More questions from the novice

[Monkey]

Hi all,

Just thought I post more questions again..

1) Is it possible to have a sustained WLTKD under democracy and republic and still maintain a decent science rate? eg 4-5 turns.

2)How many settlers should I have running around the field doing terrain improvements? I currently have settlers on auto and the AI's always pick them of with airplanes. SHould i not use the auto settler?

3)Is there a strategy revolving around good placements and usage of fortifications in defense of cities?

4)I'm not seeing a disadvantage with Fundamentalism here. It's got creates more gold, has faster production and able to support more units than republic or democracy. The science rate is bad but surely you put gold to zero with all the tithes and the science rate would stay at a reasonable rate. Or you just build million of spys and just steal any tech from the enemy. So is fundamentalism the unbalanced government?

[Carolus Rex]

My two cents.

1) Yes, at least in demo late in the game with established trade routes and city improvements like marketplaces, banks, and stock exchanges.

2) I never use the auto settler, it stinks. I want control over my settlers, I hope they don't eliminate them in Civ3. More strategy involved in how to use them than most players think.

3) Yes. When defending your own territory, fortresses in choke points and/or in rough terrain can help a lot in the premodern eras. After that they lose somewhat in importance IMHO. Easier to sidestep them with far going transports.

When I attack on my own, fortresses can also be useful. Charge some settlers or engineers (if you don't have a lot of them) by putting them to work on your backyard, say mining for a few turns. Abort that mission and send them over with the invasion force, building instant fortresses to prevent the AI from reaching lost cities.

4) Yes, I think fundy is unbalanced. But if you want to reach AC as early as possible I would skip it all together. So it depends on your goal and strategy (as always ).

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited October 31, 1999).]

[Matthew]

You may be able to set science at higher than 50% in Fundy, but it won't do you any good if you can, because only 50% of your trade can go into science. But science from caravan bonuses are 100 %, so if you have a good caravan system going, and can celebrate (for the extra trade in cities, which leads to higher bonuses) you can still keep up in science in fundy, and even get some vital techs first.

Never automate settlers.

In single production I like to have a settler for every city above size 3 doing terrain improvements. With a good road system, and especially with engineers you can make do with less. and still always have newly preped terrain for your new citizens, or prepare for WLTD growth. An ICS player would tell you that I suggest way too many settlers, and that you would be better off just building a couple of roads, and then a city. Depends on your style of play. But if you don't have settlers terraformin`g you had best have some building cities.

In Double Production multiplayer games terrain improvement pays off a lot less compared to city building, so you should have fewer settlers doing terrain improvement if you have room to expand, unless you have another good reason to keep down your number of cities. But they do come in handy cleaning up pollution from a city with lot's of trees.
[This message has been edited by Matthew (edited October 31, 1999).]

[johnmcd]

Its not too difficult to have that type of science rate while blowing almost everything on luxuries (providing everywhere is fully libed and unied, I have had science at 10% and managed a discovery every two turns! (I was shocked though) Once you have had a WLT running for a few turns it will pay you back many times over for the rest of the game, and is well worth doing.

I like to have two settlers per town as soon as I can afford to. It allows for more growth once you are ready to be loved and ensures you have plenty of roads and the like linking your cities.

Automating settlers is not wise unless you are playing at an easy difficulty, or have the game in the bag and just want to finish as quickly as possible.

I have never built a fort, but find the ones the AI builds very useful, so I guess I would mimic its strategy in this respect.. although maybe they are only useful for invasion, not defence

I used to like Fundementalism, but found my towns being bought too much of a pain (the final straw was when I had Mike's, Bach's, Copernicus's, Isacc's and the Hoover Dam all bought on the same turn). So now I only use Democracy, and as soon as possible. It is annoying having to micromanage the happiness, but it does pay off, and so long as you have SOL, UN and Women's Sufferage it is possible to conduct the same level of bloody war that is so easy under Fundementalism, without the negative impacts.

[jpk]

For my responses I will assume that you are playing on a multicontinent world.

1) It is possible to have We Love The Consul or President Day and still get a science every 4 to 5 turns. Set your luxuries to 20% or 30% and build lots of caravans. If you can't think of a very good reason why you should build something other than a caravan, build a caravan. Of course you will need to build lots of ships so that your caravans can get off the continent on which they were built.

2) I usually have 1 settler per city. If you are in Republic or Democracy, you will lose a lot of growth with two settlers. On the other and I rarely have all my grassland in farms by the end of a game so maybe I should have some cities with two settlers or engineers.

3) I rarely build forts. Exceptions are mainly caused by discovering a city on a distant continent and wanting to protect it from AI diplomats and other hostile acts.

4) I do not play fundamentalist so I can not comment about the money you get from tithes. If you push caravans REALLY HARD under Democracy and you build Adam Smith you can have all the money you want with a tax rate of 10%. If you then run a luxury rate of 20% to 30%, you get a lot of science from your cities. A viable strategy is to sail to the AI capitol with a ship or two (two galleons or one transport) loaded with offensive units (one from each city so you don't have disorder problems) and diplomats or spies, knock out the capitol, and then bribe or subvert the remaining cities. Repeat as often as necessary. If you choose this strategy, take on the most powerful or most advanced AI civilization first.

If you are using diplomats to steal advances, you do not have a technological edge. It is much simpler to win a battle when your units are superior to the AI's units.

One final item: Lately I have noticed the AI civilizations often build the Great Wall in a city other than the capitol. In this situation an effective strategy is to sail a ship or two filled with caravans and two diplomats over to that AI civilization, cash in the caravans, and bribe or subvert the city with the Great Wall. It is a good idea to have two diplomats so the city can have a diplomat for protection. Build a courthouse as soon as possible so that the AI will have a harder time retaking the city through bribery.

I realize that lately all of my messages have read the same. BUILD MORE CARAVANS! Perhaps I should give it a rest.

[Ming]

No... don't give it a rest. You can never have enough caravans

I liked your line, "If you can't think of a very good reason why you should build something other than a caravan, build a caravan."

So true, so true!

[DaveV]

For those who are relatively new to these forums: the only reason ever to use auto-settlers is that then you can use the AIs' cheat of being able to irrigate land regardless of its proximity to water. This is, of course, a cheesy and low-down trick.

With respect to fortresses: I can't recall ever building one outside OCC. As you conquer enemy territory, the front line moves but your forts don't. In the early game, the AIs rarely summon up the courage to attack me. If they do, they'll usually scamble for peace before they do any real damage. Lastly, it's yet another way for settlers to waste time instead of doing their real job, building more cities.

Fundamentalism: the perfect goverment for ICS, especially with MC and/or JSBC. By the time you can build all this stuff, you should already be well on your way to conquering the world, so research becomes unnecessary.

[catullus]

1) My last OCC (I finally made it, landed in 1964), I had advances every two turns + WLTPD for the last 5 years of the 19th century.

2) 1 settler for each 1 to 2 cities seems OK. AI loves to pick settlers. Bastards. Auto-settling is (almost) always worse than manual control. (Exception: magic irrigation.) But I do use it if my civ grows too huge. I hate moving sp many units by hand, and they are very good at finding pollution squares.

3) Yes.

4) Only when you already are on top or near it. IMHO, of course.

C.

[Carolus Rex]

Catullus, congrats on your successful OCC!

And to instantly bring you down to earth again ( ), have you read about Paul's new (unofficial) record yet? I think it is down to 1771 AD now...

DaveV,

Against the AI nothing really matters. IMHO that doesn't mean the "instant fortress" is bad tactics.

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited November 01, 1999).]

[Steve Clark]

4) In my last game, I discovered that Communism is also unbalanced. In switching from Fund to Comm, the gold only went down 20% (I forgot the rate I set), but science went from 19 turns down to 5(?) turns and I didn't have any problems with unhappiness. This was the only time I had done and it was close to the end of the game, so I don't know the full advantages/disadvantages in other situations.

[Monkey]

No one here uses auto settler? And it's considered a cheap and dirty tactic? Wow... does that mean that in multiplayer there should be a no auto settler rule. I move my settlers manually only to build the main roads between my cities then i set them to auto for them to build the surrounding roadlets around my cities and also to irrigate them. Don't tell me use guys move every settler and irrigating them and building the roadlets by hand? Would that take a long time each turn when you have about 20 cities? 20 cities = 20 settlers... moving 20 settlers manually?

Also hardly anyone here seems to use fortifications to protect their cities. Okay does that mean that no one here puts garisson guards outside their cities as well or do you just not build fortifications.

I'm also begining to understand the virtue of building caravans but is it considered a trespassing violation if I move caravans to an enemy's territory... same question with explorers.

Also at what point in the game should I considered my game as being lost? In my current king game everyone hates me and the most technological AI is on par in tech then I am. However he has more cities, greater production and a larger army with nukes. Should I even bother attempting the spaceship or should I consider the game as lost.

sorry about all these questions but what would be an appropriate goal list for the "builder" strategy. Here's what i have done

1) Get to monarchy ASAP
2) try and win colossus
3) Infrastructure buildup(temples and market places for most cities) roads and irrigation started
4) caravans for trade
5) Mike's chapel and Leos' workshop
6) Republic after Mike's
7) Democracy
8) Maintain the 3 tech per turn (WLTKD somewhere in between)
9) Aim for Hoover's and Women's suffrage.

Obviously something's not working here because i am losing.

ps johnmcd what is SOL?

[jpk]

Monkey,

Rather than position units outside a city I have a two or three movement unit in the city and each turn I move it around looking for AI units, especially diplomats or spies. This eliminates the possibiliity that an isolated unit can be bribed. Of course the AI could bribe the entire city. Moving like this would take a very long time if I did it for every city. In practice I only do this for isolated cities or cities that abut an AI civilization.

You say try and win the Colossus. I am not sure what you mean by this. Build it yourself. That way you can build it in a city that will generate a lot of trade.

Building roads between your cities is a good idea. Unless you have no excess food, I would hold off on extensive irrigation. Exceptions are for cities you want to be as large as possible as soon as possible. For example any city with the Colossus, Coperincus, Newton, or King Richard.

Building roads is very important. If someone is working a plains or grassland square that square should have a road. If you have a pheasant, irrigate it into a buffalo. You lose one food, you gain one shield, and you get trade.

When developing a city you have to build temples fairly early. While market places, libraries, and the like are really nice, you will get a lot more benefits from building caravans. Even though a city has three trade routes, if you can build a caravan with something else do it. If you build lots of caravans you will have lots of money. Don't be afraid to spend it. Ming says I should not give this a rest. Eventually your cities will require some improvements or entertainers. That is the time to build marketplaces, etc.

If you play on a multicontinent world you will sometimes find islands that have two or three AI cities. Sail up to the island with a ship full of diplomats and bribe or subvert them all in one or two turns. This is one way to spend the money. If you cut the AI civilizations down in size at an early stage, they will be much easier to conquer at a later stage. Also a small AI civilization will have a harder time beating you in a space race.

I never use auto settler, so I can not comment on on well it works. From my point of view I know whether a certain city's most pressing need is roads, irrigation, or what not. Furthermore I may decide to have a settler wander off an build roads to the site of a future city. If my settlers were on autopilot, I would probably forget to do this type of work. I don't see how the AI unit is going to do any of this better than I. Look at the way the AI develops the land around its cities.

I don't know whether you can win your current game. Why not use it to practice different strategies? I'm not very good at fighting against nukes so maybe others could suggest a good strategy for taking cities.

[valmont]

Monkey,

If you are at peace with the AI, it will leave your caravans and explorers alone. A caravan has no attack so the AI will never ask you to withdraw. Enemy caravans approaching your cities are generally no threat, and unlike military units they won't displace your workers. If you are at war, sometimes it will leave them alone and sometimes it will attack them. I don't know if there's a pattern.

Call me crazy, but I enjoy controlling my settlers/engineers. I don't usually have more than ten, but it's rare that I have to move all of them in the same turn.

[Carolus Rex]

No need for a MP rule about not using automated settlers. Not as much because of the limited use of the irrigation trick, but because the AI screws things up. It doesn't know how to use the settlers optimally (or even in a decent way). I think very few players use automated settlers, in any game.

I try to avoid putting units outside my cities. Protecting them that way requires a lot of units. Better to have the defenders inside the cities taking advantage of defence enhancing improvements (which I build in contested areas or in front cities).

Manned fortresses in bottlenecks is one way to prevent units of any kind to enter your territory. If I can spare a settler I might build a city instead. City walls in rough terrain together with the barracks is a good combo. The AI will knock itself out trying to take such a city. A courthouse reduces the risk of bribery.

Keep on struggling in that game, it sounds challenging and fun!

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited November 02, 1999).]

[Ming]

I would never put a settler on auto pilot unless I need irrigation in the middle of some desert... the AI just doesn't know how to use them right.

And CR offers the best advice. Find the bottlenecks/chokepoints, and get at least two units there (save from bribes) and then build a fortress when you can. There is no need to waste time patrolling if they can't get at you... now, once navies start being built, that's a different story

[Sten Sture]

Monkey - SoL is the Statue of Liberty. Cheers!

[Ilkka]

Automated settler really stink in civ2 as someone already said, but in future I would like to see automated settler controlled by artificial intelligence not by artificial idiot! Moving 100-200 engineer every turn take a long time.

[tobyr]

If an automated settler is simply not allowed to leave the city it is currently in, it will improve land in that city and go back to manual when all straightforward improvements have been made. How difficult is this for AI?

(A) move a minimum distance (give preference to squares with cits on them) that need improvement to a square that needs a road, irrigation (that does not transform) or mining (that does not transform); improve it; but postpone changes to lousy lands that are not occupied by citizens, such as (see step C):
(B) If two irrigations at most would bring in needed irrigation to other valuable squares, do those.
(C) (do the same on these next):
tundra, desert, etc.
(D) After doing those, if some percentage of a city's squares are forest, jungle (etc.), mine/irrigate them to change them. [Have a game option to turn this step off.]
(E) Enginners similarly would transform if all else is done [Have an option to turn this off].
- when all such improvements are done,
return to manual mode. Do not improve city squares currently worked by a foreign city.

Placing a unit in auto mode that is OUTSIDE of a city should only have the function of causing it to connect nearby cities efficiently with roads/railroads. Come out of auto mode as soon as it is not obvious how to do this, or if the needed road is more than N squares (N approx = 5).

Placing a unit in auto mode that is in an enemy city should cause it to stay in the city and pillage.


- toby robison

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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com