Column #139; By St. Swithin

[Slax]

Daniel - I think you're right. I would explain it by saying it is due to distance to the city.

St. S. - There is no mention of the city tile being automatically worked. Is it? If it is, then ICS is alive and well, while if it works as you have written, but with the city tile included in the radius the same as any other tile, then ICS is dead.

Please let ICS be dead.

My calcs, if city tile is not auto-worked, assuming 1 resource per tile,

1 6 pop city = 9 resources
6 1 pop cities = 5.83 resources (tightly packed cities)

But if city tile is auto-worked:
6 1 pop cities = 10.83 resources

[This message has been edited by Slax (edited November 04, 2000).]

[Smeagol]

Daniel: But aren't there 16 squares in the 2nd ring? So each worker would then bring in 1 1/3 tiles worth of resources (in the 2nd ring). That is still of course less than the 1 1/2 from the 1st ring.

Here is the picture:

BBBBB
BAAAB
BAAAB
BAAAB
BBBBB

A= first ring, which includes the city tile itself in the middle

B= second ring

This is the way I see it unless those corner tiles for the B ring are not included.
[This message has been edited by Smeagol (edited November 04, 2000).]

[Daniel Frappier]

Slax - You are right, i didn't noticed at first that there was no mentionned about the city tile, i hope it's not only because he forgot to mentionned it. I hope they really did something about ICS.

[Smeagol]

Slax:

Quote from article:

"The amount of food, commerce, and production is totalled from the 9 tiles under the city's influence - the one the city's sitting on, and the 8 surrounding it."

...From that it does sound like ICS is dead.

[Slax]

This new ring configuration differs from the previous explanation at the corners.

[Daniel Frappier]

Smeagol,

You might have the explanation, it would means that the city radius is now a perfect sqare as opposed to Civ II and CTP I.

[Smeagol]

Slax:

That was not an "explanation", merely a theory. Are you sure the corners are not included? How do you know?

[Slax]

quote: Originally posted by Smeagol on 11-04-2000 03:07 PM Slax: Quote from article: "The amount of food, commerce, and production is totalled from the 9 tiles under the city's influence - the one the city's sitting on, and the 8 surrounding it." ...From that it does sound like ICS is dead.

The workers still might only work the surrounding tiles, while the city tile is only included in the total. I wish she had given an example total number of resources collected (or stated it clearer). Is she multiplying 1/6 by 9 or 8 in a 1 pop city? ie , is it tot = 1 + 1/6 * 8, or tot = 1/6 * 9 ?

[Slax]

quote: Originally posted by Smeagol on 11-04-2000 03:11 PM Slax: That was not an "explanation", merely a theory. Are you sure the corners are not included? How do you know?

When I said 'explanation' I meant the post made a while back about this topic, not your post. I guess it all depends on what "a ring around a ring" means. I thought it was the old-style radius, after pop = 6, in the screen shots. I'll have to look again.

[This message has been edited by Slax (edited November 04, 2000).]

[Smeagol]

Slax:

I see what you are saying. I too hope that ICS is dead, so I guess we'll wait and hear from Activision on this. Then hopefully we can get a definitive answer on what constitutes the 2nd ring (12 or 16 tiles) and if the city tile generates resources separately from the surrounding 8 tiles.

[Slax]

According to the latest screen shots, the pattern is:

UCCCCCU
CCBBBCC
CBAAABC
CBAAABC
CBAAABC
CCBBBCC
UCCCCCU

where
A = pop 1- 6
B = pop 7 - (17,18, or 19)
C = pop (18,19,or 20) - (40-50?)
U = placeholder

we also were told that there is another level, likely to the border radius (one more ring).

In the screen shots I found cities as large as pop = 17 with the type B radius. I found a city with pop=20 had a type C radius so, the threshold, in these screenshots, was 18,19, or 20.
[This message has been edited by Slax (edited November 04, 2000).]

[Slax]

It seems to me that no auto-worker in the city makes the most sense. Compare the old way to the new way, with no auto-worker:
using 1 tile = 1 resource

Old way:
pop=1 => 2 res
pop=2 => 3 res

New Way:
pop=1 => 1*1/6*9 = 1.5 res
pop=2 => 2*1/6*9 = 3.0 res

So the growth rate is similar (actually higher) comparing the old way to new way using one city.

[Smeagol]

Slax:

Can you give me a link to that screenshot?

Regarding the workers further away being less productive, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing anyway. It'll at least keep the game slightly more balanced between huge and smaller empires, and it is a reasonable idea as well (after all, the further away the resources are, the longer it takes to get them to the city.)

Our first "celebrity" column comes from Activision's very own Winnie Lee, aka St. Swithin, who talks about -- what else? -- CTPII in an article entitled "Your Cities And You".

Comments/questions welcomed here, or you may choose to contact the author directly.

----------------
Dan; Apolyton CS

[Smeagol]

I think this sounds like an excellent idea... you can still decide with specialists which resources to focus on but the micromanagement is reduced considerably. Another step in the right direction for CTP2!

[Daniel Frappier]

That's what i understood from the previous explanations they gave but i am surprise to see that worker 7 gives you only 1/12 of the radius B or 1 tile while each worker in radius A is working on 1 1/2 tile. So it would means that workers past the 6th would be less productive ?

Can you answer St. SWithin.

[Slax]

They are in the Gamespot preview. See the CTPII page for the link.

[MidKnight Lament]

Anyway, to get back to what you were originally talking about, I think that workers in the outer rings are just as productive as the ones in the inner ring. (Assuming that the second ring has 12 workable squares).

Btw, did no one else notice this?

quote: Do you need to build some catapults in a hurry to defend your border?

Catapults are back!?!

Thanks for the article, Winnie.

------------------
- MKL
"And of course Henry The Horse dances the waltz!"
Shameless Plug: http://www.poetic-license.org .............All welcome.

[Atahualpa]

I guess, its the city tile plus the eigth surrounding tiles. ICS is not dead!

Ata

[Father Beast]

Uh, was there a mistake in the "about the author" thing at the bottom of the article? it looks a lot like mine from the previous week.

[Drakenred]

the way I understand it, (granted this may be pure confusion on my part, due to the articals ive seen from difent sources) is that their are several things that limmit ICS in the game

1) each City aparently has an Exclusion zone For example a City size of 1-6 will have a footprint like this, (C= CITY, A= ring of the first 6 workers, X= Squares where a new city canot be founded( again asuming a size 1-6 city), Y being where a NEW city can be placed) granted, this will still alow you to place a citys close to eachouter, or

YYYYYYY
YXXXXXY
YXAAAXY
YXACAXY
YXAAAXY
YXXXXXY
YYYSYYY<<
for example. for this kind of configuration
YYYYYYY
YXXXXXY
YXAAAXY
YXACAXY
YXAAAXY
YXaaaXY
YXacaXY
YXaaaXY
YXXXXXY
YYYYYYY

Resulting in a configureation simular to


(the (aca)tiles are tiles that belong to the new city on the block)

At best if this is the way the system works, you get a 9:1 City ratio,

Asuming a i misunderstood about the "no city buffer"(ie you can plant a City on any tile not curently being worked, but you canot place a city on a tile being worked)

your first City:
AAA
ACA
AAA

your second City

AAAaa
ACAca
AAAaa

your 4th city:

www
wcw
AAAaa
ACAca
AAAaa

your 5th City
wwwxx
wcwcx
AAAaa
ACAca
AAAaa

your 6th City

wwwxx
wcwcx
AAAaa
ACAca
AAAaa
vcv
vvv

your 7th:
wwwxx
wcwcx
AAAaa
ACAca
AAAaa
hcvcv
hhvvv

you have a ratio of about 35 tiles to 7 cities, or at best, a roughly a 1-4 ratio.

2)aparently, you are now also limited by a combination of Discoveries, and Goverment forms to the max mumber of citys you can keep under controll, once you go over your curent "max city count" all of your cities have a chance to go into full rebelion, based on your total number of cities,(Posibly this is kind of like having a ticking AI entity wonder in each city with the odds of an individual city going off being equal to the # of citys over the cap)


[This message has been edited by Drakenred (edited November 05, 2000).]

[WesW]

If I had to guess, I would say that Winnie mis-spoke when she said one-twelth of the second ring's resources. I would guess that the actual figure is one-eighth, which would mean that second-ring workers are just as productive as first-ring workers.

What I want a discussion about is when is it most effective to place tile improvements. If you start placing them when the city only has two or three workers, then half their effect, or more, is not being used. This question becomes more pressing when you are talking about the subsequent rings.

[Slax]

Drakenred - We were told that cities must be two spaces apart. Why say there is no buffer?

[This message has been edited by Slax (edited November 05, 2000).]

[Atahualpa]

WesW: I am pretty damn sure its 12 tiles.

-BBB-
BAAAB
BACAB
BAAAB
-BBB-

Just look at the radius=2 sight of a warrior. It covers the same 20 squares.
For radius=3 it will look like:

-CCCCC-
CCBBBCC
CBAAABC
CBACABC
CBAAABC
CCBBBCC
-CCCCC-

A covers 8 tiles
B covers 12 tiles
C covers 24 tiles

Altogether we have then 44 tiles that a city may cover.
IF the city tile itself is treated specially (not counting as part of Ring A).

Ata
[This message has been edited by Atahualpa (edited November 06, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Atahualpa (edited November 06, 2000).]

[Paulypav]

Ata, I've got agree with you. I think the second ring is definitely 12 squares. Nice analogy to the sight of a warrior. Makes sense to me.

I'm not sure there's a difference in productivity of workers. Each worker works the "average tile" for a ring. The total resources of the ring are added up and divided by the number of squares in the ring to get an average number of resources per square. Each time you add another worker that worker adds the resources of an average square to your ring. That is, if I understand the way workers are being placed. It also depends on whether it will take the city 12 workers to move to the next ring (it takes 6 workers to work the 8 squares in the first ring).

It definitely seems to me that it would make sense to only add tile improvements in a ring that is being fully worked. Otherwise, you would not be getting the full effects of the improvement.

------------------
"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur

[Lord Jack]

My initial thought on this new method is: What if you have a desert tile in your city radius that you would just as soon ignore? Why do I need to spend 1/9 of my manpower resources working a tile with no real value? Shouldn't I be able to focus my resources on the more fertile tiles around?
[This message has been edited by Lord Jack (edited November 06, 2000).]

[MWatts]

Atahualpa do you mean the maximus tiles a city will control is 24? Or did I misunderstand you?
Because I do be leave Activision said a cities sphere influence would go out 4 tiles not 3.
Sorry if I am wrong about this.

[Paulypav]

MWatts, under Ata's diagram the city would control 44 squares, 24 in the outer ring. If it actually is one more ring that would be an additional 32 squares for a total of 76 squares, but this seems a little high.

------------------
"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur

[St Swithin]

OK, first ring has 8 tiles, 9 including the city tile. Don't think of it as 1 worker working 1 tile. Each "worker" represents 10.000 (ten thousand) people. So, you send your 70.000 people out to the fields to work. They bring back 100% of the resources from the 8 tiles around the city, while the city collects the resources from its own tile. When the city radius grows, it gets an additional 12 tiles. So yes, the 8th worker only gets 1/12 of the resources from that area, but there are a lot more (well, about 50%) resources on 12 tiles than on 8.

Now, ICS was something that concerned us a great deal, so it was at the forefront when we designed this system. Let's say you take a worker off the land and make him a Farmer instead. You have increased the city's food, but decreased the city's production and commerce. It's all proportional, so you can try to maximise each resource separately, but it's pretty hard to get a lot farther ahead in any of the resources because you're quickly limited by one or the other (so if you have lots of food, your city will take forEVER to build something, or if you have a pile of gold coming from the city, you'll have people starving left and right). Also, don't forget that you can have Entertainers and Scientists, both of whom do not contribute to the city's resource collection, but who both must be paid wages and rations.

Father Beast, I think that the "about the author" was a legacy bug

Ralf S - got your email, I'm answering it here because it's a good question:

Regarding tile improvements, you can still build Roads, Farms, and mines using Public Works. The AI leader reserves a specific amount of production for use by each Mayor. The AI uses mayors to govern its cities; the priority of each mayor depends on the AI leader's personality. The AI will build more farms around cities whose growth is slower than larger cities. It will build mines if it is trying to build a lot of units or wonders. It will build roads between its cities, especially if it is more war-like. The AI reassesses its entire situation on every turn, especially when it is engaged in some kind of diplomatic action. Diplomacy is very important in CTP2. For example, if you have a permanent alliance with an AI leader, you are allowed to move your units through his land with no repercussions (i.e. he won't ask you to leave because you're mates). However, it is more difficult to achieve an alliance, since the AI will remember all the mean things you have done to him, as well as mean things you may have done to other leaders.

Anyway, I'm way off on a tangent. So I hope I didn't miss any questions about cities.

[Drakenred]

quote: Originally posted by St Swithin on 11-06-2000 11:14 PM Now, ICS was something that concerned us a great deal, so it was at the forefront when we designed this system. Let's say you take a worker off the land and make him a Farmer instead. You have increased the city's food, but decreased the city's production and commerce. It's all proportional, so you can try to maximise each resource separately, but it's pretty hard to get a lot farther ahead in any of the resources because you're quickly limited by one or the other (so if you have lots of food, your city will take forEVER to build something, or if you have a pile of gold coming from the city, you'll have people starving left and right). Also, don't forget that you can have Entertainers and Scientists, both of whom do not contribute to the city's resource collection, but who both must be paid wages and rations. Anyway, I'm way off on a tangent. So I hope I didn't miss any questions about cities.

That was an understatment!

Is it just me, or did he anser the Question about ICS by changing the subject?

Ok Question

If i have a Size one city, and Take that individual OFF of being a worker and make him a Entertainment specialist,(who IS NOT workig any of the 8 surounding tials, Will the City radious Defualt to 1(the City Tile only) or will it stay at 2(the 9 tiles) AND what is the Closest Count, in squares from City center, that you can PLACE a new city to an existing Cities border???

2 What is the Maximum City Count under each form of goverment, and exactly what is the Penaties for going over that limit, If their is a Hard cap that canot be worked around Exept by diverting Masive resorces to keeping your 100 low pop cities in line, then you will STILL have problems with ICS

Drakenred


[This message has been edited by Drakenred (edited November 06, 2000).]