Diplogame faq and multiplayer reference guide

CapTVK · January 29, 2000, 16:02

DIPLOGAME FAQ AND MULTIPLAYER REFERENCE GUIDE

ver 0.30

1. Foreword
2. Diplogames
2.1 What are diplogames?
2.2 How long does a diplogame take?
2.3 What sort of settings are used?
2.4 Do I really need 7 players to play a diplogame?
2.5 Can players be replaced or join in later?
2.6 What's the point of playing such a game?
2.7 How should I start?
3. Diplogames: Special Rules and guidelines
3.2 GeoPolitics
4. Multiplayer reference guide
4.1 Introduction *
4.1.1 Required software & patches
4.1.2 Can I play Civ2MP with ToT?
4.1.3 What's the best way to contact (new) players?
4.2 Gameplay
4.3 Etiquette
4.4 Cheating
4.5 Variants
5. Time zones
6. Threads and other links
6.1 Diplogames
6.2 Etiquette
6.3 Strategy
6.4 Discussions about diplogames
7. Other sources

1.Foreword
This faq is intended as a reference for playing diplogames or large scale multiplayer games. Subjects discussed in this thread will include: defining diplogames, rules, player etiquette, setting up games, cheating, time zones etc...

Most of these subjects have already been discussed in previous threads. For the benefit of the reader these threads will appear as links in categorized order.

Note: This thread should be seen as an evolving document, in the sense that it will never be 'finished'. In time it will turn into a proper faq organized by category, chapter and subject. Every week I will post a new thread about one category/subject (etiquette for example). All people are free to help out and discuss the subject. From time to time if I see a good post or another relevant subject I will make an addition by posting this message in the thread: Category-subject-<article+authors>, which means that it will be added to the FAQ.

2.1 What are diplogames?
Looking through the threads you'll find countless definitions of diplogames. In summary a diplogames comes down to this: A longterm Civ2MP game with 5-7 players who try to resolve problems by diplomacy. Managing your civ is not enough. You try to play a 'leader' thus roleplaying in a diplogame is as important as gaming skills. An eloquent speaker who uses tact can get the same work done as the no.1 in the game, if he speaks up.
The Diplomacy takes place in the form of negotiations, treaties, special alliances, pacts and in the end...WAR. To keep track of historic events players will be required to post their view on events on a public forum. Everyone is free how to write his own posts it can be funny, formal, boring...anything is allowed as long as your message gets through. Just read through the diplogame threads for examples.
CapTVK also made a PDF version of "Tales from the Diplomatic Front II (in 3D-Dolby Stereo)" for offline reading. It's available here: http://home.worldonline.nl/~thomas

2.2 How long does a diplogame take?
Played on a weekly basis with 4-6 hours per session a full diplogame can last 6-12 months.

2.3 What sort of settings are used?[*]Normal Production and Normal movement.[*]Large map, random or preset. Usually played on a random map but diplogamers also enjoy the worldmap for the historic perspective (this also makes it easier for outsiders to follow the game).[*]Barbarians: restless tribes or barbarian hordes[*]Small landmass setting: this way players won't have so much room for expansion and must start to negotiate much earlier.

2.4 Do I really need 7 players to play a diplogame?
5 players will work fine. What is important is the size of the central 'core' (3-4) players. It's the 'core' that's responsible for keeping the game going.

2.5 Can players be replaced or join in later?
As long as a civ is available anyone can join in. It's inevitable that players will drop off due to other obligations so it's good if there are subs available to take their place. Just ask some of the core players if you can join. If you want to play for one session that's fine but players who want to play for a couple sessions or want to become a permanent sub are preferred.

2.6 What's the point of playing such a game?
For one thing diplogames are a good way to learn Civ2MP and learn to negotiate. It will also be learning experience for all players involved. Winning or losing isn't important in this sort of game, it's the story of reaching the end...

This is also a nice summary...
<center><table width=80%><tr><td>quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
A real education eh Nappy? A freind of mine called Rah once asked me on another thread what was the 'point' of playing a diplomatic game where the objective is not to win. I told him that one of advantages of diplomatic games was that they taught you how to play Civ to a much higher standard and a lot more intensively than mute two or three player duels could ever do. I hope he reads the posts above from myself, Nappy and Glohithia as all are reporting that they are learning massively from this game, and talking about things they will do 'next time'. I predict that this group will contain many of the worlds finest players by our third or fourth game, all of which would have learned their craft from the most intensive way to play Civ. Just a theory.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></td></tr></table></center>

2.7 How should I start?
I recommend by trying to find an established group of core players. The player with the fastest and most stable connection should be the host. Once you have those issues settled you can start playing and posting. I recommend that you post the rules, settings and playing times in the first post. This way newcomers and aspiring subs know what to expect.

3. Diplogames: Special rules
......[*]No city bribing rule with human is usually a standard rule.[*]No rude language or personal insults that fall outside the context of the game.[*]No Excessive city switching [*]Trading of wonders is allowed but it should be limited to special wonders (LEO's, SOL). Double use in one turn is not allowed (e.a two players could keep switching Mike's every turn and both would get the benefits).

3.2 GeoPolitics
The use geopolitics in diplogames
"Always make the best of your location, even when it sucks..."
Geopolictics, or the politics of geography, is based on the recognition that certain areas of the world are valuable for the political reasons. The term geopolitics, first used in the end of the nineteenth century, described a process well under way in international relations. Statesmen influenced by geopolitcal concerns recognized the strategic value of land. Some territory was considered important because of its proximity to aquired colonies or to territory targeted for takeover. France, for example, occupied thousands of square miles of the Sahara Desert to protect its interest in Algeria. Other territory was important because of its proximity to sea routes. Egypt had significance for Great Britain not because of any economic potential but because it controlled the entrance to the Suez canal which ensured a safe and secure British access to India.
"Try to control areas as quickly as possible. You don't have to settle, just control it and use that land as a strategic resource"
A third geopolitical motive for annexation was the necissity of fueling bases throughout the world. Faster and more reliable than wind-powered, coal-powered ships were, nonetheless, dependent on guranteed fueling bases in friendly ports of call. Islands in the South Pacific and the Indian Ocean were acuired primarily to serve as fueling stations for the great steamers carrying manafactured goods to colonial ports and returning with foodstuffs and raw materials. Note the importance of colonies, in a diplogame naval bases (with ships and troops) also guarantee a place at the negotiating table, so try to establish a few colonies outside your own region, even when your a small player. The naval aspect of Civ2 is severely underrated, partly due to ships having such a low movement rate. When playing a diplogame on the worldmap you should increase naval movement of ALL ships in the rules.txt by two to emphasize the naval factor.
In turn, the aquisition of territories justified the increase of naval budgets and the size of fleets. Britain still had the world's largest navy, but by the beginning of the twentieth century, the US and Germany had entered the competition for dominace of sea-lanes. Japan joined the contest by expanding its navy as a vehicle for its own claims to empire in the Pacific. The politics of geography was land- as well as sea-based. As navies grew to protect sea-lanes, armies expanded to police new lands. A side effect of the growing importance of geopolitics was the increased influence of military and naval superiority in foreign policy.Once again I emphasize the naval factor, later ships like the frigate and ironclads should have more ATT and HP to increase their strategic importance when playing on the worldmap (e.a gunboat policy).

4. Multiplayer reference guide

4.1 Introduction

4.1.1 Required software & patches
All games are played with the 1.3 patch for windows or the 1.1.1 patch for the Mac. They can be obtained at: http://support.microprose.com/ http://www.wizworks.com/macsoft/mact...IGold_ftp.html

4.1.2 Can I play Civ2MP with ToT?
No, ToT uses a new format. Because of this you won't be play in a Civ2MP match.

4.1.3 What's the best way to contact new players?
Nearly all Civ2 players use ICQ and will have their ICQ number listed somewhere. ICQ is a userfriendly online messenger service which will notify you when people come online, and you contact them at once by simple sending a message by ICQ. The most recent version is 2000a and can be downloaded from: www.mirabilis.com

4.2 Gameplay
.........

4.3 Etiquette
..........

4.4 Cheating
This FAQ would become too long if we went into the discussion of what is considered a cheat, a bug or an undocumented game feature. Therefore I leave this to your personal judgement. Nonetheless it pays to be informed about the known bugs. This way you can decide beforehand with the other players what is considered a cheat and what is not. Ming maintains a list of all known bugs/cheats (quite a list) and features on this link. http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000244.html

4.5 Multiplayer variants
[*]Standard MP[*]Tournaments[*]Bloodlust[*]Diplogames
....

5. Time zones
Civ2MP games are played across several time zones. Here's a quick summary

Time Zone Abbreviations
European
GMT Greenwich Mean Time, as UTC
BST British Summer Time, as UTC+1 hour
CET Central Europe Time, as UTC+1
CEST Central Europe Summer Time, as UTC+2
EET Eastern Europe Time, as UTC+2
EEST Eastern Europe Summer Time, as UTC+3

US and Canada
EST Eastern Standard Time, as UTC-5 hours
EDT Eastern Daylight Saving Time, as UTC-4 hours
CST Central Standard Time, as UTC-6 hours
CDT Central Daylight Saving Time, as UTC-5 hours
MST Mountain Standard Time, as UTC-7 hours
MDT Mountain Daylight Saving Time, as UTC-6 hours
PST Pacific Standard Time, as UTC-8 hours
PDT Pacific Daylight Saving Time, as UTC-7 hours

Australia
WST Western Standard Time, as UTC+8 hours e.g. Perth
CST Central Standard Time, as UTC+9.5 hours e.g. Darwin
EST Eastern Standard/Summer Time, as UTC+10 hours

Example:
If you live in Europe[*]at 20:00 CET in the evening it's:[*]19:00 GMT in the UK[*]14:00 EST on the US eastcoast

6. Threads and other links

6.1 Diplogames
----------------------------
Tales from the Front http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000351.html
The first diplogame I've seen (dated jan16 1999). It isn't really a diplogame in the proper sense but it hints of thing to come...

An Open Letter to All Nations http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000611.html
The first real diplogame, apparently also the first game that was played till the end.

More Tales from the Diplomatic Front http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000699.html
This diplogame ended with a whimper, everybody lost interest.

Tales from the front II, in 3D http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000466.html
Why diplo attacks can be so much fun...

Tales from the front III, in 3D http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000591.html
The 2nd part of 'tales from the front'. This one had an ending, sort of...

Tales from a weekend game http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000693.html

European Tales from the diplomatic front http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000751.html
The first diplogame that actually posted a map(now gone), too bad it fizzled out.

EuroDip Side Thread: Africa http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000770.html
Sidethread for the above.

Tales from the Diplomatic Front II (in 3D-Dolby Stereo) http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000623.html
The biggest diplogame ever including weekly updated maps. This game had everything, if only all diplogames could be this good! Also check: http://home.worldonline.nl/~thomas for an offline version in pdf.

Tales From The (Still) Diplomatic Front II http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000809.html
The 2nd part, Emotions ran high at some points but concluding with a surprise ending!

6.2 Etiquette
----------------------------
Diplomatic Games: How does one get involved in one? http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000827.html
Advice on starting or entering an ongoing diplogame.

BAN NUKES http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000481.html
Diplogames last long enough to develop nuclear weapons. This thread discusses some of the implications.

The big lie in MP: is draconian retribution justified? http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000456.html
interesting post on how we should react to players who appear at our borders, establish cities but don't show hostile intentions (yet?).

Is the Diplomat the most Powerful Unit. http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000385.html
Most newbies underestimate the power of diplomats and caravans. This thread discusses the use of diplomats in the game.

MP trade etiquette http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000947.html
An important fact about using caravans in a diplogame.

Is this cheating? http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000405.html
Another trade cheat hmmm...

Super production bug! http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000326.html
Another cheat by using lag.

Pollution: How it can ruin a multiplayer game http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000361.html
Pollution squares will mess up everyone in a diplogame. Who pays the piper? We do!

Is this an old one??? I just figured it out. MP... sucks. http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/001181.html
A map related cheat, who said that clicking mindlessy will get you nowhere?

Tales from the War of the Ages... http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000710.html
A very important thread. This thread shows why one shouldn't make false accusations without proof, it damages the falsely accused and the one making the accusation.

6.3 Strategy
----------------------------
For good advice on strategy you should go to the strategy forum but sometimes we discuss MP-strategies which can be useful in diplogames.

How to beat ICS? http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/001161.html
ICS can be an easy way to win. The question still isn't resolved...

6.4 Discussions about diplogames
----------------------------
There already have been some good discussions about diplogames in general, here are some of the best

HaHa Diplomatic Suckers. http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000752.html
Pardon?, a good thread though. Never judge a thread by it's cover.

Diplomacy games???? What the #*^%!@*%$ http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000686.html
This one is even better

A game of diplomacy http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000572.html
A long thread about diplogames, probably the best. You'll find some very good feedback from John Barbarossa in this thread.

Tales from the diplomatic front http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000603.html
A very good diplogame with good arguments by John Barbarossa.

7. Other sources
Civilization II: Scrolls of Ancient Wisdom http://ltswww.epfl.ch/~winkler/civ2.html
This site shows some of the tricks and formulas used in Civ2.

[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited April 29, 2000).]

CapTVK · January 30, 2000, 17:48

First update, this one for the etiquette links (this link will be incorporated into the faq)

Tales from the War of the Ages... http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000710.html
A very important thread. This thread shows why one shouldn't make false accusations without proof, it damages the falsely accused and the one making the accusation.

Ming · January 31, 2000, 01:12

Exellent Job!!!!!!

Thanks for the hard work!

------------------
Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

CapTVK · February 4, 2000, 19:10

An open letter to all nations http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000611.html
This gem was hidden pretty well. Be sure to check out frankdog's link.

Insulted... http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/000735.html
Discussion about taking a peek at the map

All major links seem to be here now.Will start to properly organize the FAQ this weekend.
[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited February 04, 2000).]

CapTVK · February 12, 2000, 16:21

Well, ver 0.20 is up now. Now find a way to come up with some questions!

John Barbarossa · February 24, 2000, 19:37

Just got here TVK. What a job. What a job!

Warm Regards
John Barbarossa

CapTVK · March 1, 2000, 12:18

Medium update. Some additions and completed the timezone chapter.

CapTVK · March 25, 2000, 05:13

A *bump* is in order while I work on some new stuff for the FAQ

KenThur · March 25, 2000, 07:53

CapTVK; once again we Civers owe a debt of immense gratitude!!
As 1 of the beginning-to-end Big Diplo II participants, it is gratifying to see the lessons, fun, & excitement of Diplo-Civ contests preserved & passed on.

To all interested parties:
I strongly encourage U to participate in one of these contests! However, i would also strongly advise that U check your ego at the door before entering a contest of this skill & maturity. Because, as in real life, in order to maximize what U start with, U must learn the essential art & skill of COOPERATION.

In a Diplo-Civ game... by definition:
1> a team can have only one, #1 player at any given time;
2> no ONE Civ or player can win this sort of contest... no matter how big the Civ may be or how good U think U are;
3> it is NOT over until the 1st spaceship REACHES Alpha-Centuri (forget the other "victory" condition, the alliances will crush U if U try);
4> there will always be 6 non-“supreme” Civ's... so learn how to work with what U have & with other leaders.
===========================================
As any that followed the "Tales from the Diplo Front, Dolbey Stereo" knew, i (Milo/Vikings) had one of the "puniest" civ's ever to play a Civ MP contest. This was due to: (A) starting position, (B) not knowing we were playing on "Earth", & (C) dumb initial city placements (we all have to learn, right?). But by sticking with it & realizing/admitting that I would never be the #1 power (sort of like the Swiss or Swedes will ever be"#1"), I was able to have a rousing good time!  All by working with, against(gr-r-r-r), & thru the parade of other players. The ultimate reward was achieved by fantastic TEAMWORK with 2 other civ's be part of the winning TEAM that provided the "surprise ending" Cap refers to above. NEVER give up & honor your commitments / promises(unless of course, circumstances change

).

IMPORTANT... it is a given that the AI or a sub will HAVE to take over your Civ for a number turns during a contest of this size & length. So please go into it with that understanding. But therein, lays another of the beauties of a true diplo game; your friends & allies (+ by adjusting your Civ's attitudes toward other Civ’s before leaving) will standup for & protect your long-term interests during your absence.

PS: try to get CapTV in your game so you can have those wonderful maps he does. Now if only he could somehow do those for a random map, then the spectators could follow things & the players could have the fun & excitement of starting on an unknown world!
------------------
"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited August 05, 2000).]

Dr Greenthumb · March 25, 2000, 19:59

Cap. TVK, you've answered a lot of my questions and i know how to conduct myself while playing. But, the big question still remains: how do i play? i guess what i'm looking for is a "big brother" type to walk me through the first few weeks of a game. so, if anyone wants to help out the new guy, i'd appreciate it a lot.

CapTVK · March 31, 2000, 17:11

<center><table width=80%><tr><td>quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
Originally posted by Dr Greenthumb on 03-25-2000 06:59 PM
Cap. TVK, you've answered a lot of my questions and i know how to conduct myself while playing. But, the big question still remains: how do i play? i guess what i'm looking for is a "big brother" type to walk me through the first few weeks of a game. so, if anyone wants to help out the new guy, i'd appreciate it a lot.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></td></tr></table></center>

Greenthumb,
The best way to learn a diplogame is to play and if there's any piece of advice it's this: keep talking

Playing as one of the smaller civ's can be difficult in a diplogame. There'll be a Geopolitics section with some strategies in the coming FAQ.

In other news:
Thanks to a renewed interest in diplogames I've decided to do another major update. Expect ver 0.35-0.39 next week.

CapTVK · April 2, 2000, 15:21

One of the things I learned is that creating a FAQ is one thing, maintaining it another. Keeping track of updates and editing the post in such a tiny edit area can be a pain.
If you see '*' in the index and before the text it means it's new. If you see '#' in the index it means an update/revision.

[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited April 02, 2000).]

CapTVK · April 6, 2000, 18:49

The first part of the Geopolitics is up, part two will focus more on Civ2MP and diplogames in particular. I could use some feedback on this, so if you have anything to say. Just say it...

CapTVK · April 16, 2000, 07:54

The FAQ is slowly getting complete, one piece at a time, almost nearing ver .30

I added the link to Ming's excellent Civ2 bug list, updated the FAQ's and started working on including the external links. Check out Scrolls of Ancient Wisdom it's a very good page with plenty of tips.

CapTVK · April 29, 2000, 06:07

Well I've finally reached Ver.30. From now on the focus will be more on Civ2MP in general (gameplay, rules etc..). This doesn't mean that the Diplo part of this FAQ is complete, as it isn't. But I'll concentrate more on civ2MP for the coming month. This part of the FAQ has been empty for a while and it's ready to be filled.

[Test:Is this red?]
What's the matter with these fonts? The moment you try to edit it all previous font codes are no longer recognized.

[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited April 29, 2000).]

KenThur · April 29, 2000, 09:31

Dr G: as a start-to-finish vet of the epic, "Big Diplo II", i can shed some light.
But first a Q 2 U: Is your doctorate in "Slacking"?

As for this "mental sport"...
For the most part, start a diplo game as U would any game.
A> KNOW WHAT THE SETTINGS ARE. Particularly what map parameters were used to create the world.
B> Take the time/turns to find a good / great capitol city location.
C> Hut-hunt with reckless abandon = more of everything U will need, including tech's for trading.
*qualifier: barb setting; if less than raging or restless there is very little reason to worry about protecting early cities(also learn about WHEN barbs start showing up in ANY game)
D> By definition, any human U make contact with = a "friend" to start trading & coordinating tech's with... find others asap!
*qualifer: if another player is totally ignoring normal defense (ie, U find his empty city) U should use that as a "bargaining chip". If he is not willing to share something for sparing his city... then take it. Diplomacy isn't just about love & kisses, it IS about winning in the end. Note: U can always give it back & in many cases, will HAVE TO... but U have taught him & others a lesson (plus U get to keep the gold & tech that he wouldn't give U)

E> DO NOT immediately trade maps with anyone. That is a very valuable piece of info & should be thought thru & negotiated before sharing. Even when establishing preliminary borders, i would be careful. Ultimately U may find a better, more lucrative relationship.
F> There WILL BE a long run in this game, so think in those terms. Do things like build roads toward other civ's U find & DO WHAT U SAY U WILL.
G> Trade will end up THE most POWERFUL force on this world. So become friends/allies with the civ's FARTHEST away & on other continents. (Major reason for hint "E>" above).
H> Talk / suck up / flatter the other rulers. Both in game chat & even better, in your posts here!
*for example: Doctor, you are one of THE smartest, sharpest, best Civ players i'v ever had the pleasure to read here on these posts. Your magnanimous generosity & enlightened rule of your Civ is a credit to you, your dynasty, & the great citizens of ________! What a GUY! (Now, about those borders & trades we were discussing...)

I> Use these forum posts for the other extreme also; if U are pissed off, feel used, or just want posture yourself in preparation/justification for a war of _________. Do it or "hint" at it in the open. Give others a chance to respond... for or against. The WORST thing any ruler can do in a diplo game is SNEAK attack. Nothing else comes close to making a bunch of instant enemies & ruining the game! ):
J> Have fun with it. Help the good guys & gang up on the bad guys.

------------------
"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"
[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited August 05, 2000).]

CapTVK · April 29, 2000, 14:20

Noooooooo!, some of the links are missing!!!

CapTVK · May 30, 2000, 07:26

Everytime I bump "tales from the front-II" thread there's a massive response to start a new diplogame, coincidence?

Anyway a word of caution: "Take your time and get organized!"
Make it clear by what rules your playing and what's not allowed (cheating, specific chances to the units etc..). You don't need to spell out everything, just make it clear to the players.

One piece of advice when your playing on the worldmap. Give all your naval vessels (tiremes and up) 2 extra movement points and some extra HP/ATT/DEF here and there (I'll leave that one open to discussion). Naval power is relatively undervalued in a diplo game but with these settings the balance is restored.

CapTVK · July 27, 2000, 16:39

Once every few months this question keeps popping up. Time for a bump!

KenThur · August 5, 2000, 04:31

Testing, 1,2,3
Do U still have me in here?
=========================
Well, i'll be dogged... me & my password are still up here. (damn, don't U'll ever clean out the old stuff?!)

Couldn't resist peeking at the old addiction again.

Hi, guy(& gals)! Amazing isn't it, how this game just keeps on, keeping on. Whew!

Wish i was retired or could win the lotto so i could devout the time this hobby/sport requires.

Darned if Cap isn't still dredging up this (great) old Diplo stuff. If i had known U were going to perpetuate these posts forever, i would have spell-checked & cleared up my ramblings!
Which i now must do... so new readers of these don't think i'm THAT dumb.

PS: that added features & enhancements are amazing. NICE WORK gentlemen!

------------------
"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited August 05, 2000).]

CapTVK · August 5, 2000, 17:52

Nice to see you still pass by on occasions Kenthur, still minding the store?

Maybe I should also add to the FAQ that playing a diplogame from start to finish acts like a very effective shock treatment against civ addiction?

[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited August 05, 2000).]

carnide_ · August 5, 2000, 18:38

Marvelous, stunning, excellent job.

Thanx.

Epik · November 18, 2000, 17:05

I was wondering how the Diplo games were played and I found this excellent post by CapTVK.

However many of the links in his orginal post are dead (Not Found Messages).

Ming... is there any way that you can reactivate those links?

Thanks.
[This message has been edited by Epik (edited November 18, 2000).]

OzzyKP · November 19, 2000, 00:03

A few other Diplogames to add to your list:

Tales From the Diplomatic Front V
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/001433.html?152
Perhaps the longest running Diplo game in history (again talking out of my ass no doubt) almost finished, has been going on for 8 months. Lots of great maps and it certainly deserves a nod in Diplo game history.

Tales from the Diplomatic Front - VII
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/001569.html?70
Fun game, kinda fizzled half way through, but it started with some great posts, imho. 'specially proud of the portrayal of the Metalhead empire by yours truly. First game of myself and the Capo. I can't comment on the beginning diplo players, but i regard Capo the best in the field.

Tales from the European Front I
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/001803.html?69
In our ignorance we assumed this was the first European Dip Game, oh well. But i bet this has the best map. Going great so far. Deffinatly one to keep your eye on, posts kinda went sour after Capo left, but still a very fun game.

Tales from the Ultimate Diplomatic Front I
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/001852.html?29
First diplo game played on the new Giga map. Has the makings of a great game, some great posts and involvement by the players.

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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

OzzyKP · November 19, 2000, 00:28

Well after putting up the newer links i realized that none of the old links provided by CapTVK worked anymore. I don't know what happened to all of them, perhaps some were lost, but a good number were archived by the friendly Apolyton staff. Those that are archived and available can be viewed below:

a game of diplomacy
http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-2-000572.html

AIs in Diplomatic games
http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-2-001402.html

An Open Letter to All Nations
http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-2-000611.html

Diplomacy, a new twist
http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-2-001299.html

European Tales from the diplomatic front
http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-2-000751.html

HaHa Diplomatic Suckers
http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-2-000752.html

Linking the diplomatic threads
http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-2-001264.html

More Tales from the Diplomatic Front
http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-2-000699.html

Tales from the Diplomatic Front IV
http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-2-001306.html

Tales from the diplomatic front
http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-2-000603.html

Tales from the front II, in 3D
http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-2-000466.html

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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

CapTVK · November 19, 2000, 18:12

Whoa, you don't visit a forum for awhile and suddenly a thread you made is back in teh spotlight. I haven't payed much attention the the FAQ as most questions seemed to be answered anyway but it's glad to see some new blood paying attention.

Thanks for the links guys, I'll start work on ver 0.31. Anything else I should add?

The Capo · November 19, 2000, 19:18

Thanks for the nod Ozzy, I kinda blow at Civ, but I love to play Diplogames becuase I can almost talk my way out of anything.

I think you should talk about the idea of plotting out borders early, in most of the (3) Diplogames I have been in, everyone had made agreements such as:

France: I want to own India.

Mongolia: I want to own Indonesia.

France: Deal

Now neither of these civs would actually have had a stake in these areas, but they felt comfortable enough to "garuntee" them to eachother in the sense that they would not interfere. Often this leads to war with eachother (in this case since the territory is so close) or with outside civs, say the Persians and Japanese had previously made a similar agreement with eachother, and both sides wish to hold their deals. The forms of treaties should be discussed in the next version. You have trade pacts, which outline where caravans may go, you have your technology pacts which are basically agreements to help eachother either a) achieve a specific tech, or b) generally achieve a high tech parity over the others.

I also notice that a lot of players make the mistake of thinking that their "Monarchy" is a liberal institution, you find comments like "I do not force my people into anything" being said by Monarchs, which is all well and good since we are in America, but its no fun to deal with Monarchs that act like Presidents. I think some guidelines for doing this should be discussed in your next post so the rookies can learn to be a bit more realistic and thus fun in games.

The same goes for everything else. In Ultimate Dip right now, I am the leader of the Europeans, I am a Monarch, but I continue to have differant characters such as "The Pope" "The General (Napoleon)" "The opposition" all kinds of characters, and some players don't treat the seperate characters as seperate. Everyone to them is Europe, which is kinda a drag, but its fun to play differant people and actually assume differant roles as differant kings.

And finally, since this topic was opened in the first place, I say that we should set a date sometime in the near future (maybe a few months from now) for the biggest and best Diplogame ever, there is a really great Gigamap out there (not mine, which sucks) that really looks like the actual globe, it was very well done, and I think we should look it over, make appropriate changes and use that.

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"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

-Winston Churchill

"Ceterum censo Carthaginem esse delendam"
"Also I think that Carthage must be destroyed"

-Cato the Elder, Roman Statesmen

One Love.

OzzyKP · November 21, 2000, 01:38

Capo, I too had thoughts of starting a new diplo game (despite the fact we are both in one currently). And yea it may be awhile before it happens, but I don't want to just pick up random people for this one, i want to carefully select everyone to make sure we have experienced diplo gamers, people with stable connections and stable schedules we can count on from week to week, skilled posters and people who will play their role the best and make the game as enjoyable as it can be.

I suggest we take every precaution with this game, change the rules.txt to increase the ship movement and any other tweaking we should do. And honestly i really wouldn't want the Giga map, it is waay too big. While peace is nice, it can be boring if you have a whole game of it. And wars mostly occur when you are pinched for land, in the giga map you can go on forever. I think a standard world map would be best. You can tweak that if you wish to make it more realistic or whatever.

But i certainly want the two of us in the game. CapTVK you can get in on this, sounds like you are a veteran in the field of diplo games and could guide us through this one. Also you could recommend some good players who are at the top of diplomatic games and can make this the best ever.

As for a tip for the next FAQ, i'd suggest reducing the cost of caravans, in my opinion caravans are an under utilized part of the game, and especially diplo games it would be nice to have greater trade going on between nations.

Also there seems to be almost a reluctance to war in the diplo games i've played. Which takes alot of the fun out of it. I guess the truth of the matter is that in war everyone looses, so those who want to 'win' sit peacefully by themselves and don't get involved, which gets to be boring.

And as Capo said, the players really need to get in the role and frame of mind of Diplo games. Anything that a player can do to go outside the boundries of the game and more into real life helps. I like the idea of holding a position and charging a toll to go past, like the panama and suez canals. Or taking out loans from other players, or 'investing' in their empires like i did with the Spanish in Euro Dip.

And i think the tech tree should be slowed down alot, especially later techs. It starts out ok, but then towards the middle-end of the game new techs come every couple turns and i think it spoils the game. Some of those middle units just become obsolete before you can really get a chance to produce them and use them in war. Dragoons loose out to Cavalry real quick. I think it should be slowed down, which will make the game last longer too, which is a good thing.

And more insentives to post, somehow.

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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

The Capo · November 23, 2000, 10:29

I agree 100% with everything you said except for the idea of war. I think that war is something that should and will happen in every Diplogame, however I don't find it a necessity to make war to keep things interesting. When I play, war is usually my last resort, even if I am heavily militarizing my borders, and threatening people, they are really just empty resolutions. I will only go to war with you if I feel that it is needed for me to continue existing or continue with the power I have, and I never go to war with anyone unless I am assured that I can take a substancial amount of cities without retaliation within a few short turns.

I also don't want to put up a facade, I am not too great an MP player, well I wasn't. Ozzy you can atest to this, but in all of the Diplogames I was in, while I remained a strong diplomatic presence in every one, I was always the weakest and "stupidest" of the tribes involved. I don't know whether it is due to unskilled players or what, but in UltraDip I am easily the strongest country, as well as the most diplomatic, which puts me in a very good situation.

I think that the Diplogame will become an important aspect of Civilization, mainly because the game wasn't created to be a total war game. Diplomacy was always one facit of the game that Sid wanted to be a major part, but due to the weak diplomacy of the original he more or less garnished the attentions of the warmongers, which didn't hurt him in the sense of pain and loss, but did make strides towards hurting the Civ 2 Community. The reason I like Diplogames is quite simple; Silent deuls are so unfufilling, I play Civ because I like to trade, I like tech races, I like alliances, I like Diplomacy and I do even like war but not every damn turn.

The Diplogame is Civ how its meant to be played, which is why I like it. Well I should probably get to the point here; I think it was either me or Ozzy who proposed we have a big diplogame sometime in the near future. Actually, since most of us are in College (I hope) we can have it start up right after Christmas becuase we will have a month off of school. I think it would serve our purposes best if we had a new map for this game, not giga but normal sized, and a better representation of the world. If we can't find/accomplish that the world.mp should work out fine. As for the players, well I don't really want to intervene in that area, I don't find my self as exactly the cream of the crop in this place anyway. I would be glad to be involved in this diplogame, but I don't want to dictate my presence over someone who may be better than I am. So I wash my hands of the player list in this one Oz.

As for the tribes involved, I think we should have it that everyone picks their country, and since I will make this a scenario (to add more pleasing graphics ,maybe new units?) I can put any country at all in this game. But the rule should be no more than two tribes to a continent.

I want to add some new units and techs to this to make things interesting, in Ultradip we changed the Tech Rate so we weren't in space in 1796, and its working out rather well actually.

I think we should increase the rate of ship movment definantly, I am going to add more units to this game, it will make things fresher, and I like things when they are fresh. (That was by far the lamest thing I have ever put on this board).

So yes I propose Diplo _?_ start at around January 1st, and Oz you can get the players.

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"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

-Winston Churchill

"Ceterum censo Carthaginem esse delendam"
"Also I think that Carthage must be destroyed"

-Cato the Elder, Roman Statesmen

One Love.

sekong · April 5, 2001, 18:26

BUMP,