CTP2 must be better than CTP

Dida · October 31, 2000, 14:05

I was very disappointed to know that there is no canals in the game.

lev · October 31, 2000, 18:55

> No more than 8 Civs

Never played with more than that, nor wanted to.

> No Hotseat

Would be nice, but I never used that, either.

> No PBEM

Same as above

> No Canals

For me, the one-square city-as-canal has always seemed enough.

> Rumors of a lot of bugs with no time left
> before the release date to fix.

Unfortunately, this is pretty standard for game software. It has such a shorter shelf-life than other kinds of software, that there is great pressure to keep it moving.

In all, my impression is that Activision is releasing a game with a lot of features people asked for, but without some features that a few people wanted.

Sounds good enough to me!

Tical_2000 · October 31, 2000, 20:21

To correct my ignorant friend above,

SOME people did not want more than 8 civs. SOME people did not want canals. SOME people did not want multiplayer support. The fact is that over 1000 posts were made on this very site requesting/discussing that these changes be made in CTP2. So don't ever speak for the majority again unless you have your facts straight.

October 31, 2000, 23:53

Mark or Dan, can you or would comment on the "over 1000 post for MP, canals, ect. Was it over 1000 different people or a few hundred re-posting it over and over.

The canals would be nice but are not a big deal to me.

I do not play MP, and I have no interest in playing MP., But I hope they will make an MP patch for the player who want it.

With the much larger cities I believe that more than 8 to 12 civs, everthing is going to be crowded very fast unless we have some very large maps. In CTP the cities were only two tile from city center. In CTP 2 they will be four tiles from city center. Again in CTP city center to city center five tiles. In No. 2 nine tiles. North to south two cities in CTP ten tiles. No.2 eighteen tiles. Now if you don't mind an AI civs building a city three tiles from your city center no problem. I do mine.

I will buy the game as soon as it is release.

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[This message has been edited by joseph1944 (edited October 31, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by joseph1944 (edited October 31, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by joseph1944 (edited October 31, 2000).]

jbs · November 1, 2000, 01:28

Activision is coming out with CTP2 and want and expects us to spend our hard earned money to buy the game. Many positive things were released that had me waiting in anticipation and then the negatives started rolling in.
No more than 8 Civs
No Hotseat
No PBEM
No Canals
Rumors of a lot of bugs with no time left before the release date to fix.

Now it is quite obvious to me that Activision did not listen to the Civ community. How many times even with the original CTP was more than 8 Civs requested. The CTP patch included hotseat and yet they don't even have something as basic as that in the initial game. If the basic things like hotseat and more than 8 Civs don't work, what does that tell you about the quality of the game. It tells me that Activision knows the game has bugs and is trying to hid them. More than 8 Civs will stress the game, having HOTSEAT stressed the game. The fact that they are not present means that the game does not work when stressed. Why? If I were a betting man, I would say that they were initially incluced, but had bugs. So instead of fixing the bugs, they just dropped the features. That means the bugs are still there, they just don't show up as often so Activision hopes they can sneak it past us poor dumb consumers.

What separates a great game from a mediocre game? I believe it is in the attention to detail and the simply things. All the great games and the medocre games have great potential. However, the great games pay attention to the simply things and not just the big areas like diplomacy. So what if CTP2 has a great diplomacy if the simple things that make a great game are missing or broken. Should I buy CTP2 just because it has a great diplomacy. IMO, that is a bug fix and should be given away free or at most a $20 add-on to CTP1. I would pay $20 for a better diplomacy add-on for CTP1, but I will not pay $50 for another CTP1 with great diplomacy. Yes the reviews all sound great and the great new features have us all salvitating at the bit that we can't wait to buy the game bugs or no bugs. Remember the hype before CTP1. How we all couldn't wait. How all the new special units and the graphics and the other great features were going make this the best Civ game ever. Then remeber how disappointed and frustrated and made when the simply things didn't work. How we all swore on our Mother's grave that we wouldn't buy another broken game from Activision. That we wouldn't be played for suckers again. Now the cycle begins again. Great new features, going to be the best Civ game ever. I can not wait to buy this game who cares about a few bugs. Then the rumors that simply things like more than 8 Civs don't work, no canals, no hotseat no PBEM. Some rumors of bugs that of course Activision denies. Than the Christmas release date that the bean counters want so bad. Again the decision makers at Activision say to the developers. Yes we understand the game isn't ready and it has problems, but we have to make the Christmas relase date. The public are suckers they will buy the game problems or no problems so why should be expend the extra effort and delay the Christmas release date to actually put out a quality product. People will buy the game low quality or not and we get our money and that's all we care about. And besides we can always fix it with a patch. Well I will NOT be a sucker again. I will not buy the game with bugs. I will not buy the game with no Hotseat. I will not buy the game without the ability to play more than 8 Civs. I am still content with playing CTP with the various mods, and am still working on my own. I have no incentive to buy another game from Activision that has great potential but is broken. Good luck to whomever decides to actually buy the released game. May the Civ gaming force be with you and may your frustration and disappointment level be low.

samurai · November 1, 2000, 01:32

To anyone writing letters so long as jbs. Please try to cut them down or make them look more interesting.
Get uninterested just looking at them

November 1, 2000, 01:46

i was trying to read this extra long post when i noticed this

quote:

Originally posted by jbs on 10-31-2000 12:28 PM
IMO, that is a bug fix and should be given away free or at most a $20 add-on to CTP1.

a price between 0-20$ when the whole price is 40$? for a bug fix?

November 1, 2000, 02:48

quote:

Originally posted by joseph1944 on 10-31-2000 10:53 PM
Mark or Dan, can you or would comment on the "over 1000 post for MP, canals, ect. Was it over 1000 different people or a few hundred re-posting it over and over.

i have no clue to what he is referring to....

[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited November 01, 2000).]

MidKnight Lament · November 1, 2000, 09:47

I can't believe I managed to read all of that without hitting the "back" button on my browser. I'm proud of myself.

Having read through it all I'll just say, "catchya round".

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- MKL
"And of course Henry The Horse dances the waltz!"
Shameless Plug: http://www.poetic-license.org celebrates it's First Birthday! All welcome.

lev · November 1, 2000, 12:08

I stand corrected. Let me restate:

In all, my impression is that Activision is releasing a game with a lot of features people asked for, but without some features that a few VERY LOUD people wanted.

And to correct my rather uncivil acquaintance,

> So don't ever speak for the majority again unless
> you have your facts straight.

I did not speak for any majority, I clearly said it was merely my impression.

Flandrien · November 1, 2000, 12:27

PBEM is the only reason why I play CTP.
Yet, I do not consider myself to be loud.

lev · November 1, 2000, 12:42

Sorry, Tical's post set me off a bit. I apologize for snapping back.

Vocal, not loud.

red_jon · November 1, 2000, 15:16

I wish they would implement a hotseat function.

I love playing against friends on the same computer. I hope hotseat is on a patch soon after the games release.

But what is the point in them not including it? They didn't in CTP1 and then released apatch including it- why do this with CTP2? Why not include hotseat in the first place?

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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

Pyaray · November 1, 2000, 17:35

quote:

Originally posted by red_jon on 11-01-2000 02:16 PM
But what is the point in them not including it? They didn't in CTP1 and then released apatch including it- why do this with CTP2? Why not include hotseat in the first place?

I have been avoiding this topic for a while now. But it seems to be something that's extremely important to some of you, so I guess I'll address it, but only a little bit.

The reason it was cut, and yes it was cut recently, was because of insurmountable bugs. There were a lot of really horrendous bugs that quite frankly we didn't know how to fix in the amount of time we have. We would rather ship a really solid good game than add more features that make it not solid, and buggy. So we have chosen to focus our energy on making what we are shipping as good as we possibly can, and anything we couldn't do "right" we didn't do at all. Will we be doing a patch for this game? I don't know. Would we like this feature in the game? Yes, we would. But frankly I don't know if it will happen or not. It was a difficult decision to make (I wasn't the one who made it, but everyone was involved to some degree), but the decision we made was what we thought was best for the game as a whole. Once again I'm sorry that this disappoints so many of you, but this is not a trivial spend an hour to implement it kind of feature. It is actually a very difficult to implement feature. I hope you all understand.

Pyaray

Paulypav · November 1, 2000, 17:42

Thanks Pyaray, for once again giving us insight into the minds of Activision. I for one, would rather a solid game without PBEM and Hotseat, then to have PBEM and Hotseat and have it cause all kinds of problems. Apparently, this is a much more difficult to implement feature than many of us understand. We have all made the assumption that because it was done for CTP, albeit as a patch, that it could easily be done for CTPII. I'm sure those of us looking for Hotseat and PBEM will hope for a patch, if possible.

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"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur

red_jon · November 1, 2000, 17:46

OK, I get it now

I would rather have a bug-free game than hotseat, it just seems a shame.

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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

Flandrien · November 1, 2000, 18:50

What ?
No PBEM patch ???

Now I am really depressed.

Paul · November 1, 2000, 18:52

I would rather have a bug-free game with hot-seat/pbem. These multiplayer options are important for turn-based strategy games and in my opinion are worth delaying the release if they can't be fixed before the scheduled release date.

However, if Activision decides not to put these options in the release version they should definately be added in a patch.

Pyaray · November 1, 2000, 19:36

quote:

Originally posted by Maestro on 11-01-2000 05:50 PM
No PBEM patch ???

I didn't say that. I said that I don't know, and it's not currently planned. That doesn't mean no, and it certainly doesn't mean yes. It just means we (including myself) have to wait and see what happens.

Pyaray

Monkey · November 1, 2000, 21:42

quote:

Originally posted by Pyaray on 11-01-2000 06:36 PM
I didn't say that. I said that I don't know, and it's not currently planned. That doesn't mean no, and it certainly doesn't mean yes. It just means we (including myself) have to wait and see what happens.

Pyaray

I guess the final decision about patching the game really depends on whether the game sells well huh? Fair enough, after all the bottom line is that game companies are here to make money.

BTW the decision to cut PBEM/hotseat due to bugs is a good one. It is better to have a few good implemented features rather than many badly implemented ones. I've kept that generally rule in my software engineering efforts myself.

Mike the Nuke · November 1, 2000, 22:27

I agree with JB. I don't care if the majority or minority desires some of these features. Unfortunately, I do not know for sure what the abbreviation PBEM stands for. I probably never used it. I did play the CTP I game over the internet several times, but enjoyed the game MOST under the 'HOTSEAT' mode. In this mode, my wife (who never thought she would ever play a CIV game who then found out she enjoyued it thoroughly) and my kids (same deal) and myself played each other along with friends and some AI's on the same computer! It was the ONLY reason we kept playing the game. If CTP II will not have this function and/or it will not be patched in very soon after its release, then you can take this game and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. In response to the designer expert who states how tough it is to do these deals I, with all respect, say "ITS YOUR JOB, quit making excuses. I wish I could do it, but I don't know how. I operated Nuclear Power Plants aboard the USS Enterprise. It wasn't always easy, but we had to make it work, no excuses. The first CTP was a great game. It needed some improvements and some unit value corrections (everyone has their own opinions) but deleting options that existed in the first game from the second game because its 'too hard' is nothing but a poor excuse. I WILL NOT BUY THE GAME (CTP II) AT ANY PRICED UNTIL THESE OPTIONS ARE INCLUDED AND BUGS FIXED, ETC. I WILL NOT RECOMMEND THE GAME TO ANYONE, BUT I WILL CONTINUE TO RECEOMMEND CTP I TO ALL MY FRIENDS THAT ENJOY THESE CIV GAMES. WHAT A DISSAPPOINTMENT! WE'VE (MY FAMILY) BEEN COUNTING THE DAYS FOR THE ARRIVAL OF THE NEW AND IMPROVED CTP-II, NOW IT APPEARS TO BE NOTHING WORTH WAITING FOR.

November 1, 2000, 22:36

i'm sorry, are you saying that you wont buy ctp2 cause it doesnt have a feature that you dont know what it is and will never use it??

btw, pbem means "play by e-mail"

Kautilya · November 1, 2000, 23:45

Um Mark obviously you didn't read past the second line of Mike's post. He was talking about hotseat with which he plays CTP with his family.

I personally haven't played either on PBEM or hotseat. For me the biggest consideration is a strong AI for single player. However I have been told that PBEM is a good way to play multiplayer so that might be a consideration when considering future replay value. It appears that there are a lot of people for whom PBEM is very important so I think that Activision should announce early that a PBEM patch will be on the way if they don't want to lose too many sales.

Dogberry · November 2, 2000, 01:52

I hope you all remember the suggestion lists that seemed to have been so painstakingly put together in this site and forwarded to Activision by this site, some of the suggestions had even appeared for the original CTP. What the hell does Activision do with them?! No PBEM, no hotseat, damn, NO WONDER, they are in CTP, why would people suggest it again?! I don't know about you, but multiplaying a civ game online realtime with friends is both time-consuming and a drag. PBEM is the way to go for me.

A 100 aussie dollar is a lot of money, I will definitely wait for the review this time around.

Cheers,

Dogberry.

MidKnight Lament · November 2, 2000, 02:45

Thanks for letting us know, Pyaray (and for coming back here despite all the abuse).

You indicated that PBEM had a lot of bugs, and that's why it couldn't be included.... Is the same true for Hotseat?

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- MKL
"And of course Henry The Horse dances the waltz!"
Shameless Plug: http://www.poetic-license.org celebrates it's First Birthday! All welcome.

MadWoodster · November 2, 2000, 08:18

If alot of people buy the game, then Activision may decide there is no point in releasing a patch as they won't get any more sales, however, if everyone who wants more features doesn't buy the game, then Activision may realise how much money they could make by releasing a patch to add the particular features.
Incidently I don't care about PBEM or Hotseat and just want a fully-working single player game.

Grumbold · November 2, 2000, 10:55

A fully working 1 player game with strong AI opponents is certainly my primary requirement. Having said that, it is certainly options like PBEM and 9+ civilisations which will keep the game alive by creating new challenges once the mechanics are familiar. No AI can be as cunning, malicious (or sometimes, stupid) as a whole bunch of real people. I will buy the game without those options and hope for future patches confident that AI loopholes can always be improved by SLIC mad Apolytoners even if Activision ignore them. Should it be full of fancy options but fatally bugged then my money will stay firmly in my pocket.

hexagonian · November 2, 2000, 12:43

Can't say that I am totally happy about this...

But I do have to agree that it would be better if the game was released as bug-free as possible. It really does not make any sense to have the game released with PBEM/Hotseat and then have those games crash repeatedly because of bugs related to those issues. Imagine the uproar that would cause...

My assumption was based on the fact that Activision was able to address PBEM/Hotseat in CTP1, so it seemed to me that those features were a foregone conclusion in CTP2 and would of been implemented right from the start. And as much as I want a perfect game, the truth is that no game will give me every feature that I want. It will be funny to see when CIV3 is getting close to release, how many people will gripe because their 'pet' idea is not included - you can be assured this will happen too.

I still am looking forward to CTP2. Even if PBEM/Hotseat was not included, nor planned in the future, I would still get the game because I do enjoy single-play (CTP1 MedMod modified).

And if it is unbalanced, I have confidence in Wes/Nordicus and others who frequent this site to fix it!!

Flandrien · November 2, 2000, 12:53

I too will buy the game, and wait for a PBEM patch.
If there is one thing that I learned from PBEM, it is to be patient.

jbs · November 2, 2000, 14:09

I am senior software engineer, and I will be happy to send anyone my resume who does not believe that is my job. Just send me your e-mail address and I will send you a copy. I have written and released many applications and tools. The hardest part in fixing a bug is understanding what is causing it. I have been in the same position as Activision. I have an application that has a bug that I do not know what causes it. All I do know is that I only encounter that bug when I do X feature. So I remove that feature and release that tool. I have done this a few times to met a deadline. The application works fine for the initial data set, but once the customer starts stressing the tool with more data or repetitive use, that same unknown bug appears. That has happened to me every single time! If I have to release an application I always tell (I learned after my first experience) the customer what bug I could not correct so the customer is aware of potential problems and to report this immediately so I have additional data that I can use to correct the problem. If Activision knew exactly what was causing the bugs, then fixing them should not be hard. But if you are not sure, then deleting a feature does not guarantee that the bug is fixed and in my experience has never fixed it. Because if I was that sure of what was causing the bug I could fix it. So Activision deleting a feature doesn't fix a bug, it just makes it occur less often because you are removing stress from the program, but if the customer stresses it in some other way (lets say modification) then those bugs are likely to occur. And of course Activision will not support any modifications. So everyone who loves the modification feature has to worry about these unknown bugs.