CTP way too America-centric

[Atahualpa]

quote: Originally posted by Stratesford on 10-23-2000 05:37 AM They should also put some latin american wonders too. like in anncient times the "el Castillo" or "tikal". in the R. they should put "teotihuacan" (site of the biggest pyramid in the world), for modern times they should put something like "Rio d' janeiro" that giives caravns more money(turists) or cancun (fyi: mexico is the country with more turists/population, 2nd place is korea, why korea?)

IIRC in CtP1 there was Chichen Itza.

Ata

[KhanMan]

quote: Originally posted by Tilemacho on 10-23-2000 09:06 AM Well I think you need some more history lessons before you can say things like that... It's a huge difference to have Democracy (with all the problems someone could adress) in a time where everyone else has Monarchy and Tyranny, and have a Democracy that functions better in a time that many others try the same system.....

Actually, I am well versed in world history. You, as a Greek, probably have read the history of Thucydides-if you have, it shows how badly the Athenians treated Alcibiades. Also, the whims of public opinion were well documented in the disaterous Sicilian campaign.

The use of the ostrakan to banish anyone people didn't like isn't much like modern democracy, where people aren't banished or killed after they lose office.

Roman democracy was pleasing the crowds, and constant warfare between demagogues, is this real democracy?

Plus, American democracy was closer to a Republic in the early years, up to the Civil War.

MHO, that is.

"...and then the general went to Artemisium to pray..."
-closing lines of Thucydides' History

i'm no history expert but....

quote: Originally posted by KhanMan on 10-23-2000 06:36 AM Are you counting the Republics of Athens and early Rome as democracies? They had no set protections of individual rights

hmmmmm... the right (of an Athenian) to vote? to be equal against the law? to have property?

quote: , and, of course, voting was restricted to a select few.

yeah, but well, there was never a case were people did vote
and half the adult population of the city is not a "few"...

quote: Originally posted by KhanMan on 10-24-2000 05:06 AM The use of the ostrakan to banish anyone people didn't like isn't much like modern democracy, where people aren't banished or killed after they lose office

actually, the idea was to stop anyone who got too much power. perhaps it wasnt always executed perfectly, but then again, which idea ever did?

[rhodie]

This is rapidly deterioratinto a we built this first conflagration. I think that we should return to teh point of the post. I have no problem with an Anglo-American hegemony on modern wonders, but do think that representation of certain acheivements out of the western hemisphere should be addressed. I really liked the Bullet Train idea.

Other wonder ideas, some dragged in from Civ II:-

Marco Polo's Journey
Great Zimbabwe (mysterious city in Southern Africa)
King Solomon's Mines
Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem

Truth is I know some of whats in the game as new wonders - very nice...

[WesW]

Here are the Wonders we added for the Med mod. I have seen a number of these in the posts here.
The new Opera House inprovement I added to the game has the Sydney opera house as its symbol.
Some of the wonders were chosen more for their effect on the game and the time period in which they appeared rather than the merits of the actual item.

ICON_WONDER_TEMPLE_OF_SOLOMON
ICON_WONDER_GREAT_LIBRARY (of Alexandria, Egypt)
ICON_WONDER_ROYAL_SHAKESPEARE_CO
ICON_WONDER_THE_PRINCE (Machiavelli's book)
ICON_WONDER_KREMLIN
ICON_WONDER_COHORT
ICON_WONDER_COLOSSUS (of Rhodes)
ICON_WONDER_PLATOS_ACADEMY
ICON_WONDER_LIGHTHOUSE (of Alexandria, Egypt)
ICON_WONDER_TAJ_MAHAL
ICON_WONDER_INQUISITION
ICON_WONDER_CRUSADES
ICON_WONDER_MEZQUITA (a mosque and university in Spain)
ICON_WONDER_ST_PETERS_BASILICA
ICON_WONDER_BEETHOVENS_6TH_SYMPHONY
ICON_WONDER_US_CONSTITUTION
ICON_WONDER_STATUE_OF_LIBERTY
ICON_WONDER_NEWTONS_PRINCIPIA
ICON_WONDER_BOLSHOI_THEATRE
ICON_WONDER_LE_CODE_NAPOLEON
ICON_WONDER_MAOS_LITTLE_RED_BOOK
ICON_WONDER_TRANS_ATLANTIC_CABLE
ICON_WONDER_PANAMA_CANAL
ICON_WONDER_ORIGIN_OF_SPECIES
ICON_WONDER_FORDS_ASSEMBLY_PLANT
ICON_WONDER_EQUAL_RIGHTS_MOVEMENT
ICON_WONDER_GANDHIS_SATYAGRAHA
ICON_WONDER_MASTER_RACE
ICON_WONDER_DISNEY_WORLD
ICON_WONDER_UNITED_NATIONS
ICON_WONDER_APOLLO_PROGRAM
ICON_WONDER_PENTAGON
ICON_WONDER_DOMINIQUES_SOLUTION
ICON_WONDER_E_COMMERCE
ICON_WONDER_TISSUE_REGENERATION
ICON_WONDER_DNA_DATING
ICON_WONDER_NEW_WORLD_ORDER
ICON_WONDER_THE_BORG
ICON_WONDER_TELEPORTATION
ICON_WONDER_PATOLA_PALACE
ICON_WONDER_PASTEUR_INSTITUTE

[Big Dave]

If you're going to count the US Constitution as a Wonder (and I'm not saying you shouldn't) you really ought to have the Magna Carta as a prerequisite. It wouldn't have to be discovered by the same civ (see historical example above), but somebody should have discovered it before the Constition is researched.

Well, now that I've deleted my little rant on success-bashing, I'll agree that CTP was written in the U.S. and with a great lack of historical research. Best of luck educating Activision.

------------------
Big Dave

My karma ran over my dogma.
[This message has been edited by Big Dave (edited October 24, 2000).]

[KhanMan]

Am I the only one who sees the irony of the Anglo-Americano-Centric Wonders? Take a look at the original list of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, and you'll see that almost all were in Greece, Egypt, or colonies of the two.

That said, maybe if we throw all the wonders (like the Masoleum of Miletus) back in, we'll get a list that's sufficiently Anglo-American-Egyptian-Greek-centric to please everyone...

...er, wait, where does that leave the Aussies and the Canadians?

"We need more Antartica-Centric Wonders!"
-KhanMan

[Stratesford]

Latin American wonders is what we need, like the mayan calander and the Aztec worrior code and $hit like that.

[red_jon]

The democracy thing was that the great library explanation mentions nothing about where democracy originated, only about US rights to vote.

Oh, and don't forget, even though greece did not allow everyone to vote, DID THE AMERICANS BEFORE 1950?

Freedom and equality has evolved over time, it was not invented all at once, so perhaps in a future game, you should be able to grant rights graually?


------------------
...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

quote: Originally posted by KhanMan on 10-25-2000 06:29 AM Am I the only one who sees the irony of the Anglo-Americano-Centric Wonders? Take a look at the original list of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, and you'll see that almost all were in Greece, Egypt, or colonies of the two.

yeah, well, cause that's what the phrase "ancient world" refers to...

[Old Bear]

Perhaps we should limit wonders to those that have a profound effect/affect on civilization(s) in general.
Invention of wheel, coinage, bronze(not a natural substance), forging of iron, Great Wall of China, Magna Carta, UN, Calendar(a development in severalcivilizations),
development of compass etc. See my drift. So called great wonders merely glorify their particular civilization. In CIV I & II wonders can affect the game in the early stages, in CTP the effects are not that earth shaking. Heck, if they are that important to your
chauvinistic views, then create your own list.
And if you look at CTP 1 you should realize that CTP2 probably won't be any more historically correct than it's predecessors.

------------------
The secret to life is-
there isn't any.

[Changmai Beagle]

In case anyone is looking for Canuck-centric wonders, we could throw in insulin, the telephone, maybe radio (that could be sort of an Italian-American-Canadian wonder), and hockey (every new army would start out as veteran fighters ;-)

From Asia one could include the Buddha, Bollywood (?), the Three Rivers Dam, the jungle temples in Cambodia (sorry I've forgotten the name), etc.

[MadWoodster]

Don't forget folks we also have feats of wonder as well now (minor wonders)

[JamesJKirk]

If by democracy you mean equal sufferage for all men and women regardless of color, and what not, the US was first at that de jure, while maybe not de facto. You can't consider Athens a democracy really, it was just a bunch of rich white guys sitting around discussing what to do, what's even more necessary than universal sufferage for democracy in modern thinking is unversal civil liberties and equality before the law. maybe someday there WILL be a democracy somewhere then, eh? Oh, and maybe the Statue of Liberty was used so that it would apply to the US and the French? and Chinese dissidents?

Also, Big Dave, Brits are working with us on intelligence gathering so they can spy on our citizens, we can spy on them, and then we can share info without breaking US law, isn't that great? UKUSA or Echelon. Oh, and the historical relevence of the Magna Carta is vastly overstated, it just mean that they king had to work with the aristocracy a bit more to exploit the masses, and while the US constitution is good, I'd say the Dec of Independence has had more of an impact on the world. (Even Ho Chi Minh used it as a guide).

About space stations, I think Apollo represented the technology to get stuff that high into space that worked, it's like a nationalistic achievement and it shows you have technology for advanced satellites too. Uh, and we had Skylab too. and we're building most of the ISS

Siberian Hampster- the US invented the maglav technology used on the Japanese (and German) bullet trains, it's just we didn't use it because that would make the Auto companies that run our government lose money.
Also, the TGV uses regular train technology it's just really fast for one (that's why it's called Train Grande-Vitesse, or Train Big-Fast). Japanese trains use magnetic levitation
Bartemans- I like the idea of the ICJ as a wonder,

quote: Originally posted by JamesJKirk on 10-26-2000 11:57 AM You can't consider Athens a democracy really, it was just a bunch of rich white guys sitting around discussing what to do, what's even more necessary than universal sufferage for democracy in modern thinking is unversal civil liberties and equality before the law.

*trying to respond in a logical manner*
rights and liberties and equality before law existed in Athens, for rich and pour
just to whites of course, but because there weren't any black athenians, not for other reasons

[Chris Horscroft]

Even ignoring that the ancient greeks came up with the democratic state, and implemented it in a fashion centuries ahead of anywhere else, South Australia (which was then a self-governing colony) was the first "country" in the world to grant all women suffrage. New Zealand (which is still a country) followed 6 years later. The United States of America was not first into the modern idea of extending voting rights towards universal suffrage, not by a long shot. I think Italy was one of the first, again, well ahead of the US.

The Magna Carta is a ground-breaking document every bit as important as the US Dec of Indep. Yes it deals mainly with king and nobility, but what it established was that the law was superior to the king, and that the king was required to respect certain rights - both those of nobles and commoners. This was in the early 1200s - no other nation produced similar statements for 500 years (to my knowledge). Without the Magna Carta, the principles underlying all "Rights of Man" documents would not have been established (IMHO). Recent experience would suggest that US Presidents may still consider themselves above the law (Nixon, Clinton). Maybe America needs a Magna Carta?

The UK abolished slavery in the 1820s and 1830s, and Royal Navy vessels were permanently stationed off African slave grounds to intercept and prevent slave-trading vessels crossing the Atlantic from at least the 1840s. As I recall, the US didn't do all that much about slavery (besides promoting it) for another 20 years.

There is very little basis for setting up Democracy/anti-slavery wonders as America-based!


[This message has been edited by Chris Horscroft (edited October 26, 2000).]

[ChaingKaiShek]

On the topic of The United States not allowing 'everyone' to vote up untill the 1950s, let us also not forget how the British have infringed upon the rights of the Scottish people long before the United States was even conceived

To sit there and respond to everything with "Well that may be true, but the Americans..." Does nothing except prove you have been set in an 'anti american' way of thinking.

Your country has had its time to inflict wounds upon the surface of this world, and now it is our turn. I only hope I live long enough to see the day that "Great" Britian is nothing more than an American Provinence.

The entire point is, its a game.. It isen't going to be exact (Although its kinda nice when it is). If you want to play History, then either design your own game or read a book (Reading books afterall, it a much better activity..)

May your narrow-minded thinking lead you to your demise..

Anyways.. We will all just have to wait and see what kinda crappy new wonders Activision throws our way, I'm sure many of you out there will find some little thing to bicker about; to get offended over. I myself cannot wait for the game.

Personally I think that the "American" culture should not be able to be chosen, you should be the British first, and then maybe a new discovery or wonder will cause the change to the Americans. Afterall, its rather cheesy to pick the Americans and have to start off at 4000b.c.

-CKS

[Big Dave]

quote: Originally posted by Chris Horscroft on 10-26-2000 09:02 PM There is very little basis for setting up Democracy/anti-slavery wonders as America-based!

The problem here is again a lack of historical research by Activision. Yes, the Emancipation Proclimation is from the U.S. But the American Civil War (ACW) was not fought over slavery, as is mistakenly taught in U.S. schools. It was fought over states rights. But since most U.S. citizens believe that the ACW was about slavery this makes the Emancipation Proclimation a U.S. wonder.
Respectfully,

------------------
Big Dave

My karma ran over my dogma.

[Adm.Naismith]

ChaingKaiShek, about of your opinion:

quote: To sit there and respond to everything with "Well that may be true, but the Americans..." Does nothing except prove you have been set in an 'anti american' way of thinking.

Sorry, I disagree. Lot of us have good opinion about U.S.A. people: why in neck every time we underline USA IS/WAS NOT the only true and good nation on earth, someone become so angry?

I think that whole world was, is and must will be more than only a nation (whatsoever) culture, language, habits, and so on.
As Civ game doesn't represent strongly enough, we are on a small planet more like in a small boat: better we learn to listen and respect the others, because I'm not so sure there will be any Unity Starship to save us to Chiron, Alpha centauri

------------------
Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[ChaingKaiShek]

I'm quite sure that alot of you out there are not at all anti-american, but please also do not think I am pushing that the United States is the best nation on the planet and we should rule over all because even though it may look like that a little, its not what I mean at all.

I simply only wished to point out that alot of people here are quick to point out the flaws in the US but seem to 'forget' that which their own nation has done.

I also believe that looking beyond race, place of birth,(Nation you are loyal to!) etc is going to be key in keeping the human race around (I do not believe that we are going to be magically swept away to heaven by the savior of man. More power to those who do, I wish I could share your faith.). When the end comes it will be Man that triggers it and Man that ends it.

This is getting far beyond the topic of the post, so before we get shoved into the off-topic area.

I'd like to see other wonders from other areas of the world, to tell you the truth I dont find many of the US modern wonders very... wonderful.. Quite boring infact. The entire world has accomplished many things, and it would be great if they would be seen as "Human" Wonders instead of "American, British, Dutch, Chinese, etc Wonders".

Anyways, Good day to you all.

Chaing

[red_jon]

I did not start the thread to create any anti-American feeling at all, just to bring up the point that the modern age seems to focus too much on the US.

Every nation on Earth has commited atrocities at some point or another, but it tended to be only the few in power who did it, not the citizens (for example, when the British used concentration camps in the Boer war in South Africa the people back home were horrified- this actually led to them voting for a different party).

This could be used in the game- the 'Age of Reason' in the original could be updated to more than one advance- man didn't change overnight with the discovery of one theory.

Plus, as well as the 'Emancipation Act' (or equivanlent) your government should have the option to stop slavery, before it is built (like the British did).

------------------
...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

[red_jon]

Oh, and there are still millions of slaves in the world today (23 million I think).

Perhaps the 'Emancipation Act' (or equivalent) should only stop slaves in republics and democracies (and future equivalents).

------------------
...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

[PRoy]

I think part of the reason various wonders have been chosen has been to partially explain the success of various civilizations at various stages of history.

It would be great if all of the more successful and influential civilizations who had a significant impact on history should be represented.

I would certainly include wonders related to Ancient China, Ancient Egypt, Classical Greece and Rome, Medieval Christian Europe, Medieval Muslim Middle East, Renaissance Italy, Spain and Holland, Industrial Age Britain, Germany and Japan, and Modern US and former USSR.

I think there might be others, but if someone is willing to take a step back and have a realistic view of influential civs, the list is not exhaustive. I'm not trying to sound mean, but I think there are some people who are delusional about their nation's impact on world history. I was galled by the fact that CTP included politically correct choices such as Mexico, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Brazil, Jamaica, probably due to American domestic market which includes people from those places.

So while I think the US might be slightly overrepresented in the modern era, I believe it is meant to be a reflection of American influence, particularly in the wake of European decline over the last century. Much as I like Europe, they have been eclipsed and will remain marginal if they hold onto their divisive ethnic conflicts. The US has eclipsed the individual nations of Europe in industrialism, technology, entertainment, etc. The only thing they have more than we do is socialism, and I say they can have it, because that keeps them down. They mask their out-dated thinking by being overpermissive with sex and drugs, while eshewing basic human freedoms such as expression, self-defense and due process under law.

America sucks, but not as bad as the rest of you turkeys.

Anyway, I didn't mean to rant, but I couldn't help feeling this thread is more sour grapes from people who are simply jealous of the US, and who wonder why we Americans aren't trying to be like you in terms of language, culture, etc.

By the way, my own heritage is French, but you don't see me complaining. While the French have had some impact with wine, cheese, art, ballet, etc., as well as figures like Charlemagne, Descartes and Napoleon who certainly had influence, I can't point to wonders uniquely influential about France. MAYBE Versailles, the Eiffel Tower, or the ill-fated Maginot, but even these are only significant for a brief time before being overshadowed by greater achievements elsewhere. I think Charlemagne had more influence for a longer time than anything from post-Renaissance France anyhow, with the possible exception of the Napoleonic Code.

So if I can put my own ethnic heritage in perspective, why don't the rest of you give it a try . .

[PRoy]

I'd also like to add that I can understand why this thread was started by a Brit. In just under a century, Britain has gone from top superpower in the wake of Victoria to third world has-been under Blair, out of a combination of various factors including arrogance and ineptitude, but culminating in socialism.

I hope this is instructive to all of you, or should I say, any Americans reading this. I hope the rest of the world continues down the socialist path, and that Americans try to hang on to free market capitalism and individualism, because that will keep America strong.

Which is not to say that things might be great under socialism at first. But after a little while, once it sets in that you aren't really rewarded for extra effort, fewer and fewer put in the extra effort that makes all the difference, until you end up looking more like former USSR with its lines for toilet paper.

I tend to think that many anti-American viewpoints are rooted in this arguement. Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too, including too many of my own fellow countrymen. But the lesson in life is that if you want something you have to do it yourself, hopefully without a government getting in your way or punishing you for succeeding. In our current election cycle, we face the choice once more, and from the look of it America is coming back to its senses, and choosing freedom over socialism!

Vote Bush/Cheney!

[XMon]

Hahahaha!!!! You had me going for a paragraph or two! Whether you're Patrick Roy, P.J. O'Rourke, Pat Robertson or the ghost of Benito Mussolini...please don't confuse fascism with capitalism. Your rhetoric is almost impeccable and I congratulate you on that, but you showed your hand too quickly. So how in the past eight years, has this nation steered away from capitalism towards socialism? Forget I asked...I don't want to hear the BS... This is getting too off-topic anyway.

On-topic...my limited understanding is that many of the acknowledged *great* Wonders are already being used by Civilization II and thus CTP can't use them. Personally I don't care too much for Wonders and would be happy to see them reduced in number. They basically exist to give a civ a boost over the others and if the game has too many Wonders then they just pretty much dilute that intended effect.

Proposed Wonders:
Carnival (Mardi Gras): +3 Happiness throughout all
your civ due to the presence of naked women and
debauchery (go Brazil!).
Patrice Lumumba University: Enables the discovery of
the International Terrorism advance and the
creation of Terrorist units (yay to the former
USSR).
Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior: abolishes the
possibility of Ecotopian governments (props to the
the French).
Baywatch: creation of a TV show that the origin country
refuses to watch, but the rest of the world laps up
up hungrily, resulting in a -10% production for all
civs except the one that builds the Wonder.
Mir Space Station: A 15% increase in Science for 25
turns then one dead tile appears in a foreign civ's
city radii per turn for 10 turns as the debris
falls to Earth (Yo, Russia).
Apartheid: Did that Emancipation Proclamation ruin your
plans? No problem! The civ that builds Apartheid
can start building slavers again and can even
build a new unit called the Death Squad!
Microsoft: The civ that builds this wonder receives
10% of the gold of all other civs and all foreign
civs have their productivity reduced by 20%. The
downside? The civ that creates this Wonder has
their regard reduced by 40% as all foreign civs
have a forum to discuss their dislikes of the host
civ.

All of the above is tongue in cheek and not to be taken seriously.

A vote for Bush/Chaney is akin to letting someone drink all of your beer, sleep with your wife and shoot your dog. Or is it drink with your wife, shoot all your beer and sleep with your dog? Whatever...think twice before voting for the Great Satan (George DubbaU) and his fascist cultist minions like Patrick Roy...

[KhanMan]

The whole concept of "Wonders" is that certain civs built certain achievements that are better than any other civs' achievements. For as long as these wonders have real world names, there will be dispairities, and there will be smaller less powerful countries complaining about being under-represented.

The point is, no one should base their national identitiy on getting their quota of wonders, and, with the ease of changing the names, why should we care which wonders of the world other people think were the most important?

"It...is...a...game."
-KhanMan

[Va-Toran]

Just a quick point about democracy. The ancient Greek and Roman Republics are represented by the Republic government. The modern democracy, as represented by the Statue of Liberty, a symbol of the USA, reflects modern democratic government, which is not just an American idea.

quote: Originally posted by Va-Toran on 10-28-2000 04:20 PM Just a quick point about democracy. The ancient Greek and Roman Republics are represented by the Republic government. The modern democracy, as represented by the Statue of Liberty, a symbol of the USA, reflects modern democratic government, which is not just an American idea.

since it's all about definitions, let's see Webster

Democracy Government by the people; a form of government, in which the supreme power is lodged in the hands of the people collectively, or in which the people exercise the powers of legislation. Such was the government of Athens.

Republic A commonwealth; a state in which the exercise of the sovereign power is lodged in representatives elected by the people. In modern usage, it differs from a democracy or democratic state, in which the people exercise the powers of sovereignty in person. Yet the democracies of Greece are often called republics


so, excluding the last phrase since we are talking about what the athenian democracy WAS and not how it is CALLED, you probably see where i'm going....

[PRoy]

quote: Originally posted by XMon on 10-27-2000 11:46 PM So how in the past eight years, has this nation steered away from capitalism towards socialism?

While the rest of your post was complete drivel, especially supposedly humorous praise of the Soviet Union, which is completely asinine, and no doubt the result of poor breeding and socialist indoctrination, you did ask this substantive question. Of course you were afraid of an answer because you and the whole world knows the answer . .

Did you ever wonder how the Republicans gained Congress in 1994? It is specifically because a Democrat President, Clinton, and his Democrat Congress attempted to nationalize 1/7 th of the economy, namely, the entire health sector. The Democratic Party has not fully recovered from their mistake, and thankfully the electorate has overall shown far more intellectual maturity than you'll ever muster.

If you love socialism so much, there is a whole world out there full of it. Don't wreck one of the few places where people are still relatively free to succeed.

Socialism is for people who never grow up. Be a man, and stand on your own two feet, dammit!

[PRoy]

Anyway, getting back to the original intent of the thread, there is a reason why American wonders dominate the modern era. For the last 200+ years, America has been a magnet for freedom-loving people all over, including some of the world's best talent, who want to get the most out of their talents without being as shackled as they would otherwise have been. The American melting pot is the best combination of all races and ethnicities, and despite some tensions, has been the best model for achieving national strength through diversity and competition.

So while America certainly didn't invent representative government, her system has been the premier model for all peoples seeking self-determination and freedom.

And it is her system that has led to technical innovation and productivity unmatched in human history, and will remain so as long as we cherish what we have inherited from previous generations.

If the choice were left to some perhaps well-meaning but short-sighted individuals, our national inheritance would be quickly squandered, leaving future generations to suffer.

If your mindset is "live fast, die young", then by all means, get it over with, and leave the rest of us who care for the future, whether we'll be here or not.

Socialism is for children. Grow up, already!