Why not imprison those nerving unconventional units?

[Atahualpa]

I mean attacking is considered an act of war, but when you expel them they keep coming back over and over.
So why is there no option to catch them and put them into one of your prisons (IIRC there is a prison improvement in CtP2). This would not be an act of war but would cause tension between the two players.
Your opponent can then negotiate with you for the release of the unit. And he should do this cause every turn he is one of my prisons there is a slim chance for the player who caught the unconventional unit to get to know something about his opponent.
But if thats to "overloaded" I think imprisoning would just do fine if lets say the unit gets automatically set free after around 10 turns (depends on the government). This way you make sure the unit doesnt cause harm, but on the other side you may risk a war with your opponent.

What do you think?
Ata

[Slingshot]

Excellent idea!

The worst part about unconventional units is the fact that the AI keeps sending them at you. After a while, it gets really annoying and I start wondering about playing Civ II again.

Even when you have the proper defenses, unconventional units can be a pain. Instead of getting to think about strategies and empire building, you have to activate a military unit and tell it to boot the enemy out. This can be the case in many cities each turn, and I think it makes CTP a drudgery.

An unconventional unit should get its chance to wreak havoc, and if things go poorly then it should be taken out for a while. That way we're not overrun with them.

[WesW]

This would be a great addition to the game!

[Nemo]

I agree atahualpa, that would a pretty sweet thing to include. and to allow an advance or something might not be too much of an overkill...most of teh code is already there for the "internet" and "edison labs" wonder, so it could just be a slight varience of that, but maybe to include a map as a possiblility in adition to obtaining an advacne. say like a 5% chance to get an advance and 15% chancge to obtain a map.

[Atahualpa]

Thanks for the feedback!

5% equals every 20 Turns. Hmm yeah thats okay.
15% equals every 6 to 7 Turns. Yeah thats okay too!

So to write the idea clearer:

When there is an unconventional unit sighted in your territory you have to send a military unit out and catch it. It is then taken to the nearest city that has the prison improvement. If none of your cities has got a prison you cant catch them. OPTION A:Every prison can only hold one unit. OPTION B:Every prison can hold up to as many units as you catch but chances to get a tech are not cumulative. 5 units in the same prison gives you still the chance of 5% to get a Tech. OPTION C:Every prison can hold as many units as you catch and chances are cumulative. So if you have 5 units in a prison the chance to get a tech is: 25%. (one thing that needs to be discussed: Do you need different prisons for different nationalities?). The chances so far are: 5% to get a Tech from your opponent every turn you keep him in the prison and 15% to get the opponents map. There could be other chances on what to see. For example a 10% chance to get info on one of his cities..... .
Your opponent can make an offer to pay gold or give you whatever and in exchange you release the unit. The unit is then transported to the nearest city (nearest from the city with the prison where the unit was held).
You holding these units causes tension but on the other side he knew what he was doing when he sent them. Nevertheless the more units you have and the more time you keep them the more angry your opponent will be.

Please tell me which option you would prefer or if you dont like them tell us others.

ATa

[Big Dave]

I like Option A. It seems the most balanced. I might modify it to be 2 or 3 units per prison, but no more than that. This way you can't just build one prison in one city and be semi-immune to all unconventional warfare units(UWU's). The UWU's would still be useful, but the defending civ would have options other than starting a war over it.

I like it, Ata, good ideas!!!

------------------
Big Dave

If you don't stand for anything
you'll fall for everything.

[Atahualpa]

Hey great even BD likes this idea (no offense)

Actually BD this would be OPTION D:Every prison can hold a limited number of units (around 3), chances are not cumulative????? (I guess so).

Btw, I have left out saying that for game balance, you can only get one thing out of an UWU (to use BD's term). So if he told you the map already then the UWU wont tell you anything else. Else I think it would be quite unbalanced.
I still don't know if after the UWU told you some information he should be set free automatically or not. Oh needless to say that you can of course set anybody free at any time. This would increase your opponents attitude to you (but not that much, depends on wether you already got information from the UWU or not).

Maybe this idea can be extended that way that UWU-class-related-info gets higher chances. For example if you catch a spy then the chance to get a tech would be 9% instead of 5%. When you catch a Diplo it would be 7% and when you catch a Cyber-Ninja it would be 11%.
Or it would be about 8% for Diplo/Spy/Cyber-Ninja. If you catch a slaver you would get bonus chances to city-info, if you catch a lawyer you would get bonus chances to get general info of your opponent...
But well maybe this extension is too much. I dont know.

Another extension would be a slim chance to get false-information but I think this would get to complicated. I just wanted to mention it.

ATa

[Big Dave]

Well Ata, I'm kinda pick about ideas, I only like the good ones!

quote: Actually BD this would be OPTION D:Every prison can hold a limited number of units (around 3), chances are not cumulative

I think the chances should be cumulative. If someone is being a real pain with UWU's then they should be taking some risk that is more than a mere inconvenience. Maybe make the chance per unit smaller, but definatly make it cumulative. But only one piece of info per unit, then the unit is released to the nearest city of it's own nation. I would also like to see a "prisoner exchange" option on the diplomatic menu.

Oh, and I see no reason not to mix nationalities in a single prision.

And just as an added edge to this already 2 edged sword, the percentage of effectiveness at your prisons at reducing crime should go down as you fill the prison with foreign nationals. Or just flat out make a new type of prison just for this purpose.

Having said all that, I have no idea when the code for CTP2 goes gold. Mr. Ogre, St. Swithin, is there a chance that this will make it into CTP2, or will this be a customer add-on. Or perhaps make it into the 1st patch? I really feel that this would very nicely play balance unconventional warfare.

------------------
Big Dave

If you don't stand for something
you'll fall for anything.

[PMLF]

I hope that Activision include this Great Idea on CtP2 .

[Nemo]

the info exctration % should be x% per unit, but u only have x# of turns to get it(say like, 10 turns - after that the unit is just a POW for politcal purposes to tick off your apponent) this would represent a) persons unwilliness to cooperate as time goes on, b) forgtfulness c) the information becomes more meaningless as time progresses. (e.g. a map would definately change over time, so would you get an uptodate map or a map like it was when the unit was captured...that one would be a mess to program - too much detail)
but... to keep it k.i.s.s and balanced, i think definately only in town with prison, percentage should not vary on unit, (because a spy may know more, but is better trained than a diplomat, so his chance of telling anything would be less - thus equalling out the balance of information leakage %). no more than 3 units to a prison (personally i think 1 per prison) becasue think of the "great escape" - when all prisioners are to gether they work together to escape.
also speaking of escape...how to get rid of them:
1)in diplomat screen can offer as gift to home country
2)can offer as trade to home city (e.g. i will give you your spy if you give me 1000 gold)
3)after x# of turns unit escapes...
how it escapes:
the unit is placed randomly on a square just outside of the city radius. therefore you can either recapture it, or kill it (punishment for escape = death! )... IF you can find it. but, it does have a chance to run (or attempt to bother you again)

this idea would be realy cool, but i am afraid it may be too late to include it...however, it would be mostly rehashed code at this point (if its kept simple enough)

[Atahualpa]

However then I feel the need to select in which prison I want the UWU to go to.

There could be a prisonermanagment screen where you can see all the UWUs you have captured, who long they have been in prison and in which prison and of course their nationality.

BD: I just came across a problem with cumulative percentages. When there are 3 UWU's in one prison then the chance would be (now) 15% to get a tech. Now when you get a tech what happens? Do all the 3 UWU's get set free or only one and there is a 10% chance to get a tech from the other two.
Personally I would go with releasing all 3.
Now there is another problem. 2 red UWU's and 1 green UWU dont cumulate in chances. Since there is a 5% chance to get a tech from the green and a 10% to get a tech from the red. If it could be made this way there is no problem of mixing UWU's of different nationalities.

And I find it too. After you got something out of them there is no need to keep those UWU's and they are sent back.

In addition to this idea I would only make a 50% (or less) chance of capturing an UWU. Else unconventional warfare is more of a risk than an addition. This has to be tested I think.


And yes I agree that would be a real fine addition to the game!
ATa

[Atahualpa]

I dont know if escape is a good idea. Maybe there should be a 5% chance for the unit to escape. This would make it even harder to get a Tech!
I dont like the idea that after a set number of turns a unit escapes automatically.

Nemo: There is yet another problem. After an UWU has given you info why would the other nation want him back? I mean they dont pay support costs while he is imprisoned. So? They could easily build a new one and that maybe would be cheaper than buying out the old one.
Of course this changes if the old one is a veteran (can UWU's become veteran?).

I dont know if its already too late, but it would definatley be a good addition.
But you are true I dont give it too much chance to appear in the game.

Ata

[XMon]

Superb idea Atahualpa! Of course, I really like it at least partly because I was thinking along the same lines myself.

I'm fairly new to this site and I kind of missed the boat on giving ideas for the new CTP...so I've been thinking (daydreaming) about what I plan to try and mod when CTP2 comes out and what I wish I could mod, but in reality will be too complex for the likes of me (and most of you too).

My interests are in the modern post-Manhattan Project era and The Cold War. Unconventional warfare (not the CTP definition of UW, but the real one) and espionage especially. I think war is conducted too easily in CTP. I usually find by the time I start getting "futuristic" units like Storm Marines etc, I can pretty much just look forward to war, war, war. One thing I want to look at is at least making war a little more complex than just building tons of tanks and bombers. Without getting too long winded, I've been thinking of ways of making tanks and related units less desirable (not undesirable, just something less than the strongest and fastest unit available) in relation to other land units. Number one, I think jungle should be just as formidable a terrain as mountain. No wheeled units allowed in jungle without a road! Tanks do not play a major role in jungle warfare. They cannot move through jungle unless roads are built for them. I really like the idea of paratroopers pillaging a jungle road to bottleneck the flow of armored vehicles on their way to defend against my attacking land units. Also, I'd reduce the movement points of motorized units and/or increase the movement points of foot troops. Sure a tank can move faster than a man on foot but in real life, if an infantry brigade has to move 200 miles to a new position, they don't walk...they ride. AND special forces units are way faster than tanks. British SAS and US Special Forces have Fast Attack Vehicles like the Chenowth that are far faster than tanks. This alone I think would make the game more interesting. Just making jungle impenetrable for wheeled units and slowing down those same units (tanks shouldn't be able to cross a country in one move) will increase the value of the foot troops and make for more military strategy. For you guys who hate phalanxes winning battles with machine gunners etc, I was just recently reading about how the British in Malaya in the late 1940s were using trackers from the Iban tribe in Borneo. These guys were head-hunters who had success against Japanese troops during WWII by just using blowpipes and poison darts in the jungles of Borneo!

Relatively easy stuff would be new units. I know others will disagree with me, and that's fine, but I want LOTS of unconventional MILITARY units, not lawyers and corporations. That stuff can be done with screens, not units. If you want to take legal action against a city or create a franchise, use something like the Trade screen. You don't think Dave Thomas has to actually take a plane ride to Hanoi if they open up a new Wendy's there do you? I want stealth land units that can kill, sabotage, spy into stacked units, etc and not get caught. I want Special Forces, terrorists, counterterrorists, guerillas, death squads, Recon units, leader units (including El Presidente), snipers...you get the idea. If possible with CTP2, I'd like to make a mod adjustment so that some units can attack and the defender does not know the country of origin of the attacker. Like if they appear to the defending AI as barbarians or something. These units would have to be really expensive to keep things from getting crazy but I think it would make the game much more interesting and be more reflective of war of the past 40 years. What would be really cool would be if a "black" unit (meaning "black ops" or deniable operations - if you're caught, your government will deny they know you) had a risk percentage of the defender finding out the sponsoring civ. The better the unit, the lower the risk. A cheaper terrorist unit might have a higher level of risk of originating civ discovery than an expensive counterterrorist unit. Modern war has often been war-by-proxy, meaning that the big powers clash indirectly by using guerillas and allied armies. Nicaragua is a good example with the Soviets and the Americans taking turns nurturing and funding guerillas and terrorists (called Death Squads if "we're" supporting them) rather than direct confrontation. I would like to be able to control units which the defender sees as barbarians with a barbarian flag (guerillas, terrorists, death squads) but in actuality, a civ is controlling them. It would also be cool if you could demand of a weaker ally that they give you units temporarily for you to use while the units keep their original civ's flag. Like the Soviets using Cuban troops in Angola. Of course, if you're the weaker ally then maybe the foreign ally AI would request some of your troops for a specified amount of turns. Then you'd have a decision to make... Other unit ideas include The Engineer (has to come back!) for building roads and airfields outside of your borders, helicopters as transport vehicles, C130 transports, and more specialized land units (example: MASH unit - if you've got one in your stack it could increase hitpoints, if that's possible with the code). Gotta have a SEAL type unit also. Has to stay within two tiles of the coast in AND out of the water. It would also be great if code would allow them to also follow rivers also as they were authorized to do in Viet Nam. They would be a stealth unit with high attack power, amphibious assault capability and sabotage capability. Of course, units like this have to be very expensive so that, like in real life, they only form a small part of the conventional or unconventional war effort. I have a horribly large amount of such unit ideas but you get where I'm coming from.

Now the tough stuff that I'd LOVE to see but is probably beyond the ability of your typical modmaker. The "arrest" thing falls onto this wish list. I agree wholeheartedly about having a prison screen where you can see what prisoners are in what prison etc. I also like the bit about discovering techs but I would make it a pretty slim chance, that's what espionage is for. I think there should be a special unit for making arrests. A police unit would be fine for arresting those damn lawyers and the CEOs, but they should be unable to arrest spies and agents and terrorists. You would need a Security Service unit to arrest those fellas (like FBI, MI5, Shin Bet). What's your advantage for arresting instead of expelling or killing? Well, if you're at war with the other civ then just kill them (if you know from whence they come - I'd love to see more levels of stealth in CTP2) if you want, or use them for the above mentioned intelligence purposes OR make it so that having a unit in a foreign prison causes significant unhappiness in the sponsoring civ. The unit itself could determine the amount of unhappiness, a terrorist unit would have a small effect while a secret agent or conventional military unit would have high effect (a secret agent would have high effect because of the negative PR the arresting nation would disperse to the media on capturing a spy from your civ). This would be ammo for diplomatic negotiations. It would be nice that if not at war, a military unit could be expelled. If you are not in an alliance, when is the presence of an unwelcome foreign military unit on your soil not an act of war? I hate that about Civ/CTP! Ya know how if you stack a slaver in your army and you win the battle, then you have some slaves? I'd like to see a way to take some modern military units prisoner in the same way, maybe have an MP unit in the stack that can perform that function, then when you win a battle you have POWs. Now if you want to be really cool, you could have special units that can bust prisoners out like the Son Tay raid or Delta Force rescuing that Kurt guy from a prison in Panama City!

Espionage: should be both units and a screen. Spies (gonna oversimplify the definition here) are foreign citizens paid or bribed or blackmailed or seduced into providing you with sensitive and non-sensitive info. Agents (once again oversimplified) are homeboys who infiltrate a foreign country to gather intel but, more importantly, to enlist spies. Most intel in modern times is gathered by SIGINT (Signals Intelligence - from monitoring foreign radio signals to using spy satellites) and the mundane task of bunches of analysts sifting through foreign newspapers and watching foreign TV broadcasts, as well as academics who study foreign politics and sociology etc. By the modern age, you should be able to call up a full city screen on most foreign cities! If you are at war, or if they are of certain government types like Communist or Fundamentalist then no, you would have to actually have an agent or spies in that city to get a city screen. When you have an agent (an actual unit that you have to get into that city) then you can cultivate spies. Two ways to have an agent in a city would be to put a unit there and the other would be to have an embassy. What I would like to see is the ability to set units IN foreign cities. Say you call up the German city of Berlin, you see what intel you are privy to and you see what units you have in place there. Could be an agent or two and some spies and even some stealth/covert "military" units like a terrorist (if you are of a government type that supports that sort of nasty unit) or counterterrorists/special action groups (the Israelis have entire counterterrorist units which masquerade as Arabs in Arab cities or Palestinian sections of Israel, and live there to hunt out or monitor insurgents). I'd like to have spies of varying levels of importance. Your agent would have to purchase spies in the foreign city at different costs. Simple spies would just give you the city screen. If the embassy is closed or the agent is arrested (should always be a chance (of varying degree dependent on the unit type) for any of these units) then you still have spies present. Of course, I'd require "x" amount of turns to get a new agent in that city before the spies fade away. There should also be higher level spies with different levels of possible benefit. A regular spy just gives city screen info (not needed in a friendly civ's city except as back-up in case you go to war sometime in the future) and also the location of all cities in that civ, a scientist spy could give you a per turn chance at picking up a new advance, a city manager spy might give you a (small) chance at duplicating the effects of a wonder present in that city, a military spy might give you knowledge of all that civ's non-stealth unit movements, an intel mole (needs to be in the foreign capitol city) could give you access to the foreign government's intelligence and movement of stealth units. To obtain these spies would have different costs. If you want to get really esoteric then high level government moles could influence other civ's foreign policy (make peace, make war, make/break alliances etc). Remember, this is just a wish list!

Travel: as I said, I wish you could place units in foreign cities (and vice versa), (btw, how would you combat this? government type for one...a communist government would be very difficult to penetrate; also, in a more open government, units and improvements could make it more likely for such incursions to be discovered and the units expelled or arrested, units like a police unit or antiterrorist unit or improvements like an FBI office (call it MI5 or State Security...whatever) or military base (another idea is that military units cause unhappiness in a city (should be defended by civilian police or militia units) unless a military base is present). Anyway, the other concept I had was that after your civ hits a certain milestone (some advance) then you start automatically getting ports and airports. That cool SLIC trigger (sorry, forgot the creator!) that spreads advances around to all civs after a couple of civs have obtained that advance would make this work even better. Once you have the ports and airports then Trade becomes automated and no more caravans. Also, like trade, your cities start linking up travel routes with other civ's cities. Give 'em a max of say four or five foreign cities with which they can link (like the AI does for non-human civ trade routes). You can also have five domestic cities you link with. Travel routes would also be dependent on your relationship with foreign governments. Obviously you have no airlines running to cities in governments of which you are at war etc. It can follow trade routes if you wish. What is all this for? Moving non-military units and some special stealth military units. Need a new agent in Rome? Pull up your screen for travel and pick a route via either air or sea. Build your unit in New York but you see that NY has no route to Rome, so you send it to Miami first and then to Lisbon and then to Rome. Same if you are at war with the Romans, you might have to find a more convoluted path to get there but you go to a city of a civ of which you are at peace and then maybe to a civ of a city that's at peace with them but mad at you, but they get along great with the Romans so there you go. Your travel screen would say "1 turn to Miami, 2 turns to Paris, 3 turns to Angkor, 2 turns to Rome" etc. If you arrive successfully (not arrested) then you have a stealth unit in Rome! How would you know possible flight or shipping routes through unfriendly foreign cities? By having spies in them! It would also be a neat function of terrorists, sabotage capable units and direct action units to break or disrupt these routes. Also, if the city is under attack then these routes go "asleep" and all travel has to be with military units until there is no attack for "x" amount of turns. Remember, this a Wish List!

Why not go to war? War is too easy in CTP. M.A.D. will make it a bit harder but that is primarily aimed at preventing nuclear war. Forget Corporate Branches and Lawyers...I'd like to see a "Global Economy" in CTP. At a certain point in time (some advance discovered - could even call it "Global Economy!") the rules change and other countries could really sock it to you in the pocketbook if you go warring indiscriminately. The effect would be determined by your relations with the other nations. If you are a loner then you are in big trouble. If the majority of the civs are your buddies or allies then the effect will be less. Also the popularity of the civ you war with would effect this formula. I don't think that war in and of itself should cause unhappiness, a popular war like the Desert Storm conflict can actually increase happiness at home, but wars where the whole world thinks you suck should cause massive economic penalties and secondary to that unhappiness at home. Why? To make conventional war more difficult to conduct and to make unconventional/covert warfare, espionage, war-by-proxy, deniable operations, terrorism (ie all the stuff I find most interesting and how war has primarily been conducted over the past 45 years) the preferred mode of warfare.

Sorry for the long winded post and maybe it should've been a new thread but seeing the arrest prisoners idea post just opened up the flood gates. This is just a portion of the ideas I have but I'm sure it's already more than you care to hear. I have TONS more! I made some CIV2 mods (for myself only, never uploaded them anywhere) and am investigating the CTP mods to see how they work. To me, when CTP hits the modern era it moves much too fast. WesW's Med Mod 4 improves this greatly. I'm not too interested in the future stuff (maybe near future - I love the WarWalker and Cyber Ninja) but I'd like to REALLY slow down the game in the modern era and make it get really strategic instead of a big warfest. When CTP2 comes out I'll try some new units and stuff but I ain't no WesW or Nordecus so my mods (if ever completed) will be humble but hopefully at least I'll enjoy them. Thanks for listening and remember, much of this is just a wish list for what I would love CTP2 to be.

[Atahualpa]

Wow man, hold your horses!

First of all please forgive me but lots of your suggestion would IMO overcomplex the game. For example:
Having a special police unit to arrest other UWU's doesnt make the situation better. Just think that your cities can only produce ONE thing at a time. Now if you have to build another unit to arrest UWU's this would be to much micro. Just remember you have to move that unit around and what if the UWU is right on the other side of your country. And no I dont think it would be fun to manage 20 police units. Besides the resources it takes to build them.

Also I think it isnt a good idea to have that much different UWU's. Personally I am not such a fan of UW. I just found it a nice addition not more. Depending on unconventional war is not the option I would prefer. Even because UW doesnt lead to your (my) goal: Conquer the world.

Your suggestion about spies would also be too complex IMO. For me it is enough to manage my own cities. I think I would be totally stressed managing spies in foreign cities (and there are lots of them).
Turns would take forever in later stages of the game! That would make multiplayer almost impossible. Only PBEM would be left over.

Nevertheless there were some points I found to be very good: Your point about Travel for example! I think this would be great for all the UWU's. Not that you have them to move on the main map but that you give them targets.
Of course this cannot be applied to all UWU's. A slaver for example must still be moved manually to catch settlers that are running around.
Nevertheless for a Diplomat for example I could imagine this way to go to other cities. So to say: All UWU's that dont deal with units but can only interact with cities should be moved via a Travel screen.


Finally not that you think I didnt like your idea and it didnt affect me: I still think it would be way too much micro to manage all those UWU's but this could be reduced by allowing only 1 at a time. For example only 1 seal team to be active, only 1 terrorist team....
This way your UWU's would also gain in value as you have only one (and you cant train another while yours is in an enemy prison). Now that would be another fine addition.

Plus you woke another idea in me: Spreading technology. As you develop a new technology your neighbours get them too after an amount of turns. For example you develop gunpowder and your nearest neighbour gets this Tech after 10 turns. Your next-nearest neighbour after 15 turns... . Of course its also the other way round when the AI develops a new Tech.
I dont know if this destroys game balance, but I think this could develop into a nice addition. (Besides it would help the AI as well).

Ata

[XMon]

Thanks for the feedback Atahualpa!

quote: First of all please forgive me but lots of your suggestion would IMO overcomplex the game. For example: Having a special police unit to arrest other UWU's doesnt make the situation better. Just think that your cities can only produce ONE thing at a time. Now if you have to build another unit to arrest UWU's this would be to much micro. Just remember you have to move that unit around and what if the UWU is right on the other side of your country. And no I dont think it would be fun to manage 20 police units. Besides the resources it takes to build them.

First off, I'm not one to have 40 small cities. I like 15 to 20 cities with massive Public Works for big population and big production. When I play CTP I put a Lawyer and a Spy (or Agent in Med Mod 4) in every city for defense against the current UW units. My thinking on the "police" units or the "security" units is that they would be relatively cheap and you just build them and put them asleep in your cities and wait until a UW unit rolls up on them. No big micromanagement problem because they're asleep most of the time. Like you said, when the annoying UW units come around, just arrest them and put them out of our misery.

quote: Also I think it isnt a good idea to have that much different UWU's. Personally I am not such a fan of UW. I just found it a nice addition not more. Depending on unconventional war is not the option I would prefer. Even because UW doesnt lead to your (my) goal: Conquer the world.

Don't get me wrong...my definition of UW is different than the current CTP definition. I HATE the Corporate Branches and Subneural Ads and Lawyers and Abolitionists and etc. I'd prefer to get rid of them. The only ones I use are the Lawyer for defense against all other UW and the Slaver for an early stealth spy unit and of course for stealing slaves from enemies. I don't include Spies and Agents and Cyber Ninjas in this hatred for UW. The others are irritating nuisances from other civ's and a PITA (pain in the a$#) to manage for MY civ. MY UW units are MILITARY units. They can fight, they can just do a couple of other extra things as well.

quote: Your suggestion about spies would also be too complex IMO. For me it is enough to manage my own cities. I think I would be totally stressed managing spies in foreign cities (and there are lots of them). Turns would take forever in later stages of the game! That would make multiplayer almost impossible. Only PBEM would be left over.

Well...a couple of thoughts...as far as managing goes, I planned on them being "asleep" until you need them. No managing involved. But yes, your are correct, since I did mention the presence of a certain "rank" of spy giving you a per turn chance of discovering something, OR any spy having a per turn chance of being arrested, this would slow down the game immensely. Maybe a better way of coding it would be if you (player) have an "x" chance of discovering a foreign advance every turn (like with the Internet Wonder but a very very low percentage). That's not too bad on the old processor. By placing a spy in a city you increase your percentage. By placing a "scientist spy" you increase the percentage by "x" amount. 10 scientist spies increase the percentage by "10 times x" amount. That wouldn't require as much processing power. As far as the percentage chance of your spy being arrested, maybe you could just have a value for the likelihood of arrest (small value like .1%) for a spy and then increase that likelihood by the number of spies place in the foreign civ. Then the unit arrested could be randomly picked. Also, if you go to war with another civ then the base likelihood of arrest goes from .1% to...say 5%. If you treat the spy units as "values" (called up on a screen) instead of as units then the processing requirements would go down. Here's an example of how it might go: you want to know what's going on in Marseilles because you're thinking about attacking that city. You find that you have no spies in Marseilles but you have three in Nice. These aren't real units, just values (like Boston doesn't have 4 caravans sitting there just because that city has 4 trade routes), however, by deciding that you would like to move a spy from from Nice to Marseilles you would have the option of using the travel screen to move the spy to Marseille (moving a value only) or "creating" a unit on the appropriate tile outside of Nice to move to the other city. Why have the option? Good point...and debatable. I was just thinking that if you needed some surveillance into the countryside you could send a spy "unit" out to snoop around. Basically, these aren't units unless you call them up as units. Otherwise, they're just values.

quote: Nevertheless there were some points I found to be very good: Your point about Travel for example! I think this would be great for all the UWU's. Not that you have them to move on the main map but that you give them targets. Of course this cannot be applied to all UWU's. A slaver for example must still be moved manually to catch settlers that are running around. Nevertheless for a Diplomat for example I could imagine this way to go to other cities. So to say: All UWU's that dont deal with units but can only interact with cities should be moved via a Travel screen.

My thoughts are that this is related to the timeline. In the "olden days" they've gotta walk or take a ship. In modern times they catch a flight. Just takes a credit card. Any unit before a certain advance (you can have a new one! "Commercial Flight") have to be physically transported. After that, non-military units (and also certain stealth UW military units) can just use the "Travel Screen."

quote: Finally not that you think I didnt like your idea and it didnt affect me: I still think it would be way too much micro to manage all those UWU's but this could be reduced by allowing only 1 at a time. For example only 1 seal team to be active, only 1 terrorist team.... This way your UWU's would also gain in value as you have only one (and you cant train another while yours is in an enemy prison). Now that would be another fine addition.

Remember, they're military units. If you don't want to manage them and you don't have a need for them then don't build them. I would make them VERY VERY expensive so that you did not have several SEAL units or Counterterrorist units. I don't know much about the game's AI yet but I would want the foreign civs with the appropriate tech advance to be prone to build one or two of these units and then not want to build anymore. I can understand only having one Counterterrorist unit per civ (as that is somewhat reflective of real world CT, but not really) but can't imagine just having one SEAL unit or Special Forces unit (for examples) as, in the real world, a bigger more productive nation would have more of these units.

quote: Plus you woke another idea in me: Spreading technology. As you develop a new technology your neighbours get them too after an amount of turns. For example you develop gunpowder and your nearest neighbour gets this Tech after 10 turns. Your next-nearest neighbour after 15 turns... . Of course its also the other way round when the AI develops a new Tech. I dont know if this destroys game balance, but I think this could develop into a nice addition. (Besides it would help the AI as well).

Med Mod 4 already has this trigger...or something similar! I'm sorry...I don't remember the author. I think it goes that "two foreign civs have an advance the all the civs get that advance." Could be wrong though! Something like that. I love it! It helps prevent the F-15s versus Knights problem.

I've started a game that does not allow "wheeled" units (like tanks and siege units) to travel in jungle or swamp. I changed the movement points so that foot troops and motorized units are not so far apart. Ummm...what else did I do? I changed the Paratrooper and the Cyber Ninja. I made the Paratrooper into a kind of Special Forces unit with stealth, ranged attack, light bombard and spy abilities. I made the Cyber Ninja into a mild attack, ranged attack, bombard and assassination capable unit (along with what it could do before). These are just some experiments into some of my ideas. This makes the Paratrooper a fast strong attack unit with some medium ranged strength (primarily so that if I stack it with another unit it is in the back row), some mild bombard strength (think of it as a stealth attack or sniping) and the ability to peep into a city (Long Range Reconnaissance). The changes I made to the Cyber Ninja were to just give it a little bit of attack (a Ninja that can't attack it silly), some light bombard (sniping or harrassing) and the ability to assassinate (what ninjas are for).

I'm only in the middle ages (galleons and knights) but if anyone cares I'll let you know how it goes. I think that making jungle and swamp impenetrable to wheeled vehicles will make the other units more valuable and make the game more interesting.

[Grumbold]

I'm all in favour of imprisoning special units. Heck, why the occasional missionary cannot disappear in unusual circumstances without war breaking out beats me too. The idea of scientifically advanced "western" nations flooding into the likes of cold-war era Russia, China or any tinpot dictatorship armed with lawyers and corporate branches always struck me as laughable. If only it wasn't so easy to switch government types I would be strongly in favour of allowing more ruthless types one or two free UWU kills per turn or complete immunity to certain types of attack. Personally though I'm just hoping that CTP2 will allow the 2nd Tank Corps to proceed unhindered along the roads without being blocked by any old foreign noncombatant and their entourage.

[Atahualpa]

Heck XMon could you make shorter posts?

quote: First off, I'm not one to have 40 small cities. I like 15 to 20 cities with massive Public Works for big population and big production.

Hmm well on large maps if you aim for global domination you wont get around 40 cities.
Playing style differs and of course I know this is your wishlist.

quote: When I play CTP I put a Lawyer and a Spy (or Agent in Med Mod 4) in every city for defense against the current UW units. My thinking on the "police" units or the "security" units is that they would be relatively cheap and you just build them and put them asleep in your cities and wait until a UW unit rolls up on them. No big micromanagement problem because they're asleep most of the time.

Hmm having a special police unit in your cities reduces the amount of military units to 11. Rather I would suggest some military units that have police functionality. Maybe something like a MP unit in modern age that is cheap with moderate attack and defense values (nothing that kicks ass) that is able to arrest people. Or just make it that all infantry units can arrest UWUs.

quote: MY UW units are MILITARY units. They can fight, they can just do a couple of other extra things as well.

Oh okay thanks for making your point clear. Now ok thats one thing I could agree too.
I imagine some kind of guerilla unit that has attack and defense strength but is able to infiltrate enemy cities...
Something along that line right?
Yeah that is a VERY good idea!!!!


About the spy idea: Would it still be as much fun if you just move some numbers? I mean moving some numbers, does that give you the feeling of spying someone out? If you treat them as values they are just well values. I hope you get the point.

quote: My thoughts are that this is related to the timeline. In the "olden days" they've gotta walk or take a ship. In modern times they catch a flight. Just takes a credit card. Any unit before a certain advance (you can have a new one! "Commercial Flight") have to be physically transported. After that, non-military units (and also certain stealth UW military units) can just use the "Travel Screen."

Like I said: Excellent idea!

quote: I don't know much about the game's AI yet but I would want the foreign civs with the appropriate tech advance to be prone to build one or two of these units and then not want to build anymore

Yeah that option is given! If you add a negative number next to the unit in the AIP files. For example the AI in CtP1 will never build more than 5 battleships at any time.

quote: I can understand only having one Counterterrorist unit per civ (as that is somewhat reflective of real world CT, but not really) but can't imagine just having one SEAL unit or Special Forces unit (for examples) as, in the real world, a bigger more productive nation would have more of these units.

I dont care much about real world. I just ask if the game balance would suffer. Just imagine a stack of 12 SEALs. Now who has a chance against them?

quote: I'm sorry...I don't remember the author

Wes Whitaker (aka WesW)

quote: I think it goes that "two foreign civs have an advance the all the civs get that advance." Could be wrong though! Something like that. I love it! It helps prevent the F-15s versus Knights problem.

Hmm yeah thats what I thought. I think it should be tested with CtP2. It would really help the AI and the positive thing is that when you are behind it also helps you. So no side loses.

quote: I'm only in the middle ages (galleons and knights) but if anyone cares I'll let you know how it goes. I think that making jungle and swamp impenetrable to wheeled vehicles will make the other units more valuable and make the game more interesting.

Go into the cheat menu and give you the appropriate advances and your enemies as well.
Put some of these units somewhere on the map and let them fight against each other.

quote: I've started a game that does not allow "wheeled" units (like tanks and siege units) to travel in jungle or swamp. I changed the movement points so that foot troops and motorized units are not so far apart.

Another excellent idea! Yeah I would too reduce the moving ability of wheeled units. Tanks are way too strong and render all infantry units obsolete. I just build them cause they are cheaper or for city defenses but not for attacking. This is sad since I think infantry is way cooler!

Grumbold: Good point! A sniper unit (as of XMons definition a military unit with assassinate capability) kills UWUs with low chance of being detected (10%)

quote: Personally though I'm just hoping that CTP2 will allow the 2nd Tank Corps to proceed unhindered along the roads without being blocked by any old foreign noncombatant and their entourage.

Well said

ATa

[XMon]

AAAaaaarrrggghhhh....!

OK, a shorter post here.

The no wheeled units in jungle thing doesn't appear to be working! I figured it would be as simple as giving jungle and swamp the TERRAIN_TYPE_MOUNTAIN flag yet retaining the name jungle (and swamp) and the jungle (and swamp) icon(s), but apparently it's not that simple. My siege engine just rolls merrily through the jungle like it was nothing. I REALLY want to make that change. Tanks should not fight in the jungle. Just infantry.

I agree with Grumbold about being able to kill UWUs without starting a war. In fact, ANY time a foreign unit is in your borders AND they refuse a no trespassing demand, you should be able to kill them and just make the foreign civ's regard of you go down a couple of notches (but this is only if they're trespassing). When the Soviets shot down KAL-007, no one went to war over that.

Could a sniper unit work with the current CTP code? Would it be possible for a stealth unit to kill another unit (not CONDUCT_HIT which a whole different thing, an act against a city) and only have a chance of being discovered? This would be SO COOL! If that's not possible then maybe we could just get rid of the Lawyer unit and replace it with a sniper looking guy. Any units you want to be vulnerable to sniping, you make "can be sued" or whatever the flag is called. When the other unit rolls up on the sniper then you "sue" them and, if you're talented enough to make the animated sprite, the sniper shoots them and they die horribly! The only downsides are that I believe you have a 0% chance of being caught and, of course, the ultimate fun would be using the sniper to shoot lawyers. Wouldn't you love to lay snipers out at all your possible entry points and just waste those UWUs when they come through your borders!

quote: Personally though I'm just hoping that CTP2 will allow the 2nd Tank Corps to proceed unhindered along the roads without being blocked by any old foreign noncombatant and their entourage.

CTP2 is supposed to actually let us name armies (stacks) which is pretty neat. So you will be able to have a 2nd Tank Corps if you want. That bit about the foreign noncombatant happens in real life though, and I use it in the game. If I capture an enemy city that I don't want to keep, I start making settlers to get the size down small enough to disband and I send those settlers down the roads to slow down the enemy attack (no...I wouldn't do it in real life, I'm no butcher, but it's only a game and I have no qualms about using stormtroopers or nukes either). If you do that you will also find that the AI will use it's fighters and interceptors on the settlers rather than on your military units. In the war between Iraq and Iran, the Iraqis claim that the Iranians sent "waves" of civilians, including women and children, at advancing Iraqi forces as a buffer to slow their advance on Iranian military, knowing the less fundamentalist Iraqis would be loathe to attack the civilians.

[QUOTE}Hmm well on large maps if you aim for global domination you wont get around 40 cities.[/QUOTE]

I like the IDEA of the big map, much more realistic, but the time between turns kills me (400MHz PII with 64 RAM, maybe I need more RAM). Plus, I hate attacking cities called Berlin2 or London3. Maybe I'll try it again soon.

quote: Hmm having a special police unit in your cities reduces the amount of military units to 11. Rather I would suggest some military units that have police functionality. Maybe something like a MP unit in modern age that is cheap with moderate attack and defense values (nothing that kicks ass) that is able to arrest people. Or just make it that all infantry units can arrest UWUs.

Great idea. The MP could be like the Slaver. When you put a Slaver in a stack and you win a battle you get slaves. With an MP in a stack you would get Prisoners Of War! Very cool. Of course, you could always use the MP on it's own to arrest the UWUs that the sniper misses!

quote: Oh okay thanks for making your point clear. Now ok thats one thing I could agree too. I imagine some kind of guerilla unit that has attack and defense strength but is able to infiltrate enemy cities... Something along that line right? Yeah that is a VERY good idea!!!!

Yup, exactly. Well...sort of. I mean, I wouldn't call it "guerilla" because that's a whole nutha ball of wax, but that's the general idea. Military units with special capabilities and stealth. I know some guys dig aviation and would love 10 different jet fighters and other guys love naval warfare and want dozens of ships to play with. I could easily come up with 20 different military UW units (guerillas, counterguerillas, terrorists, counterterrorists, antiterrorists, commandos, airborne shock troops, force multipliers, combat divers, combat controllers, elite security units, long range recon, mercenaries, snipers, assassins, saboteurs, provocateurs and etc etc etc) but I know most guys wouldn't like all those units. I guess CTP2 is going to have "unit creation" function. I'll probably go hog wild with that! I hope they give us a bunch of extra animated sprites to play with...

quote: About the spy idea: Would it still be as much fun if you just move some numbers? I mean moving some numbers, does that give you the feeling of spying someone out? If you treat them as values they are just well values. I hope you get the point.

It's OK to disagree on certain aspects of the game play. I like the spies but late in the game I get tired of just moving them around ("Oh look, the Turks built another city, I was wondering when someone was going to put a city there.") looking at stuff. To me that's micromanagement. Once I discover something or some area, I just want to be able to go back and look there and get an update. I love the GlobeSat Wonder. It allows me to see everything going on outside of cities and always up-to-date. Once I spy on a city, I want to be able to call my Director of Intelligence and say "Hey! What's going on in Bangkok?" and get a city screen. I don't want to have to ship a spy halfway across the world and then have Grumbold kill him for no good reason.

quote: I dont care much about real world. I just ask if the game balance would suffer. Just imagine a stack of 12 SEALs. Now who has a chance against them?

12 Counterterrorist units! 12 Armor units would also beat 12 SEALS on land but that's not the idea, of course. In the real world these kinds of units aren't used in direct combat (unless some dumbass general doesn't have a clue about special forces like in Panama) because a) that's not what they're trained for or equipped for and b) because they are too valuable. They are trained for unconventional missions and they conduct missions where every man has a very good chance of surviving. A SEAL unit is kind of like an F117 Stealth fighter. You don't send it out on a mission where there's a good chance of it getting killed or shot down. It's too expensive. How do you translate that to AI? I don't know. Maybe limiting the number that can be built is the answer. Can you make units "non-stackable?" This reflects a real debate that has occurred in the US military and helped to spur the creation of the Joint Special Operations Command. The argument was that traditional conventional Army commanders were using special operation units as "shock troops" or elite infantry. When you use units like Delta Force (who are actually trained to assault hijacked commercial jets and rescue hostages or to penetrate and attack underground nuclear weapons facilities, among other things) as front line infantry then you are wasting a valuable resource. Until JSOC was created, the CIA seemed to be the only big US agency that had a decent grasp on how to use these units. The Brits, among others, always (at a high military command level) have had a better sense of how to utilize units of this type. Anyway...can this be translated to AI? Probably not, if the unit has attack capability then the AI will probably use it indiscriminately. So maybe limiting the number produced is the answer.

quote: Wes Whitaker (aka WesW)

The trigger is in Med Mod 4 but I don't think Wes created it. I could be wrong. I think someone just posted it on one of these forums and he added it to version 4. I wouldn't forget Wes's name!

I guess I lied about this being a shorter post.

[Atahualpa]

Well making SEALS non stackable would be the only solution I could think of.
In CtP there is no difference between front-line troops and special troops. There is only the attack and defense value.
Plus defending 12 SEALS with 12 Counterterrorists is not an option either since that would result in a war of giants. Only those nations will survive that have a stack of 12 special forces units and thats not in the sense of special forces units. But well non stackable would mean that you cant have them in a city when other units are their too. You cant move them where other units of yours are placed. BUT you could make an stacked attack and defense value and a non-stacked attack and defense value. Now if a SEAL is stacked the attack and defense rates would be quite lower. If they are not stacked they have awesome attack and defense rates. This would be the only solution (and I think it is an awesome one) that I can think of.
Unfortunately the code of CtP wont allow you to do this and I dont think it would be in CtP2 either. Like the damn imprisoning idea would not be in.

Ata

[Atahualpa]

Besides XMon I think your jungle problem is because you didnt start a new game. Didnt you know? Everytime you change something in the files you have to start a new game in order for the changes to effect.

Ata

[Atahualpa]

quote: Wouldn't you love to lay snipers out at all your possible entry points and just waste those UWUs when they come through your borders!

Nah I wouldnt as the enemy could do the same with my UWUs. That would render UW obsolete.

ATa

[Grumbold]

I don't consider settlers an UWU so blocking the roads with refugees is a legitimate ploy. The unit represents a significant number of people, after all. Its the UWU's like lawyers that I believe should not hinder military movement. Perhaps this would require the separation of military and non-military stacking limits to allow a foreign UWU to temporarily occupy the same square as your army.

[XMon]

quote: Well making SEALS non stackable would be the only solution I could think of.

Or there could just be a limit on how many the AI could build. The humans would have to be on the "honor system!"

Honestly, I wouldn't make SEALs stronger than tanks. Just stealthier and faster. Tanks should beat SEALs or counterterrorists if stacked equally. Non-stackable would a great option. How about if the counterterrorist unit cost more than all other units? Another thing...I think the code would allow this...you are allowed one (or two or three) counterterrorist unit...if you build a second one, the first one disbands. That could keep the human players under control.

quote: Besides XMon I think your jungle problem is because you didnt start a new game. Didnt you know? Everytime you change something in the files you have to start a new game in order for the changes to effect.

I tried it. I started a new game. Used cheat to create a tank and it did not work. I have no idea why, but that's not surprising since I don't know that much about the code!

quote: Nah I wouldnt as the enemy could do the same with my UWUs. That would render UW obsolete.

Exactly! I hate UW (CTP version). I'm going to start thinking about ways to turn all of those units into something else (like I was dreaming about making lawyers into snipers).

quote: Its the UWU's like lawyers that I believe should not hinder military movement. Perhaps this would require the separation of military and non-military stacking limits to allow a foreign UWU to temporarily occupy the same square as your army.

Great idea but I bet that would require a major change in the code that even Activision would hesitate to undertake. How about if military units could "bump" UWs out of the way. If a military unit wants to occupy a tile that has a UW sitting on it, the UW bumps to a randomly picked unoccupied tile within 1 movement or the nearest unoccupied tile if he's surrounded. I bet the code could handle that.

Anybody know anything about that Phantom space ship's "cloaking" capability? I don't care much for those superfuturistic space units but I'm interested in the fact that the unit's values change when the unit goes into the stealth mode. Very cool possibilities perhaps. Like different movement points in stealth mode vs regular mode.

[Big Dave]

quote: Originally posted by XMon on 09-14-2000 08:54 PM Honestly, I wouldn't make SEALs stronger than tanks. Just stealthier and faster. Tanks should beat SEALs or counterterrorists if stacked equally.

I catagorically disagree. The USMC has a saying "Hunting tanks is both easy and fun".

Modern combat on the tactical level is like a game of rock/paper/scissors only it's artillery/infantry/armor. It goes like this: Artillery kills infantry, infantry kills armor, and armor breaks through the lines to take out artillery.

------------------
Big Dave

If you don't stand for something
you'll fall for anything.

[Stratesford]

Dave that is the best idea I have heard so far. I just hope activision still reads the posts on these forums. I hevn't seen any activision posts for a while, I wonder if they still read these posts...

[Atahualpa]

Actually XMon this was the "only" idea I could think of. I forget the other one to take out:

quote: BUT you could make an stacked attack and defense value and a non-stacked attack and defense value. Now if a SEAL is stacked the attack and defense rates would be quite lower. If they are not stacked they have awesome attack and defense rates. This would be the only solution (and I think it is an awesome one) that I can think of.

Ata

[MWatts]

I think there is an easier way to solve the problem without making unconventional units useless.

When a spy or cyber ninja try to cause a revolt, the cost is weighted based on various factors. Currently the cost is fixed for other unconventional unit attack types, so add this type of weighting to all unconventional unit attacks, just not as expensive as forcing a revolt. This logic is already in the game and should be easy to implement.

Another option would be to have the game track what units had attacked each city, and decrease the success percent for that unit each time. Eventual that unit would have little or no effect on a specific city.

A third option would be to prevent certain special attacked from being done on a civilization based on it's current development status. For example, you can't sue a nation when it does not have a legal system, or use a televangelist in one without the ability to produce TV or radio. This would give a less advanced nation a better chance to catch up.

These suggestions could be used alone or in combination, and involve a lot less micro management on the player's part.