WONDERS (ver 2.1): Hosted by EnochF

[EnochF]

Here's where we're at so far. This is the summary in the new format. Some of the latest suggestions didn't make it in because, well, the thread suddenly went kerplooey last week, dumping almost thirty suggestions into oblivion, but I got the rest.

Wonders of the World have become a part of the Civilization experience. Every player has his favorite, and there are entire strategies based upon them. They're not just about strategy, though. They're about imbuing the game with a sense of grandeur. And long-time Civilization players have quite a lot to say on the subject.

1. NEW FORMS OF WONDERS

Many players have suggested Wonder-like constructions which behave according to a different set of rules than the conventional Wonders of Civilization II, Call to Power and Alpha Centauri.

1.1) World's Greatest: By paying double the shield cost, a civilization can build a World's Greatest city improvement, which grants a small bonus for that city (double effect, as in +100% gold for marketplaces, 4 citizens happy for temples, etc.) Another civilization can pay double that to outdo the current World's Greatest. A temple = 20 shields, the first World's Greatest = 40, someone else spends 80 to outdo them, etc. (Ecce Homo)

1.1a) Pythagoras: Suggests limited timespan for world's greatest.
1.1b) kmj: Suggests "bidding" for world's greatest. Suggests world's greatest can go obsolete, i.e. World's Greatest Marketplace loses all bonuses upon discovery of Banking.
1.1c) Glacier: World's tallest building or longest bridge/tunnel could provide extra gold or happiness.
1.1d) Ecce Homo: World's Greatest Palace would be buildable throughout the game, would give diplomatic bonus and kill corruption.
1.1e) Q Cubed: Every World's Greatest would be effective until trumped by the new World's Greatest. Cost is not doubled but graded at 10% increases. 100, 110, 121, etc. Suggestions:

1.1e1) Tallest Building [+trade]
1.1e2) Longest Bridge [+trade] /must be built between cities across channel, river
1.1e3) Longest Tunnel [+trade] /must be built between cities across channel (~Chunnel), river, mountain, hill\
1.1e4) Greatest Places of Worship (temple, cathedral) [+happiness +trade]
1.1e5) Greatest Places of Trade (marketplace, bank, stock ex., supermarket)) [+trade]
1.1e6) Best (Places of Education (university, library, academy)) [+science]
1.1e7) Best Superhighways [+production *easier travel between cities]
1.1e8) Largest Harbor [+production +food +trade] /must be built in cities with access to inland seas or oceans\
1.1e9) Busiest Airport [+food +production +trade *easier travel between cities such as multiple flights from airports to this city]
1.1e10) Busiest Seaport [+food +production +trade] /must be built in cities with access to ocean
1.1e11) Best Hospital [+science +happiness]
1.1e12) Best (Factories) [+production +trade +science]
1.1e13) Best Arcologies [+trade +science +food +production] /must be built in cities with all city radii squares filled, or cities larger than 21 people\
1.1e14) Best (Entertainment Complexes (Stadium, Holotheaters, Movie Palaces)) [+trade +happiness]
1.1e15) Largest Corporation [+trade +science +production +energy]
1.1e16) Greatest Clock Tower [+trade +production]

1.1f) Flavor Dave: World's Greatests could either be useless or dominant. Balance is important.
1.1g) Theben: Disapproves of World's Greatest because it will end up a lot of wasted production for a minor effect.

1.2) Land Engineering Wonders: The Great Canal, for example, requiring explosives, modern engineers, allows trade routes. The Polders may reclaim land from the sea. A Great Wall which actually acts as a physical wall along the civilization's borders. (Diodorus)

1.2a) Ecce Homo: Canals, bridges, walls could be city improvements. The World's Greatest Canal could have effects resembling Great Canal.
1.2b) kmj: Land engineering Wonders limited by terrain: no Great Canal by water
1.2c) ml_4da3: Engineers should be able to modify rivers; perhaps a Wonder facilitates this.

1.3) Natural Wonders: Effects are conferred upon a civilization simply by having the wonder in its territory. (CyberShy)

1.3a) Taedott: Natural wonders are a resource, no benefits unless "improved."
1.3b) meowser: Natural wonders appear on map, or random on map (SMAC geographical features). Size: 1 tile, offer resource bonus, can be "improved" to provide tourism.
1.3c) J.DeMobray: Building Natural Wonders is ludicrous. What would Mt. Fuji do?
1.3d) Q Cubed: Suggestions:

1.3d1) Landmarks, randomly seeded by the fractal map generator; confers bonuses to all tiles within a city radius
1.3d2) Big Waterfalls {goes by Niagara, Angel, etc.} [+energy +trade +production]
1.3d3) Big Mountains {Kilimanjaro, McKinley, K2, etc.} [+energy +trade -population]
1.3d4) Big Canyons, Trenches {Grand Canyon, Great Rift Valley, etc.} [+energy +trade]
1.3d5) Big Volcanos {Krakatoa, Pinatubo, etc.} [+energy +production -population]
1.3d6) Big Reefs {Great Barrier Reef, etc.} [+trade +science +food]
1.3d7) Big Forests {Schwarzwald, etc.} [+trade +science +production]
1.3d8) Big Jungles {Amazon Rain Forest, etc.} [+trade +science +food +production]
1.3d9) Big Deserts {Sahara, etc.} [+trade +science -population]
1.3d10) Big Inland Freshwater Seas {Lake Victoria, etc.} [+trade +science +food]
1.3d11) Big Inland Saltwater Seas {Caspian Sea, etc.} [+trade +science]

1.3e) Flavor Dave: 2 trade arrows for a Natural Wonder square; looks impressive on the city screen (city view screen). Would make Explorer units more useful. Cities can't be built on Natural Wonder squares.
1.3f) Darkstarr: I don't see anything wrong with a Natural Wonder. There will probably be volcanoes, meteor craters and other large geographical features.

1.4) Alternatives to Shield Production: Certain Wonders are not dependent upon shields (resources) to be built. Scientific Wonders built by beakers, Economic Wonders built by gold. (Ecce Homo)

1.4a) NotLikeTea: How about the first civilization to send a ship around the world automatically gains the "Magellan's Voyage" Wonder. Manhattan Project is accomplished using Research Beakers instead of Shields.
1.4b) Jimmy: agrees with Magellan's Voyage
1.4c) NotLikeTea: Luxuries could be used to build happiness Wonders.
1.4d) NotLikeTea: Rethinking his position because it will end up the rich getting richer. (more gold = more production for economic wonders)
1.4e) Darkstarr: All turn-based games with resources involve the rich getting richer. That's the way reality works, too. Players beat the computer because they manage their resources more intelligently.

1.5) Mini-Wonders: Suggests a huge number of wonders (rather than Wonders) with small effects, usually increased trade. Examples: Space Needle, Leaning Tower, etc. Rather than huge Wonders with sweeping effects like Pyramids, have countless small wonders with tiny, localized effects. (willko)

1.5a) Russell: suggests "mini-wonders" with small build costs.
1.5b) Theben: suggested mini-wonders a while back, double the cost; upon building, the player could choose a special bonus/effect for the mini-wonder (something small and reasonable); there would be a list of effects to choose from. Not all would be available to each building type. No two mini-wonders could have the exact same effects; therefore, there would be many possible mini-wonders per building type, but a finite amount.
1.5c) EnochF: I was thinking mini-wonders would provide only trade bonuses. They'd be things like the Washington Monument, the Space Needle, the Leaning Tower of Pisa, the Louvre, the Neuschwanstein Castle, that sort of thing. It wouldn't make sense to have two of the same mini-wonder in the same city if this is the case.
1.5d) Theben: No, the mini-wonder would be a temple or marketplace or library and count as that building, plus a couple extras, maybe +1 content or +1 morale to units built there. You'd get to name the wonder whatever you want, though the computer might suggest one or more names.
1.5e) Darkstarr: How about World's Fair wonder/event, hosting city gains gold for hosting the fair.

1.6) National Special Projects: "National Special Projects" is the general category, of which Wonders are a subset. Wonders are unique NSP's, but certain NSP's would be rebuildable. Certain Wonders or NSP's could not be built without "prerequisite" NSP's. (Darkstarr)

1.6a) Q Cubed: As opposed to Wonders, National Projects can be built by more than one civilization, though the costs are roughly equivalent. High maintenance and weaker effects than Wonders, typically.
1.6b) EnochF: Tends to think that early Wonders should remain Wonders, and NSP's would be more appropriate in the mid- to late game.
1.6c) Transcend: Transcend: We need to separate wonders and secret projects. Wonders must have a physical form such as buildings, canals, etc. Secret projects are things like Manhattan, Apollo and Human Genome. Wonders can be destroyed and/or captured; secret projects cannot. Secret projects should not be built in a single city; they are property of a nation.
1.6d) Darkstarr: About prerequisites. Hoover Dam has to be built before anyone can built the NSP of National Hydroelectric Project
1.6e) Ecce Homo: Non-material achievements that are researched like techs, but can only be researched once. Examples: Almagest, Emancipation Act, Darwin's Voyage.
1.6f) Jimmy: Secret projects should be secret. Other civs should not be notified when building begins.
1.6g) EnochF: Maybe you could have the option to build in secret at an increased shield cost, or you sacrifice the ability to boost production with caravans.
1.6h) Theben: I don't know about that. A competent spy network should manage to discover something is going on. Unless you've never met the building civ.
1.6i) Andy B: Maybe a wonder like KGB could make your major projects secret from all other civs.

Many people seem to like the concept of the World's Greatest and have contributed their own set or subset of rules to govern their use. I tend to think that World's Greatests would be most useful, and least realistic, in the early game, such as with the World's Greatest Palace and Marketplace. Many people have made the suggestion that the computer should allow the player to name the World's Greatest upon completion. (Of course, the computer will have a number of appropriate suggestions, names which the AI will use.) As Eggman remarked, "Yes, every city has a temple, but there is (or was) only one Temple of Artemis at Ephesus. There are plenty of clock towers, but only one Big Ben. Everyone has a museum, but there is only one Louvre."

The concept of National Special Projects probably stems from Wonders such as Women's Suffrage, Contraception, and other such things that would not ordinarily be limited to one nation. Thus, these Projects follow most of the rules that currently govern Wonders, i.e. their construction is "announced" to all players, they provide Wonder-like effects; however, they can be built once by each civilization upon reaching the necessary advance. Certain Projects and Wonders may require an advance and an NSP to be built. (However, no NSP would require a Wonder to be built, only an NSP; thus, no NSP would be limited to one nation.)

Natural Wonders is, to me, in a category separate from all the other Wonders. Essentially, it is a slightly altered form of the "landmarks" in Alpha Centauri. The "Earth map" of Civilization III would include a number of Natural Wonders in the correct spot, and the square(s) containing the Wonders would provide a bonus to trade or production (which might be amplified by certain advances later on).

2. NEW RULES FOR WONDERS

Many players wish to keep the basic system for building Wonders that has existed in Civilization II and carried on to Call to Power. However, they wish to "tweak" the rules slightly, either in the name of realism or competitive gameplay or something else. Here are some of the changes to the current rules.

2.1) Disallowing "Races to Build": No two cities in one civilization can build the same wonder at the same time. (meowser)

2.1a) CyberShy: No races allowed at all.
2.1b) kmj: Races between two civilizations should be discouraged but not disallowed by the game. A message appears, such as, "Sir, the Egyptians are believed to be working on a similar project. Shall we continue?"
2.1c) SnowFire: Disallowing switching production would severely handicap the AI. A player can always buy the wonder at the last minute, leaving the computer with a great deal of wasted production.
2.1d) ErikNYC: Left-over production could be converted into trade, food, science, or some other variable related to the Wonder being constructed.
2.1e) Stefu: Don't disallow races. Disallow rush-building Wonders. This would make races more interesting. (Trying various ways of cranking up production).
2.1f) NotLikeTea: Don't disallow rush-building Wonders. Limit it. Allow 10% rush-building per turn at a high cost.
2.1g) Jimmy: Disallow switching production. How can Pyramid builders suddenly start building Leonardo's Workshop?
2.1h) Theben: Do not allow civs to continue building Wonders that are already built; they can "upgrade" a city improvement to a mini-wonder or world's greatest, or can build mini-wonder/world's greatest building from scratch.

2.2) Visible Wonders: Certain Wonders would appear in the city radius as impressive graphics. They would not confer any bonus to the worker on that square. (EnochF)

2.2a) meowser: Visible wonders should be vulnerable to pillage (without direct assault on the city).
2.2b) Ecce Homo: All Wonders should be visible. If it's not visible, it's not a Wonder (Women's Suffrage, Internet, Emancipation Act are thus disallowed)

2.3) Gradual Wonder Obsolescence: Wonders should not cease all effects on obsolescence, but gradually "phase out" over a few turns. (Zorloc)

2.3a) Zakalwe: Suggests something similar for captured wonders. Effects do not take effect immediately.
2.3b) kmj: No advance should make more than one Wonder obsolete.
2.3c) Russell: An advance discovered by a faraway civilization should not make your wonder go obsolete. This should only happen when you've encountered the civilization directly.
2.3d) Ecce Homo: Wonders should not "go obsolete." They should become irrelevant. Examples: Great Library will only give Ancient or Medieval advances. Great Wall does not protect against gunpowder units. Thus, Great Wall will always protect against Legions, whether or not Metallurgy has been discovered.

2.4) Wonders as a Civilization-Wide Project: Wonders are not built on the level of the city at all. Instead of being a city project, they are built by the entire civilization, using X% of total production or some such thing. Wonders thus do not appear in cities but in a special "wonder screen." (meowser)

2.4a) Fugi the Great: Wonders built by engineers or terraformers rather than X% of production. Increase costs of Wonders.
2.4b) Eggman: Instead, have cities "funnel" their production into building the Wonder. Instead of having cities build caravans, which add to production, "eliminate the middleman." A city could dedicate its production (or a percentage) to building a Wonder.

2.5) Wonder Deterrents: Random negative effects for more powerful wonders. Leonardo's might leave a percentage of units not upgraded. Lighthouse has a chance to burn out each turn. (Ufa)

2.5a) EnochF: As an alternative to random effects, use constant negative effects instead. Increased pollution or corruption in the host city, slight happiness reduction for the civilization, high maintenance cost in gold, or something along those lines.
2.5b) EnochF: Example: if the Great Library is ever captured, your civilization may lose all the technology it provided.
2.5c) J.DeMobray: How about instead a Wonder that gives you a chance per turn for something positive to happen. West Point could grant veteran status to units within its city, or Tokyo Exchange could grant the city 10x gold.
2.5d) Q Cubed: That might be okay for world's greatest or mini-wonders, but not Wonder wonders.
2.5e) Matthew: Maybe building certain Wonders would preclude the building of other Wonders. Or perhaps certain Wonders would be less effective for larger civs or civs with more cities, to balance out ICS strategies.
2.5f) EnochF: Perhaps large maintenance costs for Wonders. Keep them low for early Wonders, maybe 8 or 10 gold per turn. Examples: Pyramids and Hanging Gardens: 1 shield + 10 gold. King Richard's: 3 food + 20 gold. Michelangelo's: 2 shields + 30 gold. Oracle: 5 gold. SETI: 4 shields + 50 gold. Adam Smith's: buildable only in cities w/bank, nullifies marketplace and bank in host city, cost 2 shields + 30 gold.
2.5g) Andy B: Wonders that cost money: no, no and no.

2.6) Re-buildable Wonders: Only if two rival civilizations are building the same wonder, the second civilization to complete the wonder receives a "compensation" bonus of happiness or gold. The first civilization receives the standard wonder effect. (meowser)

2.6a) Fugi the Great: Civs can build the same Wonder and call it something different.
2.6b) wheathin: Wonders should be only those things which are not reproducible; everything else is a city improvement of some kind, but mini-wonders could work as a middle step.
2.6c) paraclet: Favors off button, or that all civilizations should be able to build each Wonder once. Once a Wonder is built, all civilizations could build a corresponding "national project," i.e., Leonardo's equivalent would be National Academy of Technology.
2.6d) Flavor Dave: Wonders should be built only once. This incorporates important choices in the strategy of the game.
2.6e) Q Cubed: Multiple clones of a Wonder are a poor alternative to the "unfair advantage" of one civilization having dominion over one Wonder. A re-buildable Wonder wouldn't be a Wonder.
2.6f) Matthew: I don't like the idea of more than one civ building the same Wonder. Then it wouldn't be a Wonder.

2.7) Evolving Wonders Through the Ages: Wonder effects which change as the ages progress. Pyramids act as granary early on, then change to gold bonus. Olympic Games provide extra gold, cease to function in Renaissance, then increase happiness in later ages, etc. Aging wonders may incur higher and higher maintenance costs. (Eggman)

2.7a) EnochF: All obsolete wonders generate tourism gold.
2.7b) SnowFire: Aging wonders should not incur maintenance costs simply because they are obsolete. However, maintenance costs for certain Wonders may be feasible.
2.7c) EdCase: When a Wonder goes obsolete, adds 10% to income of the city.
2.7d) Depp: The game's more fun when Wonders never go obsolete.

2.8) Culture Specific Wonders: Certain Wonders are only constructible by certain civilizations. Which civilization can build which Wonder may be randomized at the beginning of the game. (meowser)

2.8a) kmj: Disagrees with cultural wonders, warns against "factions" rather than civilizations, which might work in SMAC but not in Civilization III.
2.8b) (Many disagreements)

2.9) Uncertainty of Wonder Effects: Effects of wonders should not be predefined. Effects of the Wonder should only become clear to the builder X number of years after it is built. (CyberShy)

2.10) Shared Wonder Effects in Alliance: Also suggested in the Diplomacy list. All civilizations allied with each other receive the effects of each other's Wonders. (meowser)

2.11) Cooperative Wonder Building: Certain limited Wonders could be jointly built by a conglomeration of nations. United Nations is an obvious choice. (meowser)

2.11a) Torando7: I like the idea of gaining the ability to combine your efforts with allied civs to build super-wonders, like the International Space Station. The bonus would apply only so long as you are allied.
2.11b) Maybe building the Unity, the ship bound for Alpha Centauri, should be limited to international construction. Or maybe not.

2.12) Name Your Own Wonder: Hoover Dam may be called Aswan or Three Gorges or London Dam. Forbidden City may be called Imperial Palace, Throne Hall of Persepolis, Palace of Versailles or Atlanta Palace. The Agency may be called FBI, CIA, KGB, KLA or KMJ Killer Squad. (kmj)

2.12a) Trachmyr: The game should suggest a few key names.
2.12b) Flavor Dave: Naming your own wonder would offset America-centrism.

2.13) Wonder Cost Affected by World Type: Certain wonders are more beneficial in certain worlds. Lighthouse and Magellan are more useful in watery worlds; Marco Polo for large worlds. Thus, they would cost more shields in such worlds and less in other worlds. (Theben)

2.14) Destroy Wonder: The spy ability to destroy a Wonder in an enemy city. In SMAC terminology, counts as an atrocity. (Stefu)

2.14a) Mo: Alternate idea. If a city containing a Wonder is destroyed, the Wonder will remain visible in one of the city squares (assumes Visible Wonders are implemented). Any civilization which builds a city near the wonder gains "part of its effects."
2.14b) meowser: Visible wonders should be vulnerable to pillage. (This is a suggestion made a while ago on the subject of "visible wonders.")
2.14c) Andy B: Why aren't Wonders destroyed when you nuke a city?
2.14d) Eggman: How about the option to rebuild a Wonder if it's destroyed. Perhaps only the original building civ could opt to rebuild, and it must be done within in a certain number of turns after its destruction or the Wonder is lost forever.
2.14e) Andy B: Or maybe you can only rebuild it after it's gone obsolete... and it becomes a tourist attraction.

2.15) Delayed Availability: Merely having researched the appropriate technology does not immediately allow the construction of the Wonder associated with that technology. There is a cumulative chance each turn that someone will "think up" the Wonder, making it available for your civilization to build. (Ufa)

2.15a) Harel: I've already suggested that a new technology, Architecture, would be required in order to build Wonders at all. Without applied knowledge of mathematics, engineering and construction, you can't build something so huge.

2.16) One Wonder Per City: As a way to hinder the "rich get richer" syndrome, limit cities to one active Wonder at a time. If City A builds Hanging Gardens, it cannot build another Wonder until HG goes obsolete, thus eliminating the "super city" strategy. Or tie it to population. Cities of pop 25+ can have two Wonders (New York has UN and SOL).

2.16a) Theben: I disagree. I like my super-science city. Turning off Wonders is challenge enough without arbitrary limits like this.

3. IMPLEMENTATION OF WONDERS

This is a tricky category. Some people want to tweak the way Wonders affect the game and the way in which we think about Wonders. For example:

3.1) Programmable Wonders: A long series of flags allows players to redefine current wonders and create new ones to a much larger extent. Any Wonders dropped from the final release of the game might still persist as possible game effects to be used by scenario and modpack designers. (EnochF)

3.2) Wonders Off Option: An option in the game menu to disallow all wonder effects (and even the ability to build wonders). Alternatively, an option to "tone down" wonders, maybe decrease effects by half wherever possible. (kmj)

3.2a) Ufa: A "modifier" for wonders, like Civilization II's modifier for barbarians
3.2b) Mark_Everson: Disallow wonders that count as an improvement in every city. Wonders that never go obsolete are unbalancing.
3.2c) Ecce Homo: Suggests Pyramid be city improvement, thus Great Pyramid = world's greatest

3.3) "Culture" Partly Defined by Wonders: Part of a larger system suggested in other forums. The Wonders a player builds help define a new game element called "culture," which may affect a civilization's war readiness, science, economy, government, even graphical representation on screen. A fairly radical reordering of traditional Civilization. Bears resemblance to "social engineering" as found in SMAC. (Trachmyr)

3.3a) Darkstarr: Special Projects could be mechanisms for adjusting social engineering.

3.4) Universal Wonder Effects: Growing out of Sieve Too's Internet Wonder. Many wonders provide benefits to all civilizations, i.e. the Olympic Games open to all who choose to participate, Wormhole Sensor, Apollo, Manhattan, etc. (Ecce Homo)

3.4a) willko: Disagrees. Wonders should have localizable benefits to the city they are built in (e.g., Lighthouse only functions at X distance maximum). Any wonder with a "universal" benefit should have a separate "non-universal" benefit, i.e. Manhattan Project also grants +25% science.
3.4b) Theben: I strongly believe the positive effects of wonders w/UB should slowly spread to other civs. Otherwise player has no incentive to build his/her own.
3.4c) Andy B: The Olympic Games could act as a peace and trade wonder. It could only function when the civs are at peace with each other.
3.4d) NotLikeTea: I don't think Olympic Games should be a peace wonder.
3.4e) Eggman: In times of war, the Olympics have been canceled. But countries have agreed to ceasefires so their athletes could compete (especially in ancient Greece). Maybe the Olympics could be an event that happens every 20 years or so, rather than a Wonder. A new city would host each time, providing some trade bonus, and whoever "wins" gets an "I Love the Leader" day in every city for one turn.

3.5) Eliminating Eurocentrism and Americacentrism: Consensus is that the Wonders are Eurocentric or Americacentric. There is a call for more international Wonders. Several are listed in the Suggested Wonders section. (too many to list)

3.5a) Areas for consideration: Russia has been passed over for Wonders. The Americas are under-represented, except for the United States, which is over-represented.

3.6) Eliminating Person-Based Wonders: Wonders such as Shakespeare's Theater would be eliminated. Instead, "Great Leader" units would pop up occasionally. (Bubba)

3.7) Seven Wonders per Age: Every age would have exactly seven Wonders (mrtemba)

[EnochF]

4. SPECIFIC WONDER SUGGESTIONS

Finally, there have been countless suggestions, in the course of this thread, for specific Wonders people want to see in Civilization III. A lot of them are absolutely terrible, a lot are appropriate, and a few are practically incontestable. There aren't really any guidelines for what is and is not an appropriate Wonder, but Harel quotes a general rule: "If atleast 10% of the people don't have a clue what you are talking about, it's probaly not a wonder." I'll let you decide which are which. First, though, there are some rather important suggestions.

4.1) Internet: A suggestion that provoked a huge response of support. The Internet wonder would provide benefits to not only the host civilization, but all civilizations with the Computers advance. Sparked the discussion about "universal" wonders. (Sieve Too)

4.1a) anachron: Internet should be a technological advance, not a Wonder.
4.1b) (many agreements)

4.2) New Eiffel Tower: The Eiffel Tower would prevent other civilizations from sneak-attacking you. (Bird)

4.2a) Sieve Too: Suggests the new Eiffel Tower plus United Nations might be an unfair combination. Suggests instead a permanent, unbreakable alliance with all civilizations.
4.2b) Theben: Changed Eiffel Tower to Bill of Rights in his modpack.

4.3) Human Genome Project: Should have military ramifications, such as the ability to infect an enemy city with genetically engineered virus and start an epidemic. (anachron)

4.3a) Incidentally, the Human Genome Project is one of the few viable near-future Wonders that almost everyone can agree on. This would be an example of an NSP as described above.

4.4) Finally, the complete list of Wonder suggestions. Use at your own risk!

Abu Simbel
Admiral Nelson's Fleet: increased ship strength/movement, maybe
Agora (huge market in Mali, possibly, trade bonus; effect: caravans treat all squares as roads, or 6 moves, or travel over water without ships).
Alaskan Oil Pipeline
Alfred Nobel's Foundation
The Almagest (Ptolemy's Almagest): boost to science
Angel Falls
Angkor Wat
Area 51
Aristotle's Encyclopedia of Knowledge: boost to ancient science, but gradually declines to become a hindrance to science later on; eventually goes obsolete with Heliocentrism
The Aswan Dam
Aura of Invincibility (morale, police bonus)
The Aztec Temple in Tenochtitlan
Banaue Rice Terraces
The Bay of Fundy
Borobudur Temple
Carnegie Steel Corporation: boost to production, I assume
The Channel Tunnel: connects two cities (must be constructed between two civilizations, maybe?)
Chronosphere (airport in every city)
The Clock Tower (Big Ben)
The CN Tower
The Colosseum
The Crystal Palace
Diderot's Encyclopedia: science
Dome on the Rock (one content per city; all civs with Monotheism suffer 1 unhappy per city in 4+ cities; in addition, religion based govts would suffer x2 effect, while atheist govts, i.e. communism, would be immune)
Drugs
Ellis Island (makes 0.01% of the world's population emigrate to the city each year)
Empire State Building
Fedreal Bureau of Investigation: veteran spies, effects of spy in every city, better protection vs. rival spies/diplomats/corporate branches, etc.
First Contact (achieves victory)
Francis Bacon's Royal Society: science
The Gateway Arch
The Grand Canyon
Grand Palace of the Soviet (diplomatic bonus)
The Great Barrier Reef
The Great Canal
Great General Staff (Gro?er Generalstab)
The Great Polis (removes negative effects of current government in that city only; if captured, will not function again until all citizens "assimilated" into your empire)
The Great Revolution (allows democracy and modern republic governments; before which, only autocratic governments and oligarchic republic are allowed; instantly switches building civ's government to modern republic and halves military costs for next 20 turns)
Ibn Battuta's Travels
Iguacu Falls
The Iliad: double movement rate of settlers and clerics
Imperial Navy Shipyard
International Space Station (buildable only cooperatively with allied nations)
Ise Shrine
Itaipu Dam
The Kaaba: happiness
King Asoka's Edict
KGB: same as FBI
King Richard's Crusade (modified): bonus morale to all land units, all cities gain +1 trade for temples, +2 if cathedrals, +3 with both. Increases chance of tech diffusion with civs you've contacted. Available w/Chivalry, ends w/Conscription.
Krakatoa Island
The Kremlin
The Leaning Tower
Lucasfilm
Machu Pichu
The Marianas Trench: underwater natural wonder
Mars Colony
The Mausoleum
The Mayan Temples of Mikal
Millennium Tower (allow more citizens to live in the city, or boost population by 3 in one turn)
Mines of Potosi
The Moai Statues
Mont-Saint-Michel
Moon Base
Mt. Everest
Mt. Fuji
Mt. Kilimanjaro
Mt. Rushmore
Nakamatsu's Workshop
The New Deal (same effect as Cure for Cancer)
Niagara Falls
The Olympic Games: happiness wonder, buildable in early ages, goes obsolete in renaissance ten "turns on" again in modern times
Paricutin Volcano
The Parthenon: happiness
Petra
The Petronas Towers
The Polders: reclaiming land from the sea
Potala
The Queen's Dominion
Red Square
The Red-Line (Transatlantic Cable)
St. Basil's Cathedral
St. Peter's Basilica
SDI
The Shwedagon Pagoda
Statue of Zeus
Statue of Cristo Redentor: happiness
Stupa of Wild Goose
Sultan's Forge: boost to gunpowder units/cannons
Sydney Opera House
Taj Mahal
Temple of Artemis
Temple of the Inscriptions
Tennessee Valley Authority: increased public works, maybe...
Three Gorges Dam
The Throne Hall of Persepolis
The Time Tunnel (look, it wasn't my idea)
Trans-Siberian Railroad (will build railroads between all cities; this assumes that RR's do not allow unlimited movement, but perhaps 1/12th point per square; also halves time to build RR's)
Tycho Brahe's Observatory (Uranienborg): science
Utopia (effect of Great Polis in every city in civ; your govt and SE can never change)
Victoria Falls
Wall Street
West Point
Ziggurat at Ur

[Ecce Homo]

Thank you again, EnochF!

My comments:

1.1. World's Greatest should have effects similar to the current Wonders (maybe toned down) plus the City Improvement effect:
Library=Great Library
Wall=Forces peace
Megalith (like Stonehenge, could be a primitive Temple)= +food

4.4: New wonder - Circus Maximus

Mark Everson wrote that Wonders counting as one improvement in each city should be disable-able (?), as they are unbalanced. I agree. The effects of a Wonder/WG should be limited to the host city.

And could the Wonder list be split into structures, projects and landmarks?
__________________________
The best ideas are those that can be improved.
Ecce Homo
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Ecce Homo (edited September 03, 1999).]</font>

[EnochF]

Oh, bugger. I forgot all about Dio's big long post... Dio, I'm sorry! That'll be my next goal, trust me! It'll take a while, though, because I'm basically integrating two summaries into one, which amounts to adding like fifty separate suggestions.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Thanx for that last, E, I was about to report that sucker for the third time!
If you do need it reported here, lemme know and I can drop it in...

[NotLikeTea]

Crud. My wonder idea was one of those lost.. Ah well... here it is again, more or less

-----

Palace of Soviets
=================

Background:
----------
A wonder that was never actually constructed. To have been placed in Moscow, the palace of Soviets was to have beent he worlds tallest building, topped with a statue of Lenin larger than the Statue of Liberty.

(more info and pictures at http://nw3.nai.net/~virtual/sot/church.html)

Effects:
-------
This was to be essentially a propaganda building, both in the race to be the world's tallest, and in that it housed many museums and auditoriums.
This wonder could only be build be communist civilizations. If they switch out of communism, construction stops. Effects only apply if the holder of the wonder is communist.
The holder of the palace would gain diplomatic advantages with other communist nations (improved trade from alliances). It would also decrease unhappiness (by eliminating several unhappy citizens, or if popular opinion is implemented, by making the people more friendly towards the government).

Note:
----
This wonder could be replaced (with identical effects) with the "Monument for the Third Communist International"
Another WoW that was never actually built, the MftTCI would have housed a convention hall, a propaganda office, and a radio station. It also looks very cool (designed by the same man as the palace, above). Info, and images at http://www.pixi.com/~howarth/TATLIN/history.htm

I suggest that, while every wonder has similar effects for each culture, it has a different name and icon for some. Thus, instead of Hoover Dam, the Egyptians would build Aswan Dam. Instead of Bach's Cathedral, the Arabs might have the Kaaba Mosque, and the Jews might have Solomon's Temple. Even so, only one of each wonder category (one Great Dam, for example) could be constructed.

Wonder titles would be somehat like special government titles. There would be a normal one (say Great Pyramid) and then their would be an option to have a Civ use a special one (like Great Ziggurat instead) This would add a much bigger "cultural" feeling to the game, but it wouldn't actually affect gameplay and make the civs into factions, as they'd all have the same effect.

[mzilikazi]

I agree with Giant Squid, and posted something similar on the bit that got lost... oh well.
However, instead of different wonder names for each Civ, I would limit it to a different name for each (early) wonder depending on the Civ's pre-industrial City Style (Bronze Age, Oriental, Medieval, Classical etc)... and doing teh same for units, some city improvements, throne room etc. Again, no difference in effect, and only one of any type of wonder could be built... but this would give style and atmosphere a far stronger presence in the game. The principle is this: as we could have the samurai, Legion, Swordsman and Impi for various Civ types all available with the same advance and with the same abilities, they could be represented by different names and icons to add to the style of the game. The same could be done for Wonders....

A few of the ideas I wrote...
Barracks type wonder: (Sun Tzu)
Oriental - Sun Tzu's
Classical - Field of Mars
Bronze Age - Shaka's Induna
Medieval - King Richard's Crusade? Napoleon's Guards?

Granary type wonder: (Pyramids)
Classical - Pyramids
Bronze Age - Great Zimbabwe
Oriental - any ideas??
Medieaval/European - Agricultural Revolution?

Similar parallel stylistic options would work well for wonders with effects like those of King Richards (or whoever's) Crusade, Colossus, Marco Polo, the Dams (Hoover, Aswan, Kariba,...), Oracle, Newton, Observatory, Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Bach etc... in fact, almost all pre-modern, and some modern wonders.

This has the added bonus of bringing far more wonders into the realm of possibility, keeping everyone happy by having a cultural balance of wonders. It also adds a little more variety, in that the same wonders won't be built every game - if the Zulus build their wonder before the Chinese, Shaka's Induna will be in the game - and Sun Tzu's will never be built. I like that - it becomes rather a boring procession if exactly the same wonders are bulit in every game of Civ...

And please let's have random natural (landscape) wonders in Civ3...

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Squid & Miz:
In my long post which is yet to be summarized here (ahem!) I did something of the sort you're suggesting. Special Projects as a type of wonder were divided by effects/types. In other words, a bunch of Civs could all start building a Religious Center which, according to the Civ, might be the Kaaba, Ise Shrine, St Peter's Basilica, Mont St Michel, etc. Likewise, Great Hydroelectric Dam could be Aswan, Three Gorges, Grand Coulee, Hoover...
The idea was to include all the various suggestions that all had roughly the same purpose in a given Civ, allow the variety of architecture and culture they represented, and allow more than one such 'Wonder' to be built. Each would, of course, have a separate graphic associated with it. Since they'd be static renderings, I didn't and don't think this would be an unreasonable burden on the artists even though each category might have 6 - 10 different named structures or projects.
If you want to read the whole thing, it's over in the Trouble With Wonders Thread for the moment. I think it managed to incorporate most of the various Magnificence, Religious, and Industrial Wonders and Projects that have been suggested (although I did forget the Palace of the Soviets, which is embarrassing because I'm supposed to be an expert on the Soviet military!)

[Theben]

You know, I just realized my post on capturing wonders never made the 1st list.

Wonders are divided into "concrete" (Great Wall, Lighthouse) and "abstract" (Cure for Cancer, Women's Sufferage). Concrete wonders are captured when the city itself is captured (or tile if wonders are visible on terrain); abstract wonders are only captured when the civ itself is conquered. If more than one civ is responsible for the conquest, then each conquering civ gets a % chance to get the wonder based on the # of population points captured. Perhaps the wonder can be "conquered" before the enemy is completely overrun if wonder-sharing is allowed, % chance, per enemy city using wonder, per pop point conquered. Also other civs might be able to "conquer" wonder as well.

BTW, the modified KRC tech diffusion was meant to be vs. civs you're at war with, not contacted. And the tech diffusion bonus would only benefit the civ with the wonder.

Great summary. Keep up the good work!

[Theben]

Also forgot to say that obsolete "concrete" wonders should generate a trade bonus (tourism) in the city they belong to; +5 trade for 1 wonder, +2 per extra wonder in city.

[Cedronian]

Don't know if this has been suggested yet. I read through the list but couldn't find it so here goes:

What if, instead of building wonders, you are awarded wonders based on your civilizations greatness? The computer checks the different civilizations from time to time (preferably when you enter a new age) and awards a wonder to the civilization that is the greatest. Some might think that this would unbalance the game (rich get richer syndrome) but think about it. The game is already made in that way. When I play, I never miss a wonder that I want, I always get them and I suspect that most Civ-veterans do too.

This could infact help balance the game since a civilization can be great in most areas but often not in all, which means that the wonders would be more evenly spread out, depending on which areas certain civs have excelled at.

Oh well, just a thought.

//Jonathan

In one of my scenarios i believe renamed some wonders to
"Is There Alien Life?"
"Belief in Alien Life"
"Proof of Alien Life"

Each one was obsolete with the tech that allowed construction of the next one.
Maybe something like this can be used?

[Idiot]

One wonder that I believe should be added is the Internet wonder. It would change the later portions fo the game. This is how it would be implemented:

Every civilization can build the Internet wonder. The wonder would have the following effects: +1 trade per square in every city, effectively doubling both science and income. Those civilizations that have constructed the Internet have their civ's advances become public knowledge. Everyone who is tapped into the Internet would possess the same advances. This would make world domination after the Internet's construction difficult.

[Idiot]

One wonder that I believe should be added is the Internet wonder. It would change the later portions fo the game. This is how it would be implemented:

Every civilization can build the Internet wonder. The wonder would have the following effects: +1 trade per square in every city, effectively doubling both science and income. Those civilizations that have constructed the Internet have their civ's advances become public knowledge. Everyone who is tapped into the Internet would possess the same advances. This would make world domination after the Internet's construction difficult.
If one civilization was far ahead of the others, it would present an opportunity for those in the back of the pack to make up ground.

[johnmcd]

I would like to see a new class of wonder, the Idea Wonders (suffrage, Rights of Man (an example), Copernicus, Shakespeare etc). These would use the city's science output rather than shield output for 'construction'. They would be great ideas rather than built wonders of the world (like the Great Wall) and during 'construction' there would be no contribution to the civs science pool from that city, rather it would be stored up in a special box. The shield production could build stuff as usual. It would mean that a city could be simultaneously be working toward the human genome project whilst building the Hoover Dam. It would stop some of the wonders construction methods being ridiculous.

I would also like to add my support to the world's greatest concept.

[Matthew]

The main thig I would like to see is for the happy wonders to be balanced out a bit in MP. JSB is fine, but it shouldn't be co closely coupled to MC in technology because so often one person, and quite often a single alliance will get both. This wouldn't be such a problem if there were more factors discouraging huge cive s early on ( other than happiness) because building a cathedral in 10 or 12 cities to make up for not getting MC is almost a tolerable option. But when you're dealing with 18 or 20 cities, (and whoever builds MC is a fool if he doesn't start cranking out new cities if he can), and you have to keep up at the disadvantage of having to build a cathedral in each one, it can be quite crippling. Now if MC were to come quite a bit later in the game, or were not quite so powerful, it wouldn't be so bad. (or if it had an expiration date).

[Ruinexplorer]

Having at least skimmed through the above sections, I would add my points (as a looooong time Civ 2 and MOO 2player, new-ish SMAC and Civ:CTP player).

1)We should have Wonders AND World's Greatest. Wonders should actually be useful, whereas "World's Greatest" would be somewhat useful, but more a trade booster (by making the city more famous, popular etc.) and possible a morale booster for the citizens of the city. Knowing you live in "the city with the greatest X in the world" must please some people.

2)"Idea Wonders", ie research built wonders are ESSENTIAL. I always thought it was silly that you were _building_ "Womens Sufferage" and so on. Having some wonders being produced through science or even cash output would be a good idea and bring as sense of reality and a welcome variance to proceedings.

3)Achievement wonders should also exist, as someone said, the first person to sail around the world should get some damn respect! Getting the world's largest and most accurate map might also be a wonder, the the implementation of that leaves it in doubt. Perhaps they should be simply awards with some effect possibly a temporary (though long term) one.

4)Naming wonders is a good idea, as it would help to escape from Western and America-centrism. No insult to the West or the US, but it is annoying to be building the Statue of Liberty or Michaelangelo's Cathedral if you are the Mongols or the Greeks! (As a side not I would hope there are more than four city-styles this time round... I ended up playing Civ 2 with the "Doom" mod to escape the monotony... 14 styles ala SMAC-X would be plenty).

5)I disagree VIOLENTLY that all wonders should be visble. All "World's Greatest" should be visible, but I think some people need to "think outside the box" more. This is Civ III, not Civ II with new graphics and added stuff. We need a "paradigm shift", not repetion with enhancement. Less tangaible wonders should be doable, at a cost, like, say, a surveying project like that done by Britain in the 18th-early 20th centuries, which should reveal all terrain in your territory. It's cost would vary depending on how much there was to do. The Internet is a must wonder-wise, and I'd hate too see it go just because it isn't visible. That said, silly wonders, like the pyramids, could go, and be replaced by more "realistic" ones. SMAC's secret projects are pretty good for this.

6) The is pretty out there, but I'm all for it- Wonders should be destructible! Physical ones at least. After all, the real Great Library was destoyed. You can blow up the Eiffel Tower, or the Hoover dam, you can detach the cable on the Space Elevator (which I hope will make it to Civ III... Futuretech is good), and so on. Obviously this would piss people off, and it would take less time to rebuild the wonder than it did to build it in the first place, but it would be pretty cool, and again, add a sense of reality and tension. Real-life wonders are often targeted by terrorists (almost always unsucessfully, so your diplomat/spy/probe team wiould have a hard time of things and a low chance of success, the bigger and more important the wonder the lower the chance), so it would make sense. "Worlds Greatest" should definately be destructible.

7) I also agree that different civs should be able to build the same wonders in certain cases at least. Particularly with religious/happiness wonders, which would not necessarily translate and which arguably have equals elsewhere in the world depending on what cultural perspective you look at it from.

8) I would introduce "Landmark" wonder-like features, where you could spend a certain amount to promote a landmark near your cities, like Ayre's Rock, or Mount Everest, and gain some bonus that way. This would be similar to "World's Greatest", and if a mountain is discovered by another civ to be taller than yours, or a rock bigger, they can take the title from you by spending the appropriate amount. You could also base this on SMAC-style landmarks.

9) Certain wonders are silly and should go or be modified. King Richard's Crusades for example sounds to be simply like a player switching all his cities to producing military units and going off to raid another civ not "doubling production in city which it is based in". Is it useful? Yes... Should it stay? No. Why does the Pyramids give a _granary_ in every city... A temple maybe, but a granary? That sort of thing needs ot change, IMHO.

Again, SMAC made a much better job of this, with it's Wonders being much more logical, with most of the "give an x in every city" giving an effect similar to the thing rather than being like thing itself. If you get my meaning. I'm not sure I do 8)

10)More futuristic and "could-have-been" wonders, and more obscure and non-western wonders, like Kublai Khan's "Pleasure Dome".
I'm sure we and Firaxis can come up with examples. Many of the current wonders are based on things there is only limited evidence for, and there are tonnes of exciting wonders waiting to be used.

I propose one (apparently a real one) called
"The Defenses of Archimedes", based on the bizarre but effective weapons used by Archimedes to defend his home city in Sicily.
Apparently they ranged from a variety of projectile hurlers with varying ranges to "claws" (perhaps rather like cranes) which grabbed ship and tilted them over or sunk them (pretty easy to do on a trireme-style ship). It kept the Romans at bay for two long years and really "hacked them off". Eventually the pro-peace party let the Romans in through the gates and they killed alot of the cities inhabitants, including, sadly, Archimedes himself.

"The Defenses of Archimedes" would make the city immune to sea-based attacks and give a bonus vs land attacks until made obselete, and could be gained from the Mathematics or Physics advance.

Cool, huh? I'm well pleased with it... I hope I was the first person to think of it... It seems to me perfect as a wonder as it is unique, amazing and useful. I'm suprised it hasn't been used already.

Conclusion) That's enough for now... please let me know what you think!

Oh PS! 11) "Agency" wonders are a cool idea, as are "Universal wonders" (I believe SMAC has one or two and Civ 2 has the Manhattan project). Universal Wonders should have additional benefical effects for the civ who actually owns it.



------------------
"You're standing on my neck."

[EnochF]

Thanks, Ruin! Glad to see some people are still taking the list seriously.

[Ruinexplorer]

Just to add another wonder: Airforce One.

Obviously Airforce One is the leader of the civilization's personal Aircraft. It is more or less impossible to destroy without all-out war and allows the leader to visit other Civs safely.

I would suggest that it should be a wonder (as it is maintained and upgraded continually) which gives some kind of bonus to diplomacy, perhaps opening embassies with all nations with whom the players is not at war (opening and closing them according to war status), but certainly some kind of bonus in negotiations, as it is both a symbol of power and allows more direct contact with one's fellow leaders. It should also negate the penalties for the HQ city being taken over, at least for certain Gov. types, as the leader should automatically escape and be able to maintain contact with his other cities.

------------------
"You're standing on my neck."

[mwaf]

sorry for not reading through this to check if the same idea has come up before.....


Great wall
A concrete wall on the map, place after wonder built, can be built further if done directly after wonder complete (not after that), a wall that can't be crossed (exception: diplomat/spy), can be destroyed if attacked with cannon or better unit (of same type, not cavalry for example).

[Melboz]

I think some wonders should be like the wall idea. Something similar to landmarks in smac, only man-made! These would be captureable. Example: Panama Canal. Causes a nice gate between continents, if you can hold it!

Good luck all you programers at assenbling this data. This game looks like a great one!

[Ribannah]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Ecce Homo on 09-03-1999 04:29 AM</font>
Mark Everson wrote that Wonders counting as one improvement in each city should be disable-able (?), as they are unbalanced. I agree. The effects of a Wonder/WG should be limited to the host city.
1999).]</font>
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
I absolutely disagree. Instead, building an empire of a great many cities should be discouraged, for instance by slowing down early growth.

------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[EdwardTKing]

I have some ideas about LandMarks/Projects/Wonders.

As described here they all assume CIV3 is like CIV2.
Clearly they would require some translation for CIV3.


LANDMARKS may be built at points on the map; other than cities, by sending settler/engineer to a point and then sending caravans/freight to a point to accumulate necessary shields. A landmark would have a minimum build time (which might be decreased by having multiple engineers etc) in addition to a shield input.
Landmarks would have a specific geographical impact.
A Landmark would belong to the last civilisation on the landmark square (rather like an airbase/fortress). Construction of a landmark would be an alternative to a fortress or air base; so you would have similar dilemmas: build it on a mountain (take longer but be defensable or on grassland - more likely to be captured!. Landmarks could not be built within 2 squares of any city. This would force you to defend them; battles for landmarks (change from fighting for cities!) would have a value in themselves unlike airbases or fortresses. Furthermore the ICS fanatics won't be able to build them if their cities are too dense!

PROJECTS once built are independent of cities; they can be built by perhaps requiring 3 cities to each build a project stage. If you have perhaps two stages built; and then another tribe finishes its third stage; your two built stages might be perhaps randomly lost or stored for another project.

WONDERS are as known to us all.


1. LANDMARK "Ascent of the Prophet"

This can only be built on hills or mountains. It increases the effect of Temples and Cathedrals by

+ 1 happies for cities in 8 squares; but
+ 2 happies for cities in 5 squares; and
+ 3 happies for cities in 3 squares of Ascent.

2. LANDMARK "Casino/Las Vegas"

Each turn there is a 5% chance that each of your opponents tribes will visit and if they visit

10% chance have to auto- sell all
(of a random improvement) to pay gambling debts)
10% chance give you all their gold
10% chance give you 25 of their gold
10% chance give you 10% of your gold; but
10% chance they win 10% of your gold off you

The effectivemess of the Casino may depend where
it is built. Extra effective in desert or oasis.

3. LANDMARK "Disneyland"

Increases Effect of Entertainers by

3 for cities within 3 squares of Disneyland
2 for cities within 6 squares of Disneyland

or perhaps it just creates happy citizens.

4. LANDMARK "Grave of the Unknown Soldier"

Increases Hit Points of each of your units by:

1 for units within 4 to 5 squares of the Grave
but 2 for units within 3 squares of the Grave.

5. LANDMARK "Judgement Jail/Punishment Penitentiary"

This really frightens bad guys in the neighbourhood decreasing crime by:

1 for cities within 8 squares, but
2 for cities within 5 squares; and
3 for cities within 3 squares.

6. LANDMARK "Many Worlds/Quantum Node"

Increases science (due to electron probability idea leakage between scientists and their counterparts in other realities) by

1 for each scientist within 8 squares; but
2 for each scientist within 5 squares; and
3 for each scientist within 3 squares.

7. LANDMARK "Pleasure Palace"

This provides happy citizens:

1 for cities within 8 squares, but
2 for cities within 5 squares; and
3 for cities within 3 squares.

Perhaps it should provide 2, 4 & 6 happies, but
remove religious (Temple or Cathedral) Happies
on the basis that the pleasures of the flesh in
this world are incompatible with the happiness of preparing for the afterlife?

8. LANDMARK "RadarControl"

Increases Fire Power of Fighters and Stealth Fighters
in Air to Air Combat by:

1 for combat within 6 squares of RadarControl; but
2 for combat within 2 squares of RadarControl.

This would apply to Fighters attacking Bombers or
when being bombed on airbases or Cities. There would be no change with ground units.

9. LANDMARK "Treasury"

This increases the effect of Tax Collectors by:

1 for each taxman within 8 squares; but
2 for each taxman within 5 squares; and
3 for each taxman within 3 squares.

but be careful where you build it. If another tribe captures it off you; you lose half your gold to them!


10. PROJECT "AirforceOne"

Enable you to move palace to any of your cities.

11. PROJECT "Accountants Academy"

You receive half the one off initial trade bonus
when other tribes send you caravans/freights!

12. PROJECT "Camp David/Carter Memorial"

Doubles the probability that another tribe will make peace with you in negotiations and gives you a new menu option enabling you to propose that two other tribes make peace.

13. PROJECT "Fifth Column/Quisling/Subversion"

Half the trade output of the most wealthy two cities of your enemy (or enemies) would be diverted to you.

14. PROJECT "GoldenGate Bridge"

Enables Engineers in boat to build a road and even a railroad across the ocean.

15. PROJECT "Lawyers Logic"

This might halve the amount AIs demand off you; and double what they will pay (whether funds area available or not?) in tribute. For humans it might
means that every time your human opponent initiates
negotiations they have to pay you 5% of their gold.

16. PROJECT "Panama Canal"

Enables Engineers to convert low lying squares; e.g. Grassland/Plain/Swamp to sea. This means you can build as canal across an isthmus or connect a land locked city to the sea. (I hate having a land locked city with sea squares for which you can not build a Harbour or an Offshore Platform!)

17. PROJECT "Religious Tolerance"

Enables you to have two temples or two cathedrals
in your cities.

18. PROJECT "DDay"

Enables all land units to amphibious assault.

19. WONDER "Cold Fusion"

This might increase moves of modern vehicles (Armour, Freight, Mechanised Infantry) by two. This might apply generally (Magellan's land version) or just for units built in Wonder City.

20. WONDER "Convention Capital"

There is a random chance that other tribes' caravans or freights will forget their orders and head for your city and on arrival give you 50% of the time gold or other 50% contribute to your production.

The probability of diversion might be:

5% for caravans/freight within 10 squares
10% for caravans/freight within 8 squares
...
90% if one square away.

Humans could change orders after diversion; but AIs?

21. WONDER "FreeSpeech or Article nn of Constitution"

This would double the cost to your opponent's of
bribing your cities and/or units. It might double cost of city going into disorder too?!

22. WONDER "International Court of Justice/World Court"

This might halve the amount AIs demand off you; and double what they will pay (whether funds area available or not?) in tribute. For humans it might
means that every time your human opponent initiates
negotiations they have to pay you 5% of their gold.

23. WONDER "World Trade Organisation"

Enables Host City to Have 6 Caravan Routes
or perhaps just trebles the impact of trade routes.

----------------------------------------------------

As CIV3 will be very different from CIV2; I have not drawn up any enabling technologies and possible obsolescence of LandMarks/Projects or new Wonders.
Some would depend upon government. For example
accountant would not function under communism or despotism, lawyers would not work under despotism or monarchy while free speech would be suspended under fundamentalism. Fundamentalism might boost the Ascent of the Prophet.


What do you think??

[OzzyKP]

I'm not a regular in the Civ 3 idea forum, so this may have been covered before, but a wonder i have always thought would be a good idea is a Transcontenental Railroad wonder that would upgrade all roads in the builder's civilization to railroads. It would be a more appropriate wonder to go along with rail road than darwin's voyage.

------------------
“Dear Mother
Dear Father
Every thought I’d think you’d disapprove
Curator
Dictator
Always censoring my every move
Children are seen but are not heard
Tear out everything inspired”
- Metallica “Dyers Eve”

[OzzyKP]

One more idea that i just came up with while skimming through some of these posts is to have a Famous Person or cultural icon that you could build. They would have functions like a wonder but would be very expensive units. These units could opperate like normal units but would give benifits to whatever city the unit was in or whatever civilization owned the unit.

The units would be famous people through time, like someone could build a Leonardo Da Vinci, or a Shakespere, or an Albert Einstein. And the units themselves would function like wonders and confer special benifits like a wonder.

I think this would offer a bit more realism to the game regarding famous people, rather than having a "Shakespeares theater" you could instead build shakespeare. The unit could be killed or bribed (though very expensive) or captured in a city.



------------------
Dear Mother
Dear Father
Every thought I d think you d disapprove
Curator
Dictator
Always censoring my every move
Children are seen but are not heard
Tear out everything inspired
- Metallica Dyers Eve

[OzzyKP]

And will these ideas really have any effect upon the new game whatsoever or are we just talking fantasy? Are the game developers actually going to read this stuff?

[DarkCloud]

Lucasfilm and the Natural Wonders should NOT be able to be built.

P.S. How is Lucasfilm of all things a Wonder!?!?

[Theben]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by OzzyKP on 09-23-2000 04:05 AM</font>a wonder i have always thought would be a good idea is a Transcontenental Railroad wonder that would upgrade all roads in the builder's civilization to railroads. It would be a more appropriate wonder to go along with rail road than darwin's voyage.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I did suggest a while back the "Trans-Siberian Railroad". The effect I asked for was 1/2 construction time for RR's and to have all of your cities on that continent (or all your cities on all continents) immediately connected by rail. donDon's suggestion to de-link RR's from regular roads would make this much more powerful as well.

But your idea sounds good too.

AFAIK, what we're doing right now is fleshing out possible ideas for when (hopefully) Firaxis comes back and says, "These are our rough ideas which we plan to incorporate," at which time discussion will shift to what we want those ideas to look like in the game. Until then all discussion options are open.

Sound pointless? That didn't stop us before back when we didn't know if anyone was listening or if even there would be a civ3. The feedback we've gotten so far is unheard of in the gaming industry. And recall yin26's maximum, "If just one idea makes it into civ3..." we've accomplished a lot. And we have.

[Internationalist]

If olympics is going to be a wonder, my suggestions:Old Olympics would give all military units of the keeper the ability to bypass city walls.Modern Olympics would make all civs every 10-15 turns to cease fire for 1-3 turns(military units cannot attack).Also it would giv a random civ(different every time) 15% more credits than it should generate normally(the Hosting City effect).