Tales from the Monday Night Diplo Front - The Climax - Page 2

SunTzu · April 30, 2001, 22:53

End of the War of the Worlds!

ESS Cockroach was stopped just two years before its arrival at Alpha Centauri! Mongol nukes emptied the capital of This Being Milk and took over the city killing an estimated 2million souls with another 1million missing.
The CSS Spineless was launched the next year in 1904 with an estimated arrival time of the year 1909. Fighting occured in Eastern Asia as Epik Storm Troopers captured NorthEast Asia but a counterattack at CornTown and Riverbird was successful. While Desdenova marched into the Carthage capital of Riverbird the lifeless body of the spineless Zarvox was found in his Chateau. The Coroner ruled that he took his own life instead of facing the humiliation of defeat.
The War is over and Neanderthal Empire and the Mongolia Nation has survived the worst war in history!

PS. This was a great game and i enjoyed it although i picked up the crap of a nation Clay Pigeon left me =\
Great game yall!

drake · May 1, 2001, 00:04

Mongolian Epilogue:
--------------------------

In the years that would follow the falling of the Carthaginian capital, the world was rebuilt. Desdenova the Righteous taught the people of the earth to love and respect their neighbors as well as mother earth. SunTzu the reformed led a worldwide cleaning group to eradicate pollution. Zarvoxs half alien ancestors were taught that the earth was better than that dried up stinking rock of a planet, Alpha Centauri anyway. Suas rebuilt his magnificent trading company and made the world a prosperous place to live once again. All nuclear weapons were dismantled and cities were de-militarized. The world returned to a renaissance like state. A state much like the pre-spaceship race world was like.

High Priest Desdenova's final speech at the UN in Transmaniacon:
"Fellow humans, I ask that you bow your heads and pray. Today we mourn the loss of millions of lives that were lost in the world war. Many innocent victims died and for what? For a nation's glory? Egypt and Carthage set out for their own personal glory on a quest that was destined to fail. Thankfully, the leaders of these misguided countries have been vanquished. The Mongols have cleansed the earth of their sickening presence and restored order to the planet. Let this be a lesson learned....Evil does not prosper and there is no room for evil on this earth. Suas and Zarvox were once good men, but their selfish ways got the better of them. Let this be a lesson learned.....the Righteous will always overcome the obstacles that confront them and with faith, anything is possible. May you always remember my teachings children................."

Cue fade out/in

scene: 2 years ago, in the thick of the war:
1904
The un-imaginable has been achieved. Mongolian spies have sabotaged the Egyptian capital of This Being Milk and gained control of the main spaceship command center. Spies landed on the California coast sent from the shores of China. One brave spy slipped un-detected into the Capital city, using her beguiling charm. Once inside, she planted a nuclear device that would give the world one last chance. She reached enlightenment that day, along with an estimated 10 million egyptians as This Being Milk went up in a mushroom cloud. Ensuing Mongolian troops had no defenses to stop them and the Egyptian capital rasied a purple flag. In a display of triumph, a Mongolian howitzer was aimed dead on at the Spaceships supercomputer (which controlled guidance) and fired. Egyptian technicians watched helplessly as the computer blew in to millions of tiny bits..............

Cue fade out/in

Deep in outer space, the SS Suas shook and rumbled......
"Come in command center, come in command center" barked a crewman......
*static*
"I repeat, come in command center, what is going on?"
*static*
"We have lost transmission President Suas" said the crewman...........
"Sir, the guidance system is malfunctioning, our coordinates are going haywire!" yelled another......
Red lights began to flash and the crew began to panic.................
Through the confusion a man yelled, "President! President! A message is being recieved from somewhere in the capital city...it is on the most primitive level sir....morse code..."
"Well what does it say leuitenant?" said the president"
The man looked up with a ghastly white look on his face....."It says, "Kiss your yellow ass goodbye sir"

*Cue StarWarsesque death star type explosion*

Yes the capital had been taken and the ship destroyed as a result. Against all odds the Mongols had come through.........................

More to follow.......................

suas333 · May 1, 2001, 00:29

1904 AD

The Egyptian people line the streets of This_Being_Milk in preparation to celebrate the landing of the ESS Suas and their beloved President on Alpha Centaurai. The celebration was to be fierce and the fireworks bright, but the people got more than they could have hoped. Only one man's purple bandana stood out among the yellow flag-waving crowd. The expolosion he sets off will have changed history......1.6 million civilians dead.

1905 AD

This_Being_Milk and its near 4 million occupants were victems of a nuclear explosion. an estimated 1.6 million egyptian civilians were instantaniously killed by the Mongolian influenced explosion. With all SS equipment destoyed on earth, the ESS Suas and the President same crashing down into the Atlantic.
And so this scenerio emerges:
A weaker more moderate egypt plans peace in a new isolated North America.
Mongols find themselves in control of nearly 3/4 the world.
Carthage builds and launches their own 5 year spaceship.
Sun Tsu the Insane continues launching nukes and pollutiong this earth.

Later 1905 AD

Zarfox has resorted to using Nuclear Weapons in the East as he fends off the Mongols in formerly Egyptian owned Kamchutka. The once serene view of the African continent from Gibralter is now blocked with the smoke from Egyptian Cruisers floating among the blood of of Neanderthal and Mongolian troops killed in Africa. Skulls pile up as a nuke-torn egypt and a crazy Neanderthal leader pile on the pollution. The once beutiful Panama canal is now polluted with Neanderthal nuclear waste and the bodies of dead egyptian soldiers. The Japanese mainland, once the site of desdenova and President suas early treaties assuring peace, now is the site of a nuclear wasted mongolian military base. Major cities of Prague, London, and countless eastern mongolian cities also lie in nuclear waste. The noise of Mongolian and Neanderthal tanks fill asia.
Finally the Mongols march into the Carthagian capital. Yet another ship brought down. With the ship's crash comes a new scenerio. The Egyptian and Carthagian civs lie with nothing but broken ship parts. The Neanderthals are looking to be successful in their quest to ruin this earth. The Mongols find themselves in charge as was planned. However their perfect world, of free trade and land re-organizing, is far from complete. Instead they have a world of pollution and a world that has all its resources poured into military and defence. A world war had happened as predicted by Capo and all the other men of the time. But there seems no clear winner. Perhaps Desdenova can find his way to manage everything, or perhaps leave the earth since it will never be as he dreamed. The war left the organized world ruined. Is this how it will end??

son of suas

drake · May 1, 2001, 09:18

-----Out of Game-----

Ok, last night when I stormed the Carthaginian capital, instead of moving the capital like the game should have done, it didn't. We had another late game bug and as a result Epik lost his spaceship. And he was rightfully pissed off. But instead of stopping to rationally think over the situation, the game was terminated at that point. Though yes, the game had been tainted, we could have very easily backtracked and gotten through this area like we had when we had the apollo problem. There is no reason we still can't do this. If we can find a save that starts at an appropriate time, we can force our way through this error. I only suggest this, because such a great game deserves a proper ending, and this surely wasn't it. Zarvox's spaceship atleast deserves an attempt to land, this I recognize. Last night was the best night of civ I think I ever had. Plans for a new order of peace and trade were in the wings, and then boom. The "game is over". I don't go for it. All participants in this game owe it to the game to atleast try to work through this latest problem. We have overcome so many obstacles.....are we going to let this crap end the best game we might ever play (atleast thats how I feel)? I can get together tonight or Wednesday to try and simply work through this problem. If we can push through, we can resume at our normal time.........Epik, Suas, SunTzu, I would like this story to have a proper ending. Lets work together and get it............
[This message has been edited by drake (edited May 01, 2001).]

Epik · May 1, 2001, 10:28

First let me congradulate Drake on the well cooridinated attack that captured my capital.

When the capture took place I got a popup asking if I wanted to move my capital at the cost of 1000 gold. I chose the option to move the capital. The next popup said my spaceship returned home. It never gave me a choice of where to move the capital.

It is my understanding that the capital can be moved as many times as you can afford the 1000 gold. I had about 2500 gold at the time which should have been enough, with tax income, to move my capital 3 or 4 times. I think that the multiple moves should have given enough time for the spaceship to reach AC.

I know of no way to "work around" this bug. I think that the bug has screwed the game up badly. I understand that the other tribes must try to capture each capital that I build, but if I am not able to move them then the strategy that I have employed for 6 months has been pointless.

It is now my opinion that the only way that Civ 2 MP can be played is as bloodlust. A bloodlust game would have required an entirely different strategy than the one I followed.

I want to stress that I am not angry with any of the players in this game. My anger is directed at the poor game code which has revealed 3 late game bugs. I never would have committed to 6 months worth of Monday nights, if I had known of the bugs waiting to bite at the end.

It is true that we have put alot of effort into this game, so I will listen to your ideas on how to "work around" the final bug.

I currently have a bad attitude about Civ 2, and it is likely that I will never play it again. So you will have a tough sell to get me to continue.

[This message has been edited by Epik (edited May 01, 2001).]

The Capo · May 1, 2001, 11:10

Mongolian Nightly News, January 5th 1904...

Lana Aguilera: Thank you for that interesting report, so that's where This Being Milk comes from? Hmm. Well now live from the Egyptian capital is Antonin DeNucci, senior reporter, with an update on the situation with the Egyptian spacecraft. Antonin?

DeNucci: Yes Lana I can hear you loud and clear. There is now a rally here in This Being Milk, as you can see the streets lined with yellow banners praising Saus and his plans. Unfortunantly Saus could not be here as he is among the members of that ship. I now have with me international political pundit "The Capo" who is going to make a few comments on the ensuing World War. Thank you for being here Capo.

Capo: Thanks for having me Tony.

DeNucci: I am going to ask the obligatory question here to get it out of the way, but what is your name?

Capo: I'm sorry the crowd is very loud here, could you repeat that?

DeNucci: What is your name Capo?

Capo: Well, we'll all find out when I die.

DeNucci: Heh, alright have it your way. Anyway we are here in front of the Egyptian capital, in two years time the E.S.S. Saus, dubbed the "Cockroach" by N.W.O. (New World Order) leader Desvonda (sp?) will reach Alpha Centauri, which is the legendary ancestral home of the Carthagines. This is something I would never have imagined could occur. What do you think Capo?

Capo: Well its quite simple, its really really a bad situation I said years ago there was going to be havoc if Egypt goes unchecked. Well now there is. The world has gone insane, I am quite frightened to be here. It seems the only safe place to be right now is right here in This Being Milk.

(At this point police sirens are heard and a comotion ensues. An "asian" looking woman in tight fitting black clothing is seen running out of the space command center with a metalic object. Four heavily armored security guards give chase shotting automatic weaponry at her, they hit some civilians as she rolls to the ground. The object falls from her hands and she scoops it up quickly and begins to yell...)

Woman: STOP RIGHT THERE! STOP!

Guards: Put it down at once!

Woman: You stupid bastards! (she then pushes a button on object, a huge white flash is seen on the screen and then static.)

Lana Aguilera: We seem to have, we seem to have lost connection with the satellite. Um, oh my... (her eyes begin to water up) no. I have just recieved word that This Being Milk has been attacked by a nuclear device. Estimated casualties are in the millions. I can't believe... (cut to commercial).

(Just thought I'd throw that in there)

drake · May 1, 2001, 11:13

Well the idea would be this Epik- We save right before I take your cap, and just you and I can try it a few times, to see if you can move the capital. This wouldn't take long to atleast try. Option two is to save the game right before taking the cap and then take it in single player mode. Of course the AI would probably move the Cap somewhere totally lame, but it would be moved and would buy you some more valuable time. In the event that we can get it to work, I propose that your next capital be the alamo. The idea that a capital can jump around the country is pretty lame after all and I still think, game rules or not, that this shouldn't be exploited to a ridiculous degree. It's simple. The challenge would be for you to hold onto your new capital for 4 years. 4 Turns. I have not claimed victory by any means, no one has, and as far as I'm concerned, this is your game to win Epik, you just have to muster the energy to make the attempt. As you can see, it won't be easy to hold your cap, wherever it may move, but you can atleast have a chance. You will be hit from all angles and it will be quite an achievement if you can survive the combined attacks of three other nations........

The other game flaw was just as significant as this one, as we wouldnt have even had spaceships had we not tried to work through it. But we did, and things were fine. We can make it through this. You proposed that you and I have a post game battle epik, well here's your chance, in game. The unlikely happened and I gave you the opportunity to win, whether you want to see it that way or not. If you do manage to pull the victory out, believe me, no ones going to look down upon it. Put aside your bitterness and lets see what that nation of yours is made of

(Otherwise you'll have to put up with my shameless boasting

C'mon Epik/Zarvox, you owe it to your country and this game to atleast give it a shot!)

suas333 · May 2, 2001, 00:32

Are you sure its a game bug...my understanding is that even if you move your capital, your Spaceship is completely destroyed. Thats why i didn't acre so much if i had the money or not.

GNGSpam · May 2, 2001, 01:17

I think this is ridiculous. Drake has done something that I doubt any of you have ever seen in the annuals of MP. Around the 1700s he was informing me of how Suas could literally take over the entire world, and how Egypt and Carthage were completely ahead of him that it was pathetic.

I looked at that save, he was right (well suas wasnt that strong but significantly stronger)

Now look at him

Yeah you all piddled around with your spaceships but still, look at what this guy has managed to pull off.

Epik if you want to end the game because of the bug, fine. But I think everyone who has kept up with this game will decide, Drake won unless you keep it going and win yourself, Drake sure as hell deserves it.

drake · May 2, 2001, 10:31

Suas, if you have 1000 or more in your treasury, your capital can be moved. On your turn, you had 1038 when I began my assault. As you know, after I nuked your capital, I didn't immediately take it, for you would have still had enough money to move your cap and save the ship. I was desperately looking for a city to take to bring your treasury down below 1000. I sent four other spies to other cities, hoping they could plant their nukes and open up a city so one of my units could march in and bring your treasury down enough. When that didnt work, I attempted to assault your cities with my howitzers. Un-fortunately I didnt have enough to take a city out completely. It was then I switched over to my transport in the Atlantic that I had sent from Africa. It had spies and several units as well and I was shocked when I reached Salzburg, the Puerto Rican city, and found with a spy that it was completely vacant! One unit there would have kept you afloat, but when I took the city, your treasury was brought down just enough, so that when I did occupy your capital, the treasury slipped below 1000 and the ship returned. Had I not taken Salzburg, I don't know what would have happened. By normal rules, you would have had enough money to move your capital. (1000 IS the number)

In Epiks case, he had more than enough to move his capital. He should have been able to, but the game basically screwed him out of it. I have a perfect save right before I took his capital that we can use for playtesting. But as I suggested, since the game will surely do the same thing if we take his cap again, I suggest that Epik can only move the cap this one time. Though the rules of the game may say "you can move the capital every time it gets sacked, as long as you have > 1000", I think this would be a most pathetic way to win a game. Not the way to win. If Epik applies himself, he can put together a very formidable army to defend his newly established capital. One that is near impossible to crack. If he consolidates his forces this way, he'd be very tough to stop, even with all other nations against him. We're only talking about holding out for 4 years here. Though I know Epik is pissed at the game, I think he would be a fool not to atleast try. Pretty cowardly too. If I'm not mistaken, I do believe that Carthage still would have the largest army on the planet. Well damnit use it! C'mon Epik, the challenge is on the table. Are you going to bring it or not?

I extend the offer again to be around tonight to try and work through this problem.

Oh and thanks for the compliments chris

suas333 · May 2, 2001, 15:01

Hey I'm not taking anything away from Drake at all! He did well in stopping the spaceships. I don't think you all understand, when you say move the capital you mean moving the capital for 1000 after it is taken. Well i'm saying that even if you move your capital, the Spaceship is destroyed. I guess i'm not positive but i'm pretty sure.

I'll agree to continue. Drake, maybe you should go ahead and try your luck with your own spaceship. Your plans will work but if all goes as you like (and i will help) we'll all live in a global warmed world where every nation has overmilitarized further hurting production with the ruined nuclear land. We'll have a bunch of nations with their own land and nothing to do except keep up their military. It could be a long long game then, but if thats what you want you are in the position to force it.

drake · May 2, 2001, 15:25

<center><table width=80%><tr><td>quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
I'll agree to continue. Drake, maybe you should go ahead and try your luck with your own spaceship. Your plans will work but if all goes as you like (and i will help) we'll all live in a global warmed world where every nation has overmilitarized further hurting production with the ruined nuclear land. We'll have a bunch of nations with their own land and nothing to do except keep up their military. It could be a long long game then, but if thats what you want you are in the position to force it.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></td></tr></table></center>

It sounds as though your enthusiasm for the game would be lacking if it was to continue. Though the idea of rebuilding a war torn world sounds like an admirable and challenging task to me, it may not to the rest of the players. I won't be putting up a spaceship. I don't like them. I don't think the landing of a spaceship is a very good marker for the end of a game. But there is a need for resolution in every game. I understand at some point it needs closure. So if continuing on would be more of a chore than fun for the rest of you, just let me know, and we can call the game. No need to flog a dead horse.

Everybody weigh in on what you want to do with our game. We all know what I want to do, but I will yield to the majority. I won't try "forcing" people to play, because that would strip out all the fun........

Epik · May 2, 2001, 16:57

All right, I have had a couple of days to cool off....

I have found a few threads in the Strategy forum that discuss the AI moving the capital and it kept the spaceship going to AC. I have not found anything specifically about MP and moving the capital. I think it is safe to assume that if the AI can do it, then a human player with 1000 gold should be able to do it.

If Suas had been aware of this, then my guess is that the game would be over and he would be the victor, since he was only 1 turn away from AC. He certainly had enough income to build up the same kind of capital move fund that I did.

The question that comes to my mind is should the game be restarted from the beginning of last Monday to give him a chance to move his capital? This would be messy since he would know what is coming and might adjust things to stop it. Even if he failed to get to AC, I would also know what was coming from Mongolia and could adjust my defenses to make it harder to capture my capital.

On the subject of limiting the capital move... I cannot agree with a limit. It was not a limit agreed to early in the game and my strategy was built on the ability to avoid spaceship destruction with multiple moves. I think that it is a resonable rule. It is not that big of a deal for a government to move during a war. The 1000 gold represents a resonable limit to me. What is lame to me is that you can stop the spaceship after launch. It seems to make more sense that a spaceship can be destroyed while it is being built, but once it is on its way it would be self sufficient and not need any help from earth.

I am not very excited about letting the AI take over at the point of capital capture. My guess is that it would make a bad decission. I suppose the best choices would be to move to England or to the city I have on a mountain.

I have tried to remember exactly what happened when I was given the choice to move the capital. It was the first time I had ever seen that popup message, and I took some time to read it. I now wonder if I selected the option to move quickly enough. Perhaps the game closed the popup and defaulted to not moving the capital just before I clicked on the option I wanted. Seems unlikely, but it might have happened that way.

Regardless, I am willing to give it another try. I was looking forward to launching a counter attack against the invading hoard.

The Capo · May 2, 2001, 17:18

I am of the staunch position that you should NEVER replay anything in a diplogame. There is no reason to do it at all. It ruins the strategy of the whole situation and I think this game must continue.

At this point Drake has pretty much won the game, but then again me and a few others (as Chris pointed out) were saying the exact same thing about Saus. Dedication (and a little prodding from some people to get off yer' ass) combined with the willingness to be defeated have made Drake the ruler of the world in the Monday Night Diplogame. I think you four owe it to yourselves and the community to finish this game.

On a side note look at the world you guys created! You had Epik who's race was supposedly the ancestry of an alien species, you had a world where the Neanderthals survived and lived side by side with humans (and wound up supporting a religious fanatic bent on destroying the world), you had This Being Milk Inc. an evil corporation who's ability to expand its own wealth and influence turned the former Republic into a dominating cult bent on claiming an entire planet (Alpha Centauri) for its own...

Then you had Mongolia, a gigantic backwards country. The seat of the United Nations. It never applied for the job as protector of the planet, but when the chips fell they were the United Nations. They saved the Earth despite the greatest odds against them. This is an awesome story, and to let the ****ing game mechanics or some stupid bug ruin that story would be a tragedy.

Play on! You owe it to yourselves and the community!

suas333 · May 2, 2001, 22:14

SO its true that moving the capital keeps the spaceship? I'm so embarrassed for calling myself a civ veteran and not knowing this hehe.

While i don't think there is much of a winner in diplogames, i gotta hand the best civ to be Drake's Mongolia. I was all for law and organization, but when i saw a neanderthal threat and a possible Carthagian victory, i bailed out. Drake kept with it, even followed UN laws when no other civ did, just to set an example.

I know Desdenova is willing to sacrifice his own hard-won cities and power in order to create a peaceful world basically after a Nuclear Holocaust. If everyone is up to do this we really need a de-militarization plan. Hour and a half rounds is just too long to rebuild. If most of the military is gone at least the game will go a little quicker. After everyone has gotten themselves back in order it will be interesting to see what nations do. It'll take a long time from now and i don't know if i wanna play this game far into summer...but i'll leave it up to you guys to play on.

Of course, i had so much fun playing from the very beginning.

May 3, 2001, 04:52

Look you guys, Drake won this game.

I get scrwed by bugs all the time and just analagise them to things beyond my control. I recognise this is quite a big one for Epik but, oh well, you guys played a brilliant game to the end. You are all winners!

I agree with Capo - don't replay anything. It's plain silly.

Well done Drake, I dub thee Sir Francis Drake

ROTFLMAO!

------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

drake · May 3, 2001, 09:48

Alright, here's my take.

Me and Epik got together last night to do a little playtesting to see if in fact, the bug would happen in MP again. It did. Twice. So really the only way we could backtrack past the bug was for me to try going through the cap in single player mode. We saved right before I was to take his cap. I reloaded in single player, took the cap, and his capital sucessfully moved. I saved immediately after and now we have an uptodate save, in which things were set the way they should be. I've replayed turns for much less petty things, and I don't think it hurts this game in any way.

Anyway........................I think my challenge to Epik should be the way to go. Its the only logical thing to do.

In any case, it was great. A great story that developed into a superb game.

I would personally just hate to stop now. We've built (and destroyed somewhat

) a world that has great potential to be reformed. Forget winning or losing, we can make the world a wonderfully thriving place. Maybe it's just my playing style, but winning or losing never really crossed my mind. I'm a builder. That's my style. Seeing the world conform into something beautiful and productive is always my goal. Getting irrigation into the heart of Asia was a great accomplishment for me. Seeing every city in Asia linked by Rail was also a great moment. I'd love to try turning this damaged world around...........

It's just that we've come so far.............I hate giving up on games. Especially ones that deserve a proper ending.......

At this point, I think Epik should take up the challenge I propose, or we should call it right here. As I was telling him last night, he has the best defended country in the world and he has no excuse to lose another city. None. He has as many troops as Mongolia, and more than Egypt. He has like 180 units in 28 cities. I have 180 units in 105 cities. My nation is spread so far it's ridiculous. He gets a good plan together, a good counter-attack against me and tightens up his d, I don't think even with the other Nations help, we'll be able to crack Carthage.

We're only talking 4 years here Epik! C'mon! Take off the skirt! Gather enough sack and confidence in your nation and lets go forward with this. We don't even need to contemplate the future of this game if you can hold out and land the ship. As I said last night, I'm gonna give it all I got, but I think the odds are stacked in your favor............

What does anyone else think?

cavebear · May 3, 2001, 23:13

It has always been my understanding that if a human capital goes down for any reason, the SS dies with it. I don't think you can consider it a "bug". I've played a few MP games to that point, and no one has ever thought they could just move their capitol around to evade loss of the SS.

Sorry.

GNGSpam · May 4, 2001, 00:07

I always hated a spacerace. Its not a good way to determine who won.

May 4, 2001, 01:42

Yeah, I totally agree with cavebear.

MP is different to SP with different programming in many regards.

------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

drake · May 4, 2001, 09:19

Well if you guys think that this is the case, we need to get it straight and in a hurry...........

The Capo · May 4, 2001, 10:26

I think Epik is wrong to think he could save his ship.

The capital was destroyed or taken, so the ship is gone. Then you have the option of creating a new capital. The damage has already been done to the ship though.

You know what I'm saying?

suas333 · May 4, 2001, 11:41

Thanks this is what i was trying to say in the last few posts. When the capital is taken, first it says Spaceship is sent back to earth or destoyed, then next it asks if you have the cash to move the capital. I don't think they have much to do with each other. Otherwise destoying a spaceship would be way too hard.

If this is the case we can either end it here with the Mongols controlling most of the earth. Or we can go on since Mongols want to try to rebuild the earth.

GNGSpam · May 4, 2001, 13:22

The only reason I believe Drake wants to continue is to pacify Epik.

Drake deserves to call himself the "winner"

Stop being a spoiled sport Epik and admit it

Epik · May 4, 2001, 15:56

Sigh.

I do not think I deserve to be accused of being a spoiled sport because I feel that Civ 2 MP has end game bugs which have screwed up the completion of this game. I worked hard to get my tribe to the point where I thought I had a chance to win, and game bugs have appeared that made that work wasted.

The facts are that we have encountered at least 2 and what I consider to be 3 major bugs in the game.

1. The game shut down when Suas built the Apollo wonder. We managed to continue by letting Suas build the wonder with all of the other tribes under AI control. While this got us around the game shut down, the AI did move many of Drake's units and he had to clean that up. It delayed his war effort, and the capture of Suas' capital was almost not in time to stop his spaceship.

2. When the big war started, to stop Suas' spaceship, we found that the Egyptians were given gold each time they lost a city. Suas was good enough to give what he thought was due to the conqueror of the city, but I am not sure he could get the amounts right. I actually feel that he gave us too much gold.

3. The game does not move the capital after the capture. What happens is that you get a popup asking if you want to move it. I selected yes. Next another popup is displayed and it says the spaceship is returned. The capital is NOT moved when human players are involved. However it is moved when and AI is involved. Drake and I set it up so the AI would be in control of my tribe when he captured my capital, and the AI did move it. I also tested it by allowing the AI to perform the capture. Again, I got the popup asking whether I wanted it moved. I selected yes, and this time it moved the capital. It did not give me a choice of locations, but it did move the capital and deducted 1000 gold from my treasury.

What makes you guys think that the game should be different in this area for human players? I know that the AI gets some advantages, such as better production rates, but I came to the conclusion that humans could move their capital and save the ship, since the AI could.

When I developed my strategy for this game, I reviewed the manual and many of the threads in the Strategy Forum. The book seems to indicate that the ship can only be destroyed before launch, but it is not very clear on this point. The threads I found talked of how you can use 1000 gold to move the capital and save your ship. They did not say that this could only be done in SP mode. Perhaps I missed something. Where do you derive your information when you say that the ship is always destroyed in human MP games?

In my opinion it is a bug. The game offers to move it and then does not move it. When the AI is involved, the capital is moved. The inconsistancy here does not make any sense to me.

It seems to me that I have to expect better quality from a game that has been around this long. It stinks when you put over 5 months of effort into a game and then find out it has major bugs that dramatically effect the outcome.

When this game started back in November, reaching AC was the victory condition. I suppose world domination was always an option, but the fact that it is a Diplo Game makes that unlikely. Perhaps you want to play this game forever, but I do not. It is the nature of gaming to have a victor.

For me, this game was fun up to the point of the Apollo bug. Since then it has been a pain. This was not the fault of the players, it was the fault of the game developers.

As for the future of this particular game...

Modern warfare sucks, it slows the game to a crawl. As Suas says, each round is now taking over an hour. It is likely that this could increase to 2 hours or more, once I began a full counter-offensive. Drake and I both have close to 200 units each, and will probably move over 100 of those each turn.

I guess I really do not see a way to bring this game to a conclusion that will return us to the time when it was fun and not so frustrating.

GNGSpam · May 4, 2001, 16:53

Lets be logical

Ok your spaceship lands but Drake, basically, takes over the world.

Drake then builds a spaceship capable of carrying 200,000 people, something easily accomplished with world domination and promptly outsettles you on AC.

What im trying to say, how does going to AC cause you to win?

Take for example in HOTW. America was empty. Drake was the first to arrive. He does NOT control all of America. Though people arrived later, Drake has only about 25% of America, with the other majority shares going to China, Australia, and Mali.

If you land on AC with 10,000 people, but that is literally the last of your Empire, while Drake can settle, admittly later, but still has the full support of the world....

I mean come on.

But your right, this game needs an end, and to end it, shouldnt you admit defeat?

I think Drakes miraculous capture of both Capitals makes a good ending.

Epik · May 4, 2001, 17:16

AC was the victory condition set at the beginning of the game.

It does not make sense the change once the game is in progress.

sekong · May 4, 2001, 17:51

There is no doubt that drake did a great job to capture both capitals. But I have to be one that support Epic about the bug of CIV2 MP.

If you have been playing CIV long enough, I suppose most of us do, you should know the CIV2 MP was kinda of a add-on patch to the original CIV2. And it was not a good patch. It tried to make a old SP game into a MP version, but it was a patch with a lot of bugs. Fortunately, many early game bugs was easy to catch and be fixed, that's the version 1.3 we are playing. But some later game bugs was not be noticed, till this Monday night Diplo game. As Epic list above, they are obviously bugs: The Apollo one, the Egypt money bug and the MP capital Moving bug. Espacially the last one. In a recent game, I noticed as long as the AI can move their capital, their un-launched SS is still there. Until it does not have money to capital. Plus, if as Epic said, if his SS can survive when AI is controlling his civ, then it should the way it suppose to be. Period.

I also agree with Epic that arriving AC as the closure condition of the game. Control the whole world be single CIV is just too un-realistic in a dipo game. Although to declare who is the winner is another story. For a GAME last almost half year, each player have its right to define the winner in his own way. At long as you enjoyed it...

Finally, I want to thanks your group to discover these later game bugs, so other players who want to play that long could know it before hand, and decide how to deal with them. And I hope the CIV3 will be better one, since it should have considerred the MP problem from beginning.

O-LA

May 4, 2001, 18:55

I'm still confused here.

Aren't you all still skirting around what suas is saying?
IE the ORDER of the dialogs.
1) Capital captured
2) SS destroyed
3) choice of new capital in SP mode

If so, then suas is correct and the discussion is irrelevant!
Drake has destroyed both SS, now play on!!!
OR, declare Drake the winner.

I think there is a BIG difference between SP and MP wins. If humans could just keep moving their capital around it would be way too hard but in SP where the AI is SO EASY to beat it's NOT a problem!!

BTW You can as humans still move your capital by BUILDING a palace in a city of choice

This would have been a better strategy for Epik.
Makeo did that to me once and called his capital NONE and called two other cities NONE! One of them had the NEW PALACE in it!! LOL

But I nailed them all

That money bug occurs in SP mode too, BTW.

------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924
[This message has been edited by deity (edited May 04, 2001).]

Epik · May 4, 2001, 19:51

Sekong, I was not aware that MP was a "patch". Does anyone think that this is worth a report to MicroProse? Do you know where to report bugs?

Diety...

The order of events are:

1. Capital is captured by Drake

2. The game informs me that my capital has been overrun and asks if I want to move the capital at the cost of 1000 gold. I choose to move it.

3. A message is displayed saying my ship has returned to earth (it is destroyed).

4. The capital is not moved (so on top of everything else you have to build a palace).

There is a signifcant difference when I let the AI perform the capture. The game states the city that the capital will be moved to (no choice of city is given). When the AI controls either the defender or the attacker, then the capital is moved. No city was named when Drake and I were in control, and no move took place.