Wonders o' the world... the root of all evil?

[TheLimey]

I am not sure what you expect of SLIC2, Wes, but how would you propose to implement the decreasing return idea. Happiness is a 'permanent' effect of permanent buildings. Of course, theoretically, their may be a 'create happiness' SLIC function which can dynamically set up a named effect for that turn, and it may even have the ability to specify a particular building. I doubt it, however.

The way I see many of these ideas being implemented is through having non-buildable buildings and wonders created and destroyed through SLIC as circumstances dictate.

Its going to be a bit of a fudge, but SLIC was immature in CtP1, and CtP2 is going to be the first 'real' SLIC, and they won't have had any feedback until its out.

We'll have to wait until the patch, or even the next version, to let them fill in whats missing.

SLIC is perhaps the most promising feature in any civ game, ever... rules.txt really doesn't even compare.

[WesW]

As far as diminishing returns, I meant grouping Wonders to *keep* this from occuring.
Ex: Having one Ramayana-type of wonder in effect will probably help most of your cities. Builing another Wonder with the same effect will probably benefit only the largest of your cities. See what I mean? If you deny the AIs access to any more Ramayana-types once they complete one, this will force their construction into another category of Wonder, should they be building another happiness wonder.
The aips are set up so that Wonders have individual priorities. The AIs go after the highest-rated one on their list, and I would bet this is not influenced by that they currently have active, so we would need something to force them into another category sometimes.

Btw, from what little I have heard of CtP2's SLIC, it *will* be much simpler, easier to use, and more versatile than the current version.

[Mr Ogre]

One of the simpler things I've added in SLIC2 is the idea of "mod" functions. I only have them hooked up to a handful of systems right now, but they're very easy for me to add, and I will definitely be doing more. SLIC2 has true functions, so what I've done is made some predefined functions that the game will call to modify various calculations. I don't have one for city happiness yet, but I'll add that. When you write your mod, you'll just have to write a function named mod_CityHappiness, something like this:

int_f mod_CityHappiness(city_t city, int_t happiness)
{
if(CityHasWonder(city, WonderDB(WONDER_SLICED_BREAD)) {
// Add 5 happiness to the city that invented sliced bread
return happiness + 5;
}
return happiness;
}

This function would be called during the happiness calculation phase for each and every city (so, yes, it'll slow things down a bit, but not too much). You can see that you'd be able to modify the happiness more dynamically than this with a bit more code.

A problem with these things is that many systems are order dependent, so I just have to choose one spot in the sequence to check for a SLIC function. But I think that'll be a pretty minor complaint It'll generally be after everything in the game runs.

[TheLimey]

This is seriously wonderful news.

SLIC is looking just wonderful.

Are there any more state changing functions like this (like unit stats before combat?)

Also, I know that there are functions to tell distance that are used in the code, but how about exposing them.

Specifically I'd like to see a function that was int Distance_to(loc A, loc B)

You could use this to tell the distance from units or cities to other units or cities, or indeed any spot.

Also int Is_Same_Mass(loc A, loc B)

which would return true if the location A is situated on or in the same land or water mass as location B.

Once again, congratulations on the work so far. You've already sold one copy
[This message has been edited by TheLimey (edited July 08, 2000).]

[JohnT]

I think this is a wonderful idea, but I also would enjoy still playing with "unlimited" Wonders. Imho, this should be an option when starting a new game.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

The Civ concept of "Wonders" has always had a gap in it, IMHO. On the one hand, most of the game wonders have Civ-wide effects. On the other hand, they are (usually) built using one city's resources. In CivII you could speed up construction using Food caravans to shuttle resources to the one city, but on the one hand the wonder was always located specifically in a single city and on the other hand with few exceptions in Civ II and exclusively in CtP one city built the entire Wonder.
This has always seemed wrong to me. A "Wonder of the World" did and should require a massive undertaking to build, and should include resources from all over your Civ. Even "Edison's Lab" required the American system of mechanical education and patent law to make it work, in addition to a single genius.
Therefore, instead of an artificial numerical limit on Wonders, why not a two-part "realistic" limitation:
1. A Wonder would require several orders of magnitude greater outlay of resources than any conceivable city improvement. Building a Wonder, therefore, would require allocating a portion of the entire civ's resources to it (rather the wsay PW % is allocated in CtP now).
Obviously, you could only allocate to one Wonder at a time, and if for some reason that Wonder is not completed, the allocation already spent does not "roll over" to a new Wonder - you start from scratch.
2. Certain wonders are incompatible. You cannot build a peaceful Happiness Wonder and then turn right around and build the Garden of War or some other militaristic Wonder. In other words, the allocation of civ-wide resources sets your civ on a certain course, which will be reinforced by the choices then offered in the Tech Tree. Example: building the LightHouse or some similar seafaring wonder would open up tech relating to sea and ocean faring and trade and close off tech branches concerning land warfare - you have set your course towards a maritime civilization, and you are stuck with it for the near future.

Note that this "direction" does not last the entire game. Wonders go obsolete, and civilizations change their nature over centuries as the resources and requirements change - otherwise the Scandinavians would still be raiding Europe's beaches instead of sunbathing on them!

Finally, a note about "Ages" - I hate 'em! They are artificial distinctions that in most cases merely show the Europocentric view of the author. Medieval and Renaissance, for instance, have no meaning when applied to Asiatic history, and the Renaissance period saw the beginning of the destruction of all the native American civs, not their "rebirth"!
Furthermore, they encourage artificial distinctions in military/economic matters as well. Hence, every Civ game classified the Pikeman as a "medieval" unit, despite the fact that the two-handed steel-tipped 20-foot pike was the weapon of Alexander the Great's pezheteroi and hypaspists - his "phalanx"!
The fact is, as long as all the Civ games remain strictly linear, with little or no provision for civilizations to really "rise and fall" and no massive changes in real government structure when governments change (an ancient Theocratic God King/Emperor has the same degree of control over his armies and cities as a medieval European king - right) then the Ages are largely meaningless. Even in city architecture, the invention of steel load-bearing structures or concrete changes the look of a city (skyscrapers) more than merely entering the "Industrial Age" or "Modern Age" did.
I know, I know - "Ages" make easy artificial distinctions and "measuring points" for how well or how fast your civ is progressing, so they will doubtless stay in the game, and even proliferate: but disussions over how many Ages there "should" be are as artificial as the Ages themselves - have as many as the game needs to be playable, but realize that they are artificial constructs of the popular historian, not realities of history.
And, finally, this may or may not be the Genetic Age we are entering: Genome coding and genetic manipulation may turn out to be merely a footnote to general molecular or atomic manipulaion and engineering or a sub-species of nanotechnology - we just don't know yet, and prognoticators of long-term tech trends have a lousy track record. I know from that firsthand - I've been reading hard science fiction for over 40 years, and virtually all the writers missed, among other things, the miniaturization and ubiquitization of computers, televizing the first moon landing, the complete ceasing of manned extra-orbital flights after those initial moon shots, and the social/ecpnomic consequences of the instroduction of such things as the Pill, home computers, cell phones, and the internet. basically, the results to a civ of new technology not already on the ground in the world today are pure speculation, and we'll probably get it wrong but Whadahey, it's the speculation that's part of the fun...

[TheLimey]

You are wrong about the one city having to 'entirely build' a wonder in CtP.

Any unit in civ can be disbanded within a city to reclaim 1/2 of its production cost towards the current item. It doesn't seem to overbalance the game either.

[meriadoc]

I'm not writing this to advocate one form of Wonder-building over another. I personally have no problems whatsoever with the current one-city per wonder approach. However, Diodorus Sicilus's idea of building Wonders using a civ-wide building system, somewhat like public works in CTP1, is interesting. After all, he's right - Wonders being the massive undertakings that they are perhaps should require more than one city.

I also have an idea for a compromise as well. The wonder is still built like normal - it just gets placed in the build queue for a city. The, if you want more cities to work on that wonder, simply add the wonder to their build-queues as well. The production resources from the second, third, and so-on cities will get automatically added to those from the first city. When the wonder gets completed, it ends up in the first city.

------------------
The Electronic Hobbit

I love playing WITHOUT WONDERS MYSELF!!..as a change of pace
Wonders are great but i agree with a previous post that they give a quick lead in the rankings...(rankings ARE decieving)and i love excluding them..to see all the SO-CALLED EXPERT Civers...S-Q-U-I-R-M..LOL..but i agree it would be better to make it so you had A SINGLE Wonder per Civ and would be crucial to protect that to maintain a certain level of status or rankings..then build another or even improve that wonder..to advance..

[Milkman]

Was looking at old topics and got a idea from this one. I always liked the idea of a wonder that gave the big bonus to Civ that built it. But a small bonus to all other civs after certain amount of time. Take edisons lab for 1. U.S. got a big help by having it. But didnt take long for its inventions to reach other civs and get used.

Say one civ builds a wonder increasing food. It gets a 20% food bonus to all cities. After a few turns, other civs learn how to do this. They use the info but not on huge scale. No wonder, but they get say 5% food bonus to all cities. Allows a Civ to get the big bonus for building a wonder but not leave other civs in the dust.

As far as Wonders giving u chance to discover new tech every turn, I would change that. Make it into a % bonus to overall science.

No idea if this could be put in through editing files or slic though.

[Big Dave]

How's this for a compromise then:

I don't recall any civ having more than one wonder in a given city. Ok, there were 3 pyramids at Giza, but it's all considered one complex. And considering that the Egyptian culture lasted at least 6000 years I don't really have a problem with them having more than one wonder (the Sphinx as well as the Great Pyramid).

So, how about a 1 wonder per city limit? Would this be a decent compromise? I know that when I take a commanding lead in Civ/CTP I tend to build multiple wonders in my 2 or 3 cities with the most production.....

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Big Dave

A bad pun is its own reword.

[wheathin]

Good idea... Maybe limit it to two though. Otherwise, you force players to found dozens of cities just to get the capacity for future wonders. It seems like a game with this restriction couldn't have more than about 20 wonders - you'd run out of decent cities. AT the very least, you'd need some sort of Civ2-Caravan idea, to allow you to transfer production?

[Big Dave]

What's wrong with a "Public Works" type of pool for wonder production? The first city to add a start a particular wonder (i.e. in it's build queue) is the city where that wonder will be built. If for some reason that city is destroyed/captured or that wonder is removed from the build queue of that city, all production to that point is lost. All other cities would either have an "Assist Wonder" item they could add to their own build queues (ala Capitalization), or an empire wide "Wonder Pool" ala the PW pool.

I do think that only one wonder should be allowed to be under construction in any civ at any one time.

Of course all this is probably Blue Sky in it's purest form. We have no idea when the code goes gold, but at some point Mr Ogre & Co will have to stop adding features.

------------------
Big Dave

Failure is not an option
It's bundled with the software

[Grumbold]

I like the PW idea as long as it does not allow you to save up points ahead of time or any other technique to instantly build Wonders. A project of this size should be limited to a minimum 3 turn development cycle to reflect the immensity of the undertaking (and provide the opponents with some warning.) The biggest problem I have with Wonders in the existing games is the way a player civ can rush-buy a wonder out from underneath a computer opponent. Being able to swap production between Wonders without any penalty and part-build the same Wonder in multiple locations to get a head start on Wonders you don't yet know how to build detracts greatly from the atmosphere.

I'd be intrigued by a system that allowed multiple nations to build the same Wonder provided they had begun construction before anyone completed it. For this to work no warning would be given about other civs beginning a wonder or nearing its completion. Use spies! No unpenalised swapping of production from Pyramids to Lighthouse just because that is the one someone else is about to complete. However when you complete your lighthouse ten turns after someone completed theirs you get the benefits.

[MadWoodster]

How about axing most of the swap build ability, ok a proportion of units build can be used to build other units, and possibly a smaller amount for a city improvement could be used for another city improvement and the same goes for wonders, but make it less than it is at the moment say only 30% and not valid for switching between units and improvements and wonders. This would make it more realistic, and may already be possible to an extent by modifiying some of numbers in CTP

[Big Dave]

Yeah, I have to agree that swapping out wonders has to go. I mean, how does hauling hundreds of 20 ton blocks for your Great Pyramid help you build Hanging Gardens if you change your mind? A max of 10% of your production should be transferrable to a new wonder (and if it were 0% it wouldn't break my heart any).

As for requriring spies to find out about wonder construction, no, I don't think so. The other civ is building a WONDER, it's huge, a sizable portion of that civs population is working on it, they know what they're building and they're probably proud of it.

------------------
Big Dave

Failure is not an option
It's bundled with the software

[Grumbold]

While worldwide boasting may be true for many of the larger scale structural Wonders, it does not apply so much for secret wonders like military projects or indeed for Ancient times when you're island nation hasn't even encountered a single foreign nation.

Many of CtP's Wonders are the sort of thing that only become renowned as something exceptional with hindsight. Edison's lab was just another lab when it was first built. Should we be in a panic every time a tribe erects a monolith just in case one of them turns into Stonehenge? For me, rumours that the Celts were up to something 'big' would be enough - provided the concept of multiple wonder owners was in force. I agree that the current game situation where owning certain wonders is vital to world domination accurate information is a must.

The concept of the Greeks bulk-importing stone and erecting a Great Pyramid in five years flat because they heard a rumour that the Egyptians were likely to complete theirs in under ten just jars my sensibilities. Almost every nation in the world have built their own trade-improving architectural monuments at one period or another. Some are now known as Wonders but apart from a little additional tourism haven't been renowned for providing their civilisations with huge advantages. It's almost the reverse - a prospering ancient civilisation felt bound to demonstrate their own importance by wasting massive resources on grandiose architecture.

I play Rogue Spear/Urban Ops a lot online one thing that appeals to me is the "RANDOM MAP".Option in Multiplayer .so that NO one..not even host knows if it is a sniper..rush or assault map..so you cant pick a sniper rifle or machine gun or assault..w/o taking chance it may be wrong..Having said this..I would like to see an option where you could say if there were 30 wonders..make it where there were only maybe 10-12 available...and maybe one civ was given the luck of the draw..say London Exchange..but MAYBE..MAYBE another Civ didnt have that option..but Maybe they Had Internet..instead..and say you wouldnt know what a particular Civ was building until maybe 5 turns before it was built..makes a more interesting spin..for us out there who like "Challenges"..Thats why I enjoy playing No Wonders sometimes...just for a change of pace

[wheathin]

I dunno big dave, I think you need to have the wonder-swapping ability. Otherwise, civs will be crippled just for guessing wrong (more than they already are when you build the last available wonder).

After all, it makes even less sense that after you've got the bottom half a pyramid built, you HAVE to stop just because someone else beat you to it. Egypt's pyramids didn't prevent the Mayans and others from building their own.

[Big Dave]

That makes sense, Wheathin but I don't want to see anyone switching wonders whenever they feel like it.
Respectfully,

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Big Dave

Failure is not an option
It's bundled with the software

[Daniel Frappier]

---------------------------
Otherwise, civs will be crippled just for guessing wrong
---------------------------

It is a 2 sided sword. If it happen to a weak Civ then it gets weaker but if it happen to the #1 Civ then it gives a chance for the other Civs to go back in the game.

For me the predictability of the game (knowing who will win 200 turns before the end) is one major problem and this would be one thing to help solve it.

[Talon438]

Some wonders should be on the terrain in several places like 2 pyramids some where controlled by seperate civs that way people can steal wonders or take over the terrian instead of building them that way it wont affect small civs as much. I repeat this would only work with some wonders.

[chatgr]

Maybe it sould be an option for diplomacy.
Stop buildinding new wonders or else.
Or maybe two civilaizations that have a race
with two wonders each could agree to build only one wonder each.
Or maybe there could be a wonders pact.

[Adm.Naismith]

Well, sorry for jumping in without CTP knowledge (but having played a lot Civ/Civ2 and SMAC).

In my opinion, when two or more cities (same nation) start building the same Wonders, the rules must be that one is also the city where the Wonder will be built, the others simply support (no more by CIV Caravan or SMAC supply units) the building, introducing some % of shields lost for inefficiency and transporting costs.

This will avoid the trick to start same Wonders in two or more cities, just for switching when new Wonder become available by tech research or tech trade.

I'm not sure about the problem of losing the wonder rush: how can I do with an almost finished Pyramid? Considering how often old Wonders become used as deposit of raw materials (stones and metal) for other building, I simply suggest they slowly become consumed adding resources to the next buildings in the same city at half the rate of shields, for the same building turns (you will end losting 50% resources).

Ok, it's really a draft formula, please correct it as you like. The concept is I can reuse something, but not the workhours spent (they are fully lost), and taking the time to recycle some parts.

If you think this only work for stones and the like, please consider how often also ideas and tools can be used in a different project.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Blade Runner]

4. There is no exact price. The wonder price depend on how much money collected together by all civ's. his way every wonder will go to a civ.
5. You never know how much money collected by others, so you need to risk to pay to much or not enough.

Blade

[Blade Runner]

There is always a fight between the fun and the history. I have an idea, which is sound historically stupid, but fun.
1. Every civ has a slider to collect money for wonder.
2. When enough money (resources) collected, the system will provide you randomly a wonder. Sure not that one, waht you would like to get, but usefull.
3. This way u get suprise, you never know when and exactly what you will get from the wonders, and no wonder rush anymore, and the average or weak civ's get a chance too.

Blade

[Adm.Naismith]

Blade Runner (nice nickname, BTW), do you mean I can have Pyramids as surprise into my next Easter Egg?

Well, at least with Santa Klaus I used to write down my wished gifts on a letter!

Back serius, I think we have more than enough surprise with Civ 2 hut discovery, or SMAC pod race.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant