Previewed at GenCon

As I was strolling through the convention hall this weekend during GenCon. There I found a booth featuring CTP2. After I told the people there how I hated CTP in very blunt language, and followed my comments with why I should waste my money on this version when I hated the original. They responded by asking what I didn't like in the original, after 15 minutes passed, one of the guys there told me what is different/better. Better combat, new wonders, no outer space, blah blah blah.
I sat down and proceeded to play test the game. The improvements are noticable. However, since I was badly burned when I bought CTP I guess it left a negative impression on me, thus tainting my review.

For MarkG and everyone here, I did make sure that I told these gentilmen that if they really wanted to get more input on this game before they release it around Thanksgiving (that's what they told me) that they should have their game design people visit this site (their reaction was "Apolyton Who??", but after another 15 minutes of explaining what this site is all about, I think I convinced them that they should come to us for advice).



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"And his word shall carry
death eternal to those who
stand against righteousness."
[This message has been edited by Maud'Dib (edited August 15, 2000).]

New Wonders? In one of the screenshots i certainly saw "Ramayana" as one of the wonders. Anyway, tell us more about CTPII's differences

Maud'Dib,

first of all, thanks for the... advertisement

now, i dont know who you talked with, but be very sure that people from the ctp2 team were and are visiting our site and forums...

In CTP you were able to build colonies in "Outer Space", that was eliminated. Only land and ocean colonies.

3 New Wonders--Penicillin is the only one I can remember, sorry. (Remember, I wasn't a big fan of CTP so I wasn't writing any of the new stuff down).

They said they improved the AI and game interface, especially the combat--no stacks of Phalanxes taking out tanks.

City window from what I saw was more detailed with more options.

New Civ's, but again I don't remember them.

That's is all I can tell, sorry for not being able to give more details. Remember also, I did not go to GenCon for CTP2, I went for the seminars on D&D and trying to get my stuff published, I just stumbled upon the CTP2 booth.

MarkG--there were two guys at the booth, the one I was talking to said he was part of the design team, again I didn't write his name down or can remember it. Sorry.


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"And his word shall carry
death eternal to those who
stand against righteousness."
[This message has been edited by Maud'Dib (edited August 16, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Maud'Dib (edited August 16, 2000).]

3 new wonders? I thought this was supposed to be an entirely new game, if we're going to have the same wonders, some of which I thought were, shall we say, odd, The Philosopher's Stone for example, it's not exactly a wonder

[MidKnight Lament]

I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that he personally noticed 3 new wonders. I'd hope there's plenty more than that too.

- MKL

[Grumbold]

I don't mind whether we get "new" wonders - some of the old Civ ones could make a comeback if they liked. Getting the effects of those wonders right is the important part. Too many of them practically break the game either alone or in combination with others. A single city with the science wonders can often outperform entire civilisations on its own.

Nope, 3 new wonders is what I saw when one the guys was explaning the new version to me before he asked me if I wanted to play it.


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"And his word shall carry
death eternal to those who
stand against righteousness."

[Monkey]

Are you sure there were only 3 new wonders? In that case we already know 2 of them, the first is penicillin like you mentioned and the second is the empire state building(if I remembered correctly reading from somewhere)

[Bkeela]

If I ever came face to face with some of the design crew of CTP, or CTP II, I think I would assault them, and then rob them. That is what Activision did to me.

Bkeela.

[Milkman]

Ok lots of people have ranted about gettin ripped off by CTP. So im going to put my 2 cents in.

1. CTP being cram full of bugs. Show me 1 game that didnt have bugs when released. Unless everyone buys the EXACT same computer there will never be a totally bug free game released. No possible way for a company to run the game on every possible setup out there. But Activision did release patches to fix things they didn't know about. More than I can say for some other companies.

I ran CTP (single player) without patches and did not have any problems.

2. Scenario support. The CTP box did NOT say it supported scenarios. Something i believe should be supported, and was a major problem with CTP. But it never said it was supported. The patches helped some with this. It wasn't something that they promised game would do, but they tried to make it easier anyway.

3. Differences from CivII. Diplomacy wasn't much better than CivII, but was not much worse either. I have played CivII, and the diplomacy was basically the same as CivI. Public works was a change I much welcomed. Hated the fact each city had to support their own units when its a country, not bunch of little cities on their own. Cant wait to see the concept of placing every city worker on their own tile go away in CTP2.

okay, im done blowing off steam. Flame away.

P.S. Yes im going to buy CTP2 as soon as i can get grubby paws on a copy.

[This message has been edited by Milkman (edited August 18, 2000).]

[Harlan]

1. I wouldn't praise Activision for their patch support. The two patches took forever to come out, and then Activision just disappeared after that, without a word. Probably too embarrassed to even say there wouldn't be a third. They just left people hanging.

2. The box may not have said it supported scenarios, but I've had contact with Activision since being a beta tester for CTP1, and I was told repeatedly that full scenario support would be part of that game. I even recall being given a specific date by John P. a few weeks before the game came out- two weeks after the release the first patch would fix everything related to scenarios and maps. Activision made scenarios posted on the official website would quickly follow. We all know how well those promises held up.

3. Diplomacy would have been better than Civ2 if it was properly implemented, but it wasn't, so all the game reviews pointed at diplomacy as being particularly badly implemented, and Activision folks have more or less admitted it sucked. For all I can remember, you're the first person to argue otherwise.

Given all that, that doesn't necessarily say much about CTP2. Obviously the Activision team made a decision that CTP1 was too broken, and decided to start with a clean slate and make CTP2 instead of more patches and addons for CTP1. That left a lot of fans feeling burned, including me, but it would be hardly the first time for me to see games incomplete and poorly supported. The question is, come Christmas, will CTP2 be a better game than CTP1 plus more patches and an add on CD a la Civ2's Fantastic Worlds would have been? I think the answer will be yes, and the price of CTP2 will probably be the same (or close) as the add on pack would have been anyways, judging how those things are priced these days.

In the short term, that decision to bag CTP1 was pretty frustrating, but in the long term hopefully we'll have a better game that holds up for years to come. Plus, it seems Activision has had a change of heart in terms of talking to and listening to the fans, and implementing their suggestions.

And as an aside, there clearly will be more than three wonders, and doesn't anybody recall the feats of wonder concept mentioned in one of the reviews?

[This message has been edited by Harlan (edited August 18, 2000).]

[Slax]

I'd also like to add that most reviews gave CTP I poor or average reviews. So you can't say you expected a perfect product, if you did the proper reading. And you can't complain if a FAN site emphasizes the positives.

[Milkman]

Harlan u are correct in my error on scenarios. I have gone back and looked at the game box, and press releases from before the game came out. There was in fact a implied, and sometimes explicit suggestion that scenarios would be fully supported. Thank u for correcting this.

[Big Dave]

quote: Originally posted by Slax on 08-18-2000 10:07 PM I'd also like to add that most reviews gave CTP I poor or average reviews. So you can't say you expected a perfect product, if you did the proper reading. And you can't complain if a FAN site emphasizes the positives.

I don't pay attention to movie or game reviews. Most reviewers don't know what I'm looking for in a game. I've thoroughly enjoyed many games dissed by reviews.

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Big Dave

Failure is not an option
It's bundled with the software

quote: Originally posted by Slax on 08-18-2000 10:07 PM And you can't complain if a FAN site emphasizes the positives.

we didnt emphasize anything. we gave our opinion
plus, where did you read about all these bad reviews? this very site in a lot of cases, no?

[Big Dave]

quote: Originally posted by Harlan on 08-18-2000 09:04 PM Given all that, that doesn't necessarily say much about CTP2. Obviously the Activision team made a decision that CTP1 was too broken, and decided to start with a clean slate and make CTP2 instead of more patches and addons for CTP1. That left a lot of fans feeling burned, including me, but it would be hardly the first time for me to see games incomplete and poorly supported. The question is, come Christmas, will CTP2 be a better game than CTP1 plus more patches and an add on CD a la Civ2's Fantastic Worlds would have been? I think the answer will be yes, and the price of CTP2 will probably be the same (or close) as the add on pack would have been anyways, judging how those things are priced these days.

Unfortunatly regular Civ add-ons are priced just like a full game. So I guess what you're saying is that CTP2 is going to priced like a full game and the price for the should-have-been add-on is not something to get mad about.

Well, yes and no. At least with an add-on the space layer would still have been there. This was one of the very cool features in CTP that I'm sorry is not going to be there in CTP2. Granted that space cities were bland and boring. I rarely built them other than the free one I got for the Space Needle (or whatever that wonder was called). But for transport the space layer rocked! What a great way to recon the entire planet! I usually play on large maps and it can be a real pain hunting down a renegade civ that is keeping me from winning the game (Alien what? Bloodlust for me, thankyou very much).

So please pardon me if I'm somewhat disgruntled by this add-on that fixes what was broken in the game and takes away a feature I very much enjoyed.

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Big Dave

If a pig looses it's voice is it disgruntled?

quote: Originally posted by Big Dave on 08-19-2000 08:00 AM So please pardon me if I'm somewhat disgruntled by this add-on that fixes what was broken in the game and takes away a feature I very much enjoyed.

for the one feature that is gone, there are many more that are added. it doesnt seem that ctp2 is just about fixes....

[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited August 19, 2000).]

[Slax]

I take issue with people who complain that Activision lied to them or ripped them off, or that 'zeolets' here at this site drove them to buy the game.

You're crazy to just by a product based on the word of the company without reading reviews or forums. I don't have time to look for all the old reviews of it, but Gamespot gave it a 6.7/10 and Gamecentre 6/10. The problems they noticed, some subjective, others not, were there in black and white.

I read the reviews and bought the product, and loved it. I feel I got my money's worth.

Monkey, thanks for jogging my memory. Empire State Building is one also.

Also, I remember something that the guy I was talking to said something that they improved somethings in the diplomacy screen. I'd probably would have to re-install CTP and actually play it to jogg those memories.


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"And his word shall carry
death eternal to those who
stand against righteousness."

Has there been any talk of a sort of state/province system? none of the other civs had anything like it, but wouldnt it be nice to have production goals of many cities taken care of at a sort of "state-goal" selection screen? (sorry in advance if anybody has thought/mentioned this before and I failed to give credit!)

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"And it was destined that he should fall before the mighty hoof of our Lord and King of Spain."

[MidKnight Lament]

I imagine they would have mentioned it by now, as it would be a significant change. You might have to wait for Civ 3 for that one.

- MKL

[Big Dave]

I think Clash of Civilizations has a State/Province system. But it will be a very different game. I'm looking forward to it.

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Big Dave

If a pig looses it's voice is it disgruntled?

The memories are coming back.

The city radius is now 3 squares instead of 2.
Plus you have borders like in AC.

The more I keep talking about it, the more it seems I'm able to remember.

I wonder what else I might have forgotten???


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"And his word shall carry
death eternal to those who
stand against righteousness."

[Big Dave]

Actually the city radius is variable, it depends on the pop of the city.

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Big Dave

If a pig looses it's voice is it disgruntled?

[WesW]

Dave, you're killing me with these sigs.

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The Medieval Mod 4.0- The Age of Wonders. The latest in the Medieval Pack series, soon to be available at my homepage. Check there periodically for updates and new additions.

[Big Dave]

Thanks Wes! My other Internet handle is Atilla the Pun.

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Big Dave

If a pig looses it's voice is it disgruntled?