defect so that you won’t be able to push him around anymore. Very little discussion on this idea.

1.4.6. Tourist/Traveller:
These are “alternative” ideas for spies. A Tourist is a unit that you can send on vacation in order to gather information on a city. A Traveller is a unit controlled by the computer that randomly visits cities and Civs and provides information on other cities and Civs through hearsay. Killing either of these units would constitute a diplomatic penalty.
It has been suggested that these units should instead be random events, the frequency and nature of which can be determined by your SE choices (free societies will leak information more readily than societies behind an iron curtain, partly because it seems like nobody wants to visit Romania).

1.4.7. Attach order:
This is to fix the problem of umlimited units passing through enemy ZOC's, thanks to spies first going into that square. A spy can "attach" itself to a friendly unit (ONE unit, not a stack, although multiple spies can be stacked together to herd multiple units in a stack) which would allow that unit to travel freely through enemy ZOC's. However, the spy cannot do anything until the next turn--the attachment takes up it's special action.

1.5. Nukes:

1.5.1. Different Sized Nukes:
Two levels: Strategic and Tactical (and, if the tech is right, Planet Buster).

1.5.1a. Tactical Nukes can be dropped by Bombers that have been upgraded to be capable of being fitted out by nukes. They can also be launched from the back of trucks, trains, subs, aircraft carriers, etc. They can also be carried by spies with proper miniaturization upgrades.

1.5.1b. Strategic Nukes can only be launched from cities and Missile Silos (terrain improvement). These are the ICBM variety—extremely expensive, but with an incredible range (can reach ANY map location).

1.5.2. Fallout:
The bigger the nuke, the more fallout you get from it. Nuclear fallout causes Nuclear Pollution, which is different from Industrial Pollution in that engineers cannot completely remove it (using present tech levels). The range of nuclear fallout should be represented by the blast and should be used to deter using nukes. Tactical Nukes, for example, might have a fallout range of 10-12 terrain tiles downwind (not every square will be polluted, of course) and 3-4 tiles upwind. Strategic Nukes will cause fallout for a range of 40-50 tiles downwind and 10-15 upwind.

1.5.3. MAD:
Mutually Assured Destruction. Helps to assure that nobody but NOBODY will use nukes unless they are insane or desperate. If you are nuked, you can use MAD to preset cities that your own Strategic Nukes will target. These nukes will be launched THE SAME TURN that you are nuked, with the firing delay varying according to how close to the enemy city your nuke is. This means that your enemy cannot simply wipe you out in one turn with a massive nuclear barrage, because he will be nuked in return before he even finishes his turn! By the time your enemy has fallen behind enough that nuking you would be beneficial despite your retaliatory capabilities, you will either have captured most or all of his nukes or else you will have had ample time to build an SDI defense.
This concept can also be employed with Chemical Weapons, Biological Weapons, or even conventional weapons, although for play balance MAD should not be able to be abused.
Sometimes you won't know who attacked you, particularly if SMAC's spy system is used (meaning that sometimes you won't identify the nationality of the spy, or you might even mis-identify the spy). If this is the case then MAD will be ineffective.

1.5.4. Missile Silos:
Terrain improvement where you can house your Strategic Nukes.

1.5.5. Missile Bunkers:
Underground shaft where you can hide your troops in the case of a nuclear strike. Tactical Nukes have a 25% chance of destroying Bunkers while Strategic Nukes have a 50% chance of destroying Bunkers. If a Bunker is destroyed, the units it houses are destroyed. Otherwise, a Bunker will protect units from the effects of Nuclear Pollution. Missile Bunkers do not aid in conventional defense.

1.5.6. City Destruction:
Nukes will destroy and/or damage buildings in a city. The amount of damage is determined by how close the city is to ground zero and the size of the nuke.

1.5.7. Diplomatic Penalties:
I assume there will be diplomatic penalties associated with using nukes. That’s nice. See the Diplomacy Thread for details, because you aren’t getting them here.

1.5.8. Nuke Option:
In Civ II the rules.txt could be modified in order to turn any chassis into a nuke, but this option was taken out in SMAC. It should be put back in Civ III.

1.6. Mines (the kind that go “boom”)
There was little to no cohesion in the debate on this topic. One group of people felt that minefields were out of the scope of the game, being more on the tactical level than the strategic or even operational level. It has also been pointed out by members of this group that mines are implicitly included in several portions of the game, such as Fortifications and Pillaging. Why have a special minefield unit/terrain improvement if mines are already a part of fortifications, and why mine a road if you can just pillage it?
The other group supported mines, feeling that they could be upgraded from the tactical level to the strategic/operational level of warfare by simply increasing the number of mines put in a terrain tile by 1000%. Members of this group also felt that mines were useful as “fire and forget” weapons, for although they are implicitly included in fortifications the fact remains that the fortifications must be manned or else the minefield does little good.
The details that follow assume that mines and minefields are used in Civ III. This is not meant to detract from the arguments of Group 1 but is included as a hypothetical model.

1.6.1. Terrain Improvements:
One group in favor of mines wanted them to be Terrain Improvements and not Units. Engineers, or perhaps any military unit, would be able to create a “minefield” TI.

1.6.2. Units:
The other group in favor of mines wanted mines to be Units which would have zero movement, zero ATT, and 8 DEF. When built they could be placed on any square controlled by you, and would disappear afterwards.

1.6.3. Sea Mines:
It stands to reason that if mines are placed underground they can also be placed underwater.

1.6.4. Terrain Destruction:
If a mine goes off in a square, it should have a chance of destroying a TI in that square. Some are in favor of the mine being able to destroy any TI in the square, others are in favor of the mine only being able to destroy movement related TI’s.

1.6.5. Loss of Mobility:
If a unit is stuck in a minefield, any damage done to that unit by enemy air units will be increased. If air units only cause “bombardment” damage ala SMAC, instead of the type of damage that they regularly caused in Civ II, then attacking a unit in a minefield will give the air unit a chance to actually destroy the unit.

1.6.6. Diplomatic Penalties:
Many have proposed that putting minefields in a city radius should cause unhappiness in that city as the farmers begin to dig up the mines and blow themselves up.

1.6.7. Using up Mines:
Mines should only be allowed to “attack” a few times. Numbers proposed have ranged from 1 time to 5 times.

1.6.8. Forgetting Where You Buried The Things:
Landmarks change, ground shifts, and maps get lost. Some have proposed that landmines always do half damage to friendly units, while sea mines always do full damage. Others have proposed that land and sea mines always do full damage no matter who steps on them, and that the location of minefields should be hidden from both friends and enemies. Still others have proposed that sea mines always cause half damage while landmines never cause damage to friendly units, but that friendly units suffer from a “loss of mobility” as described above.

1.6.9. Placing/Removing Mines:
See Engineers also. Most posters have stated that they felt that a special “mine-laying” or “mine-sweeping” type of unit would be too tedious to have to build. Instead, Engineers, or perhaps all military units, should be able to lay/sweep mines. Engineers would have the best chance of doing this. Tech level would be a factor in the success rate. Also, there could be a special unit ability which would increase the chances that a unit would successfully defuse a minefield.

1.7. Misc Special Units:
These are special units that didn’t require much explanation and weren’t screwy enough to warrant being placed in “radical ideas.”

1.7.1. Mercenaries:
Some folks are in favor of having mercenaries. Related to this is a suggestion that you should be able to lease your units out to an allie. Barbarian civs could be paid to be mercenaries, and enemy insurgents could be funded in order to increase the number of guerrillas that attack the enemy.

1.7.2. Explorers:
One of the proposals regarding units is that most units should only exist during wartime. Obviously, this would make exploration difficult. An idea which would solve this problem is that explorers will appear on their own, with the frequency and type of explorer dependant on your SE choices. For example:
Early explorers would be Warrior/Hunters. The faster your Civ grows in population, the more of these you’d get, since they’d have to go out and find more food.
When Trade is “invented” the Warrior/Hunters will be replaced by Merchant/Adventurers, who are looking for new resources to trade. Or, if Trade isn’t your forte, you’d have Prophet/Priests pop up at random, trying to spread the faith, or else a Conquistador will come along trying to spread the faith and get rich at the same time. Your SE choices will determine which type(s) of explorers you get. Merchants will spread trade routes, Priests will spread public relations and culture, and Conquistadors will spread military conquest and probably some disease.

1.7.3. Guerilla:
Ignores ZOC’s. Has a weak attack, but receives a bonus for concealment (see Combat) as well as pillaging. Like the Partisan (see below) a Guerilla cannot use its ZOC bonus to aid friendly units. Unlike the Partisan, the Guerilla cannot "secure" a square. Guerillas are controlled by the AI and not the Civs (although they may defect and become "partisans" which WOULD be controlled by the civs). A Guerilla can be created by a. a city being taken over, b. unhappiness in a city, c. funds from other civs (aiding the insurgency), and d. training by Special Forces units (see "special abilities" in Land Units below). Note that guerillas will vanish when unhappiness or funds are cut.

1.7.4. Refugee:
Created when a city is captured. Number created depends on destructiveness of invading army as well as extent of differences in SE choices between the conquering and conquered Civs. Refugees have 0 ATT, 0 DEF, and 1 MOV. Refugees will try to travel to a city friendly to the Civ they just left, and will confer 1 population point to that city. They are controlled by the computer and can move through any unit. Attacking a unit with a Refugee on the same square may destroy the Refugee, which would carry a slight diplomatic penalty with it. Refugees mooch off the land, so if you’ve got too many camping in a terrain tile you cannot farm or mine in that tile because the refugees have eaten all the food and stripped all the resources.

1.7.5. Merchant Fleet:
Caravans at sea.

1.7.6. Patriots/Reservists:
Depending on your SE choices and how much money you dedicate towards “reserves”, a certain percentage of your population will show up at “reservists” or “patriots” when a city is attacked. These units will be hideously weak, often armed with only clubs and pitchforks in the olden days and maybe a few handguns in modern times, but they still serve their purpose.

1.7.7. Red Cross/Ambulance:
Can carry up to 2 human (i.e. can’t carry two tanks) back to a city where those units can be healed. 0 ATT, 0 DEF, 4 MOV, treats all terrain as roads. If attacked while loaded up with wounded soldiers a diplomatic penalty will be conferred to the offending nation.

1.7.8. Partisans:
Partisans can do unlimited pillaging to a terrain during each turn. They also receive a concealment + retreat bonus. At present they ignore ZOC's. They should continue to do this, but friendly units should not be able to exploit this ability. However, Partisans can be issued a special order, "Secure", which would take the secured square out of the enemy's ZOC, allowing friendly units to pass through it.

1.7.9. Missionary/Propogandist:
Helps create happiness + prevent enemy spying, confers a minor boost to morale to your soldiers, can help alter the culture of an enemy so that he will be pressured to change his social engineering choices to more closely reflect yours, making it more difficult for him to attack you. Certain government types (Capitalism, Communism, Fundamentalism) would get more use out of a Propogandist than other government types. Would help to simulate a cold war.

1.7.10. Air Force Squad:
Mobile airbase, of sorts. x2 to Air Defense, x2 to Vision, can carry 2 aircraft. This is like a bunch of soldiers that wander around with flashlights illuminating runways for Harriers.

1.7.11. C2 Node:
This idea corresponds with Leaders somewhat, but is more radical. The idea is that orders must be transmitted through C2 (communication) nodes, the efficiency of which would determine the effectiveness of your soldier’s combat. Examples of C2 nodes through the ages would be towers (for fire signals), horse carriers, telegraph, phone, radio, and satellite. Two possibilities for this: the farther your troops get from your border, the lower their ATT and DEF since they are less well organized. Second possibility: if a C2 node is captured/destroyed, you will temporarily lose control of the soldiers it relayed messages to (they will try to make their way back to your border), but their position will be made known to the enemy that took the node.

1.7.12. Decoys:
Cheap units that can be cranked out quickly. Zero ATT, zero DEF, requires no support, looks like a real unit (unless enemy’s scouting ability identifies it as a decoy). Can make a molehill look like a mountain. If only one unit is normally destroyed each turn in a stack, this rule will not hold true for decoys—if a decoy is discovered it is essentially destroyed, so there is a % chance each turn that a stack holding a decoy is attacked that the decoy will be destroyed (i.e. discovered).

1.7.13. Chemical/Biological Weapons:
Poor man’s nukes. May cause plagues (see Misc.). Can be dropped from aircraft + fired from artillery with proper upgrades, and may also be carried by spies. Carries diplomatic penalties with it. Not nearly as powerful as nukes, and do not cause pollution (chemical weapons usually dissipate within minutes, days, or weeks, not years).

1.7.14. Supply Convoy:
Ala SMAC. Note, however, that on the Terrain thread it has been suggested that a TI replace this unit idea.

1.7.15. Mobile Radar Jammer:
Ala Command and Conquer. Prevents spy planes and spy satellites from peeking in on your business.

1.7.16. Mobile SDI Defense:
Just what it sounds like.

1.7.17. Spy Satellite:
Keeps a constant watch over an area. Can be moved later if your opponent builds a Radar Jammer and screws you up.


2. Land Units

2.1. The List of Proposed Land Units (excluding Special Units):
Cannonades: Between Cannon and Howitzer
Longbowmen: Advanced Archers
Train Artillery: Massive cannons mounted on railroads. Can only move on tracks.
Swordsmen: Between Legions and Musketeers
Frogmen: (3,3,3) Land and Sea unit.
Hovercraft: (5,6,4) Upgraded Land and Sea unit.
Bradley APC: (0,6,3), carries 6 units, treats all terrain like roads, cannot carry mech. units
5-Ton truck (0,5,3), carries 4 units, cannot carry mech. units
Train (0,4,1) Can only move on railroad tracks, can carry 8 units, mech or not
Mobile Rocket Launcher
Rangers
Trench Troops (only high DEF when fortified)
Land to air missiles (battlefield use only, ONLY offensive ONLY planes).
Patriot missiles (battlefield and carrier use only, must fortify to activate, ONLY defensive against ONLY missiles for 5 x 5 area around it)
Land to land missiles (kind of like a SCUD) that would be launched via trucks--the graphic would indicate that. You would fire it by hitting a key, with a range of 10, and then it would have to "reload" somehow)

2.2. DESIGN WORKSHOP:
Most of what follows is regarding the Design Workshop. The categories for things being put on a unit are Chassis, Weapons, Armor, and Special Capabilities.

2.3. Chassises:
Each Chassis, unless otherwise noted, can carry one weapon type, one armor type, and one Special Capability.

2.3.1. Man:
A bunch of men (or women) on foot.

2.3.2. Horse:
The ridden animal. Faster, etc.

2.3.3. Camel:
More suited to desert terrain. Not as good at combat, but less susceptible to heat stroke + dehydration + other fun stuff.

2.3.4. Elephant:
+50% to ATT for an extra cost (can carry more riders), cannot have a Special Capability, are 2x as effective against horse-mounted units (elephants scare the living daylights out of horses), armor is only 50% effective on an Elephant (since there’s so much to cover up), are not available to everyone (if you don’t have elephants on your land, you can’t use them as a Chassis), and they are more vulnerable to gunpowder type weapons.

2.3.5. Chariot:
There were actually 3 types of chariot in history (light, medium, heavy), but for simplicity there will probably be only one used in Civ III. Can receive +50% to ATT for extra money (can carry multiple riders), only 50% armor factor, requires Wheel and Domestication (although not necessarily the horse).

2.3.6. Motorized:
Truck, motorcycle, armored car, whatever. Weapon, armor, and Special Capabilities depend on size—the more you spend, the more powerful and less mobile it becomes. Requires Internal Combustion engine.

2.3.7. Tanks, APC’s, etc.
Weapon, armor, and Special Capabilities depend on size—the more you spend, the more powerful and less mobile it becomes, and also make the vehicle more vulnerable (if the thing can’t move, how are you going to defend it?) Requires Internal Combustion, Suspension Systems, and Continuous Track.

2.4. Offensive Weapons:

2.4.1. Spear/War Club/Axe:
Carried by Man or Mounted (chariot, horse, camel, elephant) chassis.

2.4.2. Sword:
Basic slashing sword, requires Bronze Working, carried by Man or Mounted although not as effective when carried by mounted.

2.4.3. Thrusting Spear:
Requires Bronze Working, needed for Phalanx. When carried by Mounted unit becomes Mounted Lancer, which might become Knight.

2.4.4. Iron Sword:
Long slashing or short stabbing, required for Legion, carried by Man or Mounted.

2.4.5. Pattern Sword:
Advanced folded forge sword, very expensive, requires Wrought Iron or Blast Furnace, required for Samurai.

2.4.6. Pike:
Extremely long two-handed thrusting spear, requires Iron Working and used by Pike Phalanx (used by Alexander the Great), carried by Man.

2.4.7. Bow:
Early pre-4000 B.C. bow, used by Man and Mounted both. Ranged weapon.

2.4.8. Composite Bow:
Horn-bone-sinew recurved bow or central Asia, more powerful than Bow. Can be carried by Man or Mounted. Requires Domestication, Nomad Civilization type, and over 50% plains, desert, or grassland in your city radius. If you had forests, you wouldn’t have made these.

2.4.9. Long Bow:
Requires Steel (for arrow points). Only carried by Man.

2.4.10 Lance:
Requires Steel and Stirrups. Carried by Mounted. Powerful.

2.4.11. Catapult:
Hurls rocks, Man chassis only. Requires Mathematics.

2.4.12. Bombard:
Early cannon—first real use of gunpowder, has special chassis (carriage and limber) which is extremely slow, but can also be mounted on Motorized or Mechanized chassis.

2.4.13. Musket:
Carried by Man or Mounted, less effective if mounted.

2.4.14. Cannon:
Requires Gunpowder, Ballistics, Bronze Casting. Man chassis.

2.4.15. Horse Artillery:
Requires Cannon and Tactics: Mobility. Less attack and more expensive than Cannon, but faster.

2.4.16. Rifle:
Requires Percussion Caps. Carried by Man or Mounted.

2.4.17. Machine Gun:
Requires Machine Tools and Smokeless Powder. Carried by Man, Motorized, or Mechanized.

2.4.18. Artillery:
Requires Machine Tools, Hydraulics, and Exterior Ballistics. Motorized (weaker) or Mechanized.

2.4.19. Rocket:
Not the nuclear kind—more like a Bazooka or Multiple Rocket Launcher. Requires Rocketry. Mounted, Motorized, Mechanized.

2.4.20. Ghost Laser:
Laser that makes you a ghost. Really powerful. Can only be carried by Ghost Laser chassis. Requires Ghost Laser tech and Super Discombobulation tech.

2.5. Defensive Armor:

2.5.1. Scale Armor:
Requires Bronze Working. Carried by Foot or Mounted.

2.5.2. Mail Armor:
Requires Iron Working. Carried by Foot or Mounted. +50% improvement to DEF from Scale.

2.5.3. Plate Armor:
Require Wrought Iron. Carried by Foot or Mounted. +100% improvement to DEF from Scale.

2.5.4. Shields:
The above armor types could also have Shields mounted, which would increase defense from Ranged attacks by +50%.
Scale Armor: oval Pelta
Mail Armor: round Viking or Germanic
Plate Armor: Kite
Phalanx (special): large round Hoplon
Legion (special): Roman Scutum
NOTE: Shields don’t protect against Catapults and such, for obvious reasons.

2.5.5. Flak Jacket:
Requires Light Alloys. Modern infantry armor. Can sometimes stop bullets etc., not very good at stopping tank shells. Carried by Man or Mounted chassis.

2.5.6. Riveted Armor:
Requires Steel. Carried by Motorized or Mechanized. Add as much as you want—it will increase DEF and decrease MOV until it can’t be moved and could survive a nuke.

2.5.7. Welded Armor:
Requires Electric Arc Welding and Face Hardening. Carried by Motorized or Mechanized. Same quantity rule applies.

2.5.8. Composite Armor:
Requires Composite Materials. Carried by Motorized or Mechanized.

2.5.9. NOTE ON VEHICLE GRAPHICS:
Riveted armor: Boxy, studded with rivet heads.
Welded armor: rounded look, like WWII tanks.
Composite armor: angular, like modern tanks.

2.5.10. Ghost Armor:
Protects you from being a ghost. Requires Ghost Sciences and Phantasmagoria.

2.6. Special Capabilities:

2.6.1. Amphibious
Applicable to modern forces only, reduces ATT and DEF slightly.

2.6.2. Airborne:
Applicable to modern forces only, requires maximum weight limitations, may reduce ATT and DEF. (this is for air transport purposes).

2.6.3. Reconnaissance:
Applicable to all periods. Increases vision, maintenance. All Barbarian and Nomad Civs have this capability automatically.

2.6.4. Sapper:
Requires Flamethrowers, Special Explosives. Increased ATT against forts, fortifications, city walls, etc.

2.6.5. Night Vision:
Requires Laser, Imaging, Computer. Increases ATT, DEF, MOV.

2.6.6. Anti-Tank:
Requires Rockets, Monroe Effect Explosives. Increases ATT and DEF against Motorized and Mechanized chassis.

2.6.7. Alpine/Mountain/Jager:
Requires Military Skiing, Light Alloys, Special Explosives. All-terrain light infantry.

2.6.8. Ranger/Special Forces/SAS/Commando/etc.:
Requires Special Explosives, Light Alloys. Very expensive, very high maintenance. Man, Mounted, and Motorized only—no Mechanized. (extremely expensive if Motorized). Unit can perform some Spy actions, like ignore ZOC, destroy city wall, poison water, whatnot. Note, SOME spy actions.

2.6.9. Cluster Bombs:
Used by Bombard units. Creates “frag mine” field in target square which attacks any unit passing through it with ATT 1 or 2 (up to 5 units, then disappears). Any unit caught in the frag mine field suffers double damage from Bombers and Artillery. Units with this special ability can still use a normal attack.

2.6.10. SAM:
Surface to Air Missile capable. Doubles defense against air units.

2.6.11. Anti-Personnel:
Increased ATT and DEF against Man. Land and Air only.

2.6.12. Brigade:
Reduces HP by 1/3 and may reduce ATT and/or DEF. Reduces cost of unit. With proper tech advances, Brigades may combine with each other to form Divisions. Any chassis may Brigade.

2.6.13. Heavy:
ATT/DEF bonus of +1, +20% HP, increased cost, increased size (for transport purposes). Slightly redundant if you can put as many weapons and as much armor as you want on a Motor/Mech unit, but this would be a logical addition for Man/Mounted chassis.

2.6.14. Cavalry Contingent:
Bonus against cavalry. Semi-redundant with Elephants.

2.6.15. Nomadic:
Mobile city.

2.6.16. Immune to Terrain Type:
If terrain causes damage to units (such as mountains/swamps to chariots), then Immunity will allow given unit to move unimpeded through target terrain.

2.6.17. No Support Needed:
Available to all chassis but MUST be Brigade unit.

2.6.18. Camouflage:
Unit may conceal at hidden base (i.e. a hidden air base can conceal a camouflaged air unit). Brigaded unit may conceal anywhere.

2.6.19. Single Shot:
Unit is destroyed after use. Mostly for customizability (for making your own mines that go “boom” and such).

2.6.20. May Engage Outside of Domain (LASS only, see Combat):

2.6.21. Nuke Defense:
Unit becomes resistant to radiation (Nuclear pollution) and has a chance of surviving a nuclear blast. Extremely expensive and doesn’t always work.


3. Air Units

3.1. The list of proposed Air Units (excluding Special Units):
Crop Plague Plane: Destroys farms and irrigation
Biplane: Drops paratroopers
AWAC: Like spy plane, but shorter range, gives DEF bonus to any air units within 4 square radius.
Anti-Sub Helicopter: x2 ATT against subs, increased detection range against subs
Jets that can carry cruise missiles or laser guided bombs.
A radar device of some sort.
Helicopter Transport: (0,6,10) carries 4 units, can load/unload in any square.
C-130 Plane (0,5,10) carries 2 units
C-141 Jet (0,6,15) carries 4 units
C-5 Jet (0,8,20) carries 8 units
Balloon (0,1,10) has Recon
Blimb (0,1,15) has Recon
Seisina Plane (0,1,20) has Recon
SR-71 (0,1,30) has Recon
Apache Attack helicopter upgrade
Jets that carry 2 missiles
Triplane, then Biplane, then Fighter
Modern non-stealth fighter
Modern non-stealth bomber
Strategic Bombers: destroys or disables city improvements. Redundant if bombardment already accomplishes this task (see Combat).
Fighter-Bomber: 80 shields, ATT of 8, weaker intercept abilities, could attack and return on the same turn. Redundant if Bombers are allowed to attack and return on the same turn in Civ III.

3.2. The Argument on Bombers:

3.2.1. Bombers should not be allowed to destroy a unit—they should only be allowed to do “bombardment” damage. This is more realistic and would make it so bombers cannot be abused.

3.2.2. That would kill the purpose to having bombers. They are already weak enough since they can’t attack and return on the same turn. If you want realism, play two turns and die of old age.

3.2.3. Bombers should cause a “diminishing returns” on the damage they cause, so that the weaker an enemy unit is the less damage will be caused by the bombing run. There will still be a possibility, however, that the enemy unit will be destroyed. This is especially true if Cluster Bombs or Mine Fields are used, which would increase the abilities of bombers.

3.2.4. The Consensus: Bombers should be able to attack and return on the same turn. As for the rest, the arguments are in front of you, and there is no consensus.

*******Below are two similar ideas dealing with the design workshop, one proposed by Theben, the other by Diodorus Sicilus. I have attempted to integrate these ideas together, but at some points they were at odds with each other and so I have included both sets of ideas at such times. Just don’t be surprised if the summary contradicts itself a little more than usual here.

3.3. Form:

3.3.1. Type:
Type is I or II. I is the Bomber. II is the Fighter.

3.3.2. Range:
Short-range aircraft are capable of making multiple attacks in a turn. Long-range aircraft sacrifice payload for fuel. If used in short range, the ATT of long-range aircraft will be increased.

3.3.3. Speed:
Speed is separate from Range, since air missions will be fought within one turn. It is implied in ATT/DEF.

3.3.4. Chassis:

3.3.4a. Wood&Wire:
Biplane configuration. Limited in capacity, can mount no more than 2 powerplants.

3.3.4b. Metal Monocoque:
WWII style. Can mount up to 4 powerplants and greater capacity. Requires Light Alloy, which requires Hydroelectricity.

3.3.4c. Composite Alloy:
Modern style. Can mount up to 4 powerplants. Requires Composite Materials processing.

3.3.4d. Spacefaring. Satellites and possibly spacecraft. Possibly a special ability instead of a unique chassis.

3.3.5. Propulsion:
Propulsion will increase depending on the airframe used—the more modern the airframe, the more effective the propulsion.

3.3.5a. Internal combustion propulsion. All airframes.

3.3.5b. Jet propulsion. Metal Monocoque and Composite Alloy only. Unmanned, it is a Cruise Missile.

3.3.5c. Rocket propulsion. Metal Monocoque and Composite Alloy only. Unmanned, it is an ICBM.

3.3.6. Air to Air Armament:
Note that ATT and DEF are largely defined by Airframe and Propulsion as well. All weapons have a weight factor associated with them, and if your airplane gets too heavy, then your ATT and DEF associated with Airframe and Propulsion will drop.

3.3.6a. Machineguns (only weapon that can be put on Wood&Wire
3.3.6b. Machine Cannon
3.3.6c. Guided Missiles
3.3.6d. Infrared Homing Missiles
3.3.6e. RADAR Homing Missiles
3.3.6f. Beam Riding Missiles
3.3.6g. Ghost Laser—composite airframe only. See Land Units for description.

3.3.7. Air to Ground Armament:
Most bombs come in different sizes, from 500 lbs. to 2000 lbs. or so.

3.3.7a. Iron Bombs—any airframe
3.3.7b. Guided Bombs—requires Guidance Systems
3.3.7c. Air to Ground Rockets—any airframe
3.3.7d. Guided Missiles—requires Guidance Systems
3.3.7e. “Smart” Ordinance—requires Computers, Miniaturization, (AI?)

***NOTE ON GROUND ORDNANCE: With the proper tech advances and the correct unit upgrades (particularly for Chem, Bio, and Nuke weapons) you will have the option of filling your bombs with whatever you want, be it explosive, napalm, cluster munitions, chemical weapons, biological weapons, nuclear weapons, or propoganda leaflets.

3.4. Options + Add-ons:
If only a single airframe is used (as one suggestion has been), then Biplane, Advanced Plane, and Jet are special options. Older options cannot attack newer options, but newer options can attack older ones. Heavy Bomber is an option which can be put on a Bomber to give it certain abilities for combat missions. Other options and add-ons are:

3.4.1. RADAR:
Comes in three flavors: Ground Attack, Air Attack, and Air Defense.

3.4.2. Naval Attack:
Attacking ships from the air normally lowers the probability of success, as it takes special training. This will eliminate those penalties.

3.4.3. Anti-Submarine:
Very heavy, but greatly helps an aircraft in attacking a sub.

3.4.4. Air Drop:
Allows aircraft to drop paratroopers and supplies.

3.4.5. ECM:
Increases DEF against SAM attacks.

3.4.6. Stealth:
Composite Alloy airframe only. Increases DEF against missiles and negates enemy RADAR effects.

3.4.7. Nuclear Capable:
Unit can drop nukes.

3.4.8. Chemical and Biological Weapons Capable:
Unit can drop Biological and Chemical weapons.

3.4.9. Heavy:
Planes: Become bombers only (cannot attack air, but still receive air defense), can do some transporting, receives longer range, cannot land on a carrier (also see Combat). Helicopters: Increased size (for carrier transport), increased range, increased cargo capacity. Missiles: Become intercontinental and/or receive +50% ATT, increased size for transportation purposes. Semi-redundant ability if unit workshop as proposed above us used.

3.5. Combat Missions:

3.5.1. Bombard:
Air unit bombards a specific unit. Heavy Bomber damages all units in square regardless of defenses (although city and fort units take less damage). May reduce city population if attacking a city. Cannot bombard a concealed unit. Biplanes have only this mission and support/intercept available.

3.5.2. Scorched Earth:
Attacks buildings and population of city. May attempt to target specific city structures for greater risk of failure. In country, pillages terrain. Laser-targeting and perhaps other tech advances (like satellite mapping) will increase chance of success. Heavy Bomber does more damage than regular aircraft.

3.5.3. Interdict:
Heavy Bombers only. Target one or more squares: any unit (friend or foe) in or attempting to pass through squares is attacked by the bomber and expends triple MP’s to enter and leave. The more squares that are selected, the less effective the interdiction. Interdiction causes less damage than bombardment.

3.5.4. Air Support/Intercept:
Air unit acts as artillery in combat as support for ground forces, during the attack or defense. Range of this action is ½ the Range of the aircraft. Fighters may be put on Intercept duty (like Sentry duty) and would attack any enemy aircraft that entered their range. Humans would be allowed to save their intercept until later. Fighters may also be sent to intercept in the same square where the bombers are supporting, which would help reduce enemy interception capability. Effectiveness of this order is determined by present level of Communications and Tactical tech advances.

3.5.5. Carpet Bombing:
Attacks ONE unit in a square with intent to destroy it. (note that if Heavy Bombers are used then either Bombing Runs or Bombardment will have to be modified). Unit attacked is semi-random (who gets attacked is based partly on which unit is easiest to spot), and effectiveness of attack is partly determined by how easy it is to spot the unit which is attacked. In order of hardest to spot + destroy to easiest: Spy/Scout/Diplomat, Settler/Engineer, Infantry, Caravan/Freight, Cavalry/Mounted unit, Mech/Armor unit.

3.5.6. Strategic Bombing:
Attacks a specific unit, a square with TI’s, or a city. Only available with certain tech advances, such as Targeting Radar or Photo Reconnaissance. Additional tech advances, such as Satellite Mapping and Laser-Targeting, make Strategic Bombing more likely to succeed.

3.5.7. Air Transport:
Air unit moves ground units around.

3.5.8. Cluster Bombing:
Actually an upgrade made to the bombs and not the aircraft. See Special Abilities in Land Units.

3.6. Helicopters:
These fellas are funny, as they are kind of air units and are kind of ground units, in that they don’t have to return to base every turn. However, they are included under air units because they have been air units in the past (SMAC design workshop) and because they are capable of flying many of the missions allowed by aircraft, notably Interdict and Support.
Once the Helicopter Advance comes around, there can be several other advances which follow and increase the usefulness of Helicopters:

3.6.1. Medevac:
Helps turn permanent casualties into temporary casualties by bringing wounded troops back for treatment before they can die. Any stack with a Medevac Helicopter has its Hit Points increased by +50%.

3.6.2. Air Assault:

3.6.3. Sea Kings:
Special Capability for surface naval units. Provides Reconnaissance (double vision range) for naval unit, +25% ATT for guns and missiles, and +50% DEF against cruise missiles. If added to an AntiSubmarine ship, it doubles ATT on submarines. Extremely heavy, though.


4. Naval Units

4.1. List of Naval Units:
U-Boat (early, expires)
Submarine (later, never expires)
Seawolf (later, more powerful, never expires)
Old aircraft carrier
New aircraft carrier
Old battleship
New battleship

4.2. Range:
Naval units can only stay at sea for a certain length of time, and must return to a “base” periodically depending on their range. This makes early explorations easy, except when exploring some particularly nasty environments.

4.2.1. Ancient Ships and Sailing Ships:
Unit must stop at a friendly city, or beside any square containing a agricultural TI (farm, irrigation), plains, grassland, jungle, or forest.

4.2.2. Powered Ships:
Unit must stop at a friendly city as a refueling station.

4.3. Chassis:
Wood and iron hulls get pounded to pieces by the ocean if they’re too large. Steel hulls can be any size, but of course that increases their cost, slows them down, and makes them easy targets.

4.3.1. Wood Plank Hull:
Requires Wood Working. Available early.

4.3.2. Wood Clinker-Built Hull:
Requires Joinery (medieval) Sturdier than above, larger vessels and longer sea ranges.

4.3.3. Iron Hull:
Requires Wrought Iron, Blast Furnaces, etc.

4.3.4. Steel Hull:
Requires Bessemer or Open Hearth Steelmaking. Unlimited size.

4.3.5. Types:
There are two alternative hulls for each of the above types—speed (long and narrow) which has a high ATT and DEF but little to no range and cargo capacity (early on, at least), and cargo (fat and wide) which has very low ATT and DEF (early on, at least) but great range and cargo capacity.

4.3.6. Special:

4.3.6a. Catamaran:
Higher cargo and range than ancient hulls, less than modern hulls. Should be given some serious penalties to keep game balance.

4.3.6b. Pressure Hull:
For Submarines. Pretty much requires Steel Hulls.

4.4. Propulsion:

4.4.1. Oars:
Available anytime.

4.4.2. Sweeps:
Requires Geometry or Ancient Naval Architecture. Really, really big oars. Used on galleys and polyremes.

4.4.3. Sails:
Requires Clothmaking or something.

4.4.4. Advanced Sails:
Clipper ships and whatnot. Requires Mechanics and some Geometry.

4.4.5. Steam:
Steam engine on a ship. Requires Steam Engine.

4.4.6. Steam Turbine:
Semi-modern naval propulsion. Requires Steel, Special Alloys, and of course Steam Engine.

4.4.7. Diesel-Electric:
Requires Electricity, Generator/Motor, Diesel. Used on submarines before nuclear reactors.

4.4.8. Nuclear:
Requires Nuclear Propulsion or Nuclear Power advance.

4.5. Weapons:
Attacking is all close combat early on, until siege engines are mounted on ships or until the invention of Gunpowder.

4.5.1. Ram:
Requires Bronze Working. Cannot be mounted on Catamarans. Low ATT when on a Sailing vessel. NO ATT when enemy has Cannon.

4.5.2. Boarding:
Depends on the offensive weapons of your ground units.

4.5.3. Catapults and Greek Fire (upgrade to Sea Catapults only):
Requires Mathematics.

4.5.4. Cannon:
Requires Cannon, Gunpowder, and maybe Naval Truck/Carriage.
Note that fast ships usually can’t carry Catapults or Cannon.

4.5.5. Artillery:
Requires same advances as ground artillery.

4.5.6. Torpedoes:
Requires Smokeless Powder and Steam Engine.

4.5.7. Depth Charges and Homing Charges:
Developed after Submarine.

4.5.8. Missiles:
Same as Rockets or Cruise Missiles.

4.5.9. NOTE ON MODERN WEAPONS:
Modern naval bombardment has a massive range, firing as far as most short-range aircraft. Civ III should take this into account.

4.6. Defense:

4.6.1. Cataphract:
Requires Wood Working or Joinery. Wooden hulls only.

4.6.2. Iron Armor:
Requires Wrought Iron. Wooden or Iron hulls only.

4.6.3. Nickel-Steel Armor:
Requires Steel and Special Alloys. Iron or Steel hulls only.

4.6.4. Compartmentalization:
Requires Ancient Naval Architecture. Any hull but Catamaran.

4.6.5. ECM:
Requires Electronics, Computers. Any hull type.

4.6.6. Point Defense Weapons—Anitaircraft/Anitship:
Requires Special Alloys, Computers, Miniaturization.

4.6.7. Each hull has a built-in DEF factor. A small, fast ship is harder to hit than a large slow one.

4.7. Special Capabilities:

4.7.1. Antiaircraft:
Radar spotters, guns, and/or missiles. Requires same advances as these.

4.7.2. AntiSubmarine:
SONAR, MAD, possibly depth charges and homing torpedoes.

4.7.3. Amphibious:
For supporting landing troops.

4.7.4. Container Cargo:
Requires Trade and Pottery or Wooden Barrels. Increases speed and efficiency of freight/trade handling.

4.7.5. Aircraft Handling:
Flight deck, Hanger deck, and whatnot. Requires Advanced Flight.

4.7.6. Upgrading:
Hulls can never change from Speed to Cargo or vice-versa. Nothing can be made into a Pressure Hull.

4.7.7. Heavy:
Wooden hull: +1 ATT, +50% cargo capacity. Iron/Steel hull: +2 ATT (+1 air if applicable), +1HP, +50% cargo.

5. General/Radical/Misc Ideas

These ideas are, for the most part, unrelated to each other. I just needed a place to put them. DO NOT overlook this section. Many of the ideas that follow are excellent, but they didn’t belong anywhere else.

5.1. Unit Form/Theory:

5.1.1. Sense Range:
Detection range for a unit. Changes with techs and special abilities like Reconnaissance.

5.1.2. Units consist of fractions of army types. For example, one type of unit might consist of 300 warriors and 200 bowmen, and you could call this type of unit “the flying monkeys”. Problem: you can already do this by stacking units ala C:CTP.

5.1.3. You should be able to design your own units as in the Unit Workshop.

5.1.4. You should be able to upgrade units, but be semi-realistic about it—you’re not going to suddenly have iron shields for the phalanx that’s 10,000 miles away. But at the same time don’t be picky, or nothing will get upgraded.

5.1.5. Have units automatically upgrade themselves, up to a certain point and at a moderately slow speed.

5.1.6. Units upgrade somewhat when they defeat a higher tech unit, assuming that unit was of the same type (so what if your Archers shot down a squadron of F-16’s, what in heck are they supposed to do with the scrap?)

5.1.7. Units have semi-random ATT/DEF values. For example, a Rifleman might have DEF anywhere between 4 and 6. You don’t really know until you build it, or unless you scout out the enemy pretty well. Adds a greater element of chance to the game.

5.1.8. Upgrades are not automatic, they require investment. The project might be a resounding success with higher ATT/DEF/MOV and a lower production cost, or it might be a miserable failure with lowered ATT/DEF/MOV and a higher production cost.

5.1.9. Each unit has a size/mass rating, which determines how many of them can be crammed on a Transport.

5.2. Building Units:

5.2.1. Some units require special city facilities, for example Knights would require Stables and Nukes would require a Missile Silo and an Advanced Weapons Facility.

5.2.2. Recruit instead of build units. Build the weapons in one city and raise population to fight in another. Problems: micromanagement, requires large population in order to fight a war which puts the AI at a disadvantage (the AI does not take advantage of “we love” days and therefore winds up with much less population).

5.2.3. Many tech advances, such as Doctine: Flexibility or The Legion would increase ATT, DEF, and MOV for a unit by allowing for a new military formation. Even if you’ve got Iron working, for instance, you still can’t make a Legion until you have the military theory down. Perhaps Formation could be a part of a unit. This would also allow for more incremental unit upgrades.

5.2.4. It should require population to create a unit. Problem: the same as 5.2.2, the AI is at a disadvantage. Solution: fix the AI. Problem: easier said than done. Alternate solution: Create Soldier Specialists, Specialists essentially produce nothing but spend their time supporting your soldiers. Problem: The AI is still at a disadvantage, and Soldier Specialists could cause micromanagement nightmares. Final Consensus: Nothing agreed upon.

5.2.5. You can create a Brigade variation of a unit that has lowered HP and ATT/DEF, but which takes less time + money + support than the real thing.

5.2.6. You can prolong the build time of a unit in order to confer additional experience on it. See Experience below.

5.3. Experience:

5.3.1. Do away with “morale” and replace it with “experience.” Morale is a factor that varies from day to day usually. Experience is a factor that carries much more permanence with it.

5.3.2. Have there be 4 levels of experience:

5.3.2a. Raw/Green/Untrained: People that you pick off the street and throw into battle.

5.3.2b. Trained/Drilled: Soldiers out of basic training. The regulars. For some Civs, such as for all Barbarian and Nomad Civs, and for militaristic Civs like the Spartans, all soldiers start out like this. Some troop types that require training (Phalanxes, Legions, Musketeers, modern Combined Arms) must be at this level at least or else suffer SEVERE penalties (-50% to ATT and DEF at least), although such troops would then gain experience very quickly.

5.3.2c. Veteran/Experienced: The hardened troops that have seen a lot of combat, or else have been very well trained (for a lot of cash).

5.3.2d. Elite/Guards: The best of the best of the best. Very hard to reach this level and very expensive to maintain (see below). Examples in history: Caesar’s 10th Legion, Napoleon’s Old Guard, Alexander’s Agema, Germany’s Gross Deutchland (WW II), 82nd Airborne.

5.3.3. Have units lose experience over time if they’re not fighting. Represents the fact that the unit isn’t living forever, and also the fact that the unit is becoming fat and lazy from its life of ease. Money can be spent on continued training to avoid this loss of experience, but such training is very expensive to maintain, particularly for Elite/Guard status troops. Troops will rarely lose experience below Trained/Drilled.

5.3.4. Experience is hard to get and counts for a lot. Units with higher experience levels gain more hit points than units with less experience: example, Raw = 2/3 HP, Trained = full HP, Veteran = 1.5x HP, Elite = 2x HP. Also, the benefits to ATT and DEF gained from experience increase exponentially, so that a few Elites can kick the collective buttocks of a whole slew of Raws. Remember though that experience costs a lot to maintain and achieve, so such bonuses are worthwhile.

5.3.5. Certain city improvements will be required to automatically train troops towards the next experience level. City improvements include:
Ancient: Field of Mars or Gymnasium.
Medieval: Tourney.
Early Modern: Barracks.
Modern: Maneuver Area.
Instead of Barracks having to be replaced every time period, the respective city improvement can instead be upgraded, or else the old one can be kept for a –50% penalty to effectiveness.
Upgrading to Trained can be done automatically and requires the necessary advance as listed above. This upgrade can also come in the heat of battle.
Upgrading to Veteran can be done automatically at another improvement, Military Academy. This can only be done after the unit is already Trained, and this upgrade is more expensive to perform and maintain. This upgrade can also come in the heat of battle.
Upgrading to Elite CANNOT be done automatically. It requires that the unit be Veteran and spend additional time training at the Military Academy, and also requires actual combat experience. Without a Military Academy a unit cannot become Elite.
Automatic upgrades should be cheap enough that they are worthwhile to perform but shouldn’t be so cheap that every unit becomes a Veteran at the drop of a hat.

5.4. Customization:

5.4.1. Be able to modify the build costs of units.

5.4.2. Be able to modify the Unit Workshop if there is one, i.e. be capable of presetting what units are automatically built and when units become obsolete.

5.4.3. Allow AT LEAST 64 unit spaces in the workshop, as in SMAC. Units that are created are automatically saved to a file, and these units automatically become available when the appropriate tech is researched.

5.4.4. Provide multiple chassis types for easy customization (i.e. not just one type of horse chassis, but several unique horse chassis that are identical in all but appearance). This will allow for easy customization (if the Civ III graphics are too good homemade sprites will be almost impossible to make) and will help to distinguish units apart from one another.

5.5. Misc:

5.5.1. Be able to name and organize units/groups.

5.5.2. Have two options for some units, such as Regular Phalanx and Heavy Phalanx, which would cost twice as much and have twice the power (this is different than what is in the Options/Abilities for the different units above). Problem: why not just build two Regular Phalanxes?

5.5.3. “Religious” units that 1% of the posters liked:
The following religious units will “convert” cities and units, and will also create happiness in your cities.
Witch Doctor: The unit type you start out with.
Priest: Requires Mysticism.
Guru: Requires Polytheism.
Bishop: Requires Monotheism.
Prophet: Requires Fundamentalist government.
These units have a chance of wandering into cities and “converting” them, which is the same thing as the Spy and Diplomat ability “incite revolt” except that it’s free. Problem: Free? What, are you mad?

5.5.4. Provide additional unit sprites on the CD for ease in customization.

5.5.5. Ability to make your own unit flags.

5.5.6. Units can be taken “off alert” in order to reduce support costs on the unit while you don’t need them.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by technophile (edited September 28, 1999).]</font>

[Ecce Homo]

Thanks for the hard work.

1.5.3. - the M. A. D. concept:

This concept could be extended to non-nuclear armaments. If you possess modern means of communication, you should be able to preset aircraft, missiles and long-range artillery to bombard your enemy without having to wait for your turn.
Maybe this idea would fit better in COMBAT.

1.7.13. Bio/Chem Weapons
Spies should be able to carry these weapons, just like nukes but simpler.

3.3.7. You could be able to choose payload in the airbombs - propaganda leaflets, explosives, shrapnels, poison gas, modern chemical weapon, napalm, biological weapon or different kinds of nukes.

------------------
The best ideas are those that can be improved.
Ecce Homo

[The Brain]

What about the religious units becoming almost obsolete after Darwin's Voyage has been built, that would show the effect of people embracing evolution more than religion? Maybe having religious units in your city would greatly reduce the chance of the enemy religious unit converting the city and/or local units.

[loinburger]

Future Units:

I've noticed that there are few if any futuristic units, weapons, armor types, or special capabilities in the summary. The Ghost Laser and Ghost Armor that I threw in there are meant to be all-encompassing "futuristic" weapon and armor advances, but I was wondering if anybody had any other ideas, specific or general, for futuristic units which could find their way into Civ III. Of course these are purely speculative, as nobody knows for certain what year the game's going to end, and so they'll probably go in Misc. instead of Land/Sea/Air Units.

One thing to bear in mind: if your futuristic unit ideas require certain futuristic tech advances, post the tech ideas over in Technology where they belong under either "realistic future techs" or "not very realistic future techs", using your best judgement as to which one they belong to.

[Theben]

Clarification: The "nuke DEF" idea was closer to the "mobile SDI" idea than what was given. I should have said "all chassis" can have this option. Players will target locations away from cities so a mobile SDI is a good idea, but the cost and maintenance should be close to the city-based SDI, or have a lower % chance of successful defense, or else players will only build mobile SDI's.

Also the "nuke" option wasn't put in (in civ2 we had this option in the rules.txt but it isn't in SMAC).

Lastly the "heavy" option wasn't well detailed. I think this is important because the chassis receive different benefits from it.

[loinburger]

Theben:

Just clarifying some of what you just posted before I edit the summary. (I can't edit the one in the Summary Of/About the List forum, as I asked to have it locked, but I doubt that anybody reads that one anyway).

Nuke DEF: So with the addition of Mobile SDI to Miscellaneous Special Units, does this eliminate the need for Nuke DEF, or did you have something else in mind for Nuke DEF?

Nuke Option: What's the Nuke Option? I've never played Civ II, and nobody put Nuke Option in their posts, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you mean Single Shot (like missiles), Nuclear Capable (can drop nuclear bombs or launch nuclear cruise missiles), or is the Nuke Option something else entirely?

Heavy Option: Unclear on this. There were two Heavy Options that were proposed, one proposed by you and another proposed by some other folks. The other Heavy Option was that you can make a "Heavy Phalanx" instead of a "Regular Phalanx" for twice the cost and built time, but which would have twice the strength. I've included this, as well as the arguments against such an option. But I assume you are referring to the Heavy Option that you proposed, and I'm afraid to admit that I don't know what this Heavy Option is. I've put in Air Units what Heavy Bombers can do which Regular Bombers cannot (I have also made notes where your air model conflicted with Diodorus Sicilus's). I've also put in what Brigaded Units can do which Regular Units (less hit points, can combine arms with other brigades, cheaper, easier to conceal). But I haven't the foggiest idea how your Heavy Option affects other chassises.

Let me know what's up so that I can fix up the summary. No hurry, I think that Yin said that the list isn't heading out until October 1st.

[loinburger]

Ecce Homo:

Sorry for the delay. I've fixed up the places in the summary that needed fixing. Let me know if there are any further clarifications or suggestions.

[Theben]

Nuke DEF: You don't need it if the mobile SDI is used.

Nuke Option: You've never played civ2? In the rules.txt you could change the domain the unit operated in, and if you gave any unit an attack of 99 it became a nuke (and single-shot by default). Therefore a land, sea, or air unit could be a nuke. In SMAC the nukes are defaulted to missiles. Reality allows nukes to be delivered by any chassis.

Heavy: Check out my final LASS post, this is from it:

Heavy- Gives various bonuses/penalties to each unit type. Note that a unit may be both 'brigade' and 'heavy' at the same time:

• -Inf/Mount/Motor/Mech receive +1 to all domains they affect & +20% hp's. This also increases the size of the unit for transport purposes.
  
  -Wooden hull receives bonuses as above to sea, land also if it can affect it. Also +50% cargo capacity.
  
  - Iron/Steel hulls receive +2 STR to land & sea, +1 to air (if applicable), and +1 HP (i.e. 10 points). Also +50% cargo.
  
  - Planes become heavy bombers, and may not engage air (they can have air STR for defense). They get all benefits of heavy bombers as described by me elsewhere, and all penalties. Non-heavy bombers that do not engage air are strike bombers (though most of these had minimal fighter capability). In addition, heavy allows planes to be transports with a minimal cargo capacity (1 in civ2/SMAC). They also get a larger operational area than non-heavy planes (x2 distance). Heavy bombers may not land on carriers.
  
  - Airships & Heli's get increased range and the cargo capacity of heavy bombers (airships get x3 distance). Increased space on carriers.
  
  - Missiles become intercontinental, and/or receive +50% STR to its domain. They also take up more space in transports.
  
  - Satellites, spacecraft, who knows? Bonus to STR?

[Flavor Dave]

OK guys, long time, no write. I hope someone reads this post, I think it is a very good and useful idea. It addresses a couple of things I remembered being mentioned here before.

One of the problems in Civ II is that spies are too powerful. Another problem is the absurdity of ONE freakin' spy herding an INFINITE number of units thru an INFINITE number of enemy ZOCs. So, here's my idea.

1. Take away the power of spies and partisans to shepherd infinite troops thru infinite enemy ZOCs.
2. Give spies the further order, ATTACH, which allows that spy, for that turn, to move ONE unit thru an INFINITE number of enemy ZOCs. Once a spy is attached to a unit, it can't do anything else that turn, except go along for the ride.
3. Give partisans the order called SECURE (the tile), which allows an INFINITE number of units to go thru ONE enemy controlled tile.
4. (This part isn't really so important.) Partisans have attack 3, defend 4. But, to make this unit a little better, each city can have ONE partisan unit more than 3 squares away without causing unhappiness.

I think my idea adds strategy, b/c you're really going to have to think about your mix of troops, and have to think about how you're going to attack your next target.

Thoughts?

[loinburger]

Theben:

I edited your ideas in, and have told Yin that the summary's changed.

Flavor Dave:

I've also edited your idea into the summary. I had one question, though: for the Secure order issued to Partisans, the tile will only be secured so long as the partisans remain in the square, correct? Also, does the order take effect immediately, or is there a one-turn delay on it?

[Flavor Dave]

I had one question, though: for the Secure order issued to Partisans, the tile will only be secured so long as the partisans remain in the square, correct?

Correct

Also, does the order take effect immediately, or is there a one-turn delay on it?

I thought it should be immediate. Basically, I want to avoid the absurdity of ONE spy or partisan shuffling 20 howies up and down a rail line, one tile at a time, while making spies a little less potent. I had the idea of giving one of the "ignore ZOC" units the ability to help one unit thru infinite squares, and the other the ability to shepherd infinite units thru one square. I like the concept of the partisan, I think of it more as Special Forces. But there is very little use for them. I think making partisans more useful makes the game better. As it stands, you only have to think of how many alpines you need to build to mix in with your MIs (late game conquering). By doing this for partisans, you'll need to think a bit more.

It seemed more realistic for the spy to work for one unit, and the partisan for one tile.

We still need to fix the loophole by which a freight can be used to do this.

[Stefu]

Here's few thoughts of nukes...

First off, nukes shouldn't be units as we see them - they are built in cities with nuclear silos, and when you have made one, you can "launch" it to any city in the world. (At least if it is ICBM.) MAD is very good idea, and it should be in. Now to their effects. I think tht when nuke explodes it will instantly kill 75% of city population, destroy all the buildings and cause nuclear damage. There are three levels of nuclear damage.

1. MILD DAMAGE

All terrain improvements are destroyed. Food production is divided by three. Any unit going through gets 10% damage, unless it is rad resistant or airplane. Disease in nearby cities rises by 5% (cumulative). All trade routes going through are cancelled.

2. MEDIOCRE DAMAGE

All terrain improvements are destroyed. There is not any kind of production. Units going through get 50% damage, if they are rad resistant or airplanes it is 10% damage. Disease in nearby cities rises by 30% (cumulative) All trade routes are cancelled. For avery three mediocre damage squares in city's vicinity, one person dies in three turns.

3. HEAVY DAMAGE

All terrain improvements are destroyed. There isn't any kind of production. All units passing through die instantly. Heavy damage squares do same amount of harm as mediocre damage squares if in city's vicinity, if city is right on one it dies instantly.

In time, the nuclear damage lessens, and it can be fixed by Engineers. However, it is by all aspects mre serious than in former civs. If there is too much nukes exploded, there is Nuclear Winter. During Nuclear Winter, food production is halved.

[Flavor Dave]

Having nukes be so dominant is maybe a good idea for MP. But against the AI, if nukes were so devastating, it would mess the game up. I mean, the computer "wins" as long as you don't. As it is, when you get good, the AIs all ally against you. So, let's move ahead to late in the game, and let's say you're trying to win the space race. Some AI will demand money from you, and if you don't give it, they'll declare war, and a tank will mosey up to one of your cities. So you destroy the tank, right? And then all of the AIs allies declare war against you. We've all seen it.

If you make nukes this powerful, at this point in the game, you are in deep trouble. So, it will become impossible to win the space race, as a practical matter, unless you have gotten to the point that you can get to the laser before the AIs can build the Manhattan Project. From my experience, that's a pretty high level of play. It can be done, sure--but who will have the patience of perfecting their perfectionist technique, wading thru all of those games only to see your chance of winning demolished by nukes?

IMO, this proposal's practical effect would force players who are just trying to get a handle on deity to all become warmongers, since the only way to win before the almighty nukes ruin your day is to conquer, leave the enemy with insufficient resources to wage a nuclear war.

I've seen alot of proposals that state nukes are too weak, it isn't "realistic." That's true, but I feel pretty strongly that if nukes were much stronger, the game won't work as well as it does.

I had an awesome civ once, and, just for the heck of it, I used a spy to plant a nuclear device against someone who had sneak attacked me about a million times. My spy succeeded--and my reputation became just horrible. I'm not talking about what the F3 screen said, I'm saying that the AIs launched so many nukes, indiscriminately, that I had global warming, despite a veritable army of engineers.

[Mo]

Thats why there is the mutual assurd destruction. That if you build some nukes, they will atomatically attack the enemy as soon as he has launched one. This would create a giant nuke war where any civ involved would suffer greatly. This should deter the computer from using nukes all the time. In civ2 nukes were far too weak and the computer used them all the time, which isn't very realistic.

[Flavor Dave]

"This should deter the computer from using nukes all the time."

Well, maybe it's different for you, b/c of how you play or something, but the AI needs no excuse to nuke me. I've come to realize that when you get to modern (artillery) times, you have to make a decision: either hunker down in how ever many cities you have, and build the spaceship, or you have to get serious about conquest. Not necessarily to the point that you win by conquest, but at least to the point where they won't be trying to build the Manhattan Project. B/c if the AI can nuke you, even in a sneak attack, it will, to prevent you from winning.

But, again, maybe there's something in my style. I almost never commit more than one atrocity, so my rep is at the top. I've just found that the AI loves nukes, even if he doesn't have a paratrooper to drop in. That's really bloody annoying; it's a pain to clean up the pollution, but it doesn't make the game challenging.

[korn469]

nukes should be powerful...i mean for the past fifty years people have worried about the world ending in a nuclear holocaust, and to me SDI is a futuristic device, nobody in the world has a working SDI system, the patriot missle was good at hitting the fuel tank of a scud missle but if they had of been carrying a nuclear warhead it wouldn't have been effective at all. it turns out that the reagan era starwars program was just a bluff intended to strain the soviet economy...there is no nation as i am writing this that could stop a nuclear tipped ICBM, the only reason the threat of nuclear holocaust doesn't seem as likely is because it seems that cooler heads, and not some techilogical miracle can stop a nuclear war, in some ways today a nuclear war is even more likely to happen because of the proliferation of nuclear weapons

the non-proliferation treaty, salt I (strategic arms limitation treaty), salt II, and start (strategic arms reduction treaty) have done infinantly more from preventing a nuclear war than has any SDI system...so think twice before including a nuclear proof system SDI system into the game, and it should cost trillions of dollars to research, develop and deploy this system

another thing is stealth bombers shouldn't have a high defence value they should have the ability to attack and the other units can't retaliate, that's how stealth works, you can't kill what you can't see

korn469

[loinburger]

RE: nukes,

This is an old debate. Side A: Make nukes extremely powerful and have diplomatic penalties be extremely harsh. This will be realistic. Side B: The AI is inherently stupid and overuse of nukes can ruin a game.

I feel that Side A has been accounted for in that there are multiple nuke sizes--tactical, strategic, and (if you really want super-nukes) planet busters. The diplomatic penalties, you will recall, go in Diplomacy, as it is assumed that nukes carry penalties with them (the magnitude is not a discussion to be held here).

Side B still has the problem of the AI being stupid. Making nukes more powerful and diplomatic penalties more severe will be useful (somewhat) for multiplayer, but the AI just doesn't care. So in this I'm siding with Flavor Dave.

SDI, as Korn has pointed out, is a futuristic development. However, it is also a necessity for the way the AI uses nukes, so I think that SDI should stay.

The only way to limit nuke useage, I think, is though diplomacy. If a large nuclear capable country was in dire enough straits that it would consider launching its nukes in one last "blaze of glory", the nation would first splinter into fifty faction nations, most of which would squander their resources fighting each other. Something akin to this has already been proposed in Diplomacy, I think. The nuclear capability of the civ would be incredibly diminished, and if anything the civ would have to use its nukes against its splinter nations.

Revolutions and splinter civs are the way to limit nuclear weapons use, not diplomatic penalties. Diplomatic penalties don't mean squat if your civ is about to be obliterated.

[korn469]

i have a few proposals

1. that each unit should have a stealth rating this could be a percentage like from 1 to 100 percent and this would determine if a unit like a stealth bomber or submarine or a guerilla could engage another unit without being detected. this would mean you see your unit engage in combat but you don't see where the attack came from and your unit can't counter attack most units would have a very low rating but some special units could have a high stealth rating, stealth units are ivisable on the map until detected and they can attack an enemy with the enemy being able to damage them

2. guerrilla units should be controled by the AI insurgents, revolutionaries, guerillas, partisans all units like this and not part of your nations armed forces should be under AI control, you should be able to give them goal but the AI would carry them out and it would have it's own agenda. the mujha-hadeen(sp?) was a guerilla backed by the US during the Soviet occupation of afganistan but i don't the US government had very much control of it's operations and so forth making guerillas AI controled with their own objectives would make civ3 more realistic and more interesting...it would give you a chance to interact with the guerilla leaders

instead of building guerilla units they could be created in four ways...if a city is conquered guerillas appear

if a city has a high level of unhappines then guerillas appear. maybe give each city a number like the eco damage number in SMAC except it represents how likely the city is going to have insurgency, this could be an insurgency number

you can fund guerillas in another civ. you pay x-amount of cash and then the insurgency number raises in of a civ's cities, and if you raise it high enough then guerillas appear

you can build units that train guerillas, you send them and they hit a city and a bumber of guerillas units from zero to three appear, these could be green berets for democracies, and viet cong recruiters for communist

3. when biological weapons are used or in ancient times when a plauge occurs it should have a chance of infecting cities close to the one that got infected unless that city was quarantined

korn469

[The diplomat]

Flavor Dave: the problem you raise about nukes is actually an AI problem not a unit problem. The AI is designed to prevent the player from winning which means that it would use nukes just to ruin your plans. What civ3 needs is an AI that acts like a leader of a civ and therefore acts in the best interests of itself. The AI should behave according to the belief that "nuclear war is bad and should be avoided".
Nukes should be powerful to the extent of reality. In civ2, nukes were severely underpowered and as a result players faced the horribly unbalanced strategy of nukes+paratroops.
Makes nukes powerful but have an AI that is deterred from using them.

------------------
No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

[loinburger]

The question stands regarding nukes: Why should the summary be changed?

[Theben]

Nukes aside, I do have a last UNITS idea regarding the workshop. Since it is likely that a unit workshop will be in civ3, I'd like the ability to also have something similar to civ2 (pre-generated units). I don't know if you can modify the cost of the unit equipment in SMAC (haven't looked yet), but I guarantee people will want to be able to change the costs for modpacks and scenarios regardless of the power of the unit. So this is what should be done:
[list=1][*] In an editor screen, you build the unit as normal, listing what makes it obsolete and what makes it available (or do this in the .txt files). Modified images should be available (or can modify in editor?)[*] You also input the cost of the unit; you can select any cost.[*] SMAC had 64 spaces for units in the workshop. Allow that many or more in civ3. The unit created above will be saved in a file, and will become available in the workshop list when the tech is researched (or whatever enables new units in civ3), "obsolete" when obsolete, and "retired" automatically when the last such unit is removed from play. [/list=a]

[loinburger]

Korn:

"1" has been covered in Combat. I didn't want to go too much into ideas that would alter the combat system.

"3" has been covered in Miscellaneous, I believe (haven't checked that thread for a while). Theben's created a disease model that includes diseases spreading from city to city.

I don't believe that "2" has been covered anywhere yet, so I've gone ahead and put that in.

Theben:

I've put your ideas in section 5.4: Customization. Let me know if I've done wrong in their translation to the summary.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by technophile (edited September 28, 1999).]</font>

[Kropotkin]

Another point about the guerilla unit: A guerilla unit that appears without the support of a foreigen power should be funded by the city/area it comes from. That is, fund and/or resources would come from the enemy of the guerilla. Why you ask? because most guerrials has some sort of popular support and is supported by average citizens thus taking resourses from the gov't. The VC took up taxes in areas controlled by them etc.

------------------
Kropotkin
Your personal nihilist on call
olejan98@student.umu.se

[loinburger]

bump

[Mo]

Guerilla units should also have a limited power. As in once they have acomplished they either disband or join the regular military of the nation they are supporting.
ex: If guerillas spawn because one of your cities was captured, they should fight the capturing civilization, but only within a small radius of the city and they should concentrate on liberating your city. Once the guerillas have captured the city they should most likely return the city to you and then join your military or disband.

[loinburger]

bump bump bump. NOW QUIT POSTING UNITS IDEAS IN SEPARATE TOPICS! Thank you.

[JamesJKirk]

The Communist govt type should provid free peasant armies, in very much the same way that Fundie provided fundies in Civ2. These would be nearly free, but have virtually no attack value, at least compared to modern armies, they would be basically canon fodder.
Great idea, eh?!?!

[Cosilongo]

Some thoughts around the idea of patriots/ reservists which I think is an important one. For example, most of the saxon troops at the Battle of Hastings were this kind of levy. I think large walled cities like London were never attacked in mediaeval times, because their size made them almost mpossible to overcome. They had to be forced to surrender by other means.

Maybe there could be an option to improve the quality of these troops by spending a certain amount each turn, to raise them from a pitchfork wielding peasant to something like a militia. This option would be an interesting one, because if there was unhappiness, these could rise up and attack any soldiers in the town in an attempt to
overthrow your rule and declare independence. So instead of as in Civ2 soldiers making some unhappy citizens content, these would stay unhappy, but only if the strength of the city population was more than the soldiers in the town they would rise up and attack them. So you could have the option of keeping the peasants weak, not worrying about happiness and controlling them with relatively few soldiers (a feudal approach) or training them up to provide a cheap means of defence, but
having to keep them happy.

You could use spies to smuggle arms to the populations of unhappy cities, so that they would have a bigger chance of overcoming any
soldiers stationed there.

[loinburger]

bump