New Millennium Eurodiplomacy (Part Deux)

[Curumbor Elendil]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by markusf on 04-05-2001 12:46 PM</font>
One of the things that has been bugging me and that i know is going to create a big fight is the warfare. When curumber "declared" war on me he moved his units up to my cities after i ended my turn and then the next turn(because he is ahead in color) he attacked. THat gives him 2 moves. If i where to attack, and he hasn't ended his turn i can move all my units up to his cities. he could then move all his units, and the next turn he could attack and destroy all my invading units before i get the chance to attack. To solve this i think the attacking party should get turn should always move first in a turn regardless of thier color, till peace is signed.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

That is the rule. The problem was that war was declared in the middle of a turn, but you had already finished moving your units. So technically you could have moved your units and attacked me after I moved my units up to your cities - but you didn't have any units left to move. So I guess we just need to add to our rule the stipulation that you must declare war at the very beginning of a turn. I actually tried to do that, but with the furious negotiations swirling around I didn't get around to it till you'd moved all your units. But from now on, we'll make it a rule that you have to declare war at the beginning.

BTW, does anyone object to my setting the game year at 1870 for when we start up again? It's just ridiculous for Electronics to be researched and the Hydroelectric Project ready to be built in 1180 AD! Obviously, changing the game year won't affect any substantive aspect of the game. I already have a file ready, and I can ICQ it to Markus.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Curumbor Elendil]

P.S. Drake, those are freight trains.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[markusf]

changing the year will affect research rates, and it will affect what turns your allowed to change governments. I forget the exact year in which it changes to allow u to change governments nearly every year.

[markusf]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Much trading continued with the Italians and Russians and it is believed the Turks now welcome QB's trade with open arms....
Special trading plans are being considered with Turkey once the airport facilty is available.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>


The turks ban trading with the english. no caravans ALLOWED

[Curumbor Elendil]

Since the other thread has 159 posts, we have to move to this one.

Here's a little screenshot from a corner of the Austrian civilization.



The Vienna-Budapest axis forms the core of the Austro-Yugoslavo-Hungarian civilization. Formerly, Budapest was Magyar while Vienna was South German - until Budapest was ethnically cleansed of the Magyar population under Fuehrer Napoleon Hitler I. Following the long Fascist period, these regions are now quite small in the European context, but with a move to a free-market economy, greater production of luxuries is beginning to draw people from the countryside into the cities and to reduce mortality rates.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[drake]

Don't mind me asking, but just what are those blue cloud-like things at the bottom of your screenshot?

[Berzerker]

I think war should be declared at the end of the previous turn, Markus has a legitimate gripe since he is supposed to get a full turn to prepare for war. Oh well, practice makes perfect, it takes some experimentation to get this map/scenario down.

[markusf]

One of the things that has been bugging me and that i know is going to create a big fight is the warfare. When curumber "declared" war on me he moved his units up to my cities after i ended my turn and then the next turn(because he is ahead in color) he attacked. THat gives him 2 moves. If i where to attack, and he hasn't ended his turn i can move all my units up to his cities. he could then move all his units, and the next turn he could attack and destroy all my invading units before i get the chance to attack. To solve this i think the attacking party should get turn should always move first in a turn regardless of thier color, till peace is signed.

Also a 15 minute timer will be strictly enforced, Diety has no excuse for taking 1 hour to move, because he is in dem all military units can't be moved outside the city... Micromanageing 30 cities is pointless and really not needed(use the damn F4 key!). we played 3 actual turns in 3 hours + 2 turns we used on the reload.. which really bugs me because i can't move any of my settlars or units in that time.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Curumbor Elendil on 04-05-2001 05:25 PM</font>
BTW, does anyone object to my setting the game year at 1870 for when we start up again? It's just ridiculous for Electronics to be researched and the Hydroelectric Project ready to be built in 1180 AD! Obviously, changing the game year won't affect any substantive aspect of the game. I already have a file ready, and I can ICQ it to Markus.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

No, I don't want that. We are dealing with the unknown vaguaries of the program. It may alter our relative advantages. Forget it. We been playing civ like this for years - don't make changes like that in mid-game!

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by markusf on 04-05-2001 12:46 PM</font>
Also a 15 minute timer will be strictly enforced, Diety has no excuse for taking 1 hour to move, because he is in dem all military units can't be moved outside the city... Micromanageing 30 cities is pointless and really not needed(use the damn F4 key!). we played 3 actual turns in 3 hours + 2 turns we used on the reload.. which really bugs me because i can't move any of my settlars or units in that time.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

You are so full of it man!
What a total exageration.
You said I took 33 mins, I doubt it was even that long.
We moved for the reloads anyway, didn't we?
I certainly moved my units more than 3 times. Can someone verify this?

Without giving away too much of Queen Boudicca's privates let me say that I have a ton of units to move:
* Under Democracy you CAN move lotsa units - I got nearly 100.
* Plus I got MANY freight - The Russians can verify this

Add to this the lag and I DON'T SPEND hardly anytime doing microing.
You have to believe me on this.

I'm actualy disadvantaged by the lag and missing out on microing to some extent.

What happens is you click GoTo for a unit to move.
You can't move to any other activity other than Advisors without stopping the unit moving. So you just watch the f***er moving like a freaking snail!

So don't give me the s**ts

---

Also, Markus and finbar remember when Elendil quit the game as host because his cara disappeared into thin air. He quit, without discussion.
Everyone has had their gripes in this game and when I said much earlier in the game that I lost a tri with settler and diplo on board Elendil said I should have complained straight away and we would restart.

Anyway, in the last session I had a problem and wanted a restart. I didn't just quit, but asked. Then it had to go to a friggin vote! Which I won, luckily.

Also, markus has been winging all game about his cara bugs etc. And Elendil went to the trouble to edit the scenario to fix this.
finbar revolted accidentally and we went back a few turns for him.
So, I'm not the only one.

What I'm saying is it's OK to have these gripes but let's be fair about it.
If Markus lost 2000 gold on that last startup then I'm happy for it to be edited back in..... friggin SIMUL - BRING BACK TURN-BASED!!!!!!!

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[Curumbor Elendil]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Berzerker on 04-06-2001 12:25 AM</font>
I think war should be declared at the end of the previous turn, Markus has a legitimate gripe since he is supposed to get a full turn to prepare for war. Oh well, practice makes perfect, it takes some experimentation to get this map/scenario down.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Well, the end of the previous turn would allow the defender 2 turns to rush buy before the declarer can attack. (Assuming you wouldn't let the attacker attack the turn right after declaring.) I think that's a bit excessive.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Curumbor Elendil]

OK, I guess I won't change the game year, though I don't think it affects game dynamics in any way. I won't be writing stories anymore, they're just too ridiculous. I'll write game reports, though.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[markusf]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Curumbor Elendil on 04-06-2001 08:35 AM</font>
Well, the end of the previous turn would allow the defender 2 turns to rush buy before the declarer can attack. (Assuming you wouldn't let the attacker attack the turn right after declaring.) I think that's a bit excessive.


<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

no, i am just saying whoever declares war first is allowed to attack first, regardless of color. SO if i declare war on you this turn, i get to move first in every turn until we have peace. Otherwise as you did last time you will just stall till the end of my turn, move all your units up to mine (maybe even attack them) and the next turn you would get to move all your units again. Let me give you an example. germans declare war on the british, after the english have stoped moving. The british then land 5 vet artillery outside of 5 english cities. The next turn the germans get to move first again, they would then attack 5 english cities with artillary. For some reason i feel people are going to complain about this. And yes i want my $2000 gold back. I sold a lot of tech etc on that last turn. Everyone else got the tech and lost the money. And i bought over 20 improvements and they all vanished(reset)

[Curumbor Elendil]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by markusf on 04-06-2001 11:46 AM</font>
no, i am just saying whoever declares war first is allowed to attack first, regardless of color. SO if i declare war on you this turn, i get to move first in every turn until we have peace.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

That's the way it is now; I just stated the rule in more complex language. I think I stated it: "if the attacker is before the defender in turn order, turn order is followed; if the attacker is after the defender in turn order, turn order is reversed." Same thing as what you're saying.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
Otherwise as you did last time you will just stall till the end of my turn, move all your units up to mine (maybe even attack them) and the next turn you would get to move all your units again. Let me give you an example. germans declare war on the british, after the english have stoped moving. The british then land 5 vet artillery outside of 5 english cities. The next turn the germans get to move first again, they would then attack 5 english cities with artillary. For some reason i feel people are going to complain about this.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

That's why we have to have declaration of war at the beginning of the turn. What happened was that I declared war in the middle of a turn, after you had moved all your units. Then turn order went into effect, which meant that I moved first, and then you would get to move. But you had no units left to move, so you couldn't. So I'm saying, from now on let's make it a rule to declare war at the very beginning of a turn, so that doesn't happen again.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
And yes i want my $2000 gold back. I sold a lot of tech etc on that last turn. Everyone else got the tech and lost the money. And i bought over 20 improvements and they all vanished(reset)

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I'll check the exact amount that you spent.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[GNGSpam]

This game sounds like loads of fun

This is why Diplogames shouldnt use Simul play =) and powergameing is just ridiculous

[markusf]

YOu can't check the exact amount i spent, because i was given a lot of gold by germans english and my taxes where at 80% 800 gold from my civ, 500 gold and a bunch from the english. plus i had 1000+ gold on hand.
All this happened in the course of the turn, and then i mass bought all these improvements. bank was 70% done i bought a bunch of temples etc. But on the reload everything was exactly the way it was last turn except i was missing my gold and had no production to show for it. I am not that worried about it. I can just exploit some "bugs/features" to get my 2k back.

ps stop looking at my civ.

[Curumbor Elendil]

Just saw your message about getting gold from other civs. I don't believe you spent 2000 gold, but if other civs gave you gold, you do appear to have lost some. They'll have to verify this, of course.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Curumbor Elendil (edited April 06, 2001).]</font>

[Curumbor Elendil]

P.S. exactly what kinds of "bugs/features" are you going to exploit?

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[markusf]

I told u i spent all the money the italians, germans and english gave me during the last turn. $500 gold for chemistry for the germans, $400 or so from the english etc.

[markusf]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Curumbor Elendil on 04-06-2001 12:35 PM</font>
P.S. exactly what kinds of "bugs/features" are you going to exploit?


<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I know the optimal trade connection and route formula. I can get $10,000 gold for a uranium caravan

[OzzyKP]

Yea, this game has almost no semblance of a diplogame. Just some game with a bunch of good players on a europe map. I don't think any effort was taken to make this "real". Oh well. I'm not free of blame either, i just haven't had time to get into a game fully.


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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - French in Millenial Euro Dip
Ozzy - Formerly Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

This is a great and very interesting game, ozzy.

You can't possibly predict the outcome and my Queen Boudicca's politics is extremely complex, to say the least. I've got embassies with all nations and many chats going in icq, all of us second guessing our next move.
I guess you haven't had a chance to get into it and again sorry about any delays I might have caused; and we have had some bugs.

I'd rather go to turn-based with a 5/10 minute timer, perhaps?



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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

From: Queen Boudicca, Britsh

To: His Excellency Berzerker, Germans

Date: 8th April AD 1180

Subject: Hydro-Electric Project

Dear Friend,

As you know we have been great trading partners for eons. We traded in the days of rowing boats and this has helped develop both our nations as the two World leaders. You have always shown me coutesy and always offerred peace. Likewise the British wish to maintain our peaceful relations.

Our scientists had been very keen to develop Electronics, I think you call it, but in my wisdom and with war being waged by your ally, the Austrians, near the Eastern border of our Italian allies, I decided to develop the British military. We hope it won't be necesary but we are capable of delivering support to trouble spots as they occur anywhere in Europe.

We had to forgo the opportunity to build the Hydro-Electric Project.
My people although proud of our military superority are upset that we lack many Wonders of the World. They remember a time in our history when we had several Wonders of the Ancient World.

With all this in mind Queen Boudicca asks you to consider giving the British the opportunity to build the Hydro-Electric Project.

Germany has Wonders of the Industrial Age including Bach's Cathedral.
Berzerker, you will be able to massively grow your nation in future years and we are prepared to help you by granting you as many Engineers as you are able to grant us settlers. And we are prepared to listen to any additional requests you may wish to make.

My dear sire, of whom I have many [ ]

Please do not see any of this as any sort of threat.
Just because we have a massive military capability including a vast navy doesn't mean it is of any concern to you.

Queen Boudicca respects the great German leaders decision-making capability and hopes that bountiful trade will continue between the two nations.

Yours eternally,
Queen Boudicca
(yet to be unleashed as Boadicea)




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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by markusf on 04-05-2001 07:38 PM</font>

The turks ban trading with the english. no caravans ALLOWED
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Queen Boudicca was advised by the Turk Trade Minister that British freight was welcome; caravans are out of date anyway although we believe some nations still possess some....
In good faith she has sent many consignments of cargo to Turkey and she expects their safe arrival. No trade bonus was expected to be paid to the Turks either until further details are secretly available regarding the "hyper-growth plan", we believe it is called.

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[markusf]

I will not have you making close to a $1000 per caravan off me per caravan. Also i see no reason why i should let you get 1 tech a turn by doing that. I will not benifit from your caravans.(routes are to small to even give me more trade) You land them and i will declare war.

[The Capo]

Napoleon sat in his office, rubbing his temple, he was tired and felt sick that night. The rain gently tapped on the window, somewhat soothing the Senator, but whenever he felt a substantial amount of comfort he remembered that his party had won the Senate in the last election, and he was mere hours away from being named Consul of France...

He threw his papers down, economic reports, defense reports, science reports, it had disgusted him. "How had France declined into such impotence?" he thought to himself. He stood up and walked to the window and looked at the Parisian skyline; his people had been a most liberal lot. A strong Republic, fair, the first to allow women the right to vote. He loved his country, he realized it there just then that his love for his nation was legitimate, not just a political statement. He was a patriot, he quickly sat down in his seat realizing that maybe his new position would not be a detriment as it was looked upon by most of the Senators, but possibly a chance for greatness. Perhaps he would lead France into greatness.

Bonaparte stood up again, and walked to the west wall. A large map of Europe was there; his allies the British and the Italians, the Eastern nations of Germany, Austria and Russia, and the Turks were all there staring back at him, taunting him: "What are you going to do France? What can you do?" he said to himself. At this point Rene walked in...

"Senator Bonaparte, I have messages from Britain and Italy, as well as some more military reports." said the young man.
"Place them on my desk, Rene?" said the Senator.
"Yes sir?" replied the page.
"Please send for some coffee, tell my coach that I shall not be leaving tonight, send for my aides, we have a long night ahead of us."
"Yes sir!"
"Oh Rene?"
"Sir?"
"You've been a good employee, how would you like a promotion?" asked Bonaparte.
"Um" said the Page uneasily "I would really appreciate it, but sir I think-"
"Yes Rene, well, go! This is the birth of a new day!"

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by markusf on 04-08-2001 01:09 AM</font>
I will not have you making close to a $1000 per caravan off me per caravan. Also i see no reason why i should let you get 1 tech a turn by doing that. I will not benifit from your caravans.(routes are to small to even give me more trade) You land them and i will declare war.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Not getting a tech a turn!
It's every 6 turns.
And only a few freight get 1000.


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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

LOST CONNECTION and icq WON'T CONNECT!!!!!

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[markusf]

so you don't have automobile yet...

you couldn't connect because i quit out of the game. And everyone else retired.

I am getting extremely fed up with all these restarts and problems. but i will see how this latest one plays out before throwing in the towel.

[The Capo]

I subbed for Ozzy today, and there were a few issues that have yet to be resolved...

The first thing is apparently this game has some sort of list of War Rules involved in it. Which I find ridiculous. The game is blatantly set up to condone nations to have little to no defense in their nation. The game is using Simultaneous play, which helps make the rules all the more confusing. Here is what I interpreted the rules to be...

1) "You must declare war at the turn beforehand during the begining of the turn" - This is quite confusing. What is the beginning? You have twenty minutes total to move per turn, so what is the beginning? The upkeep phase? You can't possibly declare it there becuase you have to run upkeep, the first five minutes? You need to move your units ASAP before you get screwed over by the stupid Simul play. So when do you declare? I didn't know the answer to this question either, but I decided to wing it and I guess I got it right. Not to mention, does this pertain to allies who come to the aide of allies? None of this was covered at all. As a matter of fact Curumbor didn't even tell me the rules, it wans't until I had the prescence of mind to ask Deity that I found out about it.

2) "The two countries that go to war go into turn based play, with the person who is declared war upon going FIRST" - This is not only stupid, but confusing. Do we take actual turns, like an official entire (20 minute) turn, or do we say, we are done you move, I am done now you move? Or what? I had no clue what the hell was going on in this respect.

3) "You can not attack at until the next turn" - Combining this with 2 its really confusing. What constitutes a turn when we move into turn based play? Since its not official turn based play do we wait the 20 or what, I didn't get it. Further why does the guy who has war declared on him get the first shot? Its unrealistic and unfair to those with resolve.

This incident I believe is a personal incident. Curumbor made it quite clear that he did not trust me from the start. He even said he saved becuase he knew "capo would play dirty." I may be pretty good at deception, but I am no cheater by any definition of the word, so for him to say this (and other things to this effect) was qutie embarrassing to have occured in front of players that I respect. Despite this I continue to hold Curumbor and his abilitiesin a high regard. Further Curumbor had placed me on ignore on ICQ beforehand, even after I had explained away the reason why he kept it like this. Maybe what he said wasn't the real reason? Perhaps he is angry that I put my two cents in on his Standard Modpack Thread, who knows. But it seems quite obvious to me that Curumbor has a personal problem with me. If he does I'd like him to say it instead of veil it with this stupid argument.

I don't believe I need to describe the incident because this really shouldn't become a public issue, and I post this so people in the game and involved in the game can give me their thoughts on what occured. We all know the general story, and I'd be happy to accomodate any quesitons or debate the issue with them if they'd like.

You know where to find me.

Its too damn late, I have a job interview tomorrow (Actually today) I gotta go to bed. I'll talk to you guys tomorrow (actually today)...

Peace.