These screenshots are not impressing me. - Page 2

Big Dave · August 3, 2000, 21:10

quote:

I believe the point is that if there is little visual change evident in the screen shots provided, it implys that the game as a whole is nothing more than a glorified patch. And however many "New" features might have been added, a lot of CTP1's bad features will be carried over into CTP2.

Some time (in another thread) I'd be very interested in knowing what chain of reasoning led to most of that, Kaiser. I've seen Ford Mustangs with the same body style and color but one had a 4 cylinder and the other had an 8 cylinder engine. Tell me because they look the same they'll function the same!

As for CTP2 being a patch, search on my name for the past 5 months for my opinion on that. It's not very flattering to Activision.....

Darth, much of the point of that thread was how to make it so that a nuclear war is NOT the end of the game.

How about the increase in diplomatic options? This was universally acknowledged as one of the major weak points in CTP, the screenshots we've seen show that at least some effort has been spent to try and correct this.

Of course if you're mind is already made up little things like facts won't change it.

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Big Dave

A bad pun is its own reword.
[This message has been edited by Big Dave (edited August 03, 2000).]

Big Dave · August 3, 2000, 22:59

quote:

Originally posted by DarthVeda on 08-03-2000 07:48 PM
Why do you think they call it M.A.D. anyway? You use the feature and you are toast. I wouldn't go and build your impression of the game around a game-ending feature.

My point here is also that Activision is listening to us and making changes we, the players, suggest. This is not the first time they've done this, either.

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Big Dave

A bad pun is its own reword.

DarthVeda · August 4, 2000, 00:10

At least when I paid for the ToT "patch" to Civ2, it came with new graphics!

Big Dave · August 4, 2000, 00:27

Darth,
Have you looked a the Mutually Assured Destruction thread? What do you think about it?

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Big Dave

A bad pun is its own reword.

DarthVeda · August 4, 2000, 02:03

So what CTP2 so far is, according to you guys, is a fix for all the glaring errors in CTP (minus the cruddy interface) and the addition of M.A.D., a game-over feature, and a few new graphics.

August 4, 2000, 04:27

i dont get it darth....
a sequel is supposed to not to repeat the errors of the first, and to improve where it was good
what exactly is wrong here?

Big Dave · August 4, 2000, 09:47

quote:

Originally posted by DarthVeda on 08-04-2000 02:03 AM
So what CTP2 so far is, according to you guys, is a fix for all the glaring errors in CTP (minus the cruddy interface) and the addition of M.A.D., a game-over feature, and a few new graphics.

Darth, are you even bothering to read my posts? I ask you ligit questions and you just go off flaming on another tangent, ignoring my post. I've been trying to be polite but I'm about to brand you a troll and start ignoring you.

So, for the third time, what about new features like improved diplomacy, national borders, and expanding city radii? Have you used your eyes or only your "mouth"?

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Big Dave

A bad pun is its own reword.

BigJ · August 4, 2000, 11:06

DarthVeda,
First of all, the concept 'MAD' basically means that if you launch your nukes, I launch mine. This is NOT a game ending concept. Even in real life it is not except in certain circumstances. All you are thinking about is nuclear war between the U.S. and Russia, which, IF it resulted in a full nuclear exchange, could result in a large part of humanity dying. But even this would probably not result in humanity's extinction. Meteors have hit this planet since life has existed that have made anything we could do totally puny in comparison. I have even read reports that nuclear effects, unless large numbers were used, could be shorter lived than chemical/biological weapons effects, which in certain cases could last for many, many years. In any case, the MAD concept, applied to nations such as India/Pakistan, wouldn't even come close to ending civilization. The MAD concept also comes into play when it is not implemented, as it redefines how the involved nations interact militarily and diplomatically. Why would someone say that such an important concept historically should not be implemented if it can be?
As far as CTP bashing goes, I got upset many times at all the bugs and so on in the early days, as I got CTP when it first came out. But what I noticed was that, thought CTP was released incomplete and buggy, it was nonetheless a quite different game than Civ2. It seems as though you complain about CTP as much because you simply do not like it as because of the flaws. If you do not like the new concepts then say so, that you do not like this or that, perhaps the unconventional warfare units or something, rather than say that they are stupid. As far as the graphics go, I do say that some of them are too 'cartoonish', but maybe some people (not me really) may prefer them that way, so no need to be insulting to the game, just state your likes/dislikes.
Just bashing something does as much good as locking up a criminal for a few years without even trying to convey to them the errors in their behavior. When they get out they will probably go back to the same behavior. Constructive criticism is the way to go, state what is wrong, why, and perhaps what could be done to make it better.

BigJ

DarthVeda · August 4, 2000, 11:43

I put a lot of thought into this review a while back, which explains my feelings about a great deal of call-to-power's features:

One Here at Apolyton

I did say this though:

quote:

If the mistakes of Call to Power can be heeded, and all of the goodies included with the game picked up for the upcoming Civilization III, and eventually Call to Power 2, the 4X genre should witness a new rebirth like has not been seen since the good ol' days of Civ II.

They may have fixed Call to Power's mistakes, but it looks as if they are making new ones (ie copying the art from the original--I have never seen a sequel do this).

Art doesn't make the game but it gives me the impression that Activision is putting in a less than superior effort on this game. It's the only solid thing I have to go on, and it looks pretty shaky.

I might say that these were just temporary graphics, but I know that's not true because CtP2 is going to escape sometime before Christmas (and marketing will stick that down their throats--done or not). That my friends, is too soon for these graphics to be a temp.

Big Dave: Yes I know about expanding city radii, national borders, and improved diplomacy. Now I will tell you the only one that I haven't heard of is expanding city radii. The other two were done first in Master of Orion II (1997--diplomacy), and SMAC (1998--borders). So a game that is two years late on two of the four features that you guys are marking as it's flagship features...

...don't look at me funny if I'm not getting extatic.

My Thoughts on MAD -- Again

Ok, let's look at M.A.D. Say you have the same amount of nukes your oponent does. Let's say around 4-5. Not the end of the world per se. Your 4-5 largest cities will dissapear from the map though....

Now multiply the polution effect x2 on those cities... get where I'm going so far?

Now say you both have a large number of nukes (10 or more). You've gotten into a war you can't hope to win because the pollution alone is going to destroy you. Plus your 10 major production centers are toast. This is why it's called M.A.D. It's a frickin deadlock you can't hope to win, because you aren't willing to sacrafice your poor cities.

Ahh. You say you have SDI? Well if activision programs this right, the other civ should act with incredible hostility if you try to break M.A.D.

See, M.A.D. alone is a crap feature. If they flesh it out with diplomacy, that would be excellent. With diplomacy you could have the other civ get angry at you for building SDI (or even declare war), sign treaties to dismantle nukes, and so on. M.A.D. alone is an awful feature.

[This message has been edited by DarthVeda (edited August 04, 2000).]

WesW · August 4, 2000, 13:52

Darth, from what I have seen, and I *have* seen some things, all of the graphics in CtP2 are going to be different from CtP1. Whether they all are an improvement or not may be open to debate, but things *will* be different.
As far as gameplay, trade is going to be different, there are going to be new tile improvements and city improvements, and many units will be different.

We have already seen some of the changes to diplomacy and so-forth. Special unit use should be improved.
I think some of the biggest improvements will be "under the surface" stuff like the SLIC2 and AI routines.
The SLIC thing in particular may be the biggest improvement/innovation to the genre in years.

I will be very surprised if the people in charge of this sequel make the mistake of those of the original in ignoring the input of game-testers.
Btw, I love Big Dave's statement that CtP1 escaped rather than being released. I also believe that this was not the decision of the game-makers.

Everything depends on follow-through, but CtP2 has the *potential* of setting the standard for this genre so far ahead of anything currently out that it won't be close in most people's minds. The next few months will tell if this comes about.

DarthVeda · August 4, 2000, 15:00

quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold on 08-04-2000 12:52 PM
Graphics are important. They succeed if you can see the action clearly and are visually pleasing. In this respect there was definite improvement from civ1-civ2-ctp. SMAC is a personal choice: I disliked its approach. ToT was a no contest loser. Every unit and terrain type was harder to distinguish than in civ2. For added amusement some distinctly different terrain types in the space set were visually identical.

If Apolyton can't find a sensible way to improve the generally very good graphics from ctp then I sincerely hope that they leave them well alone. ToT just proves how all the resources spent rebuilding the entire graphics set can be an appalling mistake. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!

Ah yes, but Test of Time wasn't being hawked as a sequel. Only an add-on (admitedly a very expensive add-on).

I believe CtP2 may have a glimmer of potential, but I'm on a strictly "show me" basis.

August 4, 2000, 15:24

quote:

Originally posted by DarthVeda on 08-04-2000 03:00 PM
Ah yes, but Test of Time wasn't being hawked as a sequel. Only an add-on (admitedly a very expensive add-on).

so, if ctp2 was called an "addon" and was priced as a "sequel"(like ToT), you would be ok with it?

Grumbold · August 4, 2000, 15:32

Would you like to suggest what it is they could improve apart from the occasional unit? Sounds like you want to see visual differences for no better reason than to feel you got your money's worth. Forget the thousands of hours of effort spent improving the actual gameplay, if the grass and trees are the same shade of green they didn't do a good job??

DarthVeda · August 4, 2000, 16:50

quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold on 08-04-2000 03:32 PM
Would you like to suggest what it is they could improve apart from the occasional unit? Sounds like you want to see visual differences for no better reason than to feel you got your money's worth. Forget the thousands of hours of effort spent improving the actual gameplay, if the grass and trees are the same shade of green they didn't do a good job??

I'm just saying don't directly copy from one game to another. I wouldn't want terrain from SMAC showing up in Civ3...

I was thinking that Activision would want to shy away from making this title look like it's predecessor more than associating it to that title.

Markos: Yes, then I wouldn't have to even consider buying it

Grumbold · August 5, 2000, 00:52

Graphics are important. They succeed if you can see the action clearly and are visually pleasing. In this respect there was definite improvement from civ1-civ2-ctp. SMAC is a personal choice: I disliked its approach. ToT was a no contest loser. Every unit and terrain type was harder to distinguish than in civ2. For added amusement some distinctly different terrain types in the space set were visually identical.

If Apolyton can't find a sensible way to improve the generally very good graphics from ctp then I sincerely hope that they leave them well alone. ToT just proves how all the resources spent rebuilding the entire graphics set can be an appalling mistake. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!

Nordicus · August 5, 2000, 03:42

If you are here to piss and moan, great, have a good ol' time, Darth. Jolly good and say hi to Alexander's Arse for me....

If you are here to actually gain some vaild insight into *precisely* how CtP will be different from CtPII, perhaps you ought to pay attention to those who have "more-than-common" knowledge relating to the work in progress called Call to Power II--like Markos, Wes--even myself. For these two people have unique views into the developement and have stated very good points regarding the game.
If you are caught up in looks, play AoK; if you are so enamored with the "duh good ol' days," go play the orginal Civ; what are you even doing here? There does not seem to be any logic concerning what you consider to be arguments...so, what exactly is your problem?
If you have a beef against Activision, email them and b-itch. If you have a beef against CtP, maybe find old some Horsie thread trashing the game in the CtP section. Sorry, but I'm simply trying to ascertain what you're doing here in the CtPII section...looking for an argument or for information or clarification or reassurance or justification for buying the game when it comes out? Just that picking at the graphics seems shallow and like an underlying motive....

[PostScript: Yes, I concur: the TV-head bozo was a stupid graphic--the sprite of which can be changed in less than ten minutes (I had one in mind myself)...not that it is anyone else's responsibility, except for those who do not like the graphic; if you don't like it, change it, or ask someone for adivice regrarding how.]

[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited August 05, 2000).]

DarthVeda · August 5, 2000, 07:43

No, I'm just here to say that I don't want this game to turn into a true sequel of call-to-power 1, if you understand what I mean...

On with my comparrison...

One thing I really hated about the first was that I couldn't cancel out a qued move without making one in another direction.

Maybe they actually fixed this?!

DarthVeda · August 5, 2000, 07:47

No, I'm just here to say that I don't want this game to turn into a true sequel of call-to-power 1, if you understand what I mean...

On with my comparrison...

One thing I really hated about the first was that I couldn't cancel out a qued move without making one in another direction.

Maybe they actually fixed this?!

What I really hated most was the developer's mentality that anything they leave broke will be fixed by the users. Hopefully they don't repeat this.

The Kaiser · August 5, 2000, 14:33

Well looks like Nordicus has put himself in the CTP2:-Defend at all cost's cause were Holyier than thou fan club. A movement with many members in this thread, who feel the need to flame anyone who doesn't toe the party line.

This is a thread about how the look of the screenshot's so far don't give us confidence that a lot has fundamentally changed about the game.

If anyone doesn't like this topic, I suggest they are the ones to leave. Yes, go back to your latest Activision Club Newsletter thread!

[This message has been edited by The Kaiser (edited August 05, 2000).]

August 5, 2000, 16:37

it looks like you're the one doing the flaming Kaiser....

i fail to understand how you wait from a still screenshot to find out if a lot have changed in the game, ignoring all the info that has been publicized so far

anyway, i'm glad to announce that starting Monday its "CTP2 Week" for Apolyton. we'll be concetrating all the info floating on the previews, the forums and the news archives, as well as show some new game art

DarthVeda · August 5, 2000, 17:32

I'm watching intently then...

The Kaiser · August 5, 2000, 18:57

Yes we shall all watch intently, for this "new game art".

I gather by this statement that Activision will be coming out of their bunker they seemed to have been in over the past month.

Still it must be time consuming generating that intro video sequence that we'll watch once and then click past every other time. It's such a shame all that artistry will go to waste. If only they could find some other area in which to direct their artistic skills. Hmmm, now let me see...
[This message has been edited by The Kaiser (edited August 05, 2000).]

MidKnight Lament · August 5, 2000, 20:09

Fantastic. New info on Apolyton has been very scarce over the last week.

- MKL

August 5, 2000, 20:25

quote:

Originally posted by The Kaiser on 08-05-2000 06:57 PM
Still it must be time consuming generating that intro video sequence that we'll watch once and then click past every other time. It's such a shame all that artistry will go to waste. If only they could find some other area in which to direct their artistic skills. Hmmm, now let me see...

but be very carefull! if they use a 3d-object from that intro movie into another movie(for a wonder for example), we'll exile them to burn in (civ) hell!!

Big Dave · August 6, 2000, 00:13

quote:

Originally posted by DarthVeda on 08-05-2000 07:47 AM
No, I'm just here to say that I don't want this game to turn into a true sequel of call-to-power 1, if you understand what I mean...

On with my comparrison...

One thing I really hated about the first was that I couldn't cancel out a qued move without making one in another direction.

Maybe they actually fixed this?!

Now we're getting somewhere! Thank you for airing a valid complaint, something MrOgre & Co. might be able to do something about!!!

quote:

Originally posted by DarthVeda on 08-05-2000 07:47 AM
What I really hated most was the developer's mentality that anything they leave broke will be fixed by the users. Hopefully they don't repeat this.

If Activision pulls this stunt again I'll probably buy the game just so I can start a class action lawsuit for fraud against them.

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Big Dave

A bad pun is its own reword.
[This message has been edited by Big Dave (edited August 05, 2000).]

Big Dave · August 6, 2000, 01:04

quote:

Originally posted by The Kaiser on 08-05-2000 02:33 PM
Well looks like Nordicus has put himself in the CTP2:-Defend at all cost's cause were Holyier than thou fan club. A movement with many members in this thread, who feel the need to flame anyone who doesn't toe the party line.

This is a thread about how the look of the screenshot's so far don't give us confidence that a lot has fundamentally changed about the game.

If anyone doesn't like this topic, I suggest they are the ones to leave. Yes, go back to your latest Activision Club Newsletter thread!

[This message has been edited by The Kaiser (edited August 05, 2000).]

Oh, I see, and anyone who doesn't agree with you that CTP2 stinks is automatically a "defender" of CTP2? You'd better ask your momma to read some of these posts to you again, child.

I'm getting very tired of attempting to reason with imbiciles........

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Big Dave

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Big Dave · August 6, 2000, 01:56

quote:

Originally posted by DarthVeda on 08-05-2000 05:32 PM
I'm watching intently then...

Darth, don't just watch, post! What else don't you like about the game? Let them know before the code is frozen for release! They can't fix it if they don't know it's broken.

The Kaiser · August 6, 2000, 07:33

You guys have got me all wrong.

Ok my next to last post virtually ended up being a flame about flaming. But what I was trying to say was how I don't like how people begin their posts with a personal attack, and then end with a "if you've got nothing constructive to say" cliche.

I'm not anti CTP. I think CTP introduced a lot of interesting new idea's into the CIV genre. Competition is good in any part of life, and we know CIV3 is going to take a few leaves out of CTP's book.

But we all have to face it, that taken as a whole CTP was not a great game. It was Ok at best. And what is irratating at times is some peoples intolerance of constructive criticism, however trivial some of the topic's may appear.

August 6, 2000, 09:01

quote:

Originally posted by The Kaiser on 08-06-2000 07:33 AM
But we all have to face it, that taken as a whole CTP was not a great game. It was Ok at best. And what is irratating at times is some peoples intolerance of constructive criticism, however trivial some of the topic's may appear.

what is also irritating(to me) is when i read a phrase like "we all have to face it". post your opinion but please dont tell me what my opinion should be...

The Kaiser · August 6, 2000, 16:03

There I was trying to give a honest inoffensive post and someone takes it the wrong way again.

I give up!