Canal in CTP2?

[Dida]

Can we build canals in ctp2? It will be a extremly cool featurem, by allowing us to build Canals and ships to move on rivers we can 'cut the distance in half'. (that's why they've got Suez and the Panama)

[Pyaray]

quote: Originally posted by Dida on 10-30-2000 06:51 PM Can we build canals in ctp2? It will be a extremly cool featurem, by allowing us to build Canals and ships to move on rivers we can 'cut the distance in half'. (that's why they've got Suez and the Panama)

Nope, sorry, not without using the cheat menu to just cut some ocean through the continents.

Pyaray

[Chris Horscroft]

Thanks Pyaray for the decisive answer! Pity it can't be done though, as this is a major annoyance stretching right back to the original civ. Do you know of any technical reason why it can't be done? If enough people agitate for it, could it be put into a future mod?

[Nsae Comp]

To make canlas is very important.
To all CTP2 programmers:
Pleas try to put it in to the game.

Because I made in every Civ game (when i played on the earth map) a city at Panama.

And all other Civ players I know, do that too.

I beg, you please try to give a terrerform option for canals into CTP2, than it would be a little step to a new generation of CIV games!

[Gedrin]

Well have no fear... There are a few SLIC coders out here drooling for CTPII. If it can be done via a cheat menu then I bet it can be done via SLIC... and if it can be done via SLIC... it will be done.
Muhahahaha

Gedrin

[Old Bear]

Canals would be great, but in most cases just put a city at the narrow and exit both sides. At this late date I don't think anything new or radical will be in . Perhaps Civ III or Empire of Earth has time to include something like this. Dida is to be congratulated for coming up with a truly new idea.

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The secret to life is-
there isn't any.

[Big Dave]

quote: Originally posted by Gedrin on 10-31-2000 11:37 AM Well have no fear... There are a few SLIC coders out here drooling for CTPII. If it can be done via a cheat menu then I bet it can be done via SLIC... and if it can be done via SLIC... it will be done. Muhahahaha Gedrin

So it will, once again, be up to the paying customers to incorporate a feature that has been asked about for years.

To me, the canals (while a very nice idea) are a minor feature. However CTP2 seems to be defined by what "minor" features have been left out at this point.

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Big Dave

My karma ran over my dogma.

[Pyaray]

Just a thought about this canal issue. Has anyone stopped to think how realistic it would be to build these canals that you're asking for? I mean each tile on the map, you're probably talking 100-200 miles. The Panama Canal isn't that big, and I'm certain what you all are meaning is to make multiple canal tiles to get boats to inland cities. From a reality standpoint, this isn't really practical. The Panama Canal is the largest ever built (this is from memory, don't kill me if I'm wrong), and it's only 51 miles, and took 40 years to build, and is one of the engineering marvels of the last 2 centuries. Don't get me wrong, I understand why you want it from a gameplay standpoint. I was just curious if anyone else had actually thought of it this way.

Pyaray

[Dida]

Panama Canal was built in mountainous area, in contract, the Grant Canal of China was built in the 7th Century on the Eastern China plain, which runs from HangChou in southeast China to Louyang and Chang'an in central China, linking the Yangtse and Yollow River and some other smaller river systems, stretching at least several hundred miles. And remember this was done in the 7th century when people don't have all those nice and powerful machineries to do the digging work. You might argue China was a super power at that time that not every Civ could be able to do that, but still, they did the work that is impossible according to your point of view.

[Pyaray]

Oh, OK, I hadn't heard of that canal before right now. Never mind then. I'll just leave it with, I don't have a good answer other than it's not in the game, and I'm sorry about that. But in the immortal words of Bart Simpson, "I didn't do it!"

Pyaray

[Chris Horscroft]

Pyaray, thanks for the reality check. I would think Panama and/or Suez should appear in wonders of the world lists - and from your post, it sounds like you'd agree. Nonetheless, a few further real-world points must be noted. Most ocean going vessels (up to modern times) have been readily capable of navigating major river systems, at least to some point. So reality would suggest that all ships, up to ships of the line, should be able to enter rivers in CTP. Canal systems have been built at various times, and have turned inland cities into significant ports. Rotterdam is a clear example, London is on a river, not the ocean, and the Great Lakes Waterway is surely a fairly good example too. Besides, the game doesn't stop at the end of the 20th century - what waterways will we build over the next thousand years?

I think most of us would want a canal system to cost enough to prevent it being used everywhere, and that would enable oceans to be connected across narrow land areas. In the original, with cities built next to each other, you could do this (poorly!). But far preferable would be the ability either to turn natural river into canal as a terrain improvement, and/or the ability to build 2 or 3 tile-length canals. This obviously expands on the "just build a city at the narrowest bit" idea! I would say canals of greater than that length are unrealistic - but see previous comment about when the game goes! Finally, the game is capable of turning land into water - it does so in response to global warming. It surely would not take too much effort for a patch to introduce:

1) Rivers can be navigated by early ships
2) Turn river into canal so as to allow large ships in
3) Build canal up to 3 tiles in length.

The last would allow players to work canals around existing rivers (which fits reality) as well as across narrow isthmuses (spelling?) like Panama and Suez.

I think most players would support such a feature - I'm sure this forum will tell you for certain!

[Dida]

Agree with Chris Horscroft's proposal, I believe it's fairly easy to add these features.
But I don't think we shall be allowed to build canal over a mountain.

[Pyaray]

quote: Originally posted by Chris Horscroft on 10-31-2000 05:22 PM It surely would not take too much effort for a patch to introduce:

It isn't really the game data that would be difficult to change, the difficulty is in changing the interface to make it accessable by the users. And making it so that adding that interface doesn't introduce a ton of new bugs. I really don't have any answers for any of you on this subject, other than it's not in the game.

Pyaray

[Chris Horscroft]

Pyaray - thanks again for staying with the thread. I understand that it is not possible to include canals in the release at this late stage, and that really doesn't worry me, so long as the fan feedback saying "Please include canals" is heard, and (hopefully) acted on for the updates/patches/whatever that will no doubt follow release.

I will buy CTPII anyway, without canals, but look forward to more than 8 civs, canals, etc upgrades in future.

Presumably you guys maintain a list of desired revisions and upgrades? If so, please add waterways!

(And Dida is right - there should be limits to the terrain types you can canal through)

[Dida]

Isn't there a tile improvment that you can build call "Terrain" or something like that. Which becomes available after you've discoverrf Conservation. If we can change a plain into jungles, why not a plain into ocean or river?
Can Activision do some change to the code so that
we can change land tile into ocean tile, and also that ships can move on rivers? Just to make it more realistic (I think a battleship cannot engage in battle if in a narrow river)

[Gedrin]

Well I have not tried it but looking over the terrain.txt in CTPI I would think changing a land tile to TERRAIN_WATER_BEACH would work.

The trouble is that if you have a setup like this:

O=Ocean; B/b=Beach; L/l=Land



OOOOO     OOOOO

BBbBB  -> BBbBB

LlllL  -> LBBBL

LLLLL     LLLLL

Then terraforming the three 'l' to 'B' must also cause 'b' to become 'O'. This could likely be SLICed in on the trigger: special.buildtransform but that triggers when Xform starts, not finishes... so if you make it ocean it will look goofy for a few turns... minor point but there never-the-less.

In order to do this every tile adjacent to the one being Xformed must be checked. If is is a beach and no tile adjacent to it (except of course the one we are currently terraforming) is a land then make it an ocean.

I do think this could be done however no one has yet.

Gedrin

[This message has been edited by Gedrin (edited October 31, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Gedrin (edited October 31, 2000).]

quote: Originally posted by Gedrin on 10-31-2000 12:35 PM I do think this could be done however no one has yet.

i can see it now....

THE CTP2 CREATION FORUM: TO BOLDLY MODIFY WHAT NOONE ELSE HAS MODIFIED BEFORE

[Grumbold]

There is huge scope for fun with water related engineering projects if a Civ style game wanted to get involved in that level of detail. Many countries have widened rivers and dredged harbours to keep ports open or create ports where the natural terrain was not ideal. Rivers have had their courses artificially altered and dams have created massive lakes. Flood control systems and dykes keep land below sea level protected from flooding. One day I hope a civ game takes all of these into account (personally I see all of them as much simpler engineering feats than creating hill and mountain ranges, albeit harder to program) because the civil side of maintaining and expanding a civilisation is of more interest to me than the pure military aspect.

[Maccabee2]

What an original idea! I can only hope that it might be included in some future patch, or I'll become a supplicant to the all-powerful SLIC programming players. (A settler looks in his backpack for some incense and some bribe money.)

[Gedrin]

So a breif look at terrain.txt shows that all water tiles inlcude somthing like this:

ENV_CANAL_TUNNEL {
ENV_MOVEMENT 10
ENV_FREIGHT 10
ENV_MATERIALS 1200
ENV_TIME 2
ENV_ADVANCE ADVANCE_SEA_COLONIES
}

Has anyone ever tried making such a def'n for land tiles? The reason I ask is I was startled at the name. CANAL_TUNNEL. Which is it? Or it both?

I'd love to try it but alas I have recently moved and not completely set up my computer. It may be possible that this tile improvement simply allows anthing to move along it. When placed on a land tile it may even confer the same production bonuses as rivers.
And it could of course not be added to mountains... hills maybe and really expensive but not mountains.

Gedrin

[Biddles]

Biddles retreats into his own fantasy world.

They're just trying to surprise us, they're just trying to surprise us, they're just trying to surprise us.

Aaarggh!

I SEE DEAD PEOPLE!

Psychologists Note: It should be noted that when Biddles say's "I SEE DEAD PEOPLE" he is probably planing revenge on whoever cut canals from the game.

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Looks like it's back to "canal Cities"


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- Biddles

"Now that our life-support systems are utilising the new Windows 2027 OS, we don't have to worry about anythi......."
Mars Colonizer Mission

[Gedrin]

Well PC is up and running again and nope...

adding ENV_CANAL_TUNNEL to land does nothing.

Gedrin