Tales from the Monday Night Diplo Front - The Climax

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Epik on 05-04-2001 07:51 PM</font>
Sekong, I was not aware that MP was a "patch". Does anyone think that this is worth a report to MicroProse? Do you know where to report bugs?

Diety...

The order of events are:

1. Capital is captured by Drake

2. The game informs me that my capital has been overrun and asks if I want to move the capital at the cost of 1000 gold. I choose to move it.

3. A message is displayed saying my ship has returned to earth (it is destroyed).

4. The capital is not moved (so on top of everything else you have to build a palace).

There is a signifcant difference when I let the AI perform the capture. The game states the city that the capital will be moved to (no choice of city is given). When the AI controls either the defender or the attacker, then the capital is moved. No city was named when Drake and I were in control, and no move took place.


<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

OK Epik, thanks.
I really feel for you on this one but your sequence of events makes total sense to me in an MP game.

Your capital is taken..
sure you may be asked to move it (that is the bug)
and of course, it is quite clear that a captured capital has the SS destroyed. This is how the programming code should go IMHO.

Since my Makeo (1st MP game ever) I've understood that the only way to save your capital is to spend the time, resources and strategic planning in relocating your capital ahead of its capture by building another palace.
This makes much more sense in an MP game. Otherwise the precision required in taking out capitals ends up being "ya gotta get all their cities" provided they have the cash to keep moving their capital.

Did you really base your whole strategy on something like this that you'd never done before in MP?

Sorry, don't mean to be annoying..................

I hope to play you in a diplo some day soon?

Maybe the best of HOTW2 and this one could get a game together?

BTW It's deity Perhaps it should be DIety though but I'm not fat!

------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[cavebear]

Diety has the sequence correct. The capitol is detroyed or undone diliberately. The SS is "returned" (which really means ended, but maybe you get the settlers credited to the city, I'm not sure), then the option is available to build a palace in another city.

Think of how it would go without a SS. Your capital is destroyed, the program asks if you want to establish a new one. In the meantime, you suffer the consequences of the loss of a capital. With a SS involved, you lose that too.

[cavebear]

But I also want to say that this game sounds like one of the best-played ones ever, and all of you should be proud of that. It's a shame that it came down to a misunderstanding of capitals and SS's, but the fireworks at the end were rather spectacular!

The scribes will make songs of this struggle for many decades!

[suas333]

Thanks i'm pretty confident that a launched SS does become destoyed one the capital is taken despite how much money a civ has. So i think we can all congratulate Drake for a well played end, and i sure had fun throughout our game.

You all should be congratulated for seeing this game thorugh to the end. That is rare.

------------------
Founder, Dear Leader and Great Helmsman of PROT -the People's Republic Off Topic www.delphi.com/prot1

[drake]

All controversy aside...........are we continuing and with what save are we continuing with?

I vote to play on giving Epik a 5 year window to hold his new capital that was created last week while working through the issue. He holds on, he wins. He doesnt hold on, we can either end the game there or keep on playing into a new world order. I would really like this challenge, but it might not be as fun for everyone else as it would for me.

Cast your votes here Epik, Sun and Suas.

The game has been great and whether it has a declared "winner" or not, it always will be...........I'll be on tommorow to see what you guys say............

[SunTzu]

I don't care

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by SunTzu on 05-06-2001 06:57 PM</font>
I don't care
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Well, that was an inspired statement



------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[Epik]

I will show up at the usual time tonight.

I have expressed my opinion and it remains the same. The capital should be able to be moved as long as you have 1000 gold. However, I will accept the one time move for the sake of the continuation of this game.

I think the victory condition should remain what it was when the game began. I understand that to be reaching Alpha Centauri. This has been a Diplo Game, which means that we keep all players in the game, and therefore it excludes world domination as a victory condition.

I do not understand what you mean by establishing a New World Order. I have no desire to sit around cleaning up pollution and making my cities pretty. The technology and wonder challenges are complete, so we are left with war and spaceship building.

If we decide to continue, please realize that the turns may become very long. I know my turn will be long, because I will be launching a counter-offensive to retake my cities and I plan to invade Asia. It will probably involve the movement of over 50 units, and there is no way I can do it quickly.

I am not really sure how long it will take, but I would not be surprised if it took an hour for just for my move. We have seen how long it took when Drake went on his conquest of Africa and NorthEast Asia. It is not that the players are slow, it is just a result of the fact that we have built so many units and we have lots of railroads to move them long distances. I am not sure how long my patience will hold up, but I am willing to try it. Are you?

[drake]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>I think the victory condition should remain what it was when the game began. I understand that to be reaching Alpha Centauri
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

See this is where I get confused. Why is winning so damn important? I don't think we ever said at any point, that we're playing to the modern era and having a space race did we? No I'm quite sure we never said this, for I would have said right then that I'm not interested in this. I don't ever play with spaceships. Never had, never will. I find the idea that "winning" by landing a ship somewhere light years away is really silly. Anyway, the point I'm making is, who cares who "wins"? The idea of a single victor totally goes against the diplo idea, if we're going to get down to that. A single winner means everyone else loses. How is this different from a world conquest? Whats so diplomatic about building a ship that in essence dooms everyone else?

What has always interested me about civ is the evolution of the world and the people that run it. I would really like to see what a post world war world would look like. There are many scenarios that we could create as a group to continue playing with the world we created. If you ask me, this is where the game starts getting interesting. I don't understand why interest in continuing the game stops here. There is so much potential for this game to go forward.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>I do not understand what you mean by establishing a New World Order. I have no desire to sit around cleaning up pollution and making my cities pretty. The technology and wonder challenges are complete, so we are left with war and spaceship building.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Where is your imagination Epik? Is winning all this game has been about? Saving this world from global warming would be quite an undertaking. A far more honorable and interesting undertaking than building a spaceship. It would be a challenge. Civ allows so many possibilities..why do you want to continue on the same tired beaten down path?

I'll be there at 6 tonight, patience on my side........however, if there is no fun involved for sun or suas the game is over. I don't think forcing them to do something they don't want is any good. So you two sound off ASAP. Sun, a yes or no answer would be good.

[GNGSpam]

Actually a diplogame is the EXACT place World Domination becomes feasible.

While in other games people are completely unwilling to make deals, forcing you to use military violence, in a diplogame using various forms of diplomacy and negotiation, you can dominate your neighbors without killing them. Through various treaties and alliances, you can come to basically rule the world...as long as your allies dont decide to overthrow you...

Its the beauty of a diplogame

There is no negotiation in space travel, its just pretty lame

[suas333]

I know you've all been readig a lot of stuff, but bear with me for one more post. First of all i do believe that the SS gets destoyed despite the gold, but either way lets just assume the game goes on with the ship destoyed.

Drake, I agree that there is no real winning in a diplogame. The whole reason they are fun is that you can do whatever you please, be as small or large as you like. In your position, you have the power to do what your civ likes to do. If would prefer to try and build up the world rather than build a ship, thats fine.
However, you also have to respect what Epik wants. He says his civ will continue fighting. And thats fine, he doesn't have to accept your plans for the world unless you can strike a deal with him.

Now i think we could go on playing with this situation. I would probably adhere to drake and epik would continue a war. This unfortunately would mean 1-2 rounds per session and i have to say i don't think its worth it. I can't make it tonite at 6, if i could be here i probably would. This isn't too bad an ending. And while it was fun we can't just keep playing forever. So I do vote to stop here with a nice attack from drake and a very sincere promise for the future. If you guys vote to go on, i'll be here next week.

suas

[Epik]

Suas can't make it, so I am gonna do some other stuff tonite.

[Epik]

Sorry Drake, but I cannot play this game forever. It is a game and in my opinion requires a conclusion. Civ 2 has 2 victory conditions the AC and world domination. It was clear to me, that AC would be the one that we would use. When we were approaching the completion of Apollo, I even brought up that point to make sure that there was not some other victory condition that the other players had in mind.

No, winning is not what all of the game has been about. A large portion of the fun of the game takes place before you get to the conclusion. I had fun during the game, but at all times, I was playing to win. The competion added to the excitement. I never did understand why you refused to attempt to build a spaceship, when I offered you the technology.

I have never reached the point of landing on AC in a multiplayer game. This is the first time I have gotten much past the railroad tech. So I do not consider this to be a "beaten path".

There is not much else left to play for, since the wonders and techs are all gone. Stopping global warming is not much of a challenge. If the war stopped, it would only take one turn to clean up the nuke damage.

This game must end so that you can begin another. A new game would be much more interesting than continuing this one without a victory condition.

[drake]

This game looks like it is over..........someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Epik]

Yeah lets call it here. I am tired of complaining. I can get rather stuborn when I think I am right, and that mood will probably spoil what is left of the game for me. I also am not looking forward to the long turns that would be coming up.

I would rather remember the fun times I had in this game. I had a blast being the destroyer of ancient wonders. The great tech race was exciting. SilkRiver was a great science city, producing over 400 beakers at times. It took a lot of work to keep up with Suas and his 70+ cities. I always wanted to build more cities, but there always seemed to be something else that I needed to do with my settlers.

Looking back there are a few things I would change at the start. I think the Americas should have been left empty at the start. I would also improve the land in the southern hemisphere to give all the players a more equal start. It seems that the Neanderthals and Mongols fell behind early because of the poor terrain in the south.

I would like to thank SunTzu for picking up and sticking with the backward Neanderthals. I think he improved them a lot, and seemed to have some fun being barbaric.

I am gonna take a break from Civing for awhile. It was a long hard struggle getting a game to the modern era. I must have started 25 and this is the only one that got there. I thank you all for that experience. Now that I have been there, I am disappointed with the problems we encountered, but the fun I had along the way will not be forgotten.

I still think the game needs a victory condition, but AC does not seem to be a popular one. Perhaps someone will come up with a better way to bring the game to a conclusion.

Again... Thanks for the game Suas, Drake, SunTzu and the original Neanderthal Clay Pigeon.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Epik (edited May 08, 2001).]</font>

[drake]

Yes my friends, it has been a great journey and I thank you all for your time and dedication.

I will write up a nice Mongolian history and it would be great if everyone else could do the same, just so we have proper closure.......I plan to write it so it goes from "once upon a time" to "the end".

As with Epik, this is the first real game that I have truly finished. It is the best civ game I ever played bar none. I can only hope that current and future games can hold up to my now very high expectations.

Suas, Epik, Sun and Clay, I hope to meet you again on the field sometime, its been a pleasure....................


PS: Hope we all learned that we shouldnt underestimate someone, especially when their backs to the wall!

[Clay Pigeon]

Wow what a game, what a finish. Congratulations to all
I realy thought Suas333 would take the game. He did have the better start and a strong economy. It is too bad for Epik. I was also ignorant of the $1000.00 gold rule. mabe a case of too much knowlage hurts, or a case of Murphys law. Drake supprised me. that was a dam good play, to take both capitols. I want to thank SunTzu for taking the backward non human tribe, and taking them to the end.
All in all it is a better game that ends in controversy.

------------------
if i display a lack of skill, please note the enthusiasm