Why no space?

VivalaCTP2 · September 23, 2000, 03:28

Does everyone think it will be better whithout space in CTP II? I know myself that I didn't fight any wars there, whoever gets there first usually has a monopoly on the thing. Ideas ....... ? !

Chris Horscroft · September 26, 2000, 08:11

I think that's the point. There is little balance as far as I can see about the space system as it stands. Space-borne weapons are good enough to knock-off anyone who follows you into space, and war-walkers and tanks etc put into orbit can drop on foreign nations in sufficient quantity to render the first player in space almost always victorious.

Personaly I really like the idea of low orbit cities, and the space bombers I tend to use in some force against anyone attempting to build the alien life project. I happily drop armies next to foreign capitals. But it doesn't seem to do much for the game's balance!

I think that the focus on undersea development is a better option, but I'm going to miss the stars...

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Chris Horscroft

DaveWhite · September 26, 2000, 23:21

Actually, we do have a Space Plane unit. The unit is a transport that can do a quick (3 turn) sub-orbital flight between any two cities.

Dave White
Lead Game Designer - CTP2

MidKnight Lament · September 27, 2000, 00:34

Heh, heh. Dave's my new favourite Actigrammer!

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- MKL
"I'm OK. How are you? Thanks for asking, thanks for asking."
Shameless Plug: http://www.poetic-license.org

September 27, 2000, 00:51

welcome Dave!

so, how many units can it carry?

meriadoc · September 27, 2000, 00:59

I know that it's a little late, but I have an idea. The space layer in CTP was really useful for transferring military units from city to city. Does anyone remember the airlift feature from CivII? Is there any chance that we can get a similar feature in CTP2? With that addition I really wouldn't miss the space layer at all.

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The Electronic Hobbit

DaveWhite · September 27, 2000, 15:28

It can carry 5 units. Enough to be useful in mobilizing large armies without being so many that you can freely move everything anywhere on the map. It's best used to move units from deep within your empire to the front lines, or from one continent to another.

September 30, 2000, 00:16

Will the space plane be "invisable?" Is it possible to intercept it? I know that you said the space layer was cut out, so how will it work, in the game? Will it be like civII ("you cannot drop due to enemy air force") or some thing completely different?

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"And it was destined that he should fall before the mighty hoof of our Lord and King of Spain."

slamp · October 3, 2000, 05:18

I'm sad, I think space is funny. It's a new level, it's a new way to grow the number of cities. It represents a sort of evolution: colonize earth then, deep ocean, then space.
I like to see a star wars.
I'm not agree that first civilization in space always win the game.

slamp · October 3, 2000, 05:23

double post
[This message has been edited by slamp (edited October 03, 2000).]

Westergaard · October 4, 2000, 15:26

I'm absolutely new to the CtP2 forum - in fact I'm absolutely new to CtP2 at all. And a couple of hours ago I saw the promotion video and I thought "Wow! What a cool game!" Especially I like the underwater scene from the future. "So maybe I'll just browse the forums to see what it is all about". So I do, and the first thing catching my eye is the line "Why no space?" - "Yikes" I think "with such a cool video promoting future civilization and everything, how could they possible leave space?!?!" and I still don't get it. If anything, space colonies would come before aquatic settlements (more gains). How can they leave spaceexploration out "For gameplay reasons!?!" If it's unbalancing for the game then BALANCE IT! Don't care how - you're the programmers - you can do it. And no matter how you twist it, it's still impossible to model future societies without space exploitation!

I'm not buying the game if you don't have space exploration! I mean it!

October 4, 2000, 15:50

get CTP1 then

Westergaard · October 5, 2000, 10:47

Oh - that's clever!

Never thought of that.

(I'm being sarcastic)

Only thing is that I always thought sequels were supposed to improve and enhance existing games. Not reduce them!

(Seriously though - I really consider buying CtP1. I find the going to space thing exciting - but how about the rest of the game? Is it worth anything?)

October 5, 2000, 11:16

first of all, sometimes you have to make something smaller to make it better

quote:

(Seriously though - I really consider buying CtP1. I find the going to space thing exciting - but how about the rest of the game? Is it worth anything?)

well, i found it worth buying(and i bought it

)

some links:
our review http://apolyton.net/ctp/previewindex.shtml

people reviews for the winhttp://apolyton.net/cgi-bin/links/review.cgi?ID=102, mac http://apolyton.net/cgi-bin/links/review.cgi?ID=126 and linux http://apolyton.net/cgi-bin/links/review.cgi?ID=104 versions

the very helpfull "which mods should i get" thread http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum7/HTML/002109.html

if you search in the news archives you can find more previews
http://apolyton.net/ctp/news (up to decemeber '99) http://apolyton.net/news/archive.shtml (after decmeber '99)

[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited October 05, 2000).]

Atahualpa · October 5, 2000, 11:55

I wouldnt recommend buying CtP1!
It has way too many bugs and support was cancelled after second patch! Thats why I dont recommend it anymore! I was really mad when they cancelled all support. Also they said they would release some scenarios and such but NOTHING! In short: They left the game unfinished! There is a usermade patch available that corrects some features that the original patch 1.2 missed! That alone is a reason to not recommend it! When users have to finish their products. Doing unpaid work for the community whereas those at Activision just suck all the money out and then go away!
Nevertheless I forgive them (how nice *self-sarcastic*) and wait and see what the sequel can or cannot. Then I decide if I return the game or not.

Wait for CtP2! Even without space it will be fun! I mean it!
But if you find it at a low price, one that wouldnt hurt you, you could give it a try.
With the Med Mod 4.0 it is a pretty good game. The AI is much smarter in Med Mod! Therefor the game is much more challenging.
The AI in CtP1 is so laughable you can play CtP1 Original on Deity and you will still rule (if you are a halfway experienced player).
You know Diplomacy is so crappy in CtP1 and will be so great in CtP2!
Even without space I am sure CtP2 will be a hella more fun than CtP1 was!
So my advice: Buy CtP2 (when it comes out of course or do as i do and wait for some reviews and player comments and THEN buy it)!

The thing why Space was left out in CtP2 is that it overfeatured the game! IMO! Besides I were not a fan of space either. I just didnt like the idea everybody could land in the midst of my empire (where the weaker defended cities were). Also you couldnt really enjoy space since the game only "featured" 350 turns and that was way too little. (CtP2 features 500 turns).

You know nobody would like a feature like space if it wasnt properly implemented and you can have a look at CtP1 and see what features are not properly implemented and then tell me again that you want such features in CtP2!

If they do the underwater thing right CtP2 will be a pretty fine game (apart now from AI, I really really hope the AI is a LOT smarter)! If not it will suck!

I hope I could make my point clear!
ATa

Slax · October 5, 2000, 17:03

Space seemed silly. Somehow these cities in space were highly productive, yet orbitted not far from the earth. What resources are they collecting? I can only think of space dust, meteors and solar radiation.

I like the direction Activision is taking: removing space cities, but leaving a space plane. I would also like to see satellites, but thats it.

Concentrate on land and sea. Its complicated enough (ie. no civ game has done a good job at naval attacks). With that improved, perhaps add space in some later (much later) release.

Westergaard · October 8, 2000, 04:21

quote:

Originally posted by Atahualpa on 10-05-2000 11:55 AMYou know nobody would like a feature like space if it wasnt properly implemented and you can have a look at CtP1 and see what features are not properly implemented and then tell me again that you want such features in CtP2!

In that case it's not space exploration that's rotten - It's the programming! And this is a new game with new programming, so I can't see why they just give it another shot. It seems like they should know how it shouldn't be done, by now :-).

I just think it's sad that one poor implementation completely rules space out of future versions. Since space is an important part of the future in the real world, it shoulnd't just be avoided for gameplay reasons.

But anyways, thanks for the links - won't be able to afford the game within the next months however

Gedrin · October 9, 2000, 16:24

Couple of things.

I'm all confused about this talk of more turns...
My original files have 585 turns. Are my original files screwed up? When did CTP have 350 turns? I mean it's all right there in diffDB.txt... could someone set me straight about this?

On another note. I too wish space was still there. I mean why not give space cities an active_defense_range of say 2 and a big ranged attack factor. This would solve the attack from orbit problem since you could cover your empire with defensive cities in space and that would be that. The cities might fall but they couldn't just walk in and nail them.

I don't really think they bit off more than they could chew. I think they just didn't actually do enough chewing.

Now I have to admit I don't have a lot of experience with the space era in CTP. The only game I ever got there I was beating a horse so long dead... but I wanted to see all the units and stuff.

Gedrin

lev · October 11, 2000, 13:06

I was annoyed when I first read that space would be left out of CtP2. I hate it when newer versions of games cut out cool features of older versions (like the timeline from Civ I!).

But then I got to thinking about it, and I never got much out of the space feature. If I got to space first, I would pretty much dominate it, and it would give me too much power to space-bomb and space-drop my enemies into submission. The game would no longer be a challenge, and I'd usually abandon it before achieving victory conditions.

The undersea features of CtP is what keeps me from going back to Civ II, so I'm glad Activision has enhanced that aspect of the game.

So I guess I agree with their decision to drop the space level. But an L-5 space colony would work well as a Wonder, maybe relieving population pressures in your cities...

Dr Strangelove · October 12, 2000, 00:22

Well, come to think of it, wouldn't a nation able to completely dominate space, or as Ronald Reagan called it, "the high ground", have a decisive advantage over other nations? I mean, in CTP you can transfer armies via space! CTP left out 2 things

1) A nation militarizing space in such a fashion would automatically rally the rest of the world against them. (2)CTP left out "SDI". Shouldn't other nations have been able to develop long range weapons against the space vehicles?

FreeChina · October 13, 2000, 17:34

The space cities have on major flaw though, game-wise, they are in fixed positions. Low orbit anything would not have a fixed position at all, it would orbit over every part of the world in a week or so. High orbit makes no sense.

Basically, the three dimensionality of space makes it impossible to implement without either a very confusing interface (anyone ever do polar coordinates in trignometry class?- now try 3D) or being unrealistic as it is in CTP1.

Dr Strangelove · October 14, 2000, 00:15

How about the ability to build a "Mass Driver", i.e., a weapon that is able to drop really big rocks on your enemies, hitting the earth at speeds of over 25,000 miles per hour. This would be a much more devastating weapon than nuclear bombs. Instead of reducing the population of the hex it would leave a big uninhabitable crater. You'd have to watch how many you dropped or the game ends with all players being losers!

Westergaard · October 16, 2000, 05:15

FreeChina:
Good points. Maybe the spacecities should just be assumed to be in the space i.e. "you have 21 cities in space" but without a specific location.

Of course that would make space-combat very abstract. On the other hand, I always thought that space marines were unrealistic - in real world you'd just send a missile against the spacestructure.

That could easily be implemented, but it would create a situation were space attacks were very hard to defend against. However I also think that it should be very hard to defend - it would in real life. The only real defense of space, should be the ability to strike back in sufficient force, in the case of an attack i.e. the "balance of power defense"

3rdTrial · October 17, 2000, 18:04

I agree with the general voice when they state that space cities come to late in the game to make a difference.

But space has other uses. One of the silly thing of CTP that I always consider was the obsolecense of globesat. Do anybody really thinks that the first nation to build it, would really turn it off?

If stheat units don't show anymore, this would be only valid for such units....

Also, globesat if the singular most powerfull wonder in battle! That makes the game harder to balance after it has been built. Like the forcefiled wonder where other civ's can build them one by one on their cities, players should be able to build spy satelites and put them fixed in orbit or just have them move around automatically in patterns (21st century lightning posts?)

Those units could even have defense and bombard capabilites but have to be in space so that they can hover over enemy cities....

Bartemans · October 18, 2000, 05:50

Hello,

Ever heard of the geostationary orbit?

In the real world, this is the orbit right above the equator, when the sattelite has an atltitude of about 36000 km. Then the angular speed of the sattelite is the same as the angular speed of the Earth itself.
(excuse me, I'm Dutch, so my scientific English might not be A-OK)

It is pretty real, espescially if there is one zone above the equator where space cities can be built. (For game comfort, I would love to drop some scientific arguments).

However, spacecities were fun, but it made the game real slow. I am playing it (CTPI) on a PIII-500 MHz and the game is going quite well, except when I'm working in space. Moving a spaceplane or so is going so slow that I've lost most of the fun of space.

Regards,

Bartemans
http://home.hccnet.nl/stolte.1