EC3 Fix # 4 - DIPLOMACY

[raingoon]

"Diplomacy - more options for negotiations, pacts and treaties." - Tiberius

[Harel]

Use my summary!

No, seriously, if i have to think about one thing to take from the summary that will be... wow, thats hard...

but i think negotions will be in order. I have a full section detailing how you can negotiate anything like:
You ask for 500 credit.
Side B says: only if you give me laser tech.
You answer: i can't give you laser, how about genetic engineering instead?
Side B replays: fine, but i only give you 400 credits then.
You replay: give me 600, and i'll add two missile friagetes.

Side B accept.

[Dr Strangelove]

Some ideas for enriching diplomacy:
Nations have always hungered for "natural frontiers". If the AI of a nation/player were able to recognize defensive features of the surrounding area and assign a value to obtaining them, perhaps its diplomacy could be more goal oriented, and it could use these "desires" as negotiating points. Likewise value within the AI program could be assigned to regaining lost territory.
To spice up diplomacy I'd like to see the personalities of the computer leaders change occasionally. In one generation the Greeks might be lead by a builder like Pericles, a hudred years later they might be lead by an expansionist like Alexander.
More options to diplomacy? If the AI had concrete goals, like regaining territory, natural borders you could add options along the lines of designing limited alliances. Other negotiating points might be traditional enemies (the guy who beat you twice), inimical governmental philosophies (communist and fascist), and trade dominance (I'll let you dominate trade of coffee or with greece if you'll let me dominate trade of tobacco or with rome.)

[Tiberius]

I think it's about sending a message to Firaxis: better diplomacy. If diplomacy will be in the top 5 list, they will know: we want more options for negotiations, trading, diplomatic relations, treaties, pacts and so on. Then just pick up the List, search there for ideas and choose, for example, Harel's summary to implement it.

[Matthevv]

I agree, more diplomacy, less fighting.

[korn469]

Tiberius

first can you define what the problem is? is it a significant problem? how does your ideas fix that problem specifically? does your fix effect any other areas of the game? if it does effect another area does it upset game balance in those other areas? is there a simpler way to fix the problem? does your idea hurt gameplay? why out of all of the ideas does your fix belong on this list?

there are lots of great ideas floating around in the list about diplomacy...hopefully civ3 will do a good job on the diplomacy front

[Tiberius]

Harel, would you do the final draft instead of me?
I thought we must write just a suggestion, like "more options for negotiations" but looks like there are serious novells out there, and I don't know how to expand my proposal.

[Tiberius]

Somebody else?
I'm really sorry, but I don't know what should I write in the final draft. I'm sure everybody wants good diplomacy in Civ3, but diplomacy is such a huge domain, that I'm lost in it.
I know Korn that you don't want you use the List as reference, but could we do an exception in this case? Like: Firaxis, please implement more diplomacy options, choose them from the List.

Please help!
Thanks.

I don't have Internet access from now until tomorrow, so this is my final post about this issue. Good luck.

[The Mad Viking]

Tiberius, I saw your call to Harel, but missed your last post- or I would have done a draft. I am as disappointed as you, Improved Diplomacy would be second only to better AI in my overall wants.

Hopefully Firaxis fixes this anyway. The proposal linking trade and diplomacy will help.

[korn469]

Fix #10 - Diplomacy

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>The effects of diplomacy have had just as great an impact on the history of civilization as military conquest or economic supremacy. With each release of a civ game, the diplomacy engine has improved but it still could use improvement. Through diplomatic efforts small nations have risen to greatness, dominant powers have been countered, and old empires have been betrayed and carved up amongst the allied victors. There must be powerful diplomatic options available to the player, so that the player can have complex and meaningful interaction with surrounding civilizations. Without the effective use of diplomacy a civ should be destined to be a footnote in the pages of history.

diplomatic interaction

• The diplomacy interface should be simple and efficient to use, but should let the player have complex diplomatic interactions with other civs.
• Diplomacy should effect all layers of each civilization, and dealings with other civs should be very important.
• All diplomatic interactions should have a summary of the exact details of the relationship.
• Advanced diplomatic agreements not possible in previous civ games should be possible in civ3. For example, the ability to set up a treaty that simulates NATO with multiple civs involved.
• Additionally, diplomatic arrangements not available in previous civ games like protectorates, colonies, and secret alliances etc. should be in civ3.
• The AI should actively engage in diplomacy and all attempts should be made to teach the AI that it could achieve its objectives through diplomacy.
• Civs should respect diplomacy and should not just gang up on a powerful civ. If two civs have been allies for years that should that should take precedence over a power bar.
• Diplomacy should allow a civ to gain great power through military alliances and great wealth through economic treaties.

Conclusion

Diplomacy is one of the Essential aspects to Civ3 and it needs major improvements over the civ2/SMAC diplomacy system so that Civ3 can be truly outstanding.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited March 10, 2000).]</font>

[Tiberius]

I don't know who wrote the "diplomacy" final draft, but thank you.
Thank you very much .

[MidKnight Lament]

Yeah, when I originally posted my votes, I don't think Diplomacy was up there as an option. So I edited my vote. I'm guessing that that's going to be allowed since there were late Final Drafts posted. Hopefully, Diplomacy will get in depite the fact that some people may not have realised it was an option.

Diplomacy should be top of our Fix list!

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- MKL

There can be larger alliances, containing more that 2 countries, perhaps on the lines of NATO or something.. There could be annual meetings to formulate policy..

Apart from larger alliances, the two strongest nations could organise 'blocs' containing other countries with the same government type.. They could indulge in all sorts of Cold War type activities.. There could also be a Non-Aligned movement containing other countries...
Of course, minor nations should belong to the blocs as well...

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[Harel]

Thanks Korn! Went Tiberius e-mailed me, I went to the site only to notice that the offical posting date is over.. Apparently, you still managed to push it in. Good work!

Who did you quote, I wonder? Not my summary, I am sure...

[korn469]

i had just seen stefu's wonderful summary for religion and i wrote it like his summary off the top of my head glad you guys liked it

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The OpenCiv3 website
korn469

[ruoxiaohai]

I'm not sure if this was noted already, I couldn't find it...anyway, I think that it is disappointing in Civ 2 how the computer can do such things as:
1. declare war on you through diplomacy
2. demand that you either withdraw your troops or renounce the treaty, not even having to go through the diplomacy screen.

These are just two additions...

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I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

[Windborne]

I see a few problems with the civilization II diplomacy screen.

First you have no real diplomatic objective, I would love to be able to have a diplomatic "Victory", as well as being able to perform special diplomatic feats, such as obolishing all slavery in the world, establishing a universal world bank, obolishing human sacrifice, or spreading a world religion across the globe.

Second I need a way to do massive economic trades through diplomacy, I'll give you 1000 gold, a map of australia, and a phalanx in exchange for the city of Berlin. Massive trades give diplomacy a bite, especially if your in a position of power.

Third treaties should have to be negotiated, not just be some standard (boring) peace treaty or alliance. If I have more power then you the treaty might give me rights to travel through your territory, require you to pay me tribute each turn, etc . . . You might include being willing to sign a treaty as part of a trade; I'll sign that nasty treaty if . . . .

Fourth we need a better espionage system built into the diplomacy model, why should I trade for something if I can steal it why declare war if I can smuggle good out and embezzle from the treasury? Pirate their fleets? Incite revolts? Free their slaves?